Which one to upgrade: cart. or phono stage?

[Iceman16]

Im currently using an Ortofon Quintet black-s cartridge and Pro-Ject tube box ds phono stage.Which do you think I should upgrade first?

Thanks

[Firebottle]

Most certainly the phono stage.

Check this one out, you won't get better unless you spend mega money, even then it's doubtful.
https://audioaddictsforum.com/thread/1209/bigbottle-phonostage-design-pictures-more?page=3

[Iceman16]

Thanks. I need to get more suggestions from others who are not on trade.

[scotty38]

Can't really advise (which is of no use, I realise that) but as and when I upgrade my phono stage I'll be struggling to see past a Tron Convergence. Might be worth having a look at...

[AJSki2fly]

Im currently using an Ortofon Quintet black-s cartridge and Pro-Ject tube box ds phono stage.Which do you think I should upgrade first?

Thanks

Firstly how long have you had the Quintet and how many hours has it done? As I understand it, it is a fairly neutral and detailed cartridge, but it can be tricky to setup right. So if it has plenty of life left, then I would not necessarily replace it.

The Pro-Ject tube box ds is a pretty well respected and versatile phono stage from a matching point of view, if you were to replace it then I think you might need to consider spending quite a lot more to improve on it, it also probably compliments the Ortofon quite well.

What arm/turntable do you have as your choice in cartridge will be impacted to an extent by this as well?

Finally what are you hoping or looking to improve in sound etc?

[Iceman16]

I use the Quintet black cart and phono stage with Project Rpm5 carbon deck. Probably less than 200 hrs used. But there’s a new deck on the way with a tonearm like this (Jelco)?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49753737886_9c28788950_c_d.jpg

[Firebottle]

Thanks. I need to get more suggestions from others who are not on trade.

That isn't a trade connection, it is a design done via DiyAudio, a collaborative effort.
You, or others, can build one for under £400 and you won't get better performance below £4k retail.

[Iceman16]

which model of Jelco it is ?
Your cartridge should be good for another 300 hours before it starts exhibiting some level of distortion , why not try existing phonostage and cartridge on new turntable , spend some time setting it up and see what you don't like about

I think its the Jelco SA 250

[Iceman16]

Jelco SA 250 has effective mass of 18g if I'm correct , your Quintet Black weights 9g and has compliance 15 x10-6 - you are going to be slightly below 8Hz resonance - not ideal but I'd try if works if doesn't look for cartridge with compliance not higher than 10x10-6 and leave phonostage upgrade for later
The one on its way is like this.

https://www.classaaudio.com.au/products/1845-transrotor-zet-3-turntable.html

[Iceman16]

Nice turntable btw
Thanks Slav. I may put a budget for a phono stage around £1k (new or s/h). Im not a techie guy so diy is a no for me. I have a few in mind like: Tom Evans microgroove+ x/ Pathos in the groove/ Gold Note PH10/ Vertere phono1

[Firebottle]

at least you're funny

I love how you are so disbelieving.

I have been designing valve phono stages for the last 7 years so I know a bit about performance.
My design incorporates unique design factors. Retail prices include a lot of marketing and manufacturing overheads.

If you choose not to believe me it's your loss. I'm not exaggerating.

Addendum.
It will bear all this lot, Whest , Tron , Trilogy also Graham Slee

[p147]

I love how you are so disbelieving.

I have been designing valve phono stages for the last 7 years so I know a bit about performance.
My design incorporates unique design factors. Retail prices include a lot of marketing and manufacturing overheads.

If you choose not to believe me it's your loss. I'm not exaggerating.

Addendum.
It will bear all this lot, Whest , Tron , Trilogy also Graham Slee

HI,
Very Nice.
I might be very interested in one of your phono stages it certainly looks the business, However I have just bought a Clearaudio phonostage basic+ which sounds very good, Do you think your new design will be significantly better? Do you have a photo of the finished product and any idea when they will be rolling out?
I have an Audio Technica AT-ART9 MC Phono Cartridge on a Pioneer wand.

[Firebottle]

Now you're talking, Paradise and Vida are extremely good stages. How much would a Paradise retail for if it was a commercial offering?

You are now in the £4k bracket and the Bigbottle phono stage isn't an 'upgrade' as you put it, I do take offence.
Why can't you accept that there are very talented 'one man band' designers out there.

You need to hear one against your two examples, I guarantee you would be surprised.

[Made in 1968]

Didnt know you could just buy the PCB's!

[karma67]

Now you're talking, Paradise and Vida are extremely good stages. How much would a Paradise retail for if it was a commercial offering?
.

to be fair alan thats a moot point as the paradise was/is a design done via DiyAudio, a collaborative effort the same as yours and oli's is.

[guy]

NVA phono 2 with two power supplies?

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43156-My-thoughts-on-the-NVA-Phono-2-MM-Stage/page3

[antonio]

Mr Firebottles recommendation is sound as is Guy's NVA 2 in the above post. With the NVA you can purchase with one power supply and upgrade later with one more. They do have to be either MM or MC. I use one with two power supplies and think it's a great phonostage. Nice turntable by the way. Transrotor would definitely be on my short list should I ever upgrade.
Are you going for the standard version or any of the upgrades. I would love to hear it with the TMD Bearing

[topoxforddoc]

Can't really advise (which is of no use, I realise that) but as and when I upgrade my phono stage I'll be struggling to see past a Tron Convergence. Might be worth having a look at...

TRON Convergence is a great choice

[mikeyb]

Only buy what you can demo/try at home in your system.

Graham Slee, NVA and Ryan Labs are just three of many that will do loans. Had all three here and 'personally' I preferred the Ryan Labs.

I've also tried on home demo from local dealer a Trigon Vanguard II ( very good ), Whest 2.0 ( didn't like ).

I've owned Firebottle Vivant, Trilogy 907, TQ Claymore amp with built in phono, Trilogy not surprisingly was the best of that bunch, but then again it's megabucks and hard to find.

So you can see I've been through a few which should tell you that they're ALL different, and only you can decide which one you like.

Set a budget, if you can't demo or borrow to try at home then buy used and sell on at very little or no loss if you buy sensibly.

Phono stages are a minefield, good luck, you're gonna need it [emoji23]

[Iceman16]

Just bought an ex demo Jelco 850s to replace the SA250.

[Lurch]

There maybe a Vida coming up for sale soonish, if the owner takes my Tron Seven Basic mm of me. (will loan him my MFA SUT for the time being)

[Iceman16]

Now time to upgrade the phono stage. Ordered the Bigbottle mk3 from Oli (Bigman80).

[Mikeandvan]

I'd love to play a trick on an audiophile, change their mega bucks phono stage over for a cheapy one and see if they notice. :lol:
I would absolutely agree that upgrades are often downgrades, or both. After all I've just 'upgraded' my amp/speakers and it sounds shit! With alot of music, but great with Jazz! To me spending over a few hundred quid on a stylus detracts from the pleasure of literally throwing a record on the TT when lightly pissed, and may'be the arm goes skidding back and forth, that hurts, but you know at a £100 a pop for a replacement styli for my MP200, its ok, saves faffing around sending a £2k + cart off for re bulidng only for it to sound meh.

[Pigmy Pony]

What would put me off buying a mega-bucks cartridge is calculating cost divided by lifespan to work out how much each record is costing to play :eek:

[Iceman16]

Bigbottle mk3 + psu arrived..

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50222725606_cc11d50738_o_d.jpg

[Lurch]

How does it sound?

[Iceman16]

How does it sound?

Hi John, Well first impression awesome! Thanks

[Bigbird]

Hey mate glad to hear you are enjoying the new stage. I listened to your clip on AA forum and it’s making some sweet sounds.

Just thought I would add that this is a SERIOUS phono stage for the money involved. £1250 for a fully built top spec job with all the best sounding parts and components available for the job, all ultra matched to 0.1% tolerance or better, latest JFET upgrade board ,top spec Clairty Caps and telefunken valves . And if you are handy enough you could build one yourself for a fair bit cheaper. I took a leap of faith and it paid off .

I had the latest whest 2.2 with improved discreet stage which some believe to be the best sub 2k phono around (and it’s 300 quid more expensive ) and was worried that it would be a bit of a sideways step at best as it’s a lovely phonostage, but, the new BB3 is in a different league. I’d guess you would have to go at least a step or possibly two up the Whest ladder to get this type of performance and then you are taking 3k+

It throws a deeper wider soundstage, more details , and you really hear the production of the tracks and how they are layered more. It’s quite remarkable for the outlay and a real bargain. I would recommend it in a heartbeat .

I swapped back and forth a few times and it was quite clear each time that there was a significant difference (even the missus could tell and she’s usually deaf to my Hifi changes) so I put the Whest up for sale the next day and haven’t looked back. I’m really enjoying the BB3 and from what I’m reading around , everybody else is too. There are also a handful of people that now think it beats their own paradise stages, but I can’t comment on that as I’ve not had the pleasure of hearing one.


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[Iceman16]

Hey mate glad to hear you are enjoying the new stage. I listened to your clip on AA forum and it’s making some sweet sounds.

Just thought I would add that this is a SERIOUS phono stage for the money involved. £1250 for a fully built top spec job with all the best sounding parts and components available for the job, all ultra matched to 0.1% tolerance or better, latest JFET upgrade board ,top spec Clairty Caps and telefunken valves . And if you are handy enough you could build one yourself for a fair bit cheaper. I took a leap of faith and it paid off .

I had the latest whest 2.2 with improved discreet stage which some believe to be the best sub 2k phono around (and it’s 300 quid more expensive ) and was worried that it would be a bit of a sideways step at best as it’s a lovely phonostage, but, the new BB3 is in a different league. I’d guess you would have to go at least a step or possibly two up the Whest ladder to get this type of performance and then you are taking 3k+

It throws a deeper wider soundstage, more details , and you really hear the production of the tracks and how they are layered more. It’s quite remarkable for the outlay and a real bargain. I would recommend it in a heartbeat .

I swapped back and forth a few times and it was quite clear each time that there was a significant difference (even the missus could tell and she’s usually deaf to my Hifi changes) so I put the Whest up for sale the next day and haven’t looked back. I’m really enjoying the BB3 and from what I’m reading around , everybody else is too. There are also a handful of people that now think it beats their own paradise stages, but I can’t comment on that as I’ve not had the pleasure of hearing one.


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Hi Karl,
Thanks for your input mate. Yes Im enjoying the BB3 sound even for the first few days of owning it. I think Oli mentioned you to me which also inspired me of getting one. It’ll probably get even better after a few weeks of running in lol..Cheers!

[Bigbird]

Hi Karl,
Thanks for your input mate. Yes Im enjoying the BB3 sound even for the first few days of owning it. I think Oli mentioned you to me which also inspired me of getting one. It’ll probably get even better after a few weeks of running in lol..Cheers!

Great stuff , and yes as with most things , it does open up after a few hours of burning in.

Mine took about two weeks of being on every night for several hours to hit its peak but it was great from the get go.

Alan and Oli have done a great job so I thought it would be nice to give them some recognition too.


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