View Full Version : Closing The Curtains?
My room is 29 feet long with a window and door at either end, the speakers are positioned about 8 feet in to the room ('firing' down the length) and I listen from about 8 feet into the room from the other direction.
I noticed some time ago that closing the curtains on the window behind me seemed to increase sound quality quite dramatically. Depth of stereo image improved, a slight shoutiness disappeared and the sound seemed to become warmer and more three dimensional. Looking back I always seem to have been happy with the sound in the winter (when it was dark out when I'd start listening) and dissatisfied in the summer months when it was light and the curtains were open.
I inherited the curtains with the house, they were custom made and they are thermally lined (as the previous owners had not fitted double-glazing) so they are quite thick.
Okay, so no surprises there, a large window is a highly reflective surface, directly opposite the speakers, and it is going to have an audible effect.
However during the bright sunny days we have had this year I have not been closing the curtain fully when listening but leaving about a six inch gap as it seemed a shame to block out the sunshine entirely as it is pretty rare even in the summer, especially in this part of the world. But I have noticed that even leaving this six inch gap still has a deleterious effect on sound quality and going from the six inch gap to closing the curtains completely still seems to give the same improvement in the sound quality as it does when going from fully open to fully closed.
I'm not sure how this can be as with the small gap only about one sixth of the window is 'visible' to the sound waves and I would not have thought this would be enough to degrade the sound. I'm considering that it could be some sort of placebo effect. Would such a reduced area of glass still have an audible effect? Anyone got any thoughts?
Audio Al
07-06-2020, 10:41
You reduce the reflective surface with the curtains closed = better sound :)
You reduce the reflective surface with the curtains closed = better sound :)
Right but what about when the reflective surface is only small, with the curtains 80% closed? I still hear that as having the same bad effect. It just seems unlikely to me.
hifi_dave
07-06-2020, 11:44
Well, you've just proved it can.
Audio Al
07-06-2020, 12:19
Open curtains when not listening , Fully closed curtains when listening = bliss :D
Well, you've just proved it can.
Well like I said I'm not convinced that it's not just all in my mind. Obviously closing them fully does make a real difference but with them 80% shut it is just a small amount of glass that is visible so I'd have thought that would be as good as having them fully closed.
But if it not all in my mind then I think I should probably start looking at some passive room treatments as having even a little reflective surface seems to make a surprising difference.
hifi_dave
07-06-2020, 13:49
Biggest improvement you can do with your system is room treatment. I've heard some fabulous systems sound absolute pants in an untreated room.
It's a complex thing though, I'd need to get a mic and software and work out what the hell is going on first.
Pigmy Pony
07-06-2020, 17:02
Maybe you're just unlucky that the worst of the reflected sound focuses on your seating position. Perhaps you could try moving your chair a bit. And if this doesn't work you could try experimenting with hats. Start with a pork pie and work your way up to a sombrero.
I noticed years ago that the sound changed quite a bit when I wore a cricket umpire's hat. I couldn't decide if it was better or just different, so in the end I heeded Mrs. P's worried look and gave it up :(
I don't think it's your imagination at all.
I have blackout shades in my listening room. I discovered pretty quickly that I can change the treble balance in my room by raising or lowering the shades by different amounts. My listening room is moderately treated, but the amount that the shades are open/closed still has a major effect on the treble response.
It has always been recommended that speakers should be positioned at the 'live' end of the room and the listening position be at the 'dead' end.
My listening room is not unlike yours: 33' long with full width and height patio doors at the speaker end, and a full width, half height window behind me. I have to say I haven't noticed much difference if the curtains behind me are closed or not: will have to do some experimentation and report back.
I don't think it's your imagination at all.
I have blackout shades in my listening room. I discovered pretty quickly that I can change the treble balance in my room by raising or lowering the shades by different amounts. My listening room is moderately treated, but the amount that the shades are open/closed still has a major effect on the treble response.
I was hoping there would be someone else who has experimented and found the same thing I did! Thanks. Think I will order a USB mic and do some measuring then.
It has always been recommended that speakers should be positioned at the 'live' end of the room and the listening position be at the 'dead' end.
My listening room is not unlike yours: 33' long with full width and height patio doors at the speaker end, and a full width, half height window behind me. I have to say I haven't noticed much difference if the curtains behind me are closed or not: will have to do some experimentation and report back.
That is basically how my room is laid out, dead end with the big padded sofas, live end with just the system. Although the live end has become a little cluttered over time but not with anything absorbent. Try with your curtains and see what happens. Although I suppose it will depend on how thick the curtains are.
I was hoping there would be someone else who has experimented and found the same thing I did! Thanks. Think I will order a USB mic and do some measuring then.
You're welcome!
I use this very affordable mic with my smartphone for measurements.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-imm-6-calibrated-measurement-microphone-for-tablets-iphone-ipad-and-android--390-810
I do realize that shipping to the UK will make it less of a bargain though.
That is cheap, it's available in the UK but it's £38.99
Is it just with the curtains open slightly, the sound waves can get to the glass (even though the area is small) and make the whole panel vibrate in sympathy?
Is it just with the curtains open slightly, the sound waves can get to the glass (even though the area is small) and make the whole panel vibrate in sympathy?
I was think about that and you may well be right. Anyway it has spurred me on to try some room treatment. I did a big clear up of the whole areas round by that window so what was a cluttered area with a big potted plant is now completely barren and I can hear the difference with that too.
The other corner at the same end of the room where the front door is has always been a bit reverberant and I've thought about doing something with that a few times. I'm going to order some acoustic slab things and stick them to the door and wall in that corner, and the other corner where the plant was is going to get some rockwool slabs.
Will do a proper thread on it when it all arrives.
Thinking on, I've got some rolls of loft insulation somewhere that I bought and never got round to putting in. I might try one of them in the corner. They're pretty big. Have to see if I can find them.
walpurgis
08-06-2020, 09:39
Thinking on, I've got some rolls of loft insulation somewhere that I bought and never got round to putting in. I might try one of them in the corner. They're pretty big. Have to see if I can find them.
One or two of those will definitely alter the room acoustics. It may not change the bass much though.
Found it. Wound it up into a tight roll and secured with duct tape. It's about 2 feet in diameter, should do the job. Doesn't need to do anything with the bass as there's no issue there, it's damping from mid and high reflections that I'm after.
https://i.imgur.com/wD7C8l4.jpg
walpurgis
08-06-2020, 10:04
If you've got a couple, stack them and take most of the silver stuff off (I assume that's gaffer tape?). You can disguise them with a throw or similar.
It's like a sort of foil. Might be mylar. I quite like it, don't want to take that off! Anyway I don't own anything that could even be loosely described as a 'throw'.
I don't think I've got another one. If I do I don't know where that is. That's got to have some damping effect as is though, how can it not?
Since you feel you don't have any bass issues I would remove the loft insulation from behind your speakers when the rockwool panels are in place and see how it sounds.
The big roll of insulation is in the corner of the wall the speakers face, not the one behind them. There's nothing behind the speakers except the equipment rack and that's about 8 feet back from them.
I don't think the insulation roll is big enough or thick enough to act as a bass trap. I've seen bass traps in studios and they are massive and very dense. The purpose of the insulation roll is just to stop that corner from 'ringing' a bit. It's funny how the big plant that used to be there must have been doing that. It never occurred to me until I removed it the other week and noticed the difference.
I've read about people using plants as room treatment before and thought 'Yeah, right.'
Always on a learning curve in this game.
put the acoustic panels up on the door and the section of blank wall between the window and the door - the wall behind the listening position that is.
They cover pretty much the whole door. I stuck them up with duct tape, just a lash up for proof of concept.
So what was the result?
Well the panels seem to be made of the only material in the world that duct tape doesn't stick to very well. As a result they all, one by one, gradually fell off whilst I was listening. On the plus side this did mean that I was able to asses the sound changes as the room treatment was gradually removed, and without leaving my seat. Excellent!
Star of the show is the big roll of loft insulation in the corner. Putting that there has got me back to where I was when the big plant was there. Amazing what a difference it makes, helps with the bass too. Sounds more balanced with the rest of the frequency spectrum and also a bit more presence to it. Those mid and top reflections that were bugging me are gone. Would be even better if I had a few more rolls stacked on top, will have to check if I have anymore of them but I don't think I do.
Covering the door, which is a big, completely flat surface also made a difference but more subtle. Nevertheless I will be sorting out some suitable glue and putting the panels back on it permanently.
I'd recommend looking at treatments like this for the corners and walls behind the listening position if you haven't already, it does make a tangible improvement.
I'd recommend looking at treatments like this for the corners and walls behind the listening position if you haven't already, it does make a tangible improvement.
I'd be looking at divorce if I tried any of that malarkey. Fortunately my amp has tone controls.
I'd be looking at divorce if I tried any of that malarkey. Fortunately my amp has tone controls.
Don't think tone controls exactly does what good r/t does. Still if your happy your happy. And you get to keep the wife, always a trade of I suppose.
I'd be looking at divorce if I tried any of that malarkey. Fortunately my amp has tone controls.
You've got a big house, you can't tell me you don't have at least one room you could do what you wanted in?
I've got a 16 band equaliser I could put in circuit if I wanted to, but you can't fix issues like this by twiddling yer knobs.
Anyway I reckon if I did have WAF issues I could get round it. I'd camouflage the roll of insulation as a mini Olmec head. Bit of cardboard and spray paint, no problem. Tell her I found it in a breaker's yard and it's 2000 years old.
So closing the curtains has lifted a veil!
Well you have already found the solution - restore (or replace) the 'big' potted plant. Aesthetically easier on the eye than a roll of loft insulation.
I accidentally killed it whilst pruning it back, that's why it's gone. I might get another one in time.
Sherwood
11-06-2020, 18:43
It is possible to make DIY panels that look OK. I used acoustic 100mm rockwool to make panels for behind my speakers and behind my listening chair. A simple stencil and some fabric dye helped to blend them into the decor (a little).
278602786127862
You've got a big house, you can't tell me you don't have at least one room you could do what you wanted in?
Yes, the top room. But that doesn't need any treatment, as I listen near-field. I could move the main system up there I guess, but it's three flights of stairs, so bugger that for a game of soldiers.
It is possible to make DIY panels that look OK. I used acoustic 100mm rockwool to make panels for behind my speakers and behind my listening chair. A simple stencil and some fabric dye helped to blend them into the decor (a little).
278602786127862
Nice!
I have to say that if I was doing my room treatments over today, I would be very tempted to just order the ready made options available from GIK.
https://www.gikacoustics.com
I have not tried any of their products, but their prices aren't much more than what I payed for just raw materials.
Discopants
17-06-2020, 20:51
Do you also have no carpets or rugs in that room Macca ? Nice big rug might also help.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Do you also have no carpets or rugs in that room Macca ? Nice big rug might also help.
It'd tie the room together, too.
It'd tie the room together, too.
It would also sound better if one drank a 'White Russian'.
Do you also have no carpets or rugs in that room Macca ? Nice big rug might also help.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No, the room has wall to wall carpet with thick underlay and there's two large rugs on top of that. Floor bounce isn't an issue.
Hi Martin,
Interesting observations, which experience allows me to concur with, and so have no real reason to believe that you're imagining the effect. Unfortunately your room is a weird shape, and which isn't conducive to 'ideal' speaker placement.
However, the issue would likely be solved if you altered the layout of your system and speakers, and opted instead for near-field listening, by placing your speakers in front of the settee facing the TV wall, which in my educated opinion would result in a better balance of compromises [what it's ultimately always about with any system], for various reasons, not just the subsequent lack of window influence, especially when employing the use of speakers that comfortably perform well with near-field placement, such as....
....Big TANNOY DCs!;)
Then you'd be able to open the curtains on both sides of the room, and not be forced to sit in a dungeon!!:eyebrows:
In that respect, have you spoken recently with Sean? I know there's the whole CV thing going on, but it's ridiculous how long you've allowed that matter to drag on [as you could've chased him up and been much more proactive about it], regardless of how happy you are with the JM Labs. It's about getting jobs DONE and DUSTED!:ner:
If it had been me, I can assure you that those Tannoys would've been gracing my room long before now...... And if they had done in your case, they'd have provided a valuable option for you to assess now in the context of your system. Anyways... Just my two cents worth!:cool:
Marco.
:wave::wave:
:popcorn:
Have you forgotten about this thread?
;)
Marco.
Hi Martin,
Interesting observations, which experience allows me to concur with, and so have no real reason to believe that you're imagining the effect. Unfortunately your room is a weird shape, and which isn't conducive to 'ideal' speaker placement.
However, the issue would likely be solved if you altered the layout of your system and speakers, and opted instead for near-field listening, by placing your speakers in front of the settee facing the TV wall, which in my educated opinion would result in a better balance of compromises [what it's ultimately always about with any system], for various reasons, not just the subsequent lack of window influence, especially when employing the use of speakers that comfortably perform well with near-field placement, such as....
....Big TANNOY DCs!;)
Then you'd be able to open the curtains on both sides of the room, and not be forced to sit in a dungeon!!:eyebrows:
In that respect, have you spoken recently with Sean? I know there's the whole CV thing going on, but it's ridiculous how long you've allowed that matter to drag on [as you could've chased him up and been much more proactive about it], regardless of how happy you are with the JM Labs. It's about getting jobs DONE and DUSTED!:ner:
If it had been me, I can assure you that those Tannoys would've been gracing my room long before now...... And if they had done in your case, they'd have provided a valuable option for you to assess now in the context of your system. Anyways... Just my two cents worth!:cool:
Marco.
My room isn't a weird shape, it's a simple rectangle, and if it were a bit wider it would actually be golden ratio. I didn't pick that house to buy by accident!
Having it set up like I do means I can have both the speakers and the listening position respectively one fifth or one third into the room from their respective ends. Some say one is better than the other of course but either are pretty much optimal. Having plenty of space behind the speakers and the listener gives the best illusion of image depth.
For that reason I'll almost certainly set the Tannoys up the same way although I suspect they would work fine either way round. The current speakers won't.
As far as the curtains are concerned, even without the effect on sound quality, I prefer to listen to music in very low light. It just sounds better. So it's no hardship having them fully closed.
And yes I keep meaning to chase up Sean but I keep meaning to do a lot of things. If I was unhappy with the JM Labs I'd certainly have chased him up a bit more. But even after several years with them they still hit the spot. I can only think of three speakers I have ever heard that are better than them in every respect - Linkwitz lx521, JBL 4365 and the Diapason Dynamis. The first one you can't buy and the other two I can't afford. :)
My room isn't a weird shape, it's a simple rectangle, and if it were a bit wider it would actually be golden ratio. I didn't pick that house to buy by accident!
Lol, with the back of a big staircase taking up significant space, right in your field of vision, and with the room also being so long and narrow? Sorry, no offence, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "weird shape", or perhaps more accurately, a weird room layout.
'Golden ratios' I care not a jot about.
If I were choosing a notionally 'ideal' room for a hi-fi system, it would first of all have to be a bright and airy [well-heated when necessary], comfortable living space, of average size [as when it comes to rooms, I don't sign up to the notion of bigger is always best], and have solid walls and floor, and in terms of shape, preferably be full of different angles, in order to help break up reflections, then after that would come how easy it would be to install a dedicated mains supply for the electronics!:)
Having it set up like I do means I can have both the speakers and the listening position respectively one fifth or one third into the room from their respective ends. Some say one is better than the other of course but either are pretty much optimal. Having plenty of space behind the speakers and the listener gives the best illusion of image depth.
For that reason I'll almost certainly set the Tannoys up the same way although I suspect they would work fine either way round. The current speakers won't.
In terms of the former, it's your house and room, but if it were me, I'd have things set up completely differently.
As far as the latter goes, you're right. I'm almost certain though (and would take a bet on it) that, as much as I like the JM Labs, I'd prefer listening to the Tannoys, near-field, set-up on either side of your TV (or something similar based on the layout there). But it's what you'd prefer that counts. However, in order to make a meaningful judgement on that, you'd have to hear your system on the end of the Tannoys in question, situated as discussed - but you obviously lack any real motivation to do it.
As far as the curtains are concerned, even without the effect on sound quality, I prefer to listen to music in very low light. It just sounds better. So it's no hardship having them fully closed.
Yes, providing that living comfortably in your room, and being happy, revolves COMPLETELY around how your system sounds!
We're all different, but I simply wouldn't be happy or comfortable sitting for hours listening to music in a dingy/darkened room, just because my system sounded better that way. TBH, I rarely listen to music inside, daytime during the summer months, as I'm usually too busy outside in the fresh air!
Or often listening to choons piped out into the garden... Perhaps at night (when it's naturally dark anyway) I'll listen to music indoors then - that is if it isn't too warm and stuffy. In my experience, overly-warm rooms make for a poor sound, just as much as ones that are too brightly lit.
And yes I keep meaning to chase up Sean but I keep meaning to do a lot of things.
I know, but that's you: 'Captain of Procrastination'! :D;)
We're just so different in that respect, mate. I'm more of a doer than a continual 'put-it-off-er'. I'd have been DYING to hear what those Tannoys sounded like, and so would've been kicking Sean's ass to get them done, regardless if the sound of the JM Labs gave me a permanent boner!!:eyebrows:
Anyway, you know that I'm only trying to help and have your best interests at heart.
Marco.
Interesting comments. I found the only drawback to your system was the tiny room it is in. Fine at low levels but turn it up and you get a lot of bounce off the back wall and the ceiling. That would drive me nuts over time and I like to have a bit of volume. Not silly levels but enough to get the physical aspect of the music. That's why I never use headphones.
I rarely listen to music in the daytime, usually I listen between 1800 and 2200. It's only for a few months when it is still light at those hours. I don't have a garden and there's no parks nearby so no-where pleasant to spend time outside. Plus when I am listening to music I'm rarely doing anything else other than listen. Computers are off. I don't do background music. I also value good stereo imaging which I know is not a priority for you. Actually not a top priority for me either but it is desirable to me. Room treatment helps a lot with that.
The room is 12 feet wide so not that narrow although a couple of extra feet would be desirable. The staircase is open frame and entirely behind the speakers. Not 100% ideal I grant you but it's impact is as minimal as it can be. Floor is concrete, walls are all brick, no plasterboard to flap about.
None of these things are by accident, they are all the result of carefully made choices from experience learned with setting up systems in 9 different houses before settling in this one. I've also experimented with having the speakers both down and across the room, I much prefer firing down for large speakers.
I bought the house precisely because I wanted a room where I could have large speakers firing down the length of the room with plenty of space behind them as based on extensive prior experience I consider that to be optimal. I was looking for two years before finding one that ticked all the boxes (and that I could afford on my meagre salary at the time).
And the large room volume means I never have to worry about boomy bass regardless of the design of speaker. Even big transmission lines work fine.
The point being it is all tailored for 'me', intended to achieve what I personally want. It isn't like I have not considered or tried what you are suggesting, I have, it just doesn't work for me.
Regarding electrics I do have a sparky coming in at some point to do a re-wire so I might look at doing something there assuming it won't involve a whole load of extra issues. As you know I'm highly sceptical of the idea that mains treatment is in any way worthwhile, but if I can do some en passant as it were then I probably will.
Interesting comments. I found the only drawback to your system was the tiny room it is in. Fine at low levels but turn it up and you get a lot of bounce off the back wall and the ceiling. That would drive me nuts over time and I like to have a bit of volume. Not silly levels but enough to get the physical aspect of the music. That's why I never use headphones.
Yeah, sure. As I've said, everything's a compromise and obviously if you listen to music loudly enough in a small room with huge speakers, the room will eventually become the limitation. However, it depends on how loud you listen and to what kind of music, as certain kinds of music set off room effects more than others. For the majority of music I listen to, and the levels I play it at, there are no issues (for me), and of course with such big speakers in a small room, you don't have to play it loud to get the "physical" aspect to the music you're referring to!
As you know, I've heard large Tannoy DCs in many different rooms, big and small, including taking mine down to Scalford, where they were used in a room 5 times the size of mine, and they've always sounded best in smaller rooms, thus suit near-field listening, and which is why I've got that set up, and why it works so well in the context of my system. Nothing's ever perfect, but I just prefer the sound of large dual-concentrics, particularly how, to my ears, they get the midrange so right with the 'point source' thing, and you feel that you're listening to a cohesive piece of music, rather than sounds firing at you from different areas, which is my problem with any floor-standing designs, featuring the use of multiple drivers.
I rarely listen to music in the daytime, usually I listen between 1800 and 2200. It's only for a few months when it is still light at those hours.
What about if the 'new normal' means you'll be working more from home?;)
I don't have a garden and there's no parks nearby so no-where pleasant to spend time outside.
I know, but again that's where we're so different, as both of those would be a big priority for me in choosing where to live, as I couldn't function without a pleasant outdoor space to 'retreat' to when the weather was nice or the mood took me. Obviously being cooped up in the house all the time, even when the weather is gorgeous doesn't bother you, but it would get me down, Del too. At the end of the day, home hi-fi is only a small part of my life - I derive greater pleasure from other things and hobbies I have.
Plus when I am listening to music I'm rarely doing anything else other than listen. Computers are off. I don't do background music. I also value good stereo imaging which I know is not a priority for you. Actually not a top priority for me either but it is desirable to me. Room treatment helps a lot with that.
Sure, it's not a priority for me, but my system does it adequately well enough, for me, in the room it's in. Tannoy DCs aren't exactly lacking in the stereo imaging department, although electrostatics they are not. But yes, there are other things in reference to sonic presentation that I value more.
The staircase is open frame and entirely behind the speakers. Not 100% ideal I grant you but it's impact is as minimal as it can be.
Yup, but you see if I'd seen the back of an ugly staircase blocking my view of the room (in my line of vision like that), it'd have killed the deal and no way would I have put a system in there. TBH, I've never seen that before and it's a rather bizarre arrangement. So again, what might not bother you, would bother me - and vice versa.
I bought the house precisely because I wanted a room where I could have large speakers firing down the length of the room with plenty of space behind them as based on extensive prior experience I consider that to be optimal. I was looking for two years before finding one that ticked all the boxes (and that I could afford on my meagre salary at the time).
And the large room volume means I never have to worry about boomy bass regardless of the design of speaker. Even big transmission lines work fine.
And that's cool. It wouldn't be for me, but it's what works for you that matters:)
The point being it is all tailored for 'me', intended to achieve what I personally want. It isn't like I have not considered or tried what you are suggesting, I have, it just doesn't work for me.
I get that, but the point is that, as far as I know, you've never heard big Tannoy DCs in your room, or listened to them near-field there, so you simply don't know if you'd like it or not, or even prefer it in some ways to your normal choice of set up. So when you *eventually* get your Tannoys back from Sean (and hopefully it'll be before we're collecting our pensions:ner: ) it'll be interesting to try it and see what you think, and I'd like to hear it, too!
Regarding electrics I do have a sparky coming in at some point to do a re-wire so I might look at doing something there assuming it won't involve a whole load of extra issues. As you know I'm highly sceptical of the idea that mains treatment is in any way worthwhile, but if I can do some en passant as it were then I probably will.
Good stuff, keep me posted on that because I can give you some tips on how he could optimise things, at minimal cost, safely, and in ways that I'd be very confident would improve the sound of your system:cool:
Marco.
I think it would be helpful Martin, if we could see some photos of your listening room and the current arrangement of speakers and sofa etc.
I think it would be helpful Martin, if we could see some photos of your listening room and the current arrangement of speakers and sofa etc.
I'll post some up later on.
No comment on my last post?:)
Marco.
Got to do some work! Lunch is over.
Lol - you're too strict on yourself!:D
Marco.
I think it would be helpful Martin, if we could see some photos of your listening room and the current arrangement of speakers and sofa etc.
I know I m jumping on the bandwagon but, as your mate my say..... :worthless:
Here's a snap from the listening end:
https://i.imgur.com/G429FyP.jpg
from the speaker end:
https://i.imgur.com/tClEKEO.jpg
walpurgis
19-06-2020, 18:14
Proper mancave that! :)
There's not usually that many wires on the floor, that's just because I'm working at home and none of the company kit is wireless.
Yeah, cozy, Sweeney again ?. You know what Reagan would say about the curtains........ SHUT IT.
Yeah, cozy, Sweeney again ?. You know what Reagan would say about the curtains........ SHUT IT.
Proper telly though isn't it?
Off to get some booze in now. It's Friday night and its the law. Then a couple of hours of loud rock n roll music.
Does anyone agree with 'the back of a big staircase taking up significant space, right in your field of vision,' ?
I just don't get that. You can see the stairs but they're hardly intrusive. In 1972 that was a feature!
https://i.imgur.com/G429FyP.jpg
Proper telly though isn't it?
Off to get some booze in now. It's Friday night and its the law. Then a couple of hours of loud rock n roll music.
Yeah, these days you have to read em there human rights first !. Not a fan of the stairs, nice little room though. Enjoy the evening
Does anyone agree with 'the back of a big staircase taking up significant space, right in your field of vision,' ?
I just don't get that. You can see the stairs but they're hardly intrusive. In 1972 that was a feature!
It looks like every holiday cottage we've ever stayed in. But I agree the stairs aren't intrusive.
Up here in the top room I have the luxury of near field listening in a large (30' by 18'), sparsely furnished room. There's no tone controls on the amp, and none are needed. Downstairs, the room's smaller (25' by 20') and is filled with furniture, bookcases sofas, and so forth, so the treble needs a bit of a boost.
30x18 is a great size. Ideally I would have got a place with rooms that size. This was the best I could get on 8 grand a year though. I couldn't actually afford the mortgage but they gave me it anyway. Banks are great aren't they?
30x18 is a great size. Ideally I would have got a place with rooms that size. This was the best I could get on 8 grand a year though. I couldn't actually afford the mortgage but they gave me it anyway. Banks are great aren't they?
Back when we were buying our first flat, mortgages were rationed. If your bank (in my case the TSB) had used up its quota for the month, you had to do the rounds of other banks and building societies. We finally got a loan from Abbey National. £15,000, and I thought it was a massive sum to owe anyone.
This house has great rooms, which we've fllled with clobber. We keep thinking maybe we'll downsize, but we like the house, the road it's on, and the nearness of shops, doctors, and public transport, so we end up staying put. The whole place could do with smartening up a bit. 'Shabby chic' is a polite way of describing the decor.
I'd feel very much at home in your room Martin, who needs a dining table? (got rid of mine to fit the Ardens in)
The dining table used to be under the stairs. But I needed the space for the IMF speakers that are there now.
The dining table and four chairs came with house. Never used them. They are G-Plan I think, probably worth money now.
Lawrence001
19-06-2020, 19:18
Just come across this thread. In terms of why a small gap in the curtains can have a large effect on the SQ, I read reminded of the single slit experiment in physics. I don't think it's analogous as the width of the gap is probably too large as a fraction (or multiple for HF?) of the wavelength of sound but the gap could still be acting as a point source (or line source) almost like having a third speaker in the middle but not in phase throwing out reflections.
http://labman.phys.utk.edu/phys222core/modules/m9/diffraction.htm
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Just come across this thread. In terms of why a small gap in the curtains can have a large effect on the SQ, I read reminded of the single slit experiment in physics. I don't think it's analogous as the width of the gap is probably too large as a fraction (or multiple for HF?) of the wavelength of sound but the gap could still be acting as a point source (or line source) almost like having a third speaker in the middle but not in phase throwing out reflections.
http://labman.phys.utk.edu/phys222core/modules/m9/diffraction.htm
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I was thinking something like that. Because it is localised it makes it more obvious.
Does anyone agree with 'the back of a big staircase taking up significant space, right in your field of vision,' ?
Lol - what are you like?:D
Just my personal opinion! For me, the staircase looks odd, as if it doesn't belong (even though I know it does)... Plus, I'd have things set out differently, but it's YOUR gaff mate, so all that matters is that you're happy! I agree though that the big TV suits that environment, so enjoy:cool:
Marco.
Yes - but the big TV represents another hard surface for sound reflection. In fact the whole room seems to have a lot of hard surfaced walls; either bare brick (another '70s fashion), or plaster. Could you not put up some shelves and fill them with books?
That said, have you tried moving the speakers forward so the LH speaker is in front of the staircase, and further away from the RH speaker?
Lol - what are you like?:D
Just my personal opinion! For me, the staircase looks odd, as if it doesn't belong (even though I know it does)... Plus, I'd have things set out differently, but it's YOUR gaff mate, so all that matters is that you're happy! I agree though that the big TV suits that environment, so enjoy:cool:
Marco.
The previous owner put the staircase in. Originally there were two rooms and the staircase was in the middle between them. Enclosed of course. They had it all tricked out like this when they bought it in 1973.
A lot of these houses have the downstairs knocked through but they always leave the stairs in the middle of the room which sort of defeats the object. So you are right about it not belonging. I always intended to paint it a high gloss white but I've never got round to it. Lots of sanding required.
I know your very happy with the speaks, but I personally think a room like that is more suited to standmounts. My room though smaller is similar shape and has never really liked floorstanders at all.
Going back to your initial problem, that is a bit of a conundrum, but solvable me thinks. Btw what happened to the 44 s ?.I have 15xr which are quite splendid in my narrow room.
Yes - but the big TV represents another hard surface for sound reflection. In fact the whole room seems to have a lot of hard surfaced walls; either bare brick (another '70s fashion), or plaster. Could you not put up some shelves and fill them with books?
That said, have you tried moving the speakers forward so the LH speaker is in front of the staircase, and further away from the RH speaker?
You want some reflective surfaces though, don't want to damp everything. I have tried having the speakers further forward and further apart but then you get a weird effect from the alcove on the right hand side.
great batchelor gaff for me
The previous owner put the staircase in. Originally there were two rooms and the staircase was in the middle between them. Enclosed of course. They had it all tricked out like this when they bought it in 1973.
A lot of these houses have the downstairs knocked through but they always leave the stairs in the middle of the room which sort of defeats the object. So you are right about it not belonging. I always intended to paint it a high gloss white but I've never got round to it. Lots of sanding required.
Thanks for the info, that's interesting. Yeah, I think staircases like that should be enclosed, but painting it white wouldn't be a bad idea.
At the end of the day though mate, if it doesn't bother you, and you don't consider it an issue, then it's NOT an issue - end of!
In that respect, the important thing is to listen to well-intended advice, by all means, but ultimately stick to what you think is best for what you're looking to achieve:)
Marco.
I know your very happy with the speaks, but I personally think a room like that is more suited to standmounts. My room though smaller is similar shape and has never really liked floorstanders at all.
Going back to your initial problem, that is a bit of a conundrum, but solvable me thinks. Btw what happened to the 44 s ?.I have 15xr which are quite splendid in my narrow room.
I know where you're coming from, Brian, but Martin's not really a stand-mount kinda guy, and knowing his room and system, plus the kind of sound he likes, that wouldn't really be an option.
Marco.
Enclosed would be worse for the sound though? With it being open frame it's essentially not there from a sound point of view. At least that's my thinking.
My neighbour also has the rooms knocked through but his stairs are still in the middle. He reckons the arrangement in my gaff is better.
Having the two rooms was pointless. You end up just using the back room and filling the front room with junk. That's why loads of them round here are knocked through. Although there is one house in the next street where they've moved the kitchen into the front room. Looks weird but does make some sense, at least it gives the front room a purpose. Personally I'd rather have one big room than two small ones.
You want some reflective surfaces though, don't want to damp everything. I have tried having the speakers further forward and further apart but then you get a weird effect from the alcove on the right hand side.
Yeah, plus it's not exactly like you've got a hard or bright sound going on (or at least it wasn't the last time I heard your system), so no need to 'tame' anything.
Marco.
The stairs are not visually imposing, but seem to be an intrusion into the space which may be slightly restrictive, and I wouldn't like traffic repeatedly going past the speakers which may be an obstacle to movement..
My instinct usually is to fire down the long length as you have done, but in that room I would certainly try to place the speakers around the TV firing into the width. This approach does seem to get quite a lot of approval.
Enclosed would be worse for the sound though? With it being open frame it's essentially not there from a sound point of view. At least that's my thinking.
Your thinking makes perfect sense, but I guess you'll never know unless you try it. I think painting it would be better, as boxing it in would simply create a more visually intrusive structure. Going by what you were saying, the staircase would've originally been completely hidden from view, which would've been my preference, but that's now impossible, so you need to work with what you've got.
You could cover just the back of the staircase (the bit you can see) in MDF and make a feature of it by, say, painting it a funky colour [70s orange;)], which I think could look cool, and bring some colour into the room, or just paint it a simple white.
That way, it would hide the back of the stairs, and it wouldn't act as potentially resonant box.
Marco.
My instinct usually is to fire down the long length as you have done, but in that room I would certainly try to place the speakers around the TV firing into the width. This approach does seem to get quite a lot of approval.
That's also my view, and experience tells me it would sound very good, but it's fundamentally not what Martin wants.
Marco.
Audio Al
20-06-2020, 09:15
I just opened mine , Or its somewhat dark :)
That's also my view, and experience tells me it would sound very good, but it's fundamentally not what Martin wants.
Marco.
The speakers are quite deep so positioning them like that would mean I would be listening about 6 feet from the drivers. That would just be too close for a large, three way, four driver speaker to work optimally.
With the current arrangement I get a comparatively good 3d soundstage, the speakers 'disappear' leaving just the music hanging in space at the end of the room. You can sit and 'watch' the soundstage like you would sit and watch a film.
It also means you can crank the amplification up to a level where it really has a grip on the speakers in the bass without it being too loud at the listening position.
Someone else's preference might be completely different but I discovered many years ago that was the way I preferred a system to sound. Hence the long room and the speaker configuration I have now.
I like that effect and you don't get that with the speakers across the width of the room. They're too close to the wall behind them, the listener is too close to the wall behind him, and speakers and listener are too close together.
Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. You like what you like, and when you're very fixed on achieving it, as you are, you should follow your heart and stick with it. If I were doing that though, it would be with a very different type of speakers, which would suit the intended purpose, and you know what those are!;)
Did you not like my idea of covering the back of the stairs in MDF and painting it? I honestly think it would look quite cool:)
Or instead of painting the MDF, you could cover it in a huge big poster of something music-related... Say, Steely Dan!
Marco.
Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. You like what you like, and when you're very fixed on achieving it, as you are, you should stick to it. If I were doing it though, it would be with a very different type of speakers, which would suit the intended purpose, and you know what those are!;)
Did you not like my idea of covering the back of the stairs in MDF and painting it? I honestly think it would look quite cool:)
Or you could even cover it with a huge big poster of something music-related... Say, Steely Dan!
Marco.
No, I like the open frame look, I think covering it would look more intrusive. And putting a big sheet of hardboard up there would add another big, reflective surface that would also flap about with the bass frequencies. At some point I'll get around to painting them high gloss white and then they will disappear more into the white walls and ceiling. But that job's way down on my list of priorities.
Usually if I have music on I have the lighting low enough that that end of the room is pretty much dark, you can barely see anything down there. So it isn't an issue for me.
Lawrence001
20-06-2020, 09:53
Alternatively you could remove the stairs entirely and use a rope ladder that could be kept rolled up and simply pulled down with a thin cord when you need to retire upstairs. This would be very beneficial to the soundstage.
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walpurgis
20-06-2020, 09:57
A stairlift without stairs maybe? :D
Alternatively you could remove the stairs entirely and use a rope ladder that could be kept rolled up and simply pulled down with a thin cord when you need to retire upstairs. This would be very beneficial to the soundstage.
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I might go with that :lol:
The speakers are quite deep so positioning them like that would mean I would be listening about 6 feet from the drivers. That would just be too close for a large, three way, four driver speaker to work optimally.
With the current arrangement I get a comparatively good 3d soundstage, the speakers 'disappear' leaving just the music hanging in space at the end of the room. You can sit and 'watch' the soundstage like you would sit and watch a film.
It also means you can crank the amplification up to a level where it really has a grip on the speakers in the bass without it being too loud at the listening position.
Someone else's preference might be completely different but I discovered many years ago that was the way I preferred a system to sound. Hence the long room and the speaker configuration I have now.
I like that effect and you don't get that with the speakers across the width of the room. They're too close to the wall behind them, the listener is too close to the wall behind him, and speakers and listener are too close together.
I too have multi driver speakers, five driver four way and I listen at 12 ', but if I move in the near field does sound better.
If you box in the steps, you will install a large flat surface, not really a good proposition, and visually to me what you have is noit offensive, and a box ma be so, especially painted IMO.
But you could cover it with a large rug or other absorbent.
Rather than a rope ladder, a fireman's pole, that'll develop you upper body strength
rope ladder for getting up there, Batpole for going down.
https://i.ibb.co/MVtKcRR/untitled.png (https://imgbb.com/)
rope ladder for getting up there, Batpole for going down.
https://i.ibb.co/MVtKcRR/untitled.png (https://imgbb.com/)
Be interesting to replace Bruce with Head....... not referring to you of course. ;)
rope ladder for getting up there, Batpole for going down.
Didn't they used to slide up the poles as well or am I imagining it?
I'm loving the pole idea. For me, it's defo a goer, along with a dancer!:D
Hey Marty, parties are gonna be good at your place....
Marco.
Didn't they used to slide up the poles as well or am I imagining it?
No you're not - They stood on pads at the bottom and were then propelled upwards using steam power:
https://i.ibb.co/xsQd2rG/batpole.jpg (https://ibb.co/59Vw1Jv)
I'm loving the pole idea. For me, it's defo a goer, along with a dancer!:D
Hey Marty, parties are gonna be good at your place....
Marco.
I did use to know a pole dancer. She was eye-wateringly fit.
Love how everything had to have a very descriptive sign on it
Lawrence001
20-06-2020, 11:40
Love how everything had to have a very descriptive sign on itI'm just surprised they don't say Acme on them [emoji38]
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I did use to know a pole dancer. She was eye-wateringly fit.
There you go then, have you still got her number?:D
Marco.
There you go then, have you still got her number?:D
Marco.
She was only a friend and quite a bit younger than I was anyway. Was funny to watch the young lads around her though, she just had to snap her fingers with them.
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