An experiment in amplification

[Haselsh1]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49739382876_d7b489bf24_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iMikCQ)Crown XLS1002 (https://flic.kr/p/2iMikCQ) by Shaun Haselden (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156648964@N02/), on Flickr


An experiment in amplification:

Some of you will know that I have been largely valve powered since 1997 when I had built a World Audio Design 300B PP power amp which I used with a World Audio Design KLP-1 preamp. There have been a few changes since then but four years ago I settled on a PrimLuna Prologue 3 preamp and Dialogue Premium power amp. The power amp runs EL34's by JJ in the form of the II's and the preamp is all JJ. Up until two months ago I used a pair of Spendor S3/5R2's but happend upon a dealer who was quick to demo a pair of KEF R5's, a make I have a fondness for having used KEF Q500's for a number of years.

Some of you will also know that my choice of music is around 90% electronic. So what the hell am I doing with a 40 Watt valve amp..?

As an experiment I just happened to buy a Crown XLS1002 Class D power amp of around quite a lot of Wattage and high damping factor relative to the valve amp. I was convinced that a £320 tranny amp was going to be just a toy when compared to a £2.5k valve power amp but my mind was set slightly adrift by the sound of this thing. First impression..? Huge bass grip and slam. Big dramatic dynamics. Clear precise, finely etched sound. Crystal clear high frequencies.

I experimented again and bought another. Bridged and mono'd, once again the sound was extremely good only now I had this immense 3D stereo soundstage. I have never before heard a soundstage so massive since starting this journey in 1979. I have now tried CD's by Shpongle, Younger Brother, Underworld and Mr Scruff through to Tina Arena and Ezio. So how good is it all..? It is bloody good for an outlay of 640 quid..! Yeah, it has a few shortcomings. There is a classic lower treble/upper mid grain that tranny amps tend to produce so it does not have the liquid purity of valves but then of course, its not valve ! The sound is bold, brassy, clinical and forceful; everything it should be with electronic music. Does it suit everything I listen to..? No. It does not. So what about the valve power amp..? It is currently for sale on ebay. If it sells it sells, if it doesn't then I get to keep it. I win either way.

The valve amp suits jazz and female vocal more than anything else I listen to. In triode mode playing Cassandra Wilson's 'Strange Fruit' the sound out of the R5's is just bloody sublime but it lacks emotion and drive. It lacks that emotive anticipation that I now have. However things end up at the moment I have once again been bloody lucky to try this out. The difference has been amazing.

[Mand]

Nice to hear of a valve aficionado trying class D (and liking it).
Where did you find the Crown amps, they must be rare?

[Macca]

Nice to hear of a valve aficionado trying class D (and liking it).
Where did you find the Crown amps, they must be rare?

No you can still buy Crown, they have them on Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crown-XLS-1502-Power-Amplifier-Black/dp/B016BSHI04/ref=sr_1_3?crid=9C0LUJUTXRXQ&dchild=1&keywords=crown+amplifier&qid=1586111462&sprefix=crown+amp%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-3

[Jac Hawk]

Crown make some good pro amps we use em a lot at work you're right though they don't have the finesse of valves but they certainly pack a punch.

[Haselsh1]

Yes Mike they certainly pack a punch. Lovely strong slam and fast dynamics but nowhere near the finesse of the valve power.

[Jac Hawk]

Nice to hear of a valve aficionado trying class D (and liking it).
Where did you find the Crown amps, they must be rare?


That one is still a current model, they are part of Harman JBL group which was bought outright a couple of years ago by Samsung

[Haselsh1]

Mandeep so easy to get hold of but maybe not at the price I paid.

[Jac Hawk]

If anyone wants any pro gear btw drop me a line

[hifinutt]

watched a video of the crown amp vs the xtz a3 class d amp . very interesting to read your thoughts shaun , you have summed it up well

2 weeks ago had the mighty silbatone 109 valve hybrid here, wow , that is enthralling with vocals , SO real and what a pleasure to try it with the horns and tannoys for a week


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49644524001_77158a0139_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iCVaoZ)P1060943 (https://flic.kr/p/2iCVaoZ) by [/url], on Flickr

pic here with the smaller asx 50 icepower monoblocks

these icepower monoblocks sound really good for the money , [ a fraction of the silbatone !!] . they are certainly nowhere near as good with vocals but with many other genres they are just delightful . powerful , warm , engaging

so last week got a bel canto ref500s class d power amp [2.5k] , that is also similar but the live sound with the taus is very engaging indeed. again , nowhere near as good the silbatone on vocals but with many other genres its captivating . using this with a bel canto pre 3 vbs which gels so well with class d amps


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49713640962_4ce2edbfba_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060997 (https://flic.kr/p/2iK2psJ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

glad the crown is doing so well , just shows you don`t have to be rich to enjoy great sound

[hifinutt]

one thing shaun , can you hear the fans ? we use some american amps in a pro audio set up elsewhere and the fans are very very noisy !!!

[CageyH]

My latest experiment with Amplifiers has taken me to the Neurochrome Modulus 86. A class AB amplifier.
I am very impressed with it, so much so I am starting to build the Modulus 686. It was either this, or a Benchmark AHB2, but they are like unicorn droppings second hand.

[struth]

Been using Pro amps for years. The fans you get used to tbh, or you can either mod to run slower or change fans to silent versions if it bugs you

[Jac Hawk]

Well they are designed to be rack mounted in an enclosure with a whole load of other stuff, Grant is correct though you can swap them out for something a bit less noisy

[Pharos]

Refreshing to see a valve man try a class D amp, and to praise it.

The problem I have, and I hope many will agree, is that the differences are not easy to evaluate.

Which one is nearer accurate? Does the valve omit something genuinely there on the recording which the D shows, or does the D add something which is an artefact?

[Roy S]

I used a bridged pair of XLS1500s for a while. They produced a sound whilst instantly likeable got tiresome in time, the sound seemed to lack substance.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200405/18b1334e4078068acfd4568186b789b7.jpg

[Haselsh1]

Phil, regarding the fans, no you can't hear them unless you are within maybe three feet of the amps.

[Haselsh1]

Refreshing to see a valve man try a class D amp, and to praise it.

The problem I have, and I hope many will agree, is that the differences are not easy to evaluate.

Which one is nearer accurate? Does the valve omit something genuinely there on the recording which the D shows, or does the D add something which is an artefact?

Now then Dennis, a very interesting point and one I have addressed before. How do you define accurate when your music is synthesised and electronic..?

Your point is I think that both apply. The valve amp has the most wonderful vocal sound but is, I think, totally inaccurate. There is a sense of realism that is almost breathtaking but little or no ultra low frequencies so crucial for electronic music. The Class D amps on the other hand have what appears to be power over the entire frequency spectrum. It is almost as if the valve power is running a band pass filter allowing only midrange sounds to pass. The Crown amps clearly add something to the sound and vocals are not realistic as in the case of the valves but the Crown amps are just so exciting to listen to and clearly include the things that the valve amp struggles with.

Foregoing the accuracy thing though which is more exciting to listen to..? Very obviously the Crown amps. A while ago I was convinced that I had lost my 'connection' with music and mentioned to Sue, my other half that I may sell up the entire music system. The sound was just not as I remembered it. Well it is now. I now have back that sense of connection, the very feeling that music creates in your head. That sort of 'Jesus that was good' kind of feeling.

Is it 'hi-fi'..? I don't give a shit if it is or isn't. Hi-Fi suggests a connection with reality..? What is the reality of synthesised music being put through a hulking great PA system because without the PA system there would be no sound at all. So, flat, undynamic sound or fast paced OMG listen to that type of sound..?

I gave up on the one-up-man-ship of hi-fi years ago but really did love the valve sound. I think I tired of that sound without even realising it. Something has changed and I think it is me.

[VanDerGraaf]

If people want to find these kind of amps easily (pro audio), here are some sites to check out (just search them).

dv247

gear4music

gak

andertons

All good reputable shops with excellent service and online ordering/delivery.

[Haselsh1]

I used a bridged pair of XLS1500s for a while. They produced a sound whilst instantly likeable got tiresome in time, the sound seemed to lack substance.

Roy, not sure what you mean by substance but my Crown amps definitely lack a sense of refinement when compared to my valve pre/power setup. Ultimately though I just cannot listen to electronic music that has little in the way of bass extension and bass slam and power. Surely music should make you feel motivated and excited in the way a nightclub would..? If not then why are we listening..? OK, if your requirement is for chilled out classical with no sense of irritation then maybe a valve system would be spot on. There are times when I do not want gut thumping low frequencies and I don't at the moment know how I will deal with that but for now I do still have the PrimaLuna power.

[Haselsh1]

If people want to find these kind of amps easily (pro audio), here are some sites to check out (just search them).

dv247

gear4music

gak

andertons

All good reputable shops with excellent service and online ordering/delivery.

Gotta say that I love Gear4Music in York.

[Gazjam]

Good thread.

Been curious about power amps since selling on my 300B SET and I looked at the Crown amps.
On a YouTube Audio channel I follow, the guy there gives his thoughts on the current Crown Class D amps.
He really likes them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUIeoqlzdU

[Ali Tait]

Now then Dennis, a very interesting point and one I have addressed before. How do you define accurate when your music is synthesised and electronic..?

Your point is I think that both apply. The valve amp has the most wonderful vocal sound but is, I think, totally inaccurate. There is a sense of realism that is almost breathtaking but little or no ultra low frequencies so crucial for electronic music. The Class D amps on the other hand have what appears to be power over the entire frequency spectrum. It is almost as if the valve power is running a band pass filter allowing only midrange sounds to pass. The Crown amps clearly add something to the sound and vocals are not realistic as in the case of the valves but the Crown amps are just so exciting to listen to and clearly include the things that the valve amp struggles with.

Foregoing the accuracy thing though which is more exciting to listen to..? Very obviously the Crown amps. A while ago I was convinced that I had lost my 'connection' with music and mentioned to Sue, my other half that I may sell up the entire music system. The sound was just not as I remembered it. Well it is now. I now have back that sense of connection, the very feeling that music creates in your head. That sort of 'Jesus that was good' kind of feeling.

Is it 'hi-fi'..? I don't give a shit if it is or isn't. Hi-Fi suggests a connection with reality..? What is the reality of synthesised music being put through a hulking great PA system because without the PA system there would be no sound at all. So, flat, undynamic sound or fast paced OMG listen to that type of sound..?

I gave up on the one-up-man-ship of hi-fi years ago but really did love the valve sound. I think I tired of that sound without even realising it. Something has changed and I think it is me.

The solution would appear to be to run speakers actively, use a nice valve amp for mids and top, and a Class D amp for the bass. That's how my Bastanis are designed to be driven.

[Haselsh1]

The solution would appear to be to run speakers actively, use a nice valve amp for mids and top, and a Class D amp for the bass. That's how my Bastanis are designed to be driven.

Ali, the best system I have ever heard was back around 1983 and was active. Although it didn't use any valve devices it was incredible. Mission speakers and active crossovers with amplification by Crimson Electric. I think that the speakers were 720's but it was a long time ago.

[Pharos]

Now then Dennis, a very interesting point and one I have addressed before. How do you define accurate when your music is synthesised and electronic..?

Your point is I think that both apply. The valve amp has the most wonderful vocal sound but is, I think, totally inaccurate. There is a sense of realism that is almost breathtaking but little or no ultra low frequencies so crucial for electronic music. The Class D amps on the other hand have what appears to be power over the entire frequency spectrum. It is almost as if the valve power is running a band pass filter allowing only midrange sounds to pass. The Crown amps clearly add something to the sound and vocals are not realistic as in the case of the valves but the Crown amps are just so exciting to listen to and clearly include the things that the valve amp struggles with.

Foregoing the accuracy thing though which is more exciting to listen to..? Very obviously the Crown amps. A while ago I was convinced that I had lost my 'connection' with music and mentioned to Sue, my other half that I may sell up the entire music system. The sound was just not as I remembered it. Well it is now. I now have back that sense of connection, the very feeling that music creates in your head. That sort of 'Jesus that was good' kind of feeling.

Is it 'hi-fi'..? I don't give a shit if it is or isn't. Hi-Fi suggests a connection with reality..? What is the reality of synthesised music being put through a hulking great PA system because without the PA system there would be no sound at all. So, flat, undynamic sound or fast paced OMG listen to that type of sound..?

I gave up on the one-up-man-ship of hi-fi years ago but really did love the valve sound. I think I tired of that sound without even realising it. Something has changed and I think it is me.

Yes an end to pissing contests, not only in Hi-Fi, but many other areas for us all I hope.

On reflection, for me the excitement has been in a sense of discovery which includes the nature of the art in both words and music. At the time of major movement in Hi-Fi, maybe 45 years ago we could upgrade the system and hear more of the art, but that has diminished now because of the gradual progress, but we do get slight accentuations with changes of gear.

There have ben times when I have thought, even recently, that I would get rid of it all because I do not get the really major 'buzzes' of breakthroughs which I had all those years ago, but, I have grown psychologically and emotionally, and learnt a great deal in that period, and so those epiphanies are far less frequent.

Now I'm in much more of a 'monitoring' state of mind, observing what has been done, and comparing artists, and this may seem to be not a pleasure, but that applies to much of adult life IMO, wisdom allows us to 'step back' and think a little.

I am aspiring to write my own stuff, and my music collection is almost entirely of my own historic past, that of previously impacting music which has effected my development, and nothing much captures or enraptures me now.

This applies to much of life; perhaps your first fresh wild strawberry, of your first curry, or first wholemeal organic cake after years of processed rubbish. Your first car which was not a constant process of maintenance to keep going.

Major recent understandings in how music works in our psychology has changed my relation with it, but it is still a wonderful medium.

[Haselsh1]

It was my intention to re-valve the PrimaLuna with KT120's but obviously I went in the opposite direction. At the moment, a week or so later, I am still OK with my decision.

[Haselsh1]

Dennis, I have to say that it has all caught up with me also. Motorcycles used to completely overpower me with their drama but now leave me absolutely cold. The new stuff is nothing more than sanitised blandness. Photography is the same unless you still chase silver halide/film technology. Cars..? The same also. Sanitised blandness. There is of course the possibility that I am just getting old.

[Ali Tait]

Ali, the best system I have ever heard was back around 1983 and was active. Although it didn't use any valve devices it was incredible. Mission speakers and active crossovers with amplification by Crimson Electric. I think that the speakers were 720's but it was a long time ago.

Well I certainly like what the Bastanis do. I’m using an OTL for the mid and top (200hz and up), and a 3000w Behringer on the 18” bass driver (200hz and down). Gives the best of both worlds to my ears. Huge slam if it’s there in the music, but with all the soundstaging and delicacy an OTL can bring to the party.

[paulf-2007]

Well that made a nice change to read a thread not filled with pretentious bullshit. Agreed with most of it but not all, but don't ask me what I didn't agree with because the old senior citizen problem of not remembering something I read five minutes ago has kicked in.

[Pharos]

Dennis, I have to say that it has all caught up with me also. Motorcycles used to completely overpower me with their drama but now leave me absolutely cold. The new stuff is nothing more than sanitised blandness. Photography is the same unless you still chase silver halide/film technology. Cars..? The same also. Sanitised blandness. There is of course the possibility that I am just getting old.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it has all caught up with me".

I alluded to changes in my outlook, but you seem to infer some sort of correction to an earlier wrong path.
I made mistakes in my life path, juvenile delinquent, neglecting studies, pot and the hippie movement, but that latter had some validity to its protesting and complaints, they now the preoccupations in society at large.

I too had a series of bikes, after teen years of cycle racing. A Triumph Daytona 100, chopped, and later two large BMWs in the 80s, my being a romantic and loving the speed and acceleration. But now that I can afford whatever I want, it has lost its appeal, partly because I do not have the need to get away from central London to the coast, where I now live.

Blandness does seem to be conveyed by technological improvement, the BMs were very fast quiet and efficient, and the earlier Triumph very noisy and the fuel tank would come off because of the vibration, and it always leaked oil, even after new seals.

Perhaps blandness is the achievement of objectivity, the removal of all the irrelevant, (noise).

Blandness in cars, yes, especially the 20 or so SUVs competitively trying to corner the market, and designed to seduce the narcissism of the populace; they spend thousands on the 3D form.

Yes I am getting old, but it is important to differentiate between age and maturity. If I now buy the latest BM, capable of 199mph, where can I use it's capability, and what if I drop a 550lb bike on my hips at my age?

With my equipment now I am in analytical mode, hearing faults in recording that have never appeared before, and this is not conducive to a sense of pleasurable indulgence, but of facing the realities of life, and it is only in so doing that we can be effective. Richness in life I must find not in passive receptivity, but elsewhere, creativity.

I also think that we have these 'perfect moments', times of great pleasure, usually in Hi-0Fi when the sound is the best we've heard, especially considering what we listened to as a child. As the equipment improves that has to diminish, and we have progressed in our discrimination by learning.

I've just remembered how in my apprenticeship a friend bought an 850 mini-van and tuned it to stage 3+ with 5j Cinturatos, and how we did about 110 with four of us in it, the speedo reading right around the clock to the 'E' part of the fuel gauge. We were all doing this stuff.

[Haselsh1]

I guess I have become disillusioned with irrelevant bullshit. Back in 1979 when I first became involved with hi-fi (as opposed to music) I was very quickly brainwashed by the Linn/Naim bullshit of the time. The bullshit followed the same old quip that if you didn't have Linn and Naim then you or your hi-fi was immediately inferior. I left that behind during the eighties when I started to listen to stuff that was to me very superior to what I had been told was the best. Later on I discovered valves.

I think that my current state of mind is probably 'disillusioned' and it spreads to most of the things that used to excite me the most. I look upon this new view as a downward step and hope that it doesn't continue though I feel that is unlikely with my newly rediscovered musical state of mind. Yesterday I played 'Big Calm' by Morcheeba on CD. Bloody lovely to hear it sounding so energetic having sounded so dull for so long. A year back whilst driving the Lincolnshire coast on beautiful sunny days I just couldn't understand why Zero 7 and Morcheeba sounded better on the car MP3 player than it did on my hi-fi. I now know why of course. I guess I have just grown wary of the EL34/PrimaLuna sound.

The two Crown amps have injected a huge dose of energy into the way I listen to my music. Yes, I admit that the vocal sound is not as realistic as it was with the EL34's but then I have always pushed for EL34's having an exquisite midrange but I can no longer get along with no ultra low bass and flat dynamics. I guess that along with my old Spendors, the PrimaLuna really does suit simple mainly acoustic music. Isn't that what I realised back in 2004 with an Audion 300B SE amp and Audio Note AZ-2 speakers..? :scratch:

[Haselsh1]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it has all caught up with me".

Disillusioned.

[walpurgis]

Sounds like you need a Krell. :)

[alphaGT]

Disillusioned.

I had a very similar experience with amps. I wound up buying some huge Legacy Focus speakers, and my Forte’ Model 3 was not sufficient. A decent enough sounding amp, but the huge 200lb each Legacy’s were dull, lifeless and underpowered.

So I bought a Crown XLS2500, much like yours, and bi-amped my speakers with it, using the Forte’ on the top half. And just like you, I felt an immediate increase in power! And just like you, I felt like it lacked finesse. I ran my stereo for a few years like this, using a Parasound preamp.

These Crown amps are made for P.A. work, and make gobs of power for their size and weight. I wound up buying a second one and use them both for the band I play with. A lot of amp for the money!

After a time I felt like I was missing something. Satisfactory volumes and dynamics are great, but it was lacking, felt boring, while it seemed to sound great, and everyone else on a short listen thought it sounded great, it failed the test. The test of compelling me to listen. When the stereo is right, one album will lead to another and another, and before you know it time has slipped away from you! But I wasn’t doing that. I would play a record or CD or two, and stop. And just like you, I feared it was me! That I had become disinterested. That maybe it sounded fine, and I was just not into it?

So I finally decided to try one last thing, and make sure I wasn’t losing my edge. I spent a load of cash on a used Krell 300 watt amp! And I learned that it was NOT me! The stereo is exciting again! I play it several times a week, and vinyl is exciting again, one album leads to another, and another!

Now, I’m not saying to rush out and buy a Krell, but, seek out an amp that matches your speakers, something that has the wattage of the Crowns, with the finesse of your tubed gear. The Crowns are great in the mean time, but they are not the end all be all amp. They actually work great for sub woofers in an AV setup. Or on stage, and at 12lbs they are easy to haul around. Anyway, rest assured it’s not you, you haven’t changed, only the stereo has changed.

Russell

[Roy S]

I had a very similar experience with amps. I wound up buying some huge Legacy Focus speakers, and my Forte’ Model 3 was not sufficient. A decent enough sounding amp, but the huge 200lb each Legacy’s were dull, lifeless and underpowered.

So I bought a Crown XLS2500, much like yours, and bi-amped my speakers with it, using the Forte’ on the top half. And just like you, I felt an immediate increase in power! And just like you, I felt like it lacked finesse. I ran my stereo for a few years like this, using a Parasound preamp.

These Crown amps are made for P.A. work, and make gobs of power for their size and weight. I wound up buying a second one and use them both for the band I play with. A lot of amp for the money!

After a time I felt like I was missing something. Satisfactory volumes and dynamics are great, but it was lacking, felt boring, while it seemed to sound great, and everyone else on a short listen thought it sounded great, it failed the test. The test of compelling me to listen. When the stereo is right, one album will lead to another and another, and before you know it time has slipped away from you! But I wasn’t doing that. I would play a record or CD or two, and stop. And just like you, I feared it was me! That I had become disinterested. That maybe it sounded fine, and I was just not into it?

So I finally decided to try one last thing, and make sure I wasn’t losing my edge. I spent a load of cash on a used Krell 300 watt amp! And I learned that it was NOT me! The stereo is exciting again! I play it several times a week, and vinyl is exciting again, one album leads to another, and another!

Now, I’m not saying to rush out and buy a Krell, but, seek out an amp that matches your speakers, something that has the wattage of the Crowns, with the finesse of your tubed gear. The Crowns are great in the mean time, but they are not the end all be all amp. They actually work great for sub woofers in an AV setup. Or on stage, and at 12lbs they are easy to haul around. Anyway, rest assured it’s not you, you haven’t changed, only the stereo has changed.

Russell

Kind of echoes what I found with the Crown amps I had (& I ran two in bridged mode, 1000 watts per channel), initially an exciting whilst slightly brash sound but ultimately lacking something.

I'm a few amps down the road now but think I've found a very good 'all round' amp in my Luxman.

[Macca]

Disillusioned.

Look at it another way, you're not disillusioned, you're just more experienced and therefore more demanding of quality than you used to be back in your twenties when the world was young and everything different was a revelation.

I think your comparing average solid state amps with average valve amps and finding it all a bit, well, 'average' only in different ways. There is better out there in both topologies but it needs hunting out, especially if you don't want to pay thousands.

[Haselsh1]

especially if you don't want to pay thousands.

Martin, I already have paid thousands. The preamp was £1,500 new and the power amp was £2,500 new. They only succeeded in making me switch it all off because I preferred the silence to the music. This is now no longer the case.

Are the Crown amps you are all referring to Class D amps or the older style Class AB ?

The only amplifier I have ever owned that had the same kind of awesome bass power as these current amps was back around 1985 and was a Trio Sigma drive amp of around 125 Watts per channel and a big bugger of an amp. It was very powerful in the bass and quite refined to go with it.

Russell, one thing the sound is not is boring. It was, but it isn't anymore and this is not just a function of buying the KEF's as it was exactly the same with the Spendor's.

Sue my other half has a liking for Krell amps but strangely never offers to buy one :eyebrows:

[Haselsh1]

Two main issues from the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium days.

An almost complete absence of very low bass so crucial with electronic music and a flat, dull sound with virtually no dynamics.

I now have all of those things.

[Roy S]

Are the Crown amps you are all referring to Class D amps or the older style Class AB ?



I had two of these so class D

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-1500

Got one of them off Jerry on here, he had a lot to say about it's performance on his blog (and said it better than me!).

[Haselsh1]

Look at it another way, you're not disillusioned, you're just more experienced and therefore more demanding of quality than you used to be back in your twenties

The truth as I see it is that I am considerably older and considerably less demanding of almost anything. I have realised that hi-fi above a certain quality and cost is simply not essential or even important. What is important is that the music reproduced stirs your emotion and expression.

[Haselsh1]

I had two of these so class D

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-1500

Got one of them off Jerry on here, he had a lot to say about it's performance on his blog (and said it better than me!).

:thumbsup:

[southall-1998_mk2]

The truth as I see it is that I am considerably older and considerably less demanding of almost anything. I have realised that hi-fi above a certain quality and cost is simply not essential or even important. What is important is that the music reproduced stirs your emotion and expression.

Well said, Shaun.

S.

[Macca]

Two main issues from the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium days.

An almost complete absence of very low bass so crucial with electronic music and a flat, dull sound with virtually no dynamics.

I now have all of those things.

The issue with any valve amp (except OTL) is that it uses an output transformer so its frequency response will vary depending on the impedance load of the speaker. That could be the issue. You might be better changing speakers than changing the amplifier. Ideally to something that has as flat an impedance curve as possible i.e not modern KEF or Spendor or anything similar.

Or flog the valve power amp and buy a Krell, Bryston, something along those lines anyway. It is possible to get that midrange sweetness and transparency with solid state. Just not with most solid state.

[Haselsh1]

Just had a gorgeous Bowie 'Blackstar' session on this wonderful Sunday lunchtime; whoops, it's actually Tuesday. Must be all of the neighbourhood mowing their lawns and trimming their bush.

So, what of it..? Blackstar that is..? Sue, my other half said that it now sounds driven and with more pace.

I personally think that there is no part of this album that sounds better with the valve power. Martin, yes indeed re: the output transformer situation. I have though had four pairs of speakers in the last few years all with the PrimaLuna power. I found that the sound improved when connected to the 8 Ohm outputs. With the 4 Ohm outputs connected the voice and treble was just too exaggerated. There was never any improvement with the bass either in terms of drive or energy. I also agree Martin with your comments about Krell or Bryston. Sue has a bit of a fondness for Krell having listened before at Moorgate's in Sheffield.

Shane, thank you for your approval. The older I become the more I think that way.

[Frazeur1]

Life is about cycles, and not necessarily the motorized ones! We tend to go through some, and some, many. Along the way, we find that we may come to like things in different ways, and some things we never liked at all, somehow manage to become likeable-I think my wife may now see me that way...maybe! I have gone through several hifi cycles myself, and am now kind of on the opposite side of your cycle, Shaun. I used to enjoy effortless power, and clarity, the pulse and drive of the music. Valves and some things related to that side of things, never seemed to be what I wanted, and at times, could not understand what it was even about.

Now I am liking the softer, gentler side of things, which doesn't mean I am in the pipe and slippers brigade, but am enjoying decently sensitive speakers that take very little power to drive them, and at much lower sound levels than I used to. Some of it sort of came about by my moving to a new apartment versus my previous detached home, in which I could blast things-well, not blast, I never really was quite that way either-at any level I desired. When I moved into my current place, I just realized that I didn't need to have what I used to think I needed to get my musical enjoyment. I found I could get along just fine with bass to around 40 Hz, played at levels around 70-75 dB, and get it with my lower powered gear versus high powered, previous stuff. It also helped me really "listen" into the music, versus it being somewhat forced at me. Do I miss some of the previous gear/equipment and the way I listened to it then? Sure, to some extent. But I feel I am enjoying things in a different way now, and it is good. Is it better? Who knows, maybe if nothing else, for the neighbors, and also not creating issues otherwise, but it works, and I do not feel as if I am missing out on anything.

It kind of paralleled a guy that I knew, that was also into music and hifi, and I pretty much watched and listened to his ideas on how systems can be put together, and also kind of followed similar thoughts-not as copying, but I felt as if we had a lot in common. I became kind of miffed after sometime with him, as he sort of did a total U-turn at some point with his system, and thought process. I was like so all these years, you have "practiced" this-almost like a belief statement, which I realize happens way too often in this hobby, and here he was, "turning his back" on all of those thoughts and beliefs. It took me several years to kind of realize that there is no right or wrong in any of it, it isn't this belief system-or shouldn't be, but more of an evolution, a cycle if you will. Then it made sense, and here I am, and here you are.

And the funny thing is, maybe my cycle will take me back there again, who knows? Just like yours, maybe it will, maybe not. In it all, I think what is key, is that you don't care about that, nor what anyone else thinks about it, and that is how it SHOULD be plain and simple. It is your-fi, like mine is my-fi. We make things do for ourselves and what our ears tell us. It shouldn't be dominated by what others think. We live, we learn. The main thing is that you enjoy whatever goodness it brings to your life! No approval necessary here! I do find too, that my energies are now spread to other things, and that sometimes is just because of being in the hobby so long, one can reach that close to burn-out bit at times, but the other part is that as you kind of mentioned, you just don't care about all the fluffery of it all. And that is kind of a nice thing too.

Nothing wrong with all the tweaks, the cables, the this and that, but in the end, these days, just sitting and listening to the music really does sound fooking great, who gives a rats ass if I am not using ebony footers that came from some damn rain forest in god knows where, made by some guy with special tools and blessed by the neighboring medicine man, that is supposed to make all things sound like the best ever. Screw it. If your music is doing it for you, then all is well with the world, even if you are using a turd to hold your album to the turntable platter! Enjoy!

[hifinutt]

well put tim

[Haselsh1]

I'll definitely second that !

[Pharos]

From Martin;

"Look at it another way, you're not disillusioned, you're just more experienced and therefore more demanding of quality than you used to be back in your twenties when the world was young and everything different was a revelation."

There is nothing wrong with disillusion, it represents realisation, and hence a growth from an earlier and more naïve standpoint.
I would argue that this is healthy and necessary, especially if you want to effect reality.

From Shaun;

"The truth as I see it is that I am considerably older and considerably less demanding of almost anything. I have realised that hi-fi above a certain quality and cost is simply not essential or even important. What is important is that the music reproduced stirs your emotion and expression"

I doubt that you are less demanding, but that your perspective has changed, and perhaps you have realised the limits of what can be achieved, the enormous personal endeavour involved, and its cost.
That will feed into your sense of what is important.

I still think that what, (probably), we were all excited about earlier in our lives,was a result of that era and our position of discovery within it, and at a time when music said so much.

Those important things are now still so, but the vehicle of music ist expressing it so much these days; it was a revolution, and celebrated at the V&A in Feb '17 for what it was about and did.

There is still scope for emotional expressions of new truths, but the stultification by PWL and Simon Cowell by producing corporate music intervened from about '88, and the big boys stopped allowing singer/songwriters to have free reign.

[Haselsh1]

I'll second that too :)

[Haselsh1]

I doubt that you are less demanding, but that your perspective has changed

Totally accurate description.

[Mystic Mac]

Existentialism on a audiophile forum..... bravo I say.

Thank you guys, I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. I can identify with quite a bit of what has been said.

[Haselsh1]

Existentialism on a audiophile forum..... bravo I say.

Thank you guys, I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. I can identify with quite a bit of what has been said.

Lincolnshire my true, spiritual home by the sea. Last place I lived was Tetney. So nice to be so rural and so close to the sea.

[Haselsh1]

After a few weeks of using this new amp system I have found that backing off the gain controls on the power amps has improved the sound a helluva lot. It also enables me to use the preamp's rotary volume control in it's sweetest area away from almost 'off'. I still haven't used the system to play female vocal jazz so don't yet know how it will handle such a thing. There is however much less coarseness in the upper mid/treble since backing off the gain controls.

[walpurgis]

Maybe you had a touch of input overload on the power amps.

[Macca]

What pre-amp are you using? Might be better off with something with no gain so you can keep the power amps on full output.

[Haselsh1]

Maybe you had a touch of input overload on the power amps.

Geoff, that is exactly what it sounded like, at least to my ears.

[Haselsh1]

What pre-amp are you using? Might be better off with something with no gain so you can keep the power amps on full output.

Martin, I am currently using my old PrimaLuna Prologue 3 preamp.

[Macca]

I'd try a passive with them then. There might be gold there.

[Haselsh1]

I'd try a passive with them then. There might be gold there.

Wouldn't a pair of RCA inline attenuators do a better job as the current preamp has a built in phono stage and you never know do you :eyebrows:

[Pharos]

The problems of level matching are cropping up numerous times on the forum, and they are easy to resolve if a clear understanding is obtained.

Of course it would be much better if the industry standardised levels more, as is the case in broadcasting where numerous pieces of equipment are swapped into service all the time, necessitating interchangeability, and hence compatibility to facilitate this.

All amplifiers have a range of level operation which gives an optimum performance, the lowest level limited by quiescent noise in the amp, and the highest limited by design, this involving gain structure, devices, and power rail voltages.

Optimum matching between pre and power amps is achieved when their respective ranges are matched; that is, when the lower level limits are operating together, and the higher ones also, but a bit of headroom is always a bonus on a preamp.

When these ranges are matched, the best S/N ratio is achieved, and the volume pot will give the best range of volume over its rotation; none of the 'crammed up at one end' and easily too loud*, or turned up full, but too quiet, because the power amplifier is not being fed enough voltage to drive it to produce the desired volume.

*Many pots are also poorly matched at the lower end of their range, resulting in possible unequal levels from each channel at that end of the pot range.

The CD player industry likes to have O/Ps of much higher voltage than most other line level sources - at a guess they consider that this level is best high so that it does not in any way limit performance; it is always good to have level and/or gain in hand to 'play with'.

Many line level sources have about a 150mV O/P level, tuners for example, and so a CD player fed into a preamplifier will, compared with this, overload the I/P by about 21 to 22dB. This is problematic when switching from one source to another for obvious reasons, and so attenuating the higher CD O/P is sensible.

In line attenuators are convenient and negate the need for fitting internal components either in the CD player O/P or in the preamp I/P ccts.

The vinyl problem is that cartridges are very individual in their characteristics, this resulting from the designer's attempts using innovation, to reach higher performances, and as a result characteristics, including O/P levels vary, as do the needs or not, for capacitative loading, hence the adjustment available in many preamps.

[Macca]

Wouldn't a pair of RCA inline attenuators do a better job as the current preamp has a built in phono stage and you never know do you :eyebrows:

Well you could try. I don't like them myself.

[Pharos]

I agree, it is a bit 'messy' and there are more interfaces.

[Haselsh1]

Thank you guys. I could of course take the passive preamp option but I don't like them either, however the last time I used RCA attenuators was with a Croft pre/power and the damn things worked a near bloody miracle.

Not sure here but I'd rather pay out 40 quid than 400. If I use the attenuators though I'm guessing that it will be on the CDP output..?

[Macca]

I tried attenuators when I had Croft and whilst they worked in that they did let me get the volume off zero with CD without blasting me to death they also reduced sound quality.

If you've still got them, try them. Otherwise I have some here (somewhere) I could post to you. You can get a passive pre for £40, I think that would also be worth a try.

[Pharos]

Yes the CD is the one which most likely needs attenuation.

My main consideration with a pre is flexibility, what I need to connect/route, tape source selection, (no of I/Ps), and intrinsic sound quality.

With a passive a separate vinyl capability is needed, but many preamps have an adequate vinyl I/P.

[Haselsh1]

When I had the Croft pre/power I used Goldenjacks -14db attenuators on the input to the power amp and at that time they gave a huge improvement in sound quality to my ears. On top of that they enabled a much better response from the dual volume pots but what was really needed was -20db attenuator. I think that is what is needed here and as long as I don't use the vinyl input I suspect that there will be quite an improvement. Of course if I buy a pair of attenuators and try them I can also try them on the CD input to the preamp. I have only really ever used the Creek passive preamp which in my experience sucked the life out of the sound and left it for dead.

[Haselsh1]

You can get a passive pre for £40, I think that would also be worth a try.

OK, that is really good and very cheap.

[Macca]

When I had the Croft pre/power I used Goldenjacks -14db attenuators on the input to the power amp and at that time they gave a huge improvement in sound quality to my ears. On top of that they enabled a much better response from the dual volume pots but what was really needed was -20db attenuator. I think that is what is needed here and as long as I don't use the vinyl input I suspect that there will be quite an improvement. Of course if I buy a pair of attenuators and try them I can also try them on the CD input to the preamp. I have only really ever used the Creek passive preamp which in my experience sucked the life out of the sound and left it for dead.

You have different power amp now though. It's all about the matching.

[Mikeandvan]

Just packed my valve amp - S500 - to be sent away for servicing. The only thing I have to listen to now a Harmon Kardon HK6500 I had in my attic, plug it in, first thing I thought was wow, music comes to life, soundstage! May'be I should pack the HK away for servicing?

[southall-1998_mk2]

Just packed my valve amp - S500 - to be sent away for servicing. The only thing I have to listen to now a Harmon Kardon HK6500 I had in my attic, plug it in, first thing I thought was wow, music comes to life, soundstage! May'be I should pack the HK away for servicing?

If it sounds good. Leave the bloody thing alone.

S.

[Macca]

If it sounds good. Leave the bloody thing alone.

S.

+1

[Mikeandvan]

If it sounds good. Leave the bloody thing alone.

S.

An extra power supply at least?

[Haselsh1]

Question: What if the gain controls on the two Crown amps are input attenuators..? What if they attenuate the signal coming in..? If that was the case then it should be possible in theory to connect the CD player directly and adjust the input level via those two controls..? Not ideal maybe as I would prefer to have a preamp but possible..?

[Haselsh1]

The input sensitivity is set to 1.4 V on each amp with both amps set to bridge mode. The gain controls are currently turned down about five clicks each. I appreciate Martin's comments about a passive preamp and other's comments about attenuators. At the moment I rather like my PrimaLuna preamp due to the possibility of using remaining vinyl at some point but at least I have a few options to follow. Thanks you guys.

[Macca]

Question: What if the gain controls on the two Crown amps are input attenuators..? What if they attenuate the signal coming in..? If that was the case then it should be possible in theory to connect the CD player directly and adjust the input level via those two controls..? Not ideal maybe as I would prefer to have a preamp but possible..?

Yes you could do this but two caveats - first the direct connection may have an issue with impedance matching. So it will sound crap. That's always been my experience with connecting directly to a power amp with variable gain but it is worth a try. Second it may be that the power amp only gives best performance WRT distortion if the variable output is set to full - as with the Behringer A100 for example.

[Haselsh1]

Yes you could do this but two caveats - first the direct connection may have an issue with impedance matching. So it will sound crap. That's always been my experience with connecting directly to a power amp with variable gain but it is worth a try. Second it may be that the power amp only gives best performance WRT distortion if the variable output is set to full - as with the Behringer A100 for example.

Martin, I tried a Behringer years ago and it was so bad it was unusable in my system. I'm not going to try my suggestion as I prefer to use a preamp to be honest. Also, the current amps are not at full output anyway otherwise they sound overloaded. Backed off as they are they sound better. For an outlay of 38 quid I am going to buy a pair of RCA attenuators by Rothwell to see how I get along. If that fails it'll be a passive preamp.

[Macca]

Martin, I tried a Behringer years ago and it was so bad it was unusable in my system. I'm not going to try my suggestion as I prefer to use a preamp to be honest. Also, the current amps are not at full output anyway otherwise they sound overloaded. Backed off as they are they sound better. For an outlay of 38 quid I am going to buy a pair of RCA attenuators by Rothwell to see how I get along. If that fails it'll be a passive preamp.

Good plan. I had a brace of the Behringers a few years back, used with a Croft pre-amp they sounded diabolical. Some sort of overload issue. Used with a passive pre - perfectly acceptable, although not world-shattering.

[Haselsh1]

Good plan. I had a brace of the Behringers a few years back, used with a Croft pre-amp they sounded diabolical. Some sort of overload issue. Used with a passive pre - perfectly acceptable, although not world-shattering.

No but then I'm guessing they didn't cost 'World shattering' money..?

My current Crown amps sound very coarse and grainy in the upper mid/lower treble but then they are very cheap amplifiers. I have noticed though that if I get close to the KEF's Uni-Q driver the sound appears overloaded and compressed but this is dependant on the source material. On loud guitar and synth 'Ozrics' type material it is over exaggerated and coarse but with very high quality production the sound is pretty good.

I'm going to have to think a bit about this.

[Macca]

Similar Crown amp to yours tested here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crown-xls2502-stereo-amplifier-review.10627/

Gets a recommended. Quite a bit of harmonic distortion but not enough to be audible, apparently. I reckon your problem is poor matching with your pre-amp.

[Haselsh1]

Similar Crown amp to yours tested here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crown-xls2502-stereo-amplifier-review.10627/

Gets a recommended. Quite a bit of harmonic distortion but not enough to be audible, apparently. I reckon your problem is poor matching with your pre-amp.

I think you're right Martin :thumbsup:

[Macca]

Passive here for £44.44 delivered. Cheap way to test the concept. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193061024581?format=1&hlpv=1&cond=1

[antonio]

Talk to Ant at BTE, he makes passive pre's. He's a member on HFS, if you cannot contact him I would be be happy to contact him with your details.

Just remembered he advertises on ebay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bte-designs-TYPE-2-passive-preamp-pre-amplifier-customizable-to-your-spec/254262826576?hash=item3b333ed650:g:jlwAAOSw1i5bsgI G

[Haselsh1]

Regarding the use of RCA attenuators and my Croft pre/power combo from 2009, I must add that I intially used them on the preamp CD inputs. It was only when i switched them to the power amp inputs that the huge change in sound occured. In that system and to my ears there was a huge improvement in sound quality.

One thing that this amp journey has taught me though is that I now have around 640 quids worth of amplification against the 2,500 quids worth I did have and neither were or are very satisfactory. Both have/had significant issues. Perfection has such a high price lol.

[Haselsh1]

Talk to Ant at BTE, he makes passive pre's. He's a member on HFS, if you cannot contact him I would be be happy to contact him with your details.

Just remembered he advertises on ebay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bte-designs-TYPE-2-passive-preamp-pre-amplifier-customizable-to-your-spec/254262826576?hash=item3b333ed650:g:jlwAAOSw1i5bsgI G

David, just spotted his work. I shall be in touch with him.

[Haselsh1]

Sod it..! I have just bought a secondhand Usher R1.5 ! Slightly diverted this thread I guess but it will be nice to hear what it is about when it arrives.

[Macca]

Serious amplifier that.

[walpurgis]

Very nice Shaun. That's a serious amplifier.

(I see Martin just said the same :))

[Macca]

I read that it is a copy of the old Threshold Stasis.

[Haselsh1]

Thank you Geoff. Martin, I believe that is true and that it is/was available in three flavours: R1.3, R1.5 and R2.5

More than that and the media summaries, I haven't a clue.

[Haselsh1]

It is due for delivery on Thursday and will probably take thirty seconds to connect up so that I can give it a warm up and watch the meter spinning around. This is hi-fi's last chance with me. If this doesn't work out it will be a Sony digital Walkman and a naff pair of 'phones.

[Firebottle]

I cannot recommend this highly enough. Plus it's cheap as chips. Remote control as well.

If you are after a 'passive' pre then get one of these. I put 'passive' in italics as it is an active device with no gain to speak of. (+3dB max)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hiend-PGA2310-PGA2311-Remote-Preamp-Volume-control-support-L18-23-Bluetooth-5-0/124032004403?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

It has active drive on the outputs so you won't have any problem with impedance matching into any amp.

it is based on the PGA2310/11 volume control chip, choose the PGA2311 version.
The specs on the PGA2311 are quite phenominal, as bought this unit is very good. With a couple of modifications to provide the best environment for the chip the performance is astoundingly transparent.

I use a similar unit using the same chip.

[Haselsh1]

Thank you Alan. I did forget to mention though that this deal includes a Lightspeed LDR preamp as well as the Usher R1.5 power. All I have to provide is a psu for the preamp.

[Haselsh1]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49867517887_7b302599f4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iYC4Ha)Usher Power Amp (https://flic.kr/p/2iYC4Ha) by Shaun Haselden (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156648964@N02/), on Flickr

Well it arrived, was installed and switched on. Since then I have read the manual and now know it's fuel consumption. Jeez it's a bit steep.

So far only played Big Calm by Morcheeba using the PrimaLuna Prologue 3 valve preamp. To me it sounds like a hugely powerful valve amp with such a bloody grip on the bass. Need to try the Lightspeed passive next.

[Macca]

Off to a good start then.

[Haselsh1]

Have now used the Usher with the PrimaLuna valve preamp and the Lightspeed LDR passive pre powered by batteries. The LDR absolutely obliterates the PrimaLuna in just about every aspect. The LDR allows the system to display an enormous amount of reverb/acoustic ambience with a much better bass presence. Bass power and 'thud' is much greater and vocals have no falseness to them. Biggest drawback..? No phono input (cozz you never know do you..?)

[Macca]

Well you can pick up a phonostage practically anywhere.

I noticed that the LDR was good with bass reverb. I don't think it's entirely honest but that's by the by. So it's all working well together then?

[Haselsh1]

I don't think it's entirely honest but that's by the by

Honest..? The word is not really applicable to electronic music. What is the honest sound of a Gibson Les Paul..? What is the honest sound of an ARP Odessey..? The sound changes with every device you play it through. Most music these days is buggered up one way or another by some piece of software such as Ableton so what constitutes honest in electronic music..? Does it really matter..?

I don't understand this obsessive nature with 'fidelity' when what really counts is whether the sound system makes you shiver with emotion as you hear that pitch wheel bend on the Moog synth or that little inflection from that Strat. That low, really low bass shimmer that crawls across the floor whilst the rest of the music is pulling cartwheels all over the place. Honesty in music reproduction..? No thanks.

[Pharos]

This is also being argued about on the other thread about what Hi-Fi is.

To me what matters is that the artist's intent and expression are conveyed.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Honest..? The word is not really applicable to electronic music. What is the honest sound of a Gibson Les Paul..? What is the honest sound of an ARP Odessey..? The sound changes with every device you play it through. Most music these days is buggered up one way or another by some piece of software such as Ableton so what constitutes honest in electronic music..? Does it really matter..?

I don't understand this obsessive nature with 'fidelity' when what really counts is whether the sound system makes you shiver with emotion as you hear that pitch wheel bend on the Moog synth or that little inflection from that Strat. That low, really low bass shimmer that crawls across the floor whilst the rest of the music is pulling cartwheels all over the place. Honesty in music reproduction..? No thanks.

Yes it does matter, and honesty in music reproduction is the aim, Eric Johnson explains what is needed to get the sound he achieves from the musicians perspective,
We can hear the effort he describes here, on his albums Ah Via Musicom, Tones, and Venus Isle, so does constitute a honesty in achieving what you hear.
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/307364-eric-johnson-explains-why-detail-matters/

[Haselsh1]

Yes I agree it matters to some but there are so many of us who simply don't give a damn about high fidelity and its obsessiveness. A lot of us are only interested in how it makes us respond.

[Haselsh1]

Yes it does matter, and honesty in music reproduction is the aim

For some maybe.

[Haselsh1]

Try to quantify "honesty in music reproduction" for a piece of music created via VSTi plugins on a Mac.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Have now used the Usher with the PrimaLuna valve preamp and the Lightspeed LDR passive pre powered by batteries. The LDR absolutely obliterates the PrimaLuna in just about every aspect. The LDR allows the system to display an enormous amount of reverb/acoustic ambience with a much better bass presence. Bass power and 'thud' is much greater and vocals have no falseness to them. Biggest drawback..? No phono input (cozz you never know do you..?)

Lightspeed, and stereo coffee 3 input LDR compared here: https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/113297-comparison-lightspeed-diy-ldr-pre-vs-stereo-coffee-diy/
and latest board here: https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/301377-2020-stereocoffee-ldr-passive-preamp-redesign/

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Try to quantify "honesty in music reproduction" for a piece of music created via VSTi plugins on a Mac.

Honesty up to the point of the fact you know the sound is changed or treated that way, if not to your preference then don,t use such plugins.
A recording like this: https://www.rarenoiserecords.com/artists/francesco-guerri/ connects the artist with his audience effectively & as it seems, with little in the way.

[Macca]

Honest..? The word is not really applicable to electronic music. What is the honest sound of a Gibson Les Paul..? What is the honest sound of an ARP Odessey..? The sound changes with every device you play it through. Most music these days is buggered up one way or another by some piece of software such as Ableton so what constitutes honest in electronic music..? Does it really matter..?

.

No. That's why I said 'but that's by the by.'

[Haselsh1]

No. That's why I said 'but that's by the by.'

:doh: You did didn't you ;)

[Pharos]

Historically honesty has been used to describe the behaviour of people towards each other, for eg., that a representation in words or writing do not misrepresent the reality which they describe. Being faithful to the original, or having fidelity to the original.

When used in a description of sound it surely must follow the latter, and by doing so conveys accurately and completely what the artist intends.

[Haselsh1]

Quite possibly the last update on this thread but I have now been using this system for a couple of weeks.

CD input only, Zero 7, Mr Scruff, Tina Arena, Daft Punk, Shpongle and loads more.

Result..? Bloody wonderful sound akin to a very gutsy valve amp. The bass is not quite as obvious as the Crown amps but has good weight and slam. The mid is just so good. Treble is sublime but only when the amp is warm. Stereo image..? Massive and extremely well defined. Overall sound is refined and powerful. At last..!

Who's a happy old Hector

[walpurgis]

Glad it worked out well Shaun. I'm jealous now! :)

[Macca]

That's great, really pleased for you.

[Haselsh1]

OK you guys, given that the input impedance for the Usher is 67kOhms, what would be a suitable output impedance for a passive preamp ? Asking for a friend :eyebrows:

[Pharos]

As low as possible, and at least as low as 6.7k.

The AVI preamp in its last incarnation had an O/P impedance of 0.1 ohms, and could drive a torch light bulb

[Macca]

1 to 20 ratio (pre to power) to be totally on the safe side.

[Haselsh1]

Anyone have any opinions on the Schiit Saga solid state preamp..? Would be a good match electronically.

[Macca]

It needs to see at least 30Kohm so yes it should work fine with the Usher

[Haselsh1]

OK OK, I am just toying with the idea of buying a Croft Micro 25R preamp for use with the Usher power amp. Any thoughts..?

It would have to have one volume pot and the volume control would have to be 'sensible' but I'm sure that would be possible.

I would need one at line level only.

Whaddya reckon..? I've had two Micro 25 Basics at various times in the past along with a Series 7 power and was amazed at the level of detail resolved.

[Macca]

I used a Micro Basic for a couple of years and I had a Series 7 with it for a short time too. Great with vinyl, not much cop with digital. Just too coloured, it didn't play to the strengths of digital.

[Haselsh1]

I used a Micro Basic for a couple of years and I had a Series 7 with it for a short time too. Great with vinyl, not much cop with digital. Just too coloured, it didn't play to the strengths of digital.

OK Martin, point noted. I certainly do remember my Croft setup way back then being very warm sounding.

[swampy]

I mostly listen to electronica and from all the valve amps I have had, from WAD kits, 2A3, 300B and finally and 845 (all with various tube pre-amps), only the 845 SE could do electronic music any justice with speed and scale. The 300B SE was by far the best amp I have had for vocals and intamacy.

I switched to solid state many years ago since I also own a few synths and play with them so for me a good solid state is a must now. Depends on what you mostly listen to I guess. A system catering for both is ideal if you have the room.

[Marco]

Hi David,

Great to see you checking in mate! Long time no hear... Hope you've been keeping well?:)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, back around 2002 I had an Audion 300B SE amp along with an Audion Sterling ETSE. I used these amps with mainly vinyl and a pair of Audio Note AZ-2's. Amazing vocals and treble but really not suited to electronic music.

Yesterday I played Mr Scruff's Friendly Bacteria CD and oh boy it was the best I have heard it. The system I have now is up there with my best ever but the air and space of the 300B was better still.

[swampy]

Hi David,

Great to see you checking in mate! Long time no hear... Hope you've been keeping well?:)

Marco.

Still around. Had a rough time last year. Don't use my main hifi much these days. 99% use my 2nd system with a DAB tuner for Radio 6. Keep thinking of selling off the main system but I know most of it is ireplaceable. Spend more time playing with synths or just pc gaming.

[bumpy]

I come to this a bit late, but found it very interesting. I wonder if the diminished enjoyment in listening could be linked to the whole Covid thing. I have certainly found it more difficult to get into the right mindset that encouraged be to go for album after album. Normally a two album session is enough before I start to fidget.

Anyway, to the Hi Fi bit.

The overall consensus seems to be that valves excel at voices and transistors at the lower frequencies required to drive along rock and electronic music. Looking at the chart I have attached is this predominantly a frequency thing with a tipping point about 100Hz. All seems a bit too simplistic.

28753

[paulf-2007]

I come to this a bit late, but found it very interesting. I wonder if the diminished enjoyment in listening could be linked to the whole Covid thing. I have certainly found it more difficult to get into the right mindset that encouraged be to go for album after album. Normally a two album session is enough before I start to fidget.

Anyway, to the Hi Fi bit.

The overall consensus seems to be that valves excel at voices and transistors at the lower frequencies required to drive along rock and electronic music. Looking at the chart I have attached is this predominantly a frequency thing with a tipping point about 100Hz. All seems a bit too simplistic.

28753spend “ more “ than enough on a quality solid state amp and it does all the good bits of a valve amp without the bad bits.

[Pharos]

I think that very competent SS amps are available at reasonable prices, and would look at second hand, all of mine have been and have been problem free.

[bumpy]

spend “ more “ than enough on a quality solid state amp and it does all the good bits of a valve amp without the bad bits.

So which transistor amp has the midrange magic of a 45, 2A3 or 300b SET amp? Pray tell.

[Macca]

Krell KSA50S and Longdog LDAP6100M - there's two for you. I'll guess there's more but I've not heard everything. A QUAD 303 with a passive pre isn't far off either, as is the Philips 380 'Black Tulip.'

[bumpy]

Krell KSA50S and Longdog LDAP6100M - there's two for you. I'll guess there's more but I've not heard everything. A QUAD 303 with a passive pre isn't far off either, as is the Philips 380 'Black Tulip.'

Great products and great sound. Close to the classic valve sound, but for me they don't hit the SET sweet spot. ( caveat - I have not heard the Longdog product). Nelson Pass got quite close, but there is big money for a manufacturer that gets it 100% right.

[paulf-2007]

So which transistor amp has the midrange magic of a 45, 2A3 or 300b SET amp? Pray tell.
Bakoon 11r, 12r and 13r. Also do bass properly

[Haselsh1]

Well it's been a while. The Usher is still in use with the same ancilliaries; Denon and Kef's and still sounds bloody amazing. It takes at least an hour to warm up even from standby but sounds at it's best when thoroughly warmed. The treble is definitely restrained with the midband also being quite flat. The bass definition is incredible. The opening track on the Eleanor McEvoy SACD 'Yola' has the most staggering double bass that the Usher/KEF combination produces with amazing power and grip. Brilliant stuff but I have heard a better treble/midband. In fact back around 1997 I had a World Audio Design 300B PP amplifier that has so far never been beaten in the mid/treble by any amp I have listened to including this one but the 300B had the usual bass issues.

Will the Usher stay ? Yes until it pisses me off enough to get rid.

[Macca]

doesn't sound like it's pissing you off :)

[Haselsh1]

No Martin it's not pissing me off but it kicks out so much heat that it has been a difficult listen for the last few weeks. If anything, I'm getting pissed off with the musical choice out there at the mo. The whole scene is so restrictive. I had the hots (geddit) for the Usher since I first spotted one on the net around ten years back so it made sense for me to buy this one when it came up as available. It is bloody lovely but being picky, it is very polite and laid back. No doubt I'll get used to it. Or maybe :whistle:

[The Black Adder]

No Martin it's not pissing me off but it kicks out so much heat that it has been a difficult listen for the last few weeks. If anything, I'm getting pissed off with the musical choice out there at the mo. The whole scene is so restrictive. I had the hots (geddit) for the Usher since I first spotted one on the net around ten years back so it made sense for me to buy this one when it came up as available. It is bloody lovely but being picky, it is very polite and laid back. No doubt I'll get used to it. Or maybe :whistle:I too feel that the music scene at them moment is pretty dire.

Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

[Seeker-Smith]

Howdy,

The Crown I'm familiar with were made in the USA and we used them for PA (before Bryston). They were wonderful in the day but these can't be the same??

[Macca]

Howdy,

The Crown I'm familiar with were made in the USA and we used them for PA (before Bryston). They were wonderful in the day but these can't be the same??

Same basic idea, lots of power and robust - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crown-xls1002-pro-amplifier-review.16211/

No idea how they compare to the vintage ones though.

[Seeker-Smith]

Yup same company, I found them online. Still sold as commercial amplification. I'm love to listen to the new ones.

Cheers,
Peter

[Haselsh1]

I once had a listen to a pair of Cerwin Vega speakers. Huge amount of breath taking fun but not really hi-fi. The Crown amplifier I had was quite similar, highly enjoyable but no sense of refinement. Massive bass power and so much fun on the correct kind of music but ultimately very tiring. I now have exactly the opposite.

[Macca]

Are you still using Spendors Sean?

I liked the Cerwin Vegas I heard many years ago but they were an old model even then. I'd hazard a guess and say that most of what people don't like about them is down to poor source and amplification. They don't tend to be bought by people with 'serious' systems.

[Haselsh1]

Martin, the little Spendors had to go. I replaced them with KEF R5's in February of last year. Shortly after that I sold my Prima Luna gear and bought a Fidelity Audio Pre120 SE preamp and the Usher R1.5 power. The sound is extremely good with a reservation about how polite it all is. Sounds bloody wonderful on female vocal and jazz. Come to think of it, it sounds quite good with Paul Weller also (Stanley Road). Electronic music like Zero 7 had more treble definition with the Spendors. I am about to have another music sesh so I'll try out the three main Zero 7 albums. I bloody love their music.

[Haselsh1]

I too feel that the music scene at them moment is pretty dire.

Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

Could it actually get any worse ? What the hell has happened ?

[The Black Adder]

Could it actually get any worse ? What the hell has happened ?I ask myself that question every year... But it somehow gets worse, breaking all expectations of crappyness.



Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

[Pharos]

The general trend is explainable; late 80s, PWL corporately written and controlled, (polished crap), new millennium, Simon Cowell, lack of investment in real singer songwriters, who were once given free reign in studios, student trends being towards a 'serious career' studying accounting and business studies, and the resulting lack of expression of the natural rebellion of the young against the very evident hypocrisies with which they have been brought up.

A move to the right in society, political correctness being used to prevent the truth being expressed. (ON R4 this morning an MP being banished from parliament for stating that the Prime Minister was a liar, when he is such.) Employment insecurity stifling hereticism and everyone pussy-footing around afraid for their future, and possibly avoiding much of this painful truth.

The technology is immensely powerful, but the creativity minimal, chirping, chirruping, cherubs, with perfect tits, eyebrows and lips, using the naturally good voice of youth and singing over inane looped samples, and voice correcting if necessary. Mic. techniques which suppress expression with high proximity use, and to me unintelligible words, probably full of inane personal distress, and lacking the vibrant new expression of 'Lipstick on Your Collar'.

If the music is inane crap, badly expressed, produced and recorded, why any desire for a good system? Hence decline in Hi-Fi.

[Macca]

It could be all of that... or it could be we're just getting old. Today's music is not made for us. My father used to complain that the music I liked was rubbish. Not much changes really.

[Haselsh1]

My father used to complain that the music I liked was rubbish

:lol:

Mine too.

Compared to his Roll Out The Barrel it was rubbish of course

;)

[struth]

hey, leave the classics alone;) got us through a war that did:ner:

[Haselsh1]

I think the decline in hi-fi gear was started by the invention of MP3 which led to compressed, low quality streaming for the masses. It is though quite possible that I'm way off the mark.

[Haselsh1]

hey, leave the classics alone;) got us through a war that did:ner:

:lol:

[Haselsh1]

When my father referred to my music as rubbish he was usually referring to Close to the Edge or Roundabout. A man not known for his taste in music.

:eyebrows:

[Haselsh1]

Wow, someone mentioned pussyfooting which led me to Fripp and Eno's No Pussyfooting. A ground breaking album way back in the 70's when music was sublime.

[Pharos]

It could be all of that... or it could be we're just getting old. Today's music is not made for us. My father used to complain that the music I liked was rubbish. Not much changes really.

Of course we are getting older, and I didn't sing Ba Ba Black sheep after the age of 4, we develop. But things do change, look at history and what QE 1 did for her population. The young are uniquely positioned to express something new as they mature, and guess what, some years ago when I bought a new MIDI interface the guys at the Guitar and Amp shop said that eighteen year olds were buying DSOFM because they found it astounding.

We've been through a profound renaissance, and we are lucky, it will IMO be referred to in history books, but I doubt that that will apply to PWL's stuff, at; least not for reasons of intrinsic value.

I will seek out No Pussyfooting try Return from Eden, Steve Miller.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJALQcCHuF0

[Macca]

My new neighbour is 35 and a big fan of The Doors.

So there is hope for these youngsters.

[Haselsh1]

My new neighbour is 35 and a big fan of The Doors.

So there is hope for these youngsters.

Christ yes, there certainly is. I hear of no end of write offs getting into the old bands. Bloody good on 'em.

[Pharos]

In 2002 the DSS gave me an ultimatum; either start production of my loudspeaker design, or go to study full time.

I chose the latter enrolling in an HND in Music Production, with a one year extension to obtain a degree. I did not complete the course, which I thought was poor, but many of the fellow students, at 18 yo, were asking me for the words of Light My Fire, which they wanted to cover.

[Haselsh1]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51294532654_e8a728e5b9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m9HTu3)Usher R 1.5 Power Amplifier (https://flic.kr/p/2m9HTu3) by Shaun Haselden (https://www.flickr.com/photos/193416475@N06/), on Flickr


Here's a quick snap of the amps. I've just had a music sesh listening to Mr Scruff's Friendly Bacteria album.