Too much of a good thing, or too much of an irrelevant thing?

[sluggish]

Here's something I always thought was interesting: back when I worked in hi-fi shops (about 20 years ago), when we employees wanted to listen to music for fun rather than to demo for customers, we tended to do it on modest systems.

Even though we had our choice of premium stuff at our disposal (Linn, big Klipsch, c-j, Maggies, various pricey source and amplification products of the moment), we tended to gravitate more toward a lash up comprised of some likely combination of Creek/Rotel/Marantz/NAD/Kef/B&W/JPW (and sometimes the little Klipsch KG2, but never, ever Polks) when playing our own music for each other.

I don't know that this leads to any great insight about when hi-fi upgrades become musically superfluous, but I always found this intriguing. Does better sound always = a better experience?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Maybe for the same reason I (as a photographer) use my iPhone as a camera for taking photos for on here...
Steve said somthing rather nice and apt the other day
"if you want to fin a leaking tap, go to a plumbers house"

I actually have a rather dubious little figurine of a cobbler with broken shoes that my nan left me... Gimmi a sec and il take a photo of it! (with my iPhone of course)

Somtimes I think getting involved in high end hifi in that sorta situation might make you think "ooh perhaps we should try that new cable" or what ever... Where as listening to the lesser hifi, you are almost saying "this is just about the music"....

I have actually found going for active speakers very liberating, it's made me forget about the hifi quite a lot, the last few days I have been the happiest I think I have ever been listening to music - setting aside the fact it sounds very good, because I initially felt I was going to be loosing somthing by going with hannah's idea of shrinking the system my mind set changed... And now I'm thinking a lot less about the system, I'm massively happier...

edit: im not sure how relevant that last bit is... but im very happy, so i felt like saying it anyway :)

another edit: here is the cobbler with broken shoes... (im not sure how relevant this is any more... its been a long week)

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/e92f882b.jpg

[Joe]

I think it's partly due to the fact that not all 'high end' stuff is as good as it's cracked up to be, plus one's expectations of mid-fi stuff aren't as high so disappointment is less likely.

[magiccarpetride]

Here's something I always thought was interesting: back when I worked in hi-fi shops (about 20 years ago), when we employees wanted to listen to music for fun rather than to demo for customers, we tended to do it on modest systems.

Even though we had our choice of premium stuff at our disposal (Linn, big Klipsch, c-j, Maggies, various pricey source and amplification products of the moment), we tended to gravitate more toward a lash up comprised of some likely combination of Creek/Rotel/Marantz/NAD/Kef/B&W/JPW (and sometimes the little Klipsch KG2, but never, ever Polks) when playing our own music for each other.

I don't know that this leads to any great insight about when hi-fi upgrades become musically superfluous, but I always found this intriguing. Does better sound always = a better experience?

Yeah, it's a well known phenomenon. For example, I'm a guitar player and I'm using top notch vintage guitars and amps (Fender Strats, Gibson Les Pauls, etc.) But I will eagerly jump on any opportunity to play the crappiest guitars ever made by humans. It's just too much fun to pass. You grab a shitty guitar, and then the challenge is to see how much music can you squeeze out of it. Sure, anyone can deliver beautiful sounds and gorgeous music with a vintage Strat or Tele plugged into a vintage Fender tube amp, but let me hear you play something coherent on a crappy replica plugged into the shitty and shrill transistor amp!

[James G]

Have you guys ever noticed that when you go to the electronics store looking at big screen LCDs, the colors and brightness will be turned up way too much? Then when you get it home it's like having the sun in you living room and giving you a headache. Once you get it set up to normal watching it's looking nothing like the TV in the store.

I think TV manufacturers do this so you will notice their set among all the other competition. I think some hi-fi stuff does this too. When you walk in the shop it's practically screaming to you, "Hey, check me out! Have you ever heard such detail?! I am bad ass! I make this other stuff sound like toys!". But then when you get home with it, it will eventually drive you nuts with all the constant attention seeking.

I'm not so great at expression, but don't you guys think so?
Oh, and Hamish I can tell you use your iPhone. The pics look noisy and a little... umm, greasy. ;) Use your good camera man! :)

[Mike]

I think TV manufacturers do this so you will notice their set among all the other competition.

Spot on there, I reckon!

They all seem to come out of the box with retina searing settings! :mental:


How does that work with HiFi though?... I can't really think of any gear with 'settings' that can be adjusted to be attention grabbing. :scratch:

[Marco]

Graphic equalisers? ;)

Apparently, some here like 'em!

Marco.

[sluggish]

I like the figurine, Hamish; it sums up my entire existence! And congratulations on the active ADAMs, too.

I think that lowered expectations had something to do with it, as did the more forgiving nature of most of the more modest systems (and I think this forgiving quality is what I appreciate most in my Spendors as well). Part of it was reverse snobbery I'm sure, as we we're all college guys trying to feed ourselves. And a big part of it was a sense that high end stuff was more about Jazz at the Pawnshop than real music -- thanks, at least in part, to the influence the American hifi mags had on many of the consumers.

[Mike]

Graphic equalisers? ;)

Apparently, some here like 'em!

Marco.

:spew:




Actually, I'm sure they have their place. But they just aren't for me. No offence anyone. :)

[sluggish]

Speaking of TVs, has anyone ever noticed the ones in hotels always suck? And you can't ever really adjust them -- they either have no picture adjustments, or they have presets that go Suck1, Suck2, Suck3. I just got back from a fairly swanky place in downtown Chicago, and the set their was a Philips LCD job that made everything look like a cartoon.

Oh, and that brings up another question: while up there I had breakfast at an English pub-styled place called something like the Goat and Scrotum, and I had a breakfast that included toast, baked beans, grilled tomatoes, and mushrooms. I'd heard of this beans and tomatoes on toast thing before, but wasn't sure how to do it so I just piled it all together. It actually didn't taste bad, but can any of you kind UK folks tell me the proper way to do it? And I gather rye bread is not preferred, because the waitres gave me the stinkeye when I ordered it that way...

[Mike]

can any of you kind UK folks tell me the proper way to do it? And I gather rye bread is not preferred, because the waitres gave me the stinkeye when I ordered it that way...

There is no 'proper way'... if it all goes down your neck, all is well! :lol:

I prefer wholemeal or granary bread.

The essential bits are; bacon, sausage, eggs, and most importantly BLACK PUDDING! :eek:

Yum, Yum... :trust:

[sluggish]

My wife figured the sausages are called bangers because they look like... Anyway, I think she prefers Polish.

[sluggish]

Hey, at least I didn't go for the spotted dick jokes.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Is this coz I said tap instead of bloody forset (or what ever you say over there)
And yeah, are you a veggie? There's no point in a fry up without the bacon and stuff ... I couldn't give a toss about the bread... But if there's no meat on the plate... Well that's just not a fry up!
Goat and scrotum! Ha!! There's one of those round the corner from me! ;)

[sluggish]

Nah, no faucet/tap stuff, just me being silly. And I'm no veggie -- that day was bacon and sausage with breakfast, a bacon and tomato on wheat for lunch, and lamb and little fried squiddies at a Greek place for dinner. Yummmm.

[James G]

Spot on there, I reckon!

They all seem to come out of the box with retina searing settings! :mental:


How does that work with HiFi though?... I can't really think of any gear with 'settings' that can be adjusted to be attention grabbing. :scratch:

I mean to suggest that perhaps some hi-fi is voiced to grab your attention in the store more than make you smile for 20 years. Just a wild theory and of course does not apply to everything.

Like recently I put some Dynamicaps in my amp and was pretty stunned at the added resolution compared to the stock caps. I kept them in for many months but finally they just begun to wear me out and I wasn't enjoying it anymore. I put in $3 Wima MKP10 caps and feel so much better now. I was not expecting much from them, it was an "Anything except those damn Dynamicaps!" situation, but I actually really like them! I wanna try some oilers but can't make up my mind because I don't want to go through the Dynamicap thing again.

[sluggish]

James, I tried the parts swapping stuff for awhile and drove myself nuts with it. For me it was one of those I can listen to music, or I can listen to my teaks, but I can't do both situations. But, for what its worth, I did like the Jensen oil caps I used.

Oh, do you know a hotel call the Sea Foam on, as I recall it, Kitty Hawk? I had a great time out there a few years back, and spent the whole time calling it the Pee Foam... Gawd, I really need to grow up someday.

[James G]

James, I tried the parts swapping stuff for awhile and drove myself nuts with it. For me it was one of those I can listen to music, or I can listen to my teaks, but I can't do both situations. But, for what its worth, I did like the Jensen oil caps I used.

Oh, do you know a hotel call the Sea Foam on, as I recall it, Kitty Hawk? I had a great time out there a few years back, and spent the whole time calling it the Pee Foam... Gawd, I really need to grow up someday.

Yeah I know what you mean Randy. I am learning some lessons the hard way but it's still fun. I just hate it when a plan doesn't go through. I keep hearing great things about those Jensens and they don't cost a fortune. And the VTV Ultratones have gone done in price too. I wonder about those. I don't like attention seekers. So far I tried Mundorf Supreme, Auricaps, Dynamicaps, V-Cap tefs, and Wimas. All of them sounded fake to me except the last 2. Well, maybe the last 2 were a little fake but not obnoxiously so.

I am from further south than Kitty Hawk. I was living in Atlantic Beach before coming out to east Asia for some work. Haha, that sea foam really does look like pee foam somedays huh?

[sluggish]

Pee foam aside, the crab cakes and Cheerwine were good! And I know what you mean about attention seeking sound. A buddy of mine has a pair of these Def Tech bipolar things that are all boom, tizz, and fake ambient space. He doesn't care much for my little system, feeling it sounds "unexceptional." I tell him that's part of the point, but the argument is lost on him.

[Ali Tait]

I mean to suggest that perhaps some hi-fi is voiced to grab your attention in the store more than make you smile for 20 years. Just a wild theory and of course does not apply to everything.

Like recently I put some Dynamicaps in my amp and was pretty stunned at the added resolution compared to the stock caps. I kept them in for many months but finally they just begun to wear me out and I wasn't enjoying it anymore. I put in $3 Wima MKP10 caps and feel so much better now. I was not expecting much from them, it was an "Anything except those damn Dynamicaps!" situation, but I actually really like them! I wanna try some oilers but can't make up my mind because I don't want to go through the Dynamicap thing again.

Try SCR teflons.They are very expensive but are far and away the best caps I've tried.Be warned,I found they take an age to break in.

[Ali Tait]

If you want to try oil caps,Audio Note Coppers are great.The silvers may be better but there's no way I'm paying that much!

[DSJR]

The WHOLE thing about Linn/Naim systems post 1980 was that they grabbed your attention and all bit pinned you to the wall. Sadly all this was done with opposing colourations and listened to today with mature ears these compromises are all too audible to me.

[sluggish]

To me the LP12 is like the Porsche 911. Both are charming yet inherently flawed designs that can only be advanced so far before they become caricatures of themselves. A 911 is a small air cooled sports car with the engine in the wrong place, and from my perspective it's intrinsic 911-ness peaked with the 2.7 RS. New "911s" are nice enough, but they are really very expensive facsimiles of the original. In that vein, I see the LP12 as having intrinsically peaked in Ittock/Valhalla era, which was a fun and bouncy player with a fat midbass that tended to flatter pop music played on smaller speakers. Today's LP12 is like today's 911 -- nostalgia products that attempt, for a very high premium, to combine modern performance with classic form factors. Somehow, though, much of the charm and fun got lost.

Otherwise, my linn/naim experience is as follows: Had a nait 1, was good but not as magical as reputed; sold linn for a living, found the intek and lk100 to sound like rotel, the lk1/280 lively but mechanical, kairn better than lk1, kabers (active) also mechanical but lively, index 1 hopelessly colored, index 2 good but bright, helix thumpy and lumpy, kaliedh a better helix, karik/numerik bland, lp12/ekos/troika/lingo good when it was running right, but too expensive and tended to be moody and have "off days," keltics sounded big but not all that stunning, at least on lk100s. It's hard to imagine that the whole linn/naim thing was just a bose-like marketing coup, but maybe it was?

[Techno Commander]

I had a breakfast that included toast, baked beans, grilled tomatoes, and mushrooms. I'd heard of this beans and tomatoes on toast thing before, but wasn't sure how to do it so I just piled it all together. It actually didn't taste bad, but can any of you kind UK folks tell me the proper way to do it?.


Just pile it up on the toast and attack it with a knife and fork. Finesse is not required. Maybe add some grated cheese to the toast before the beans.

[Techno Commander]

If you want to try oil caps,Audio Note Coppers are great.The silvers may be better but there's no way I'm paying that much!

I concour. I have these in my pre amp and love the sound I get from them. Quite reasonably priced in the grand scheme of things as well.

[sluggish]

Andy, what kind of grated cheese? And do you butter the toast or just use it dry?

I tried to make the beans on toast thing at home, but it didn't come off all that well. I'm thinking I might try piling some bacon and a nice runny poached egg on there. That's not a sacrilege, is it?

And what exactly is black pudding? Blood, right? I hear it does actually taste good, so I'd try it. Hell, I like fried pig skin, so what's a little blood?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Beans on toast doesn't work in the US because your beans are different to ours. You guys stuff 'em full of pork, pork fat and sugar.

[sluggish]

Bush's vegetarian baked beans was fairly close to what I had at the old Goat & Scrotum. Probably a little sweet, but workable.

[James G]

Try SCR teflons.They are very expensive but are far and away the best caps I've tried.Be warned,I found they take an age to break in.

My amp is a pre/main. I'm having V-Cap teflons for coupling in the pre. You're right, they take eons to finally settle down! If I went all teflon I'd be afraid of stepping into that "too much of a good thing" territory again. Like when you turn up the sharpness on your tv set too much and it actually makes the picture look worse. ;)

I'm just looking for a little bit of that bloom and warmth.

[James G]

If you want to try oil caps,Audio Note Coppers are great.The silvers may be better but there's no way I'm paying that much!
Hey but aren't those AudioNotes like $100 a piece? I would have to buy 4 for my push-pull. After buying the V-Caps I just don't want any more expensive caps. :(

I'm not the OP. Sorry for the thread drift Randy.

[sluggish]

I'm talking about toast and beans and your apologizing to me about about drift? Drift away! I should be apologizing to you.

But, from a technical point of view, aren't teflon caps about as close to perfect as you can get?

[James G]

I'm talking about toast and beans and your apologizing to me about about drift? Drift away! I should be apologizing to you.

But, from a technical point of view, aren't teflon caps about as close to perfect as you can get?
Point taken but it is your thread sir! :lol:

So, about the pork and beans; you ever had a good eastern North Carolina BBQ? I'm going back there in August for an entire month. Hope I don't gain too much weight!

I admit I'm an audio noob, but as far as I can tell the teflons are about the best I've heard. They will disappoint at first but like Ali says you have to give them time. A lot of time!

So far I've only tried the Auricaps, Multicaps PPMFX, Dynamicaps-E, V-Caps, and Toichi PIO in the high voltage areas. This isn't meant to be a review, but I thought the Auricaps and Dynamicaps sounded kind of fake to me. The PPMFX are very cheap and not too bad, but the mids were a bit unremarkable. The Toichi PIO are also very cheap and make vocals sound gorgeous, but the highs were way rolled off and the bass lacked definition.

Of course all of these are just personal observations, in my system, in my room, with my ears, brain, etc, etc. I'm certain if my speakers were different my opinions would differ. Which is why I'm holding on to all these caps because I know my speakers will get changed sooner or later.

But I'm with Randy. When someone hears my system I would rather see a look of pleasure on their face than a look of astonishment.

[James G]

Oh, and another thing about the teflons; I've never heard of anyone using all teflons in a component. Maybe it goes back to too much of a good thing?


Post 100!! I'm a grownup now! :ner:

[sluggish]

James, as it turns out I lived in Raleigh for about a year in my late teens, so I've enjoyed quite a bit of that delicious Carolina BBQ! What do you think of Tokyo? I've never been there (hope to someday), but my cousin has lived there since the '80s and loves it.

[Techno Commander]

Andy, what kind of grated cheese? And do you butter the toast or just use it dry?

My preference is to butter the toast and use a good strong grated cheese.
A slice of ham on top of the cheese works wonders.

[Techno Commander]

Hey but aren't those AudioNotes like $100 a piece?

Most of them cost considerably less than that.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/cap_paper.shtml

Some of my other caps cost considerably more.:eek:
But they are worth every penny.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Hi%20Fi/7.jpg

[James G]

James, as it turns out I lived in Raleigh for about a year in my late teens, so I've enjoyed quite a bit of that delicious Carolina BBQ! What do you think of Tokyo? I've never been there (hope to someday), but my cousin has lived there since the '80s and loves it.
Yep I'm looking forward to some of that BBQ when I get back. I love living in Japan but there's one hell of a learning curve when you first get here :lol: and it helps to be a little open-minded to a different culture I guess.
I'm one of those people that get bored and restless too easily (ADD?) so living in Tokyo keeps me on my toes.

[James G]

Most of them cost considerably less than that.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/cap_paper.shtml

Some of my other caps cost considerably more.:eek:
But they are worth every penny.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Hi%20Fi/7.jpg
Well you got me there! :)

Now accepting donations: .47uF/450v x4 ;)

[Ali Tait]

Try here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/copper_foils.html

[Ali Tait]

Most of them cost considerably less than that.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/cap_paper.shtml

Some of my other caps cost considerably more.:eek:
But they are worth every penny.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Hi%20Fi/7.jpg

Aye those WKZ's are not cheap!!

[James G]

Try here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/copper_foils.html
I'm still on the fence about those. My current idea is to get the hard details from my source and the amp will supply all the love to balance things out.

What about those Jupiter Beeswax? They say they have a "natural" sound. Even if they are ever so slightly rolled off in the highs as long as an acoustic guitar and voice sounds like (I think) they should, then mission accomplished! I'm not really that hard to please like it might sound. Just bored if anything.

Anyone try them as couplers in a PP power amp?

[Ali Tait]

No haven't tried those.