Kralk Audio TDB12 or Kef 105.4

[Jac Hawk]

I'm looking for advice and recommendations here, basically i want a bit more bass in my life i'm currently running a pair of Monitor Audio 705 PMC speakers which are slim floor standers with 2 x 6 inch drivers and a metal dome tweeter, the mid and top end out of these is great but i think the bass could be improved on.

My listening room is in the basement so no windows, it's about 15 foot square and a low ceiling about 6'4", the floor is carpeted and the room is sonically dead zero echo, due to the size of the room the speakers need to go no more than 2 feet from a back wall and can be placed about 8 or 9 foot apart.

So i've briefly heard the Kralks and they sound gorgeous the problem is they are out of production at the moment due to a shortage of bass drivers and tweeters, i've been told i'm probably going to have to wait 6 to 8 months for a pair. Now to the Kef's which are old in anyone's books so i'm going to have to look at getting a good 2nd hand pair and even then they will probably need a crossover rebuild at the least, plus i'm not sure if they would be suitable for the room, however i've always wanted these ever since my dad had a pair on trial from gibsons audio back in the 70's.

My budget is about £1500 to £2k

[DiveDeepDog]

If you like what your current speakers do...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Velodyne-SPL-1200-Ultra-Subwoofer/264709649170?hash=item3da1ecb312:g:8u4AAOSwrENeog5 W

* missed the collection only, stranger deliveries have been done:D

A little closer?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Velodyne-SPL-800-Ultra-Optimum-Active-Subwoofer-Gloss-Black/283815682674?hash=item4214bba272:g:VSQAAOSwDdxebgH j

I've got DD12, its older than these Ultra models, I strongly suspect similar performance with better integration. They have very good auto setup.

[Pigmy Pony]

+1 for Mark's suggestion. The 'tunability' of good quality subs should make getting the bass right less of a lottery. Your budget should get 2 decent ones.

[Jac Hawk]

Never thought of subs and yes they will be easier to tune i guess, but and yes there's always a but, a couple more boxes into not a massive room and they won't get rid of the thump thump thump sound that you get when small drivers try to do bass as in the MA's they would be paired with.

[DiveDeepDog]

Not sure on your amps, but the Velodyne can be used between pre/power and cuts bass @ 80hz, its rudimentary DSP engine and gives the main speakers an easier ride.

Nothings ever simple though, and sometimes a change is what we want. Not heard either the Kef's or Kralks beyond Proggy liking his :thumbsup:

[Macca]

I had a listen to the Kralk TDB12 but it was at a show with an amp I don't care for (EAR). Even so you can't fault them for the money.

The KEFs are way better speakers though. Not surprising really they'd be at least ten times the price of the TDB12 if they were still made. Assuming you could get them already restored or do it yourself.

Personally I'd consider some of the big Focals from the late 90s or early 2000s. Should be in your budget, Big Focals lose their value even faster than big Peugeots do.

[Floyddroid]

I'm looking for advice and recommendations here, basically i want a bit more bass in my life i'm currently running a pair of Monitor Audio 705 PMC speakers which are slim floor standers with 2 x 6 inch drivers and a metal dome tweeter, the mid and top end out of these is great but i think the bass could be improved on.

My listening room is in the basement so no windows, it's about 15 foot square and a low ceiling about 6'4", the floor is carpeted and the room is sonically dead zero echo, due to the size of the room the speakers need to go no more than 2 feet from a back wall and can be placed about 8 or 9 foot apart.

So i've briefly heard the Kralks and they sound gorgeous the problem is they are out of production at the moment due to a shortage of bass drivers and tweeters, i've been told i'm probably going to have to wait 6 to 8 months for a pair. Now to the Kef's which are old in anyone's books so i'm going to have to look at getting a good 2nd hand pair and even then they will probably need a crossover rebuild at the least, plus i'm not sure if they would be suitable for the room, however i've always wanted these ever since my dad had a pair on trial from gibsons audio back in the 70's.

My budget is about £1500 to £2k

PM me Mike

[VanDerGraaf]

Big Focals lose their value even faster than big Peugeots do.

Love the analogy- perfect. Any models spring to mind Martin?

Mike, the 105.4 is probably fantastic, but I wouldn't be expecting much deep bass from it- certainly not to the depths of its predecessors 105.1 and .2 (I believe you are acquainted with them).

[Macca]

Love the analogy- perfect. Any models spring to mind Martin?

Mike, the 105.4 is probably fantastic, but I wouldn't be expecting much deep bass from it- certainly not to the depths of its predecessors 105.1 and .2 (I believe you are acquainted with them).

Well I've got the Electra 926, best speaker I've owned by a country mile, out of the dozens I've had over the years. In fact one of the best speakers I've ever had a listen to, not just owned. Date from the late 1990s. They've done lots of iterations since, I think the latest one is the Kanta 2 but they are all basically the same design.

Superb midrange, close to electrostatics, and not so big and bassy that they won't work in a typical 16x12 room. Will show up inadequate amplifiers though which I think is why Focals in general have a poor rep on forums and so don't sell easily.

[Jac Hawk]

i'll be using a primaluna evo 400

[Macca]

Valve amp -hard to predict what the outcome would be then. Ideally you don't want a speaker with big swings in the impedance. Although if it does the business with the Monitor Audios then it would probably be fine with Focals too.

[Jac Hawk]

Valve amp -hard to predict what the outcome would be then. Ideally you don't want a speaker with big swings in the impedance. Although if it does the business with the Monitor Audios then it would probably be fine with Focals too.

It has plenty of punch Martin, i'll have a look at the focals, my thinking was a big bass bin so the Kralks would be spot on as they have a 12" and the Kef well i have a sweet spot for them i would be tempted by the 105.2 but a 12" bextrene cone with known issues and 40 years of service would push me towards the 105.4

[Pigmy Pony]

Focal Kantas in Private Exhibitions. Go on you know you want to :dance:

[Jac Hawk]

Focal Kantas in Private Exhibitions. Go on you know you want to :dance:

Bit too rich for me at the moment, just spent a load on an amp

[Macca]

It has plenty of punch Martin, i'll have a look at the focals, my thinking was a big bass bin so the Kralks would be spot on as they have a 12" and the Kef well i have a sweet spot for them i would be tempted by the 105.2 but a 12" bextrene cone with known issues and 40 years of service would push me towards the 105.4

Probably a better bet. The KEF Reference series from the 1990s were very good too, you sometimes see them pretty cheap (for what they are).

[VanDerGraaf]

Well I've got the Electra 926, best speaker I've owned by a country mile, out of the dozens I've had over the years. In fact one of the best speakers I've ever had a listen to, not just owned. Date from the late 1990s. They've done lots of iterations since, I think the latest one is the Kanta 2 but they are all basically the same design.

Superb midrange, close to electrostatics, and not so big and bassy that they won't work in a typical 16x12 room. Will show up inadequate amplifiers though which I think is why Focals in general have a poor rep on forums and so don't sell easily.

Interesting Martin. Not wanting to derail the thread but I have always had half an eye on bigger Focals but always got put off a little by claims of searing treble. I should know by now to be cautious about accepting various claims like that.

[VanDerGraaf]

It has plenty of punch Martin, i'll have a look at the focals, my thinking was a big bass bin so the Kralks would be spot on as they have a 12" and the Kef well i have a sweet spot for them i would be tempted by the 105.2 but a 12" bextrene cone with known issues and 40 years of service would push me towards the 105.4

I've had 2 pains of the original 105- didn't have any of the cone sag problems. The French guy I bought the first ones from thought it was very rare and a lot of other owners report no issues.

I think the 105.4 probably wins out in the tweeter department, probably sounds slightly more modern.

I would suggest the KEF 107, ultra deep bass plus all that is good about the 105.4, but in this cellar environment with low ceiling I don't know how they would work out.....the bass exits near the top of the speaker box.

[Pigmy Pony]

Bit too rich for me at the moment, just spent a load on an amp

Yeah the price of them Focals sits somewhere between :eek: and :eek::eek:

With the ceiling being quite low I just wondered if maybe you could have problems controlling the bass, hence the suggestions about trying subs. From what I've read the Kralks with 12" bass can overpower smaller rooms, and even Mr Kralk (can't remember his proper name) would probably say as much.

Very much a 'try before you buy', which I know is easier said than done at the mo.

[Macca]

Yeah the price of them Focals sits somewhere between :eek: and :eek::eek:

With the ceiling being quite low I just wondered if maybe you could have problems controlling the bass, hence the suggestions about trying subs. From what I've read the Kralks with 12" bass can overpower smaller rooms, and even Mr Kralk (can't remember his proper name) would probably say as much.

.

Size of the bass driver has nothing to do with how much bass there is. I've got some Akai speakers with 15 inch bass units, people who have heard them comment on the lack of deep bass. It all depends on the design. I had a listen to the Kralks and there were no issues with too much bass, or bass boom, and the room was not large. A lot of these problems are due to people needing their speakers to be placed right up against the wall or rammed into the corners.

Most speakers are not designed for that sort of placement. Some are, the key is to do the homework and choose wisely. This is where the oft derided 'graphs and measurements' can come in handy.

[Pigmy Pony]

Size of the bass driver has nothing to do with how much bass there is. I've got some Akai speakers with 15 inch bass units, people who have heard them comment on the lack of deep bass. It all depends on the design. I had a listen to the Kralks and there were no issues with too much bass, or bass boom, and the room was not large. A lot of these problems are due to people needing their speakers to be placed right up against the wall or rammed into the corners.

Most speakers are not designed for that sort of placement. Some are, the key is to do the homework and choose wisely. This is where the oft derided 'graphs and measurements' can come in handy.

No, I agree with the bit in bold, I'd just worded my comment badly. I said "Kralks with 12" bass" because I couldn't remember the model name.

I visited Mike's house a while ago, and while it's a very nice dedicated listening room, the ceiling is rather low. And Mikes comment about space being a bit tight as far as putting in subs is concerned, suggests the room might be smaller than I remember

[Jac Hawk]

No, I agree with the bit in bold, I'd just worded my comment badly. I said "Kralks with 12" bass" because I couldn't remember the model name.

I visited Mike's house a while ago, and while it's a very nice dedicated listening room, the ceiling is rather low. And Mikes comment about space being a bit tight as far as putting in subs is concerned, suggests the room might be smaller than I remember

It's 12" x 12" but as you said Steve the ceiling is low, i don't know if that makes it feel smaller but it's a good sounding space if that makes sense, things tend to sound tight and precise.

It's all academic now as i've agreed on a pair of speakers that i'll pick up next month, i'll post some picks once i get them

[Macca]

I can't wait until next month to find out! At least tell us what they are.

[MDS]

Probably a better bet. The KEF Reference series from the 1990s were very good too, you sometimes see them pretty cheap (for what they are).

Interesting
Will these need recone of internal basunits?
I've read older 104 etc..run foam woofers internal

[Macca]

Interesting
Will these need recone of internal basunits?
I've read older 104 etc..run foam woofers internal

Probably but seen them for sale with it already done.

[Jac Hawk]

So now i'm the proud owner of a pair of Kralk Audio TDB12 speakers, first impressions are very good indeed, the ability to adjust the MF and HF is a very handy feature and the the overall build is excellent.

i'll post more when i've had a chance to have a good listen......

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49923610373_120bae5de3_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j4zy3Z)IMG_2309 (https://flic.kr/p/2j4zy3Z) by mike davis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185433896@N07/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49924436127_ec42bf148f_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j4DMw8)IMG_2307 (https://flic.kr/p/2j4DMw8) by mike davis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185433896@N07/), on Flickr

[Macca]

Very tasty. I thought they were good when I heard them.

[Jac Hawk]

What can I say, wow they put a smile on your face and like to be played loud, I mean really loud, the bass control and extension is fantastic, just what I was hoping for and as I've said the mid and high frequency can be adjusted to suite your taste and room, stereo image is precise and the soundstage is big really big and sound seems to come from 4 or 5 feet past the speakers.

Luckily the mid range which my Monitor Audios are so good at is as good on the Kralks and voices sound they are in the room and stand out from the music. As you can see from the photos they are about 7 feet apart, about 6 inches from the wall and toed in slightly which is what the instructions recommend.

Up to now I've played the following :

Bob Marley Legend
David Bowie Legacy
Quincy Jones Back on the Block
Bad Company Bad Company
Fox Fox
Marvin Gaye Trouble Man

[Pigmy Pony]

They look great Mike, and I look forward to hearing them one day, along with the Primaluna. One other thing - you've had that print on the wall far too long, and I've a nice space for it in my listening room :D

[Jac Hawk]

They look great Mike, and I look forward to hearing them one day, along with the Primaluna. One other thing - you've had that print on the wall far too long, and I've a nice space for it in my listening room :D

You're welcome anytime Steve, Ha!! it's a cool painting i picked it up in New Orleans last time i was there, it won't be leaving my wall sorry mate.