Tracking Weight gauge , This is what you should buy

[Audio Al]

I have one myself , Very good , Weight measured at same hight as platter with a record , Also the power battery is huge compaired with the other makes

Just saying Like :D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100g-0-001g-Digital-Cartridge-Stylus-Tracking-Force-Scale-Gauge-LCD-Turntable/193440215728?_trkparms=aid%3D1110004%26algo%3DSPLI CE.COMP%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200220094952%26meid%3D7 a862b36c6fc44edb39dd6ac96f76401%26pid%3D100008%26r k%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D333587871626%26itm%3D19344 0215728%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv% 3Ddefault%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

[Lurch]

I'm also using one of these. It gets rid of the vtf error that occurs with regular gauges that sit 3 or 4mm above the normal record height.

Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk

[RobbieGong]

Yeah, one of the mistakes often made, not having the guage stylus platform at same height as stylus would sit on the record.

Another one of those useful and effective tips to remember

[prestonchipfryer]

Yes excellent accessory and accurate.

[Ammonite Audio]

Am I the only one here who bought that very gauge and found it to be utter shoddy cr@p and frankly unusable and unstable? I then treated myself to a Rega Atlas which does measure at an LP's height and it's great, as it should be, given the price.

[WESTLOWER]

I was intrigued when watching Unique Audio's 'TurnTable' Mik set up cartridges on many occasions,
he uses mechanical scales as he states they are overall more accurate.

This is a guy who's used everything on the market in the past..

[Audio Al]

I nearly choked on my Coffee , £184 :eek: Bargain compaired to a accurate £10 ,

I also have the one with the slide off half shell now that is crap :doh:

[Ammonite Audio]

I nearly choked on my Coffee , £184 :eek: Bargain compaired to a accurate £10 ,

I also have the one with the slide off half shell now that is crap :doh:

Yes, the Rega Atlas is IMO a bargain and made in the UK by UK workers! I'd be very surprised if I ever need to buy another gauge, so I reckon it certainly qualifies as 'good value'.

[Paul-H]

Would that be one of these at £3

https://www.wish.com/product/5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269?from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=GB&_force_currency_code=GBP&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269&ad_cc=GB&ad_curr=GBP&ad_price=2.00&campaign_id=8163884845&gclid=CjwKCAjw2a32BRBXEiwAUcugiFQ-VDv8o189iccbwM_pPIb3r10w9_FMttA0Gq0pfbi_e-c24m4WoRoCMTUQAvD_BwE&hide_login_modal=true&share=mobileweb

Or this version under the Pro-Ject brand for £89.99

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/project-measure-it-s2-digital-stylus-force-gauge.html

Or this version under the Roksan Brand for £109

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/roksan-electronic-stylus-balance-gauge.html

£3 to £109 amazing what adding a brand name to the same item can do to price.

[Audio Al]

Would that be one of these at £3

https://www.wish.com/product/5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269?from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=GB&_force_currency_code=GBP&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269&ad_cc=GB&ad_curr=GBP&ad_price=2.00&campaign_id=8163884845&gclid=CjwKCAjw2a32BRBXEiwAUcugiFQ-VDv8o189iccbwM_pPIb3r10w9_FMttA0Gq0pfbi_e-c24m4WoRoCMTUQAvD_BwE&hide_login_modal=true&share=mobileweb

Or this version under the Pro-Ject brand for £89.99

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/project-measure-it-s2-digital-stylus-force-gauge.html

Or this version under the Roksan Brand for £109

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/roksan-electronic-stylus-balance-gauge.html

£3 to £109 amazing what adding a brand name to the same item can do to price.

Indeed it is one of those and its pants , eats batteries

[scotty38]

Would that be one of these at £3

https://www.wish.com/product/5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269?from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=GB&_force_currency_code=GBP&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5836c8a9ad5c8b1ec7e24269&ad_cc=GB&ad_curr=GBP&ad_price=2.00&campaign_id=8163884845&gclid=CjwKCAjw2a32BRBXEiwAUcugiFQ-VDv8o189iccbwM_pPIb3r10w9_FMttA0Gq0pfbi_e-c24m4WoRoCMTUQAvD_BwE&hide_login_modal=true&share=mobileweb

Or this version under the Pro-Ject brand for £89.99

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/project-measure-it-s2-digital-stylus-force-gauge.html

Or this version under the Roksan Brand for £109

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/roksan-electronic-stylus-balance-gauge.html

£3 to £109 amazing what adding a brand name to the same item can do to price.

I have one of this type, maybe cost me a fiver on Amazon and if I take off my mat it ends up being at the level of the record surface too. Who needs any more?

[struth]

These are good.. Not sure if still available but may be

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200525/1b9b8c761c839cc441501db1b47f1333.jpg

[prestonchipfryer]

https://i.ibb.co/BN5v2Wf/technics.jpg (https://ibb.co/Qd3hvSJ)


I find this to be very good. Bought many, many years ago now.

[karma67]

These are good.. Not sure if still available but may be

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200525/1b9b8c761c839cc441501db1b47f1333.jpg

perfect! yes still about,i just bought one from holland,cheers for the tip off grant.

[brian2957]

These are good.. Not sure if still available but may be

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200525/1b9b8c761c839cc441501db1b47f1333.jpg

This guy has a couple left ( UK seller ) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMPUT-APTP446-ELECTRONIC-POCKET-SCALE-200g-0-01-UK/392280912489?hash=item5b55c3b269:g:aPwAAOSwaSZZ6x4 3

[karma67]

bloody ebay,that one didn't come up in my search,cheers though brian as i cancelled and bought that one now,bloody cheaper too!

[struth]

This guy has a couple left ( UK seller ) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMPUT-APTP446-ELECTRONIC-POCKET-SCALE-200g-0-01-UK/392280912489?hash=item5b55c3b269:g:aPwAAOSwaSZZ6x4 3

worth trying for money.. have other uses too:ner:

[karma67]

yes it certainly looks better than the generic chinese one we've all used.

[Audio Al]

The Amput one , How much higher is the stylus when on the X point ?

[Beobloke]

You’re all thinking too high-tech. A Garrard SPG-3 is all you need!

[brian2957]

bloody ebay,that one didn't come up in my search,cheers though brian as i cancelled and bought that one now,bloody cheaper too!

Hah! ' Bloody Ebay ' indeed Jamie :)

[Gazjam]

Had this one back in the day...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dKfoheomL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

If I ever went down this Rabbit hole I'd go for the Ortofon DS-3, the plate you sit the stylus on is the thickness of a 180gm record, which probably gets around any VTA variances with the chinese cheap jobbies (of which I own one)
Not cheap at around a Ton though.

Maybe cheaper to get your dealer to set it.

[Ammonite Audio]

If I ever went down this Rabbit hole I'd go for the Ortofon DS-3, the plate you sit the stylus on is the thickness of a 180gm record, which probably gets around any VTA variances with the chinese cheap jobbies (of which I own one)
Not cheap at around a Ton though.

Maybe cheaper to get your dealer to set it.

The Jelco SG-1 was identical to the Ortofon DS-3, but somewhat cheaper. Presumably the SG-1 has disappeared into the sunset along with the rest of Jelco.

Regarding the cheap Chinese jobbies and apparently more expensive branded equivalents, there are many seemingly identical electronic gauges available on eBay etc, but the Chinese makers are notorious for copying and cloning products. These things do look the same, but they are not; and having bought a few, they are patently not all good, and that's probably why a Roksan or Project branded gauge is so much more money - they simply have to throw away most of what they buy because of poor quality/accuracy.

Oh, and Adam's right - that old Garrard mechanical gauge is the one to go for, but try finding one!

[WullieD20]

Oh, and Adam's right - that old Garrard mechanical gauge is the one to go for, but try finding one!

Ha ha..... they must have increased in price. . . from 17/9 to 19/6 (seventeen and ninepence to nineteen shillings and sixpence). That equates today to an increase from 88.75p to 97.5p!
And capable of measuring up to 12 gms..!!!!

277952779627797

[Ammonite Audio]

Well, having looked on eBay I see there are loads of Garrard SPG3 gauges available, for rather less than I thought, so I've bought one. Should be great for 4g tracking SPUs which go beyond the range of my Rega Atlas.

[Clive197]

You can always try to get one of these, a Jelco SH-1 stylus gauge, while they are still available. I’ve had mine for about 18 months and find it more dependable than the cheap ones I’ve had previously.27805

[Ammonite Audio]

I used to stock the Jelco SG-1 - a great little thing with a measurement platform that really is at the correct height, but alas with Jelco closing down I can't get the SG-1 any more.

[Barry]

I have a couple of the digital scales mentioned. Being a strain gauge device their ultimate accuracy is questionable, but then setting a VTF to anything much finer than 0.1g is largely pointless.

For ultimate accuracy the best scales are simple mechanical balance designs, such as the Shure, the cheapie Ortofon give away, and the original Transcriptors.

The latter is calibrated with separate reference weights. Mine were turn can be checked using a chemical balance whose own weights were checked by the National Physical Laboratory.

[Fmarco64]

Well, having looked on eBay I see there are loads of Garrard SPG3 gauges available, for rather less than I thought, so I've bought one. Should be great for 4g tracking SPUs which go beyond the range of my Rega Atlas.

I did buy one myself too... it's also a nice piece of vintage equipment. The Jelco is also out on auction but it's far more expensive.

I do have the Shure as well, left in a drawer in favor of a cheap digital - but this thread makes me think I want to compare the two things together...

Question for the experts - is the height from record placement level so important? I understand that ideally the arm should be at the "play" position with no angle, but what's the real effect on the vertical force measurement?
My digital scale pressure point is never at the same level of the record, it's always higher than that.
thanks

[chiz]

is the height from record placement level so important? I understand that ideally the arm should be at the "play" position with no angle, but what's the real effect on the vertical force measurement?
My digital scale pressure point is never at the same level of the record, it's always higher than that.
This depends very much on the design of the tonearm.
Have a look at this article for a detailed examination of this subject:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html

[Audio Al]

Had this one back in the day...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dKfoheomL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

If I ever went down this Rabbit hole I'd go for the Ortofon DS-3, the plate you sit the stylus on is the thickness of a 180gm record, which probably gets around any VTA variances with the chinese cheap jobbies (of which I own one)
Not cheap at around a Ton though.

Maybe cheaper to get your dealer to set it.

No good for anyone wanting 1.8 Grams

[Gazjam]

Measures up to 3 grammes!

Two metal sliders, one for x1, other for x2.

[struth]

still got mine.. 2 spots for placing the stylus

[Fmarco64]

This depends very much on the design of the tonearm.
Have a look at this article for a detailed examination of this subject:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html

Thanks for pointing me to this article, very useful. I do use a scale that's not leveled with the playing position of the stylus (higher)
I made a couple of measurements removing the mat and then the platter (thus going to the opposite side) and the lower the gauge the lower the VTF was.
Food for thought and time to rediscover the analog types (Garrard SPG3 is on its way)

[mikeyb]

I tried with and without my 5mm Achromat.

Without - 1.50g

With - 1.55g

Boy you should have heard the difference that 0.05g made [emoji2957]

[Beobloke]

As an amusing aside regarding the SPG-3, a magazine (I think it was Hi-Fi World, but don't quote me) did a group test of various new balances about 15 years ago, but also threw an old SPG-3 in for a bit of a giggle.

The SPG-3 turned out to be the most reliable and accurate of the lot...

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks for pointing me to this article, very useful. I do use a scale that's not leveled with the playing position of the stylus (higher)
I made a couple of measurements removing the mat and then the platter (thus going to the opposite side) and the lower the gauge the lower the VTF was.
Food for thought and time to rediscover the analog types (Garrard SPG3 is on its way)

Having carefully read this, I decided to try something out this morning.

I run my Micro Benz LP-S at 1.7gm and set it up using an Ortofon beam balance gauge https://www.ortofon.com/stylus-pressure-gauge-scale-p-279-n-3444.

I checked the height from the platter to the Ortofon balance beam when level and this is just over 6mm. This means the stylus tip when on the Ortofon balance beam at the desired setting it is about 5mm above the record surface, based on taking and average of 1.2mm thickness for an LP see http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=32746&f=lprecordgraphandtable_thicknessbyweight.jpg.


So my arm is a constrained uni-pivot and so I decided to that the last figures for a uni-pivot into account, so a raising of 0.285gm with a stylus VTF measurement taken at 5mm above the record height. As my arm had the weight in line with the arm tube I decided to initially take in account an adjustment of 0.2gm. I therefore set the VTF up using the Ortofon gauge at 1.5gm.

Well this has made quite a bit of difference, better detail/definition, more dynamic and open, and a seemingly larger soundstage, whether this is perfect or not I cannot be sure, I think I may be investing in one of these when I can afford it. https://www.ortofon.com/ds-3-digital-stylus-pressure-gauge-p-708-n-3444

[topoxforddoc]

Here's an explanation about the effect on apparent VTF due to the height of the stylus scales in relation to the height of the LP on the platter.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html

[Barry]

I have one of the digital gauges mentioned by the OP: the EMB-1. Despite have a readout to three decimal places, the third figure can only be "0" or "5", so the resolution is 0.005g.

I weighed the calibration weights that come with the Transcriptor/Michell 'beam' balance using a laboratory chemical balance, whose weights had been checked against standards confirmed by the UK's National Physical Laboratory. I then weighed these Transcriptor weighs using the EMB-1 digital scales. In all cases the worse-case error in using the EMB-1 was 0.01g. Since IMO it is pointless in trying to achive VTF values correct to two decimal places, I regard the EMB-1 scales to be more than adequate.

This accuracy was maintained regardless of whether the detachable outrigger was used or not; it's sole purpose in being to place the stylus notionally at the same level as that of a record. But again, as above link http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html shows, the error is very small: certainly less than 0.1g for most sensible arm geometries. Just as well, otherwise one would be constantly be having to change the VTF (and VTA) every time one played a record of a different thickness (i.e. weight).

[karma67]

These are good.. Not sure if still available but may be

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200525/1b9b8c761c839cc441501db1b47f1333.jpg

got mine today,a nice bit of kit and i like the glass stylus area to,no more suffering minus figures caused by the pull of the magnets in my cartridge.nice one grant,cheers for the tip off.

[Barry]

Just get one of these, as recommended by Audio Al:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xpsAAOSwZ91eprYq/s-l1600.jpg

It has a resolution of 0.005g and is accurate to 0.01g. If you don't fit the outrigger platform so the stylus is notionally at the level of the record surface, but place the stylus directly on top of the weighing platform, the error is less than +0.1g. (To be specific using an SME 3009/S2 (Improved) arm, the VTF measured at the level of the gauge platfrom reads 0.03g over that when measured at the record level.)

[Paul-H]

This is my slightly DIY version. If I take the rubber mat off it measures the weight at close record height

Seems to work well

27812

[karma67]

with all this talk of accuracy of 0.01g doesn't anyone actually set their their tracking weight by ear any more?

[Audio Al]

with all this talk of accuracy of 0.01g doesn't anyone actually set their their tracking weight by ear any more?

:eek: No not me

[karma67]

:doh:

[struth]

I usually set it with a scale then tinker by ear.. Finally take another reading.

[Audio Al]

Out of curiosity I ordered a AMPUT

Epic fail , no good for hifi use as its just under 1/2 " high unless you can take your platter off and make all the height adjustments to get the scale platform at the record height

[struth]

I'm amazed anyone ever used turntables, what with weight adjustments being so imperfect.
The differences are minute tbh. And can be adjusted it take into account if your so minded. The trick isn't to dial in an exact weight at an exact height, it's to dial in the approximate one then check and adjust with ears.

Well that's how I always did it. Glad I'm digital now [emoji23]

[karma67]

Out of curiosity I ordered a AMPUT

Epic fail , no good for hifi use as its just under 1/2 " high unless you can take your platter off and make all the height adjustments to get the scale platform at the record height
well said grant!
for me their are just good for getting in the ball park,no cartridge manufacturer gives a weight that you have to stick too,they give you a range,how you arrive at a certain number is achieved by fine adjustments of vta and vtf which is all imo done best by using your ears.
if you are not bothered about vta,sra and vtf then why are you obsessing about how high the scales are :lol:

[paulf-2007]

Had this one back in the day...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dKfoheomL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

If I ever went down this Rabbit hole I'd go for the Ortofon DS-3, the plate you sit the stylus on is the thickness of a 180gm record, which probably gets around any VTA variances with the chinese cheap jobbies (of which I own one)
Not cheap at around a Ton though.

Maybe cheaper to get your dealer to set it.still use one, no batteries to worry about

[paulf-2007]

with all this talk of accuracy of 0.01g doesn't anyone actually set their their tracking weight by ear any more?
No.

[karma67]

really? how do you guys do it then if the manufacturer states the tracking force is for arguments sake between 2-3 grams?

[Audio Al]

really? how do you guys do it then if the manufacturer states the tracking force is for arguments sake between 2-3 grams?

I would aim for 2.5 grams

[karma67]

cool,are you choosing that because its in the middle of the range or for sonic reasons?

[Audio Al]

Because its a middle of the road reading ,

If anyone has a sonic gauge I can use i'm up for trying it :)

[karma67]

You’ve already got 2 on your head!:lol:

[Audio Al]

Yer but everyones are different giving wildly varing results :eek:

[walpurgis]

If the cartridge isn't mistracking or bottoming out onto the record you're halfway there :).

[Barry]

with all this talk of accuracy of 0.01g doesn't anyone actually set their their tracking weight by ear any more?

Of course. Since the cartridge manufacturer recommends a range of VTF values, one only needs to initially set the VTF to be in this range (preferably at the upper end); and for this the arm's own VTF scale is sufficiently accurate. Having got the VTF in the ball park, one then adjusts by ear to find the optimum value. I always start with the VTF about 0.2g below the maximum and then gradually reduce the value by ear. I have only rarely found I have to increase the value towards the maximum. And it is always better to overtrack than to undertrack.

With the more sophisticated stylus profiles currently in use, finding the correct VTF (and VTA!) is now much more inportant than it was with spherical and simple elliptical stylii.

Having found the correct VTF by ear, then measure it using the most accurate gauge you can find and make a note of it, so if you like to chop and change cartridges, you already know the optimum VTF for that cartridge.

[karma67]

cheers Barry, i thought i was on my own there for a minute :)

[Audio Al]

cheers Barry, i thought i was on my own there for a minute :)

If basic hit and miss is good enough so be it :lol: :ner:

[struth]

Audio-Technica VM750SH Moving Magnet Cartridge

Vertical Tracking Force 1.8-2.2 g (2.0 g standard)

now which part is hit or miss.. you have a .4gm aim.... and thats just what its recommended.. or is it that you must know to to the exact .01gm what its tracking at? oh and that will change with use, and every record you play if thats your aim..;)

[paulf-2007]

Ive read here about certain carts that seem really finicky and sensitive to minute changes and think they are basically flawed. Put a heavier record on and vtf is off and sound quality changes, not for me. Been through MC carts up to £750 and now been a happy bunny with a Shure Ultra 500 for some time. Tracking force on the ultra is 1.9grms without the damper and 1.4grms with it if my memory serves me well. Not really a faff, just set at 1.9 and then use it with the damper, fantastic sound.

[Audio Al]

Audio-Technica VM750SH Moving Magnet Cartridge

Vertical Tracking Force 1.8-2.2 g (2.0 g standard)

now which part is hit or miss.. you have a .4gm aim.... and thats just what its recommended.. or is it that you must know to to the exact .01gm what its tracking at? oh and that will change with use, and every record you play if thats your aim..;)

I treat my Shelter 5000 with upmost respect at £1400 it's a must do :)

[Jac Hawk]

I have one myself , Very good , Weight measured at same hight as platter with a record , Also the power battery is huge compaired with the other makes

Just saying Like :D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100g-0-001g-Digital-Cartridge-Stylus-Tracking-Force-Scale-Gauge-LCD-Turntable/193440215728?_trkparms=aid%3D1110004%26algo%3DSPLI CE.COMP%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200220094952%26meid%3D7 a862b36c6fc44edb39dd6ac96f76401%26pid%3D100008%26r k%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D333587871626%26itm%3D19344 0215728%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv% 3Ddefault%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

Took your advice mate and ordered one, still hasn't arrived and i've been waiting 3 weeks, so that's £9.99 you owe me :lol::lol: seriously though this is meant to be delivered from the UK, it pisses me off when ebayers disguise themselves like this claiming the item is in the UK when in actual fact it's in China:steam::steam:

[hifi_dave]

I've had a few of them.

What fascinates me is that we could just about cover the postage in the UK for £9.99, yet this is a product and postage all the way from China. How does that work ?

[WullieD20]

It pisses me off when ebayers disguise themselves like this claiming the item is in the UK when in actual fact it's in China:steam::steam:

Likewise! I contact them for a refund and tell them they are selling fraudulently. It's got such now that I always check the sellers address (despite claiming from UK somewhere) and if it's confirmed from far east I don't purchase......