Ortofon Cadenza Black - Fritz Geiger club

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes I know it's a limited club. Just one question, what tracking force are you using?

I've been using 2.3-4g and whilst its extremely good, I still feel it's lacking something. I'm thinking 2.6g to mimic the tracking force needed for the MC ANNA?

Just a thought, any advice greatly accepted.

[Boyse6748]

A personal piece of advice but I would not go above 2.3g. I’m not understanding why you would need a heaver tracking force.

I’m not thinking this will improve matters.

Other adjustments need to be checked prior to more downforce to confirm if all is in alignment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RobbieGong]

A personal piece of advice but I would not go above 2.3g. I’m not understanding why you would need a heaver tracking force.

I’m not thinking this will improve matters.

Other adjustments need to be checked prior to more downforce to confirm if all is in alignment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1, I'm also surprised you've gone that high. You've gone from the original CB recommended tracking of 2.3g right up to 4g :eek:

Remember, it's been re-tipped with a different profile to the original Shibata so things are now different in regards to tracking force

I'm tracking at around 2.15 / 2.16 and it's spot on.

Here's Kilians response to me after I dropped the arm down on the record from a height and stressed the suspension, meaning i had to send it back.

When i got it back I asked him if I should still track around 2.2 which is what he had recommended when I first had the re-tip.

Hi Rob,

yes, or 2.15 gram. 2.1 is more or less the lowest figure for optimal tracking and I usually don't have to go above 2.35 with these carts.


Kind regards / met vriendelijke groet / mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Kilian Bakker

[Boyse6748]

+1, I'm also surprised you've gone that high. You've gone from the original CB recommended tracking of 2.3g right up to 4g :eek:

Remember, it's been re-tipped with a different profile to the original Shibata so things are now different in regards to tracking force

I'm tracking at around 2.15 / 2.16 and it's spot on.

Here's Kilians response to me after I dropped the arm down on the record from a height and stressed the suspension, meaning i had to send it back.

When i got it back I asked him if I should still track around 2.2 which is what he had recommended when I first had the re-tip.

Hi Rob,

yes, or 2.15 gram. 2.1 is more or less the lowest figure for optimal tracking and I usually don't have to go above 2.35 with these carts.


Kind regards / met vriendelijke groet / mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Kilian Bakker

Spot on Robbie[emoji106]

Something else is amiss. As you mention, I’m now concerned that the suspension may have been stressed playing at 4g....... I hope not!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ali Tait]

I think he means 2.3 to 2.4g.

[Boyse6748]

I think he means 2.3 to 2.4g.

I hope so!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RobbieGong]

I hope so!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah, so do I :lol:

[Boyse6748]

Anyway, if there is a miss understanding about the tracking force, my advice, for what it’s worth, would be to check VTA (SRA) and Azimuth to ensure all is as intended before increasing tracking force.

This is a reasonably expensive bit of kit and care is needed but you don’t me to mention that fact.

It might even be nice to know what arm / head shell is being used?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RobbieGong]

Anyway, if there is a miss understanding about the tracking force, my advice, for what it’s worth, would be to check VTA (SRA) and Azimuth to ensure all is as intended before increasing tracking force.

This is a reasonably expensive bit of kit and care is needed but you don’t me to mention that fact.

It might even be nice to know what arm / head shell is being used?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 you cant wing it with these sophisticated stylus profiles, said it til i'm tired :D

I've had extensive experience with these, three different Ortofon Shibta carts, 2M Black, Quintet Black, Cadenza Black and now the FGS tip which is same as the Ortofon Replicants.

ALL have required accurate set and a lot of attention in that regard, SRA/VTA overhang and Azimuth have to be bang on.

They then have a very narrow sweet-spot which you have to find otherwise forget it, you wont hear what they do and are capable of and will think, what the $££$&# is the fuss about!?!.

After paying mad attention to all parameters I've always finally dialled in that sweet-spot via careful on the fly vta, eventually bingo ! - happy days !

It's why I'll never use a tonearm without on the fly, for this reason/these carts I'm drawn to and really enjoy.

I'm seriously intrigued as to how you nail the sweet-spot otherwise, via tonearms that have vta adjustment slots ? or with anti-skate adjustment ? Either way, sounds like a bugger, not for me.

You have to have patience and an ear too whilst doing it, it can take a while and be fatiguing but when you do, find it, hear it's there it's :D music :D and more :D and more music and ............... and hence I'm still up when I should be in bed

* Btw, I've always found the above carts/ profiles nailed with a slightly tail down/negative rake AND when it's there/'in', the sound suddenly becomes calm, rather than noisy and tizzy, so listen, very carefully whilst adjusting - I should charge for this :lol:

[karma67]

its easy rob,i use a block of bronze between the tonearm mounting collar and underside of the tonearm bracket that the rest is fixed to. i then slip between feeler gauges and i can go up and down to my hearts content in finer tolerances than you 'on the fly' guys dream about :ner:

[RobbieGong]

its easy rob,i use a block of bronze between the tonearm mounting collar and underside of the tonearm bracket that the rest is fixed to. i then slip between feeler gauges and i can go up and down to my hearts content in finer tolerances than you 'on the fly' guys dream about :ner:

Nice, sounds like you're living the dream there Jamie :lol:

[karma67]

oh yes,im rock and roll through and through :lol:

[karma67]

regarding the op,best advice i can give is check and re check all you settings,the fg tip is not a 5 minute set up. get all the base settings dead right and then fine tune the vta and tracking weight,they both influence each other.pick a female vocal for azimuth,fine tune untill the voice shrinks and is dead center.

[Wakefield Turntables]

OK,

I've been tracking at 2.2g - 2.4g, not 4g!!!!!!!! The only think I track at 4g are some SPU and a few cheap MM's.

I'm fully aware of the "sweet spot" and the difficulty in setting up these carts.

The cart should be fairly easy to set up due to fixed head geometry on the SME V. My failure I think comes from the VTA. I'm going to increase the tonearm height and then slowly lower until we get the sweet spot.

I originally thought the FGS would have a closer specification to the ANNA cartridge diamond and hence my thought's about using 2.6g. I've emailed Kilian and the advice I've been given if different to what's been quoted on this thread. I'll mail the response later when I've put the daughter to bed.

The rake angle is something that needs to be correctly set up. So I think I've two variables that arn't right, VTA and rake angle, which are probably the most important. Tracking force , antiskate, tonearm geometry are all pretty much ok. I do remember systematically going though every tonearm variable 8 years ago when I set up the original
CB. So, I'm buying a USB microscope to get the rake angle as good as I can. Meanwhile I'll play with the VTA and build up those 50 hours of burn in.

[RobbieGong]

Yep, as I say, after all parameters have been set spot on, I've always then found the sweet-spot, by carefully dialing-in via vta.

Takes patience but yeah, sounds like you're on it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Kilian's reply.

"The Gyger S is quite similar to the Shibata with a tip radius of 6/48 µm. It is not as sensitive as the Shibata to VTA settings but nontheless we always recommend to try different settings as each tonearm/cart combo requires a different setup.

As with any tip, optimal azimuth is paramount.


For VTF with your cart, I'd recommend 2.25 - 2.35 gram, typically 2.3 but again that does depend on the arm as well. Therefor, 2.2 - 2.4 might be a range to explore.

As to VTA; I'd start with the headshell parallel to the record but many Cadenza users prefer a VTA where the arm slopes down to the back (slightly).



Loading also plays a huge role in all of this; Ortofon recommends 10 Ohm, I'd say that somewhere between 50 and 100 Ohm would be a good starting point (although 10-30 Ohm will actually work with this cart, slightly higher loading gives a more engaging preformance).


Yes, a run-in time of approx. 50 hours is normal.



This is a very critical cart but some extra fine-tuning can be rather rewarding. "

[RobbieGong]

All makes sense and as he mentions, does depend on arm too.

I'm tracking somewhere between 2.16 and 2.18 if I remember correctly, defo just under 2.2 and tracking beautifully.

I'm glad he's confirmed the tail down/negative rake I've experienced with all my Shibatas and the FGS.

I have an integrated amp so no messing/fiddling with loading to worry about - thankfully.

Also glad he's pointed out that these types of carts/stylus profiles are critical in terms of set up, which I've always expressed.

All the best with it Andy.

I will add this - Dont expect romance, overt excitement, bundles of cosyness as you fine tune / seek the sweetspot. This cart / stylus is all about what is in the groove - no 'additives', sweeteners or enhancers.

It is neutral/cool in character. It majors on accuracy as in, pulls a lot of recorded info from the grooves due to its long thin profile, allowing it to track deep into the groove, coupled with it's large contact patch area, tracing the groove walls means not only does it pull loads of recorded info but gets those very high frequencies too, if they are there, so on some tracks it can sound bright, which it isnt, it will give you whats there, warts an all. Good recordings sound just that, bad ones are portrayed as they are.

It gives you the recorded music not a glossed, altered, warmed or romanticised portrayal of it. It reveals the individual characteristics of each recording.

In a nutshell, it's a true hi-fidelity transducer :)

[bob4333]

There's some good stuff here and much of what has been written in this thread applies to all cartridges. Some carts give more rewarding results than others but the fundamental principles are the same. It's all about geometry and relationships.

Sadly too many people either "don't get it", or just give up because it's too much hassle. They don't know what's there to be had and they'll miss the "heart" of what vinyl has to offer.

Never was this brought home to me more than getting a result from my Cadenza Bronze, a pricey cart (for me) that comes across as fairly mediocre unless you take note of what's written above and take the time to get it right. I'd had some good carts before and found it perhaps a little easier to get a satisfying result from. On reflection I could probably have done better. This was more demanding.

Fourth time in my arm and I did get it right by persevering with it's set up - up to this point I was ready to sell it on as just another expensive failed venture. I can't see me parting with it now.

[karma67]

imo azimuth is more important than vta,thats not to say vta isn't by the way. also having a fixed headshell is no guarantee of perfect azimuth,you are relying on the diamond being perfectly mounted in relation to the cartridge body and also the tonearm board being dead level and true to the turntable platter.
one of the reasons i love the ortofon's built in azimuth adjustment on some of their cartridges,i think the cadenza has this.

[bob4333]

I can echo the importance of azimuth and yes, the Cadenza has a short "ridge" on it's top plate meaning the cart can rock a degree or two from side to side. This forces you to take notice. The thing that made the big difference was the acquisition of an admittedly cheap azimuth gauge (£3?).

After setting the stylus / cantilever azimuth using a mirror I rechecked it with the gauge and boy, was it out! A bit of careful adjustment and what a difference. Small tweaks bring big changes.

[RobbieGong]

All set up parameters are very important, especially with the more sophisticated line contact profiles like the Shibatas and the FGS.

The FGS is cut to actually mimic the record cutting lathe.....

I've copied over a few things from Galen Carol audio, Cartridge alignment page, as it's not only accurate, the articulation is also better than mine :)

Vertical Tracking Force (VTF)
etting tracking force is the very first step in setting up a cartridge (though it will be repeated later to fine tune). The cartridge manufacturer will recommend a range (e.g. 1.75g - 2.0g) that is appropriate for their design. Too little tracking force and the stylus will not seat properly in the groove, too much tracking force and you'll overload the internal suspension, and both resulting in a loss of performance. Interestingly, too little tracking is more likely to increase wear than a setting which is slightly too high.

More than just applying force to seat the stylus in the groove, the correct tracking force aligns the internal generator assembly. For a finely tuned rig, it is important to experiment within the manufacturers recommended range to find the precise point that gives the best sound

Overhang: As the stylus tracks across the record, it is important that the stylus remain tangent to the groove. Setting overhang we are aligning the cartridge to follow that ideal arc across the record. In a radial tracking tonearm, there are only a couple of points when it actually is tangent (null points). Without getting overly bogged down in technicalities, there are at least a couple of theories about where the null points should be, and so some gauges are slightly different than others depending on which the manufacturer thinks is best.
To set overhang, you'll need an alignment gauge. There are a number of overhang gauges available through the years (DB Systems, Denessen Soundtractor, Mobile Fidelity Geodisc, to name a few). People usually like the one they've used before, but even the simple template provided with your turntable or tonearm are useable.

VTA or SRA: VTA is an abbreviation for vertical tracking angle, SRA stands for stylus rake angle. The two terms (while not exactly the same, technically speaking) are often used interchangeably to describe the relative angle of the stylus to the groove. (Though I'd say SRA is the more accurate term, most audiophiles are more familiar with VTA, so I'll stick with it here). This angle is normally adjusted by raising or lowering the back of the tonearm (although shims can be used between the headshell and cartridge).

Correct VTA/SRA is achieved when the angle of the playback stylus matches that of the cutting stylus used to make the original master lacquer. Because the angle of the record lathe cutter head (normally specified as twenty degrees, plus or minus five degrees) varies to some degree from manufacturer to manufacturer, we must adjust our VTA to achieve optimum playback results. Other variables such as record thickness, stylus shape and variations in cartridge construction, also make VTA adjustment necessary.

Due to stylus shape and size, some cartridges will be more sensitive to VTA than others. Generally, the more radical the stylus cut, the more sensitive to proper adjustment of VTA. All cartridges however, will benefit, at least to a degree, from proper VTA alignment.

Azimuth is also on the page, but described in a lot of detail land in a way that makes setting it an awful lot of hassle, in my opinion of course. Personally I use my eyes, looking front at the cartridge to see the bottom of the cart body is parallel to the record surface. It says this isnt exactly right and goes into a lot about dedicated cartridge analysers, Fozgometer and channel testing. phase talk etc etc
As well as careful eyeballing, i use on of those see through, acrylic plastic, blocks, with the grid lines on. Easy to use and cheap as chips. I also use one of the tiny, headshell, spirit levels - nothings perfect but these things will defo get you there without the science.

Zenith: Aligning the stylus within the groove in the horizontal plane dials in zenith. Looking down on the cartridge from above, zenith is changed by rotating the cartridge (as if around a clock face). Of course there is only a very small amount of adjustment possible on most arms, just the play in the mounting screws.

Zenith is best adjusted using test equipment, but one can (assuming the stylus is correctly mounted to the cantilever) also adjust by eye using an overhang gauge with an alignment grid. Simply sight down the cantilever from the front, aligning it with the line directly below it on the gauge.

Anti-skate, my guess is we all pretty much know the usual rule with this one ie: start approximately about the same as the cartridge manufacturers, recommended tracking force ie: 2g = 2 on your antiskate and so....


Summary:
It would be difficult to overstress the importance of proper cartridge alignment. If you expect to get all the performance promised by your costly investment in analog, these adjustments simply must be made. So please take the time to insure that your arm/cartridge combination is properly set-up

[karma67]

here's another which is excellent reading.

https://walkeraudio.com/lloyd-walker-on-fine-tuning-your-turntable-2/

[Wakefield Turntables]

WOW o WOW what an amazing last couple of posts. Thanks guys, however I have a cunning plan. I've decided I've had enough of buggering about. I'll be getting a Fozgometer. This should make VTA alignment a piece of pi$$. I've got Dr. Feickhart protractor and this has proven to be very useful, I've now got null point alignment setup bang on according to Feickhart. I've put out an APB to forum subscribers and trade dealers to see if they can get me a cheap Fozgometer. I'll give this a few days and then I'll pull the trigger on ebay. I'll be buggering about with loading plugs in the back of the phonostage to see how that effects what I'm hearing.

[Wakefield Turntables]

10 days of trial and error and I think we have a winner. After messing around with the VTA at 0.5mm increments two things happen.
With the tonearm at 14mm parallel height from the record surface we have raised surface noise but amazing slam, attack, forensic detail retrieval, all that I remember when I first got the CB all those years ago and this is with the tonearm's rear end raised. With the tonearm at 15mm parallel height from the record surface we have lowered surface noise but a drop in slam, attack, aggression, soundstage width and to a slightly lesser extent, detail retrieval, again tonearm arse end is pretty far back. I've played around with -ve rake angle and I think I've got it as good as I can. So overall, much happier.

[RobbieGong]

Hows it going Andy ??

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Rob see post #24 I've not played around with the CB-FGS for a few days I'm back on the valve system but overall I'm happy with what I've got. The FGS is a step up from the original CB so overall its a winner.

[bob4333]

Did you completely give up on the Fozgometer or is it something you're likely to return to? You seemed quite keen in post #23.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Did you completely give up on the Fozgometer or is it something you're likely to return to? You seemed quite keen in post #23.

No, I'm still very keen and it would prove a useful tool for my SME 3012 and 3009 which have removable headshells to get transverse alignment sorted but I also own a SME V and SME V-12 where a Fozgo would be pointless. I've heard of other methods like a stereo stethoscope and Feickharts (which I own).

[RobbieGong]

Hi Rob see post #24 I've not played around with the CB-FGS for a few days I'm back on the valve system but overall I'm happy with what I've got. The FGS is a step up from the original CB so overall its a winner.

Great, I'd seem post #24. I was just asking how things were going post that ;) glad you're happy :thumbsup:

[RobbieGong]

Hey Andy,

Hows it going with your Fritz Gygered Cadenza B ??

I managed to dial mine in again a few days ago after the usual long fatiguing efforts to set it up properly.

I've had two days of long extended sessions since, and can honestly say that in my opinion it has everything, just excellent !

I pray it stays locked in for as long as possible.......

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm alright Rob, thanks for asking, yourself? I've hardly listened to the cart TBH, I've been buggering about with Idlers and vintage MM carts. I finally settled on the Cadena Blacks FGS settings and it's stayed in place since on my SME V/1210 combo. I honestly think it probably needs another 25-40 hours before things loosen up a little. I think I've had less than 20 hours on it so far, yes I know, a travesty. I have a day off tomorrow so I might add a couple of hours. I should have really kept a tally on "burn-in" hours. I'll have a listen tomorrow and get back to this thread.

[RobbieGong]

I'm good thanks Andy, been off work so feel much more 'alive' chillin, listenin' tunes, enjoying system etc - back on Weds hey ho.

Again, nailed mine slightly tail down, not an exaggerated tail down though.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep mine's sitting slightly tail down, in fact I have it sitting in exactly the same position before it was reworked by Killian. I had the bright idea of drawing a very faint pencil mark on the SME V for just such an occasion. My main problem was getting the vertical height of the tonearm, I rather stupidly moved it. I could have saved myself a lot of messing around and stress if I'd just left the bloody thing in place. :doh:

[RobbieGong]

Yep mine's sitting slightly tail down, in fact I have it sitting in exactly the same position before it was reworked by Killian. I had the bright idea of drawing a very faint pencil mark on the SME V for just such an occasion. My main problem was getting the vertical height of the tonearm, I rather stupidly moved it. I could have saved myself a lot of messing around and stress if I'd just left the bloody thing in place. :doh:

Yep, Make sure azimuth is spot on too Andy - place the needle on the record with one of those tiny 'weightless' spirit levels on top of the flat of the headshell and take a look.

Mine was out, which I corrected and then continued with vta dial in.......