A new kid on the block...Topping E30

[Bonky]

I've just received a new Topping E30 DAC - a small, brand new model. It arrived from China a lot quicker than I was expecting. After spraying the parcel with an anti-viral agent the unpacking started.

It's only been running on my 2nd system (Apple iMac> Topping> Rega Brio) and so far I'm impressed. It's been 'burning-in for an hour or so and it does sound more 'immediate' and articulate (cf a Beresford Caiman2).

I'm yet to try it in my main system (with a Beresford SEG + Dorado). I'll let it burn-in for longer before the swap.

So far it's being powered by USB from the Mac. Obviously I'll experiment later with a dedicated, smoother, 5V source.

I downloaded a HD Rolling Stones 'Honk" album yesterday and that sounds very good in both systems and, I think, a little better than the 'red-book' CD standard. (I'm 72 yrs old so am not exiting too much!)

Question: to fully appreciate the SQ and to make proper comparisons, I need to download more HD tracks that both the Topping and SEG can play at their max resolutions. I'm looking for recommendations folks - where you've noticed a noticeable difference between the HD and standard tracks.



I'm all ears... (!)

Thanks,

Richard

[Opti-cal]

Got mine a few days ago, also super faster than expected shipping. It's a lovely little unit. It's fairly close to my higher end modified DACs. I've got an ifi power supply on the way to try with it so it might bring it up another level.

It's exceptionally transparent and neutral, as a modern well measuring DAC should be.

One thing I have noticed though is that running it via the 5v slot on my streamer, it is a bit noisy.... Surprising given its noise figures. I do have a high gain system and efficient speakers but my tube DACs run silently. Albeit not on 5v USB supplies from the streamer feeding it! Hence the ifi power supply, should sort that issue also.

Sounds best via coax and on filter 4 and 5 to me.

Great looking little thing too. Knocks shades off all my previous toppings (D30 & 50).

As for the music comparisons I'd do some Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms. A good DAC will sound good with 16 bit and 24 bit versions, a great DAC will hold your attention for the entire album, especially the 24 bit. I am slightly bias though....

Also had an SEG for a while, it's warmer than the E30. The Topping winning out on clarity by a smidge. Both nice in different ways, I'm looking forward to hearing the E30 with a good power supply.

[Bonky]

Hi, thanks for that. Your impression if the difference between the two DACs mirrors my initial impression. It's been burning-in all night so will make a better comparison later.

I though, technically, USB should be better than coax?

I'd be very interested in your impression of upgrading the power supply.

I have all of Dire Straits on vinyl and CD so I'll buy a HD version soon. Thanks for the recommendation.

Please keep in touch.


R

[Opti-cal]

Hi Richard, no problem.

Re the USB/coax comparison, I've found normally coax to sound better than USB. However IF (and its a big if) the streamer/source is properly powered (good transformer/battery etc) and well isolated (I also like to use an SSD for storage) I can imagine USB maybe edging ahead. I've heard USB outputs from dedicated servers (which only output USB) and they sound great. I don't have one as I'm more than happy with my coax/toslink setup. One thing that will sound worse is using USB directly from a computer/laptop, at least in my experience that has always been the case.

You can quieten the USB source down (if its a computer/laptop) using noise suppression/isolating devices from the likes of ifi/Audioquest etc, but I prefer what is to me the 'cleaner' (at least in terms of noise) output of coax/toslink.

Hopefully my power supply for the E30 will be here today so I'll certainly let you know what I think.

Cheers Richard,

Chris.

[Bonky]

Hi Chris, thanks.

It's 'burned-in' by now (not sure I believe in all that unless there are massive capacitors) and I'm now using an Anker 5V battery I had spare as a power source...but still using it in my 2nd system - the weather has been too nice to 'play inside'.

Expectation bias perhaps, but the sound sounds 'cleaner' somehow.

If you find a substantial benefit in the iFi power I may ditch the Anker (I believe there are switching circuits inside the battery case).

The DAC certainly punches above its weight!

Thanks again,

Richard

[Opti-cal]

Hi Richard,

ifi power supply arrived yesterday evening (just in time).

Firstly it has cured the noisy USB power issue I was having so major plus points there.

The sound with it is fairly close to how it was before but I must say it is now even closer to my higher end DAC's. Only thing its missing in comparison is a small amount of bass slam and a bit of 'presence'. At the end of the day though we are comparing a £120 DAC with a modified £500+ one so the fact its so close is a testament to its design if nothing else.

My other DAC's are mostly tube output so no surprise in the sound difference. I've built my system mainly around these DAC's (which have a warmish signature) but a ton of ambient texture so the rest of my system is fairly neutral with a bit of high end extension (brought about by an extra pair of full range drivers on the speaker assembly).

If your system is naturally a tad warm then I reckon the Topping might be an even better bet as it does seem to do detail and clarity exceptionally well.

Is the ifi worth £50 for a small (but noticable) improvement? If we're treading the same path value-wise as the E30 itself, I would say not, given its phenomenal value for money. However, listened to in the context of sonic improvement and looking at the E30 as just 'a DAC', I would say it does bring things up another level. As ever its dependent on your circumstances but £50 for a power supply upgrade is not expensive in proper power supply terms.

Hope that's of some use to you Richard.

Additionally I have tried the DAC with a power bank battery and it too got rid of the USB noise I was getting. The sound quality is also very nearly as good as with the ifi supply. Just loses out a tad somewhere though, sorry I can't be more descriptive but it just wasn't quite as 'good' as with the ifi. To be honest I only listened for a few minutes with the battery bank so maybe not a fair comparison but having to charge it every few days may also become annoying, just a nice cheaper alternative to the ifi supply anyway.

Cheers,

Chris

[Bonky]

Thanks again Chris for that full and informative description.

I have two Anker 5V batteries so I suppose I could charge one up as the other is being used - but I know what you mean re the inconvenience. As you say, £50 isn't much for a clean PS these days. (Although in: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/ I think Amir found no objective improvement when using the iFi over a relatively cleanish PS from a smart 'phone charger (not, as you say from a laptop USB)).

...but this is a 'subjective'; forum after all.

At present my main system is warmish with a WD tube amp driving Living Voice speakers. I've yet to plug the E10 into it. I'll report back as I think a comparison with the Beresford SEG would be interesting.

A problem I have is that at 72 I've lost my 'top-end' (in all senses).

Thanks again,

Richard.

[Opti-cal]

Thanks again Chris for that full and informative description.

I have two Anker 5V batteries so I suppose I could charge one up as the other is being used - but I know what you mean re the inconvenience. As you say, £50 isn't much for a clean PS these days. (Although in: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/ I think Amir found no objective improvement when using the iFi over a relatively cleanish PS from a smart 'phone charger (not, as you say from a laptop USB)).

...but this is a 'subjective'; forum after all.

At present my main system is warmish with a WD tube amp driving Living Voice speakers. I've yet to plug the E10 into it. I'll report back as I think a comparison with the Beresford SEG would be interesting.

A problem I have is that at 72 I've lost my 'top-end' (in all senses).

Thanks again,

Richard.

Ahhh Amir (and his followers . . ), yes as much as I respect the importance for measurements of a component, it doesn't tell you 100% of the story. It's a useful resource but zero time spent actually listening to most of the products reviewed there misses almost the entire point of this hobby for me. They hate R2R DAC's too as they can measure appallingly (at least in the measurements they have deem as gospel to DAC performance).

Having said they they are a 'science' review forum so they do what is advertised. Just won't entertain any subjectivity what so ever, which often results in stupid spats and inflexible opinions.

As I say, a useful resource but ultra reliance and faith in pure numbers is not something that I can fully get on board with. If you measure a Lampizator tube DAC against a PC soundcard which one do you think will measure better . . . . and which one will sound better.

Living Voice speakers have an incredibly natural presentation on the few opportunities I've had the pleasure of listening to them. I really really like them, everything about them. They are good looking, well designed and above all sound superb. All boxes ticked for me. Good choice.

I think with those components you should try it in your system with the battery supply.

Haha, my dad is 70 and sometimes when we're listening to a piece (seems like a long time ago now!) I'll say, 'great shimmer or decay' his reply will be 'oh is something playing?' . . . .

Noticed over the last few years that I'm now missing the top few hz actually. Only noticed when I wasn't enjoying certain pieces quite so much . . .

Give it 10 years and I'll just be sat there with a pair of subwoofers, pipe and slippers.

Cheers

[Macca]

As I say, a useful resource but ultra reliance and faith in pure numbers is not something that I can fully get on board with. If you measure a Lampizator tube DAC against a PC soundcard which one do you think will measure better . . . . and which one will sound better.
s

I'm pretty certain if you search enough you'll find someone who prefers the sound of the PC soundcard. It is all subjective after all. Of course they would be hounded and ridiculed by Lampizator fans and those who think that kit that costs thousands has to be automatically 'better' than anything costing fifty quid. Sort of forgetting their own 'trust your own ears' rule in the process of course but that's how it goes.

[Opti-cal]

I'm pretty certain if you search enough you'll find someone who prefers the sound of the PC soundcard. It is all subjective after all. Of course they would be hounded and ridiculed by Lampizator fans and those who think that kit that costs thousands has to be automatically 'better' than anything costing fifty quid. Sort of forgetting their own 'trust your own ears' rule in the process of course but that's how it goes.

Expense aside (although likely an unconscious bias factor), they were just the most extreme examples of differing topological approaches to the design (that I could think of at the time!) but with the same end result, digital to analogue. One which would likely measure as expected and another which could measure all over the place. (Although I have not confirmed this). True, some people do not have ears though.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Ahhh Amir (and his followers . . ), yes as much as I respect the importance for measurements of a component, it doesn't tell you 100% of the story. It's a useful resource but zero time spent actually listening to most of the products reviewed there misses almost the entire point of this hobby for me. They hate R2R DAC's too as they can measure appallingly (at least in the measurements they have deem as gospel to DAC performance).

Having said they they are a 'science' review forum so they do what is advertised. Just won't entertain any subjectivity what so ever, which often results in stupid spats and inflexible opinions.

As I say, a useful resource but ultra reliance and faith in pure numbers is not something that I can fully get on board with. If you measure a Lampizator tube DAC against a PC soundcard which one do you think will measure better . . . . and which one will sound better.

Yes ASR misses the point entirely, by not listening, and worse measuring equipment wrongly, invariably using levels like 4v RMS that no commercial CD can possibly attain. Trying to get them to recognize that measurements if used, should be done correctly is a battle, let alone getting them to use their ears, which they flatly refuse to do.

[Macca]

Yes ASR misses the point entirely, by not listening, and worse measuring equipment wrongly, invariably using levels like 4v RMS that no commercial CD can possibly attain. Trying to get them to recognize that measurements if used, should be done correctly is a battle, let alone getting them to use their ears, which they flatly refuse to do.

I don't want to divert the thread but that is a complete misrepresentation.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I don't want to divert the thread but that is a complete misrepresentation.
To see for yourself , download Audacity, get it to display the level in the loudest CD you can find, read its RMS level which won't go past 2 volts , closer to 1.2v. Then look up reviews at ASR where they measure distortion at full volume where all that is being tested is the wiring of the Schiit preamp, as they refuse to measure passive volume controls at anything less than full volume - so an entirely pointless exercise as no one normally listens at full volume. You will see them applying 4v RMS to the wiring - and thinking that is OK.

As for not listening, read the many many objections they have to listening.

[Bonky]

Ahhh Amir (and his followers . . ), yes as much as I respect the importance for measurements of a component, it doesn't tell you 100% of the story. It's a useful resource but zero time spent actually listening to most of the products reviewed there misses almost the entire point of this hobby for me. They hate R2R DAC's too as they can measure appallingly (at least in the measurements they have deem as gospel to DAC performance).

Having said they they are a 'science' review forum so they do what is advertised. Just won't entertain any subjectivity what so ever, which often results in stupid spats and inflexible opinions.

As I say, a useful resource but ultra reliance and faith in pure numbers is not something that I can fully get on board with. If you measure a Lampizator tube DAC against a PC soundcard which one do you think will measure better . . . . and which one will sound better.

Living Voice speakers have an incredibly natural presentation on the few opportunities I've had the pleasure of listening to them. I really really like them, everything about them. They are good looking, well designed and above all sound superb. All boxes ticked for me. Good choice.

I think with those components you should try it in your system with the battery supply.

Haha, my dad is 70 and sometimes when we're listening to a piece (seems like a long time ago now!) I'll say, 'great shimmer or decay' his reply will be 'oh is something playing?' . . . .

Noticed over the last few years that I'm now missing the top few hz actually. Only noticed when I wasn't enjoying certain pieces quite so much . . .

Give it 10 years and I'll just be sat there with a pair of subwoofers, pipe and slippers.

Cheers

Agreed, especially the first 3 paragraphs.

I tend to believe that a subjective difference should (eventually) be objectively measurable, but an objective difference may not be subject to subjectivity.

Amir’s website is at least honest I suppose in that one knows what one is getting. Often the comments that follow are both informative and can be amusing in that they can find themselves driving up the same cul-de-sac of pure objectivity. Having said that I have read some subjective postscripts by him. He seems to have a love/hate affair with Schiit products.

I also think that it’s always pleasing to have one’s subjective assessments (prejudices?) confirmed by objective measurements. It gives one a warm glow.

If I was to judge hi-Fi by advertising objective measurements I would still be using a Sinclair Project 60!

Thanks,

R.

[Opti-cal]

Agreed, especially the first 3 paragraphs.

I tend to believe that a subjective difference should (eventually) be objectively measurable, but an objective difference may not be subject to subjectivity.

Amir’s website is at least honest I suppose in that one knows what one is getting. Often the comments that follow are both informative and can be amusing in that they can find themselves driving up the same cul-de-sac of pure objectivity. Having said that I have read some subjective postscripts by him. He seems to have a love/hate affair with Schiit products.

I also think that it’s always pleasing to have one’s subjective assessments (prejudices?) confirmed by objective measurements. It gives one a warm glow.

If I was to judge hi-Fi by advertising objective measurements I would still be using a Sinclair Project 60!

Thanks,

R.

Like nearly everything in hi-fi (life!) the sensible ground lays somewhere between both camps. You'd be silly to completely disregard measurements but in my opinion, as equally foolish to let them dictate what you do or indeed do not buy.

The Schiit thing is interesting, I think he (Amir) respects the engineering as well as the philosophy of the products but then quite a lot of it doesn't measure well under his conditions so probably feels he has to 'trash' it a bit. I can imagine a lot of the members are just waiting to wax lyrical about a new benchmark on the 'Sinad' graph as much as they are ready to destroy a product that fails certain parameters.

It's a bit gladiatorial actually, "Who next contender dares to enter the pit of measurements" - crowd baying for blood . . .

Sorry that's me being a bit crass and over simplification of what is overall an interesting forum but like most of these hobbyist forums, its entertainment isn't it. As such sometimes you need hero and villain (products).

As for the lack of 'real world' measurements, I've heard others say the same. I'm not technical enough to make a judgement but like I say others whom I consider knowledgeable say the same.

A fun little antidote to ASR I find:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php

[Bonky]

"A fun little antidote to ASR I find:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php
"
Thanks for that; I hadn't heard of that site before.

Surprising though it may seem during these strange times, I've had very little opportunity for A/B testing between the SEG and E30(powered by an Anker battery). The times I have had a few spare moments I've convinced myself that one is better, switched DACs - and found little difference! (I've used both speakers and headphones). However, the E30 will be for my second system (iMac + Rega Brio). Perhaps that says it all?

For anyone on a budget I can thoroughly recommend the E30. I wonder if an iFi PS would make any difference?

Thanks again.

[Opti-cal]

I wonder if an iFi PS would make any difference?


It does, not night and day but definite audible improvement. Yes its half the cost of the (cheap-ish) DAC but it is better than with a 'linear' power supply. The IfI is actually a well engineered switching supply and does drop the noise floor allowing more detail through.

Likewise the E30 is for a second (ish) system and for its purpose (to be left on all the time along with a Class D amp) it seems perfect. A lot of the rest of my gear has tubes in the chain and I fancied having an SS low power consumption system I can just press play on. Also less buttons for the Mrs to have to turn on if she wants to listen to a 'proper' system rather than just a soundbar/headphones.

[antonio]

I purchased a 15v ifi ps from a member on pfm and it has made a slight improvement to my D30. I don't have a 15v lps so cannot do a comparison.

[Bonky]

Yes, I too have an iFi on order. It'll be good to get away from having to recharge the external battery and get rid of some more nuisance leads.

R

[Opti-cal]

Just updating this thread really and giving some more credit to the Topping E30 combined with ifi power supply (5v).

Its been three or so months now I've had it and its actually made its way into my main system. Admittedly it doesn't have 'all' the texture and tone of my tube DAC's but for imaging, separation and especially soundstaging, it is actually a few streets ahead. The image it throws really is something to behold and it has definitely improved with time.

I've concluded that my tube DAC's, although lovely and non fatiguing to listen to (ever!), are missing some detail and clarity compared to the new wave of modern DAC's using newer chips and improved circuitry. I like switching between the two still as the enveloping, holographic effect of the tube output in my other DAC's is addictive.

However, considering the price differential between them and the E30, the performance of the E30 is genuinely unbeatable in my opinion.
I should add these levels of performance are only achieved using the ifi power supply and with the E30 in DAC only mode. These things do indeed make a noticeable difference.




Yes, I too have an iFi on order. It'll be good to get away from having to recharge the external battery and get rid of some more nuisance leads.

R

Richard - did you get the supply?

What are your thoughts on the Topping now?

[Bonky]

Just updating this thread really and giving some more credit to the Topping E30 combined with ifi power supply (5v).

Its been three or so months now I've had it and its actually made its way into my main system. Admittedly it doesn't have 'all' the texture and tone of my tube DAC's but for imaging, separation and especially soundstaging, it is actually a few streets ahead. The image it throws really is something to behold and it has definitely improved with time.

I've concluded that my tube DAC's, although lovely and non fatiguing to listen to (ever!), are missing some detail and clarity compared to the new wave of modern DAC's using newer chips and improved circuitry. I like switching between the two still as the enveloping, holographic effect of the tube output in my other DAC's is addictive.

However, considering the price differential between them and the E30, the performance of the E30 is genuinely unbeatable in my opinion.
I should add these levels of performance are only achieved using the ifi power supply and with the E30 in DAC only mode. These things do indeed make a noticeable difference.





Richard - did you get the supply?

What are your thoughts on the Topping now?

Hi Chris,

Yes, I'm still a convert, but bear in mind I'm 72 yrs old and it's in my small study - really as an addition to 'computer speakers'. I did trial it against a Beresford DAC in my main system and could receive little difference- perhaps the latter had slightly better 3D separation of instruments. I still think it's excellent value for money.

R

[Opti-cal]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I'm still a convert, but bear in mind I'm 72 yrs old and it's in my small study - really as an addition to 'computer speakers'. I did trial it against a Beresford DAC in my main system and could receive little difference- perhaps the latter had slightly better 3D separation of instruments. I still think it's excellent value for money.

R

Hi Richard,

appreciate your points there.

I also really just assumed it would be doing a job in a 'study' system or similar, but its really shown itself as more than capable in the company of more premium partnering equipment.

Like I say, it seems technology has moved on significantly since my other DAC's were conceived.

Happy listening Richard!

Chris

[Bonky]

Thanks Chris; same to you!

BW

Richard.