budget DAC for use with the pc. any advice welcome

[Nak]

I'm trying to get something with a bit more pizzaz than my auzentech prelude pci card and I've been reading about DACs for a few weeks. I'm trying to avoid paying for anything I don't need, like built in headphone amps. I've got spdif out on my motherboard so that's an option. I'm aiming for something in the £150-200 range. It's been said by some that I would need to spend double that to get a noticeable difference. I hope that's not the case.

I've heard great things about the MF Vdac and HRT Music Streamer and I've recently been looking at the Musiland Monitor 02 US(purely for it's take a punt price). Something from the UK would be excellent, for any faults or general problems. It'll be spending most of it's time feeding my neco headphone amp/akg k702s and the remainder into my little stereo setup.

I don't know if I'm coming or going, in all honestly. When I think I'm getting somewhere I'll turn up something new to factor in or my budget needs "tweaking".

[Ali Tait]

Beresford is hard to beat for the money.

[Nak]

I'm tempted by the rdac but that means waiting another few weeks and of course checking what other options are in the £300 bracket.

[Alex_UK]

I'm aiming for something in the £150-200 range. It's been said by some that I would need to spend double that to get a noticeable difference. I hope that's not the case.

I don't personally have experience of your audio card, but from the specs (http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_prelude.php) it looks very much like it is not aimed at getting the best out of 2 channel "hifi" - I had an Creative Audigy 2 which was a big improvement over the headphone out of my notebook, but frankly the Beresford Caiman murdered it in terms of hifi sound quality. If you've got spdif like you say, then you wouldn't need the USB of the standard Caiman, and as you also say, headphone/variable output is superfluous, so I can see why a V-dac would look attractive, in that you are only paying for the dac, not functionality you don't need.

The only point I would make there though, is that the Beresford's are way under priced compared to mass-market offerings, simply because there are far less overheads, marketing costs - essentially, it is a cottage industry as far as I can tell - Stan makes a reasonable profit, but does not take the you know what - and as he sells direct, there are no distributors, dealers or salespeople that need paying. So the dac bit may just still be better, even though your getting all those extras too.

If all you're after is a single input spdif dac, I wonder what the results would be with one of these... CYP-AU-D3-DAC/ (http://www.whathifi.com/Review/CYP-AU-D3-DAC/) - has anyone tried one?

[DSJR]

That little basic DAC really hammers home the point that DAC chipsets don't have to cost the earth. For £40 it's worth having one for a giggle to see just how good it is - and to fabricate a simple but bigger power supply for it (which would cost as much as the DAC itself no doubt :))

[Alex_UK]

For £40 it's worth having one for a giggle to see just how good it is

If I hadn't spent all this weeks pocket money already... But seriously, I reckon this would be quite useful in second or office systems particularly - as well as from soundcards, use an old player as transport, or even add one to an AirPort Express for wireless streaming... hmmmm...

[Batty]

I use my Denon DMD1000 minidisk player as a DAC, much better than the analogue out from the onboard sound on my PC

[StanleyB]

I'm trying to avoid paying for anything I don't need, like built in headphone amps. I've got spdif out on my motherboard so that's an option. I'm aiming for something in the £150-200 range.
I can't think off hand of any DAC that has just a SPDIF input, and no headphone etc output. Have you tried eBay? You might find such a DAC there, but it is likely to be an old one. Modern DACs come with more functionality.

Have you looked at maybe the Sabre DAC? Leo has done a couple of write ups on it


It's been said by some that I would need to spend double that to get a noticeable difference. I hope that's not the case..
When I was a kid a couple of people who I considered to be very respectable and knowledgeable used to tell me of the existence of Father Christmas, elves, etc. As I grew up I found out they had been telling me lies. I would suggest that you question the honesty of those who are making wild claims about how much you have to spend before you hear a noticeable difference. It's the old salesman trick as practised in car dealerships etc. The reality is that you can buy a £150 Pioneer DVD player or spend £4000 for a rebadged version under the Goldmund brand name.

[AndrewR]

Nak, You'll probably need to keep the auzentech as its digital output is likely to sound far better than the one on the motherboard.

Again another vote for Beresford - great as it is and awesome when Tirna upgrades are later applied.

Andrew

[Nak]

I can't think off hand of any DAC that has just a SPDIF input, and no headphone etc output. Have you tried eBay? You might find such a DAC there, but it is likely to be an old one. Modern DACs come with more functionality.

SPDIF is just one of the options, the other being usb. I have been hunting around on eBay daily for inspiration.



Have you looked at maybe the Sabre DAC? Leo has done a couple of write ups on it

Not at all, so I'm going to get on that right away. thanks very much.



When I was a kid a couple of people who I considered to be very respectable and knowledgeable used to tell me of the existence of Father Christmas, elves, etc. As I grew up I found out they had been telling me lies. I would suggest that you question the honesty of those who are making wild claims about how much you have to spend before you hear a noticeable difference. It's the old salesman trick as practised in car dealerships etc. The reality is that you can buy a £150 Pioneer DVD player or spend £4000 for a rebadged version under the Goldmund brand name.

I'm becoming more and more aware of this as I go, the more I read, the more sceptical I get.

[StanleyB]

Once you have exhausted your search, try one of my Caiman and take advantage of the AoS free delivery on it. If you can find a better DAC or you don't get on with it after a week or so just send it back for a refund. That should be sufficient time for you to make a judgement on how more capable the Caiman is compared to other DACs below £500 or even £2K if you pen in the extra £80 upgrades from Tirna Electronics. Since you are up north, why not see if Gazgam and others on this forum who also live that way are close enough to you? If they are, a trip to them for a listening test and a few beers might save you a lot of time and money.

[trailer]

If you're over the other side of the neep desert anytime then you can pop over and listen to mine.

[Nak]

Thanks very much for the offer and I'll be sure to keep it in mind. :)

[Mothman]

This is Chinese & relatively new to the market, sells for around £65. Contains a Wolfsan DAC. UK dealer is currently out of stock so not sure how long you may have wait for delivery.

http://www.fiio.com.cn/en/showproduct.asp?id=319

Short on connectivety but may do what your looking for. Should be a few reviews on the net if you google.

[technobear]

As far as DAC connections are concerned, asynchronous USB is the best interface (along with Firewire). There are quite a few DACs with asynchronous USB coming to the market now and at ever more temtping prices.

If you also have a need for coaxial or optical SPDIF for connecting other devices like TVs or DVD players then the Arcam rDAC looks interesting at £300 and is due in shops in the next few weeks.

If you only need a DAC for your PC and nothing else then the async USB toting HRT Music Streamer II or Streamer II+ (£130 and £330 respectively) are no brainers.

The Beresford Caiman is a very good DAC when fed from a low jitter source like a Transporter. Sound quality definitely suffers when fed from lesser sources like Squeezeboxes, HiFaces and heaven forfend low end CD players or DVD players.

Async USB removes the jitter issue almost completely (providing the DAC has a good clock) and I expect this type of DAC to take over from DACs with Adaptive USB completely over the next year.

Adaptive USB (as used by the Caiman and most other USB DACs) will die a swift death as it sounds vastly inferior to SPDIF, let alone Async USB.

Luckily I have a Transporter feeding my Caiman and it remains to be seen whether either of the new DACs from HRT or Arcam can outplay that combo. I intend to find out!

[StanleyB]

As far as DAC connections are concerned, asynchronous USB is the best interface (along with Firewire).

Adaptive USB (as used by the Caiman and most other USB DACs) will die a swift death as it sounds vastly inferior to SPDIF, let alone Async USB.

That's the hype generated by the async crowd. It reminds me of the same hype generated by upsampling, discrete opamps, etc. However, async in audio has its faults, just as upsampling does. The key trouble spot is the receiver in a DAC. It accepts SPDIF, so the async chip will have to output a SPDIF signal to the receiver. The datasheets of every receiver IC I have looked at uses the data to obtain the clock frequency of the data. So you'll have two chips in the same DAC both using the data for clock rate generation. A simple timing difference or method of deriving that clock between the two chips is going to cause more jitter, not less.

I am patiently awaiting the blind tests where people can pick out the adaptive from the async USB, and tell which sounds better. So far all that we punters have been fed with is endless marketing and sales hype in order to soften us and our wallet up.

[purite audio]

There is also a new async USB dac from M2Tech, ( designers of the hiface ) I expect that to be very fine, approx £600.
Available next month,Keith.

[StanleyB]

There is also a new async USB dac from M2Tech, ( designers of the hiface ) I expect that to be very fine, approx £600.
The substantial extra cost of async based DACs and their ability to be used on anything other than MS based operating system will be a big factor.
I wish you luck with that price point Keith.

[purite audio]

The M2Tech dacs will work on any OS, and their proprietary software will enable you to play any file up to and including 24/192.
Keith.

[technobear]

That's the hype generated by the async crowd. It reminds me of the same hype generated by upsampling, discrete opamps, etc. However, async in audio has its faults, just as upsampling does. The key trouble spot is the receiver in a DAC. It accepts SPDIF, so the async chip will have to output a SPDIF signal to the receiver. .

No Stan. Async USB DACs are a completely different beast to the one you know. The data never gets converted to SPDIF. That would completely defeat the object.

Right now I have this image of you standing on a beach, shovel in hand trying to build a wall of sand against the incoming tide.

There will still be a market for DACs like the Caiman for people who want better sound from their CD player, Squeezebox, DVD player, TV etc. using SPDIF.

However for anyone who doesn't own a streaming device and wants the best possible sound from music stored on a PC, asynchronous USB will take over because it will outperform any adaptive USB or SPDIF DAC all else being equal.

[StanleyB]

It will have to be SPDIF or I2S that will have to be used to connect from the USB chip to the DAC chip. I haven't seen any I2S multiplexers that would allow for USB, TOSLINK, and digital coax to be wired into the same DAC chip. The only way I know about for sure is via SPDIF through a receiver IC such as the CS8416. Even the M2Tech is SPDIF out. Has any of the asyn DAC sellers confirmed that the USB chip is I2S out?

[StanleyB]

Right now I have this image of you standing on a beach, shovel in hand trying to build a wall of sand against the incoming tide.
I am quite prepared to abandon USB altogether and concentrate on the more lucrative digital coax and TOSLINK input. USB has some major issues sound processing wise, and async is just the latest attempt to try to play catch up. Current digital connections to the receiver iC in a DAC already derive the clock from the data, so the hard sell that async USB is bringing something new sound wise is only an improvement on USB, not on the already existing signal connections. Of course the pushers of async USB have been keen to overstate the facts to the technically uninformed, but it will all come out in the wash.

By the way, there is a good page worth reading HERE (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/493152/low-jitter-usb-dan-lavry-michael-goodman-adaptive-asynchronous) that really takes the async hype to task. Snake oil salesmen would be advised to take note.

[purite audio]

Ethernet Async firewire and async USB are technically the best ways to transfer timed data, by dropping the embedded timing signal ( s/pdif aes/sbu adaptive usb ) the clock in the dac is in sole control of the data flow, the result is much lower interface jitter.
The very best dacs I have heard have all been async.
Keith
Stan I would talk to Marco at M2tech lots of companies are licensing his async USB protocol.

[Krisbee]

The M2Tech dacs will work on any OS, and their proprietary software will enable you to play any file up to and including 24/192.
Keith.

How long has the M2Tech HiFace been on sale? And still no Linux drivers.

[StanleyB]

Ethernet Async firewire and async USB are technically the best ways to transfer timed data, by dropping the embedded timing signal ( s/pdif aes/sbu adaptive usb ) the clock in the dac is in sole control of the data flow, the result is much lower interface jitter.

Let's look at those claims in sensible details.

1. SPDIF and TOSLINK input DACs already rely on in the clock inside the DAC for timing.
2. The data signal from a USB chip has to be fed to the receiver chip in SPDIF mode, and the receiver chip clock controls the DAC.

Now let's look at async.

There are two most common methods of transferring digital data from a PC to a connected device. The async pushers are trying to sell us the idea that it is all about managing jitter. The claim is that in async mode the device generates the clock and the computer follows it. In adaptive mode the computer generates the clock. The fact is that jitter is the result of irregularity of the data flow. Did I mention that every USB IC in the TI range is driven by is own clock? If it was true that adaptive transfer relied on the clock from the PC, then there would never be a need for a clock on any of the PCM27XX and PCM29xx adaptive USB chip.
So that debunks the 'clock' argument that async marketeers are trying to bamboozle us with.

Next, the bit that gets overlooked for convenience.
Both the PC and DAC are connected together via a USB lead. The data on a USB lead is never constant. That's because a PC is involved. A PC carries out several tasks at the same time and ends up sending data over USB based on an IRQ (Interrupt Request Queue), irrespective of which device generates the master clock between PC and DAC. This irregular data transmission causes jitter. For that reason alone it isn't possible to have jitter-free data flow on the USB connection.

Now let's look at the async technology as it is supposed to be working on the data packet level between PC and DAC.
The data is chopped up by the async driver software into smaller slices, which are padded with a start and stop bit. Then at the DAC end these chopped up bits are reassembled again after the start and stop bits have been discarded. All that chopping and reassembling requires time. That introduces a delay in the audio chain. That delay is best known as... jitter.
Those of us who have worked in PC software writing and hardware manufacturing can no doubt remember that reassembling of a bit stream involves discarding bits or padding the data with 0's in order to derive at the correct length of the bit stream. does the term checksum error correction ring a bell with anyone?

These fancy claims attributed to async between PC and a DAC just don't hold up once one understand what async is and does. Someone somewhere must have got the idea to flood the DAC market with some high tech talk with the intention of selling/licensing a new set of clothes for the emperor. It's important to the less technically astute DAC buyer however not to fall into the same trap as analogue versus digital TV/audio, or FM versus DAB. By the time you wake up to the fact that you have been had, time would have passed by and the money would have been drawn from your bank account.

[Clive]

For communications async has always been bad and sync good. After over 30 years in the computer industry a don't crave async comms so I understand where you're coming from Stan.

[purite audio]

This short post explains the various methods of transferring timed data, of course data transfer is just one aspect of good implementation.

'As has been pointed out, all oscillators will exhibit some kind of jitter - sometimes referred to as "intrinsic" jitter.
You may then have jitter artefacts due to the power supply e.g. injecting some mains-related stuff into the local oscillator.
On top of this, you then have to deal with interface jitter - the jitter at the local clock that is added by attempting to synchronise the local clock with the clock in the source - the the DAC has to consume data at the same rate the source is feeding it, or buffers will overflow.

These are ordered from least to most ( in a competently designed system )....

There are a few main techniques for dealing with interface jitter:
Ignoring it altogether.
The interface itself.
Using a PLL to filter the interface jitter, providing a cleaner version of the clock reconstructed from the interface to the DAC.
Using an Asynchronous Rate Converter ( ASRC ) to manipulate the data such that it "fits" in the two clock domains
Using the DAC clock to drive the clock in the the source ( "asycnchronous" modes - async USB, async firewire, most ethernet solutions, some kind of link from DAC to source )

The last is the best - assuming the same level of competency is applied in all cases, but all bets are off otherwise'

[roob]

I think Stanley is on a mission ;)

[StanleyB]

I think Stanley is on a mission ;)
Ignorance is bliss. Who was it that said that if you tell a lie long enough, it will become fact? However, when perfectly intelligent people who happened to have forgotten their ABC of science over the years are confronted with pseudo science, it's easy for them to accept fiction as fact as a way to keep looking well informed. A quick revision into the science involved will however soon re-energize the dormant memory cells, recollection of one's days at school and uni studying the subject gets pushed back into the fore, and soon all becomes clear;).

[kininigin]

Ignorance is bliss. Who was it that said that if you tell a lie long enough, it will become fact?.

Joseph Goebbels

[webby]

If I hadn't spent all this weeks pocket money already... But seriously, I reckon this would be quite useful in second or office systems particularly - as well as from soundcards, use an old player as transport, or even add one to an AirPort Express for wireless streaming... hmmmm...

Alex, just curious, do you think that little CYP would really make a difference to the Airport Express?

[Alex_UK]

I can't vouch for it personally, as I haven't had experience of it, but by taking the example of a USB Soundblaster PC Soundcard I had, which was quite a cheap one (£70) it knocked spots off the internal DAC on the laptop. Given that the soundcard had all of the other extras like remote control and leads, I'm guessing the cost of the DAC chip is pence - so there's no reason why a very adequate DAC couldn't be put together for this amount of money, and I'd wager it would improve upon the airport express's built in one...

I'm pretty sure it is the same as this one on Amazon with a different name (http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAP-3-Digital-Audio-Analogue-Converter/dp/B002KHA1J6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1279808977&sr=8-1) - most people using them to take the sound from TVs, but some for audio:

" Allows me to run 10m of optical cable (mini-TOSlink to TOSlink) from my iMac into my TEAC analogue inputs. The sound is even better than running directly off the TEAC cd player ! Very happy bunny."

"Bought this to give me a clean signal from the optical output of my Macbook Pro as it's analogue output is pretty awful. Plugged it in and away we went. Lovely clean, rich sound (and I've been a professional sound designer for 22 years so I'm picky). Would recommend wholeheartedly."

"Bought this to connect to an Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod dock (also bought from Amazon). Does the job just fine. Connected the Onkyo to the DAC using a QED optical cable and then connected the DAC to my Yamaha analogue amp with Cambridge audio co-ax cables. Great sound"

Dunno - would be an interesting experiment, though but I don't have an Airport Express (or any play money left!)