View Full Version : Using a netbook as audio source?
What do you think of using a netbook as an audio source in a hifi system? I'm planning to use a Samsung N220 netbook ad the source, but my guess is that its line out connector is not of very high quality, not to mention its DAC...
I'm thinking that maybe I should get a DAC with USB input. I don't have any high resolution music, only cd quality. Which DAC should I get?
Stratmangler
29-06-2010, 19:39
I'm thinking that maybe I should get a DAC with USB input. I don't have any high resolution music, only cd quality. Which DAC should I get?
You're asking that question around here ? :lolsign:
Vincent Kars
29-06-2010, 21:33
Playback sec doesn’t require much power so a net book should do.
Make sure it is a silent one, nothing as horrible as listening to a string quartet accompanied by a cpu cooler and a rattling HD.
Today there are may DAC’s with USB input.
Most of them are adaptive mode USB using a simple drop in chip.
A couple of new models have asynchronous mode USB and allow for higher resolutions (up to 24 bit / 96 kHz)
A couple of them can be found here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_DAC.htm
Hi Vincent,
Any chance of telling us where you're from, or are you a secret agent? I have asked you on number of occasions now :)
Cheers!
Marco.
Vincent Kars
29-06-2010, 21:48
Would you be so kind to explain to me what the relevance is of knowing somebody’s geographical location?
Hi Vincent,
If you have to ask that question then you obviously haven't read many of the discussions here and/or the whole of the Welcome area (or Our Ethos)!
In fact, have you created a Welcome thread since joining? If not, you should do so.
As far as location details are concerned, all we're asking for is something basic like 'London, UK', or whatever. It's hardly too much to ask, so please, add it to your profile - thanks! :)
Marco.
Thanks for complying, Vincent! Now you see that's interesting, as I wouldn't have guessed before that you were from Holland :)
Incidentally, reading through the website on your signature, I discovered this quote from Gordon Holt of Stereophile:
Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..
I'm not entirely sure such views fit in with Our Ethos, or on a staunchly subjectivist site such as AOS, but if you sympathise with those views, then that's entirely your prerogative.
Have you read Our Ethos: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17 - noting in particular posts #5 and #6?
Marco.
You're asking that question around here ? :lolsign:
Hmm... What's the problem here? :)
twelvebears
30-06-2010, 05:08
Hmm... What's the problem here? :)
Nothing as such, other than there's quite likely to be a (rightly) popular, audio bargain choice offered. :)
twelvebears
30-06-2010, 05:19
What do you think of using a netbook as an audio source in a hifi system? I'm planning to use a Samsung N220 netbook ad the source, but my guess is that its line out connector is not of very high quality, not to mention its DAC...
I'm thinking that maybe I should get a DAC with USB input. I don't have any high resolution music, only cd quality. Which DAC should I get?
As it happens I've been considering the same thing myself as an easy, low cost alternative to moving my iMac to my garden den once it's finished.
If you're planning to use the netbook as a way to interface with a network streaming device like a squeezebox (i.e. providing a point to connect a USBC drive and use the browser interface), then I'd say it's fine. In fact this exactly what I was planning.
If on the other had you were going to play files directly from the netbook to the DAC (let alone the actual audio outputs), then I wouldn't expect great things.
By their very nature, netbooks are a whole load of comparatively cheap electronic components jammed together in a very small space - screen, hard drive, power supply etc, etc. It's inevitable that there's going to be a load of potential for the output to be less than ideal. I mean it's hardly how an audio manufacturer would go about designing and packaging a CD transport is it? And that's essentially what you asking the netbook to act as in this case, except it's also having to do a whole load of other stuff that a transport wouldn't.
Ammonite Audio
30-06-2010, 06:08
I have an Advent (MSI Wind) netbook running XP and, out of curiosity, installed Foobar, ASIO and tried playing high-res 24/96 music files through a HiFace USB adapter. It did work pretty well, but there was "something" lacking to the sound in comparison with an older but full-size HP laptop, which produces some really stunning sounds. The advantage of the netbook is its comparative silence, small size and good battery life. Martin T has given me some advice about upgrading the Netbook's memory and switching to Win7, which I am going to implement - maybe that will result in the netbook becoming a more viable controller and source? I'm going to find out!
By their very nature, netbooks are a whole load of comparatively cheap electronic components jammed together in a very small space - screen, hard drive, power supply etc, etc. It's inevitable that there's going to be a load of potential for the output to be less than ideal. I mean it's hardly how an audio manufacturer would go about designing and packaging a CD transport is it? And that's essentially what you asking the netbook to act as in this case, except it's also having to do a whole load of other stuff that a transport wouldn't.
True, but one requirement here is that the audio playing device has a battery and isn't dependent on mains current (though the same does not apply to the DAC). Also, netbooks are way more silent than full size laptops. Oh well, I think I'll have to see myself if the audio quality lacks too much...
Stratmangler
30-06-2010, 14:20
Hmm... What's the problem here? :)
No problem, just lots of members here use Beresford Caiman DAC's, myself included.
That's almost a recommendation;)
technobear
30-06-2010, 19:10
Some time in July, the new Arcam rDAC will be available. This implements asynchronous USB (courtesy of circuits designed by dCS) and should overcome the usual shortcomings of USB to make the quality of the PC irrelevant - and for only £300.
The Dell Mini 10 might be a good choice of netbook for music as it is fanless.
If you can afford to spend more, the Nokia Booklet 3G is also fanless and quite desirable (shame it has only 1GB RAM).
Ali Tait
01-07-2010, 06:56
Is the new Audiolab dac out yet? There was quite a bit of hype about that.For value for money though,it's hard to beat Beresford.
Don't know about a netbook for audio, but this Netop will handle audio and HD video
http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?origin=gbase1.9&prodID=B283799
Vincent Kars
01-07-2010, 19:35
MSI and Asus have likewise offerings.
A small all-in-one with a touch screen: http://global.shuttle.com/product_type.jsp?PCI=18
StanleyB
01-07-2010, 19:39
Is the new Audiolab dac out yet? There was quite a bit of hype about that.
I was reading what John Westlake has been penning down on the DIY Audio forum. No news from Audiolab yet though. It's been more than a year since that DAC was first mentioned.
Ali Tait
01-07-2010, 19:57
Has John had anything to say about it?
StanleyB
01-07-2010, 20:07
Have a butcher of the thread HERE (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/70107-da-capo-issue-john-w-68.html)
In one post he did mention quality control issues in China. I could have told him that:rolleyes:. And that's assumng his circuit hasn't already been whisked away and copied by one of the myriad of Chinese DAC companies.
Ali Tait
01-07-2010, 21:49
Cheers Stan.
What do you think of using a netbook as an audio source in a hifi system? I'm planning to use a Samsung N220 netbook ad the source, but my guess is that its line out connector is not of very high quality, not to mention its DAC...
I'm thinking that maybe I should get a DAC with USB input. I don't have any high resolution music, only cd quality. Which DAC should I get?
I personally think that using a netbook as a source is not a perfect solution, but it can be more than enough depending on your needs.
I would advice to get a netbook with a digital output, though.
Anyway, there are plenty of dacs, of course, but the Caiman is a very good solution, as it has a variable out (so that it can be used with a power amp) and a good headphone amp. At a very good price. ;)
also consider an old 'ultra-portable'.
IBM ThinkPad X40 that feature Intel Pentium M. weighs 1.24 Kg
or
the 2006 model Thinkpad X60 has dual core processor
or
Sony's 1.4 Kg VAIO VGN-T2XP
They cost around £2000 when new and were used by corporate execs.. Can be bought from around £150 upwards. eBay and specialist suppliers such as SterlingXS to name one of many.
Avoid X30 or older.
Build quality is way above that of netbooks and they ooooze quality.
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X40
My PC, external hard drives and NAS are my study. But the main hi-fi set up in the living room.
I use a Thinkpad to wirelessly connect either to the PC or the NAS. Then Thinkpad > DAC > Amp > speakers.
Ability to access the internet mean that I can also stream Spotify and similar, look at details of the album, artist, composer, conductor or whatever.
Way better than Sqeezebox and similar devices with their tiny displays and limited functions.
I have also tried feeding the DAC from the PC using a long cable through a hole in the wall.
Did not sound any better than through the Thinkpad.
So I am puzzled by some of the comments here ...........
Should there be a difference as long as the built-in sound card is not used?
firedog55
10-07-2010, 10:55
Hi-
It can work very well. Depends on setup.
IMO, I think you have to use the netbook only as a music server: Shut down all Windows processes not necessary for music reproduction. Setup your playback so it by passes the normal Windows processing, as Windows resamples your music stream otherwise. I'd recommend using ASIO or WASAPI drivers, or even better, kernel streaming, if you can get it to work in your setup.
Add in an M2Tech Hiface USB>SPDIF (or BNC) converter. This will give you high quality, low jitter stream. Even bit-perfect is possible. Again, the Hiface comes with proprietary USB drivers that allow it to bypass all the normal Windows processes that can degrade the signal. It also gives you the ability to stream all the normally used formats up to and including 24/192 from USB ports.
Then add in the DAC of your choice. With this setup you don't need a USB DAC.
Cost: Well under $1000 if you buy a modestly priced DAC. Approximate current prices online:New Netbook ($350) + M2Tech Hiface ($150) + Modest DAC:($250 -$500).
If you want more HD space than netbooks usually provide, for added $150 get a laptop instead of netbook, or add an external USB drive to the netbook. (I'd go for the bigger built-in drive, in my experience it's a superior solution).
Sound (with well ripped lossless files): as good or better than most CD playback - even better than many CD decks costing several thousand dollars. You can get even better results if you have a better sounding/more expensive DAC in mind.
Ali Tait
10-07-2010, 11:17
You could try one of these-
http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-guruplugdetails.aspx
I've ordered one.
Use of a wireless router/modem for BB is common these days.
Any thoughts on having your notebook/netbook connected to a WiFi network?
That way you can access all the files in your PC, any external HDs connected to it and any other computers in the household.
Which is better?
M2Tech Hiface USB>SPDIF (or BNC) converter
or
a USB DAC such as The Beresford DAC
aquapiranha
10-07-2010, 12:00
You could try one of these-
http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-guruplugdetails.aspx
I've ordered one.
Hi Ali, you must let us know how you get on with that, it looks great.
Maybe you should do a mini review?
:)
Ali Tait
10-07-2010, 12:16
I will,it's at least a 4 week delivery though.They had overheating problems with the first batch apparently.I'll see how hot it runs when I get it,and mount a heatsink if necessary.Then I have to set it up,and I know zilch about Linux.There is a wiki on the Slimforum though,so I'll give that a go.It does look ideal for running Squeezeserver though,so ideal for the likes of me that doesn't want to have a pc on all time I'm listening to music.
firedog55
10-07-2010, 19:31
I seem to remember some extensive discussion of these devices at forums.slimdevices.com, as they are a favorite of many SB users.
I don't quite understand how something like programs running in background or a power supply could possibly affect USB signal quality. It's all digital, so it either works or not. Assuming the PSU works as it should, why would it have any effect on the signal? And background programs, how do they affect USB signal? If the CPU is powerful enough to run the music player (like Foobar 2000 + WASAPI, not a very demanding program) plus other programs without stopping Foobar processing at any point, shouldn't it give a seamless signal to USB? Of course assuming that the PSU works.
technobear
14-07-2010, 16:40
I don't quite understand how something like programs running in background or a power supply could possibly affect USB signal quality. It's all digital, so it either works or not. Assuming the PSU works as it should, why would it have any effect on the signal? And background programs, how do they affect USB signal? If the CPU is powerful enough to run the music player (like Foobar 2000 + WASAPI, not a very demanding program) plus other programs without stopping Foobar processing at any point, shouldn't it give a seamless signal to USB? Of course assuming that the PSU works.
All electrical signals are analogue, the fact that we choose to interpret them digitally notwithstanding. All electrical signals contain noise. If this noise is conducted from the digital circuits into the analogue circuits, then sound quality will be reduced.
Furthermore, all digital signals contain jitter. The more jitter, the worse the resulting sound.
The amount of noise and jitter on a USB output will be affected by everything else that happens inside a computer and this will be dependent on the programs and services that are being executed at the time.
It's far more than just 1's and 0's. The perfect digital system doesn't exist (yet).
All electrical signals are analogue, the fact that we choose to interpret them digitally notwithstanding. All electrical signals contain noise. If this noise is conducted from the digital circuits into the analogue circuits, then sound quality will be reduced.
Furthermore, all digital signals contain jitter. The more jitter, the worse the resulting sound.
The amount of noise and jitter on a USB output will be affected by everything else that happens inside a computer and this will be dependent on the programs and services that are being executed at the time.
It's far more than just 1's and 0's. The perfect digital system doesn't exist (yet).
It shouldn't be that hard to design a DAC that in which the USB connector doesn't conduct any noise to analogue circuits. And that mystical jitter... Could you please tell me how "everything that happens inside a computer" affects USB jitter? I'd like to know some technical details :) And how does it affect the sound?
technobear
15-07-2010, 16:42
It shouldn't be that hard to design a DAC that in which the USB connector doesn't conduct any noise to analogue circuits. And that mystical jitter... Could you please tell me how "everything that happens inside a computer" affects USB jitter? I'd like to know some technical details :) And how does it affect the sound?
Actually it's very hard to design a DAC that rejects all incoming noise.
There is nothing mystical about jitter.
As for me writing a treatise on the workings of a PC and the efficacy of the USB bus, get lost! One: I'm on holiday. Two: these topics are already well covered a hundred times over on the web. Do your own homework :ner:
As to how it affects the sound, jitter tends to make the sound unnatural, glassy, hard, edgy, sibilant, mechanical, etc.
As jitter is reduced, the sound will become more natural, more flowing and easier on the ear.
As noise is reduced, detail and resolution will increase along with air, soundstage and transparency.
It shouldn't be that hard to design a DAC that in which the USB connector doesn't conduct any noise to analogue circuits.
There are several who are still looking to find out how to do this.
Up to now, the only solution that some have found is to convince others that all this noise or distortion "it doesn't matter" or that "it is not audible". Perhaps it's easier this way. ;)
And, btw, jitter is just distortion.
There is nothing mystical about jitter.
It was mystical for me as I didn't even know what the word exactly meant and I didn't know how it was supposed to affect sound quality. Now I do know, as I did some research. Also, apparently computer processes may have an effect on the amount of jitter...
There are several who are still looking to find out how to do this.
One way would be to convert the signal to optical inside the DAC :lolsign:
Up to now, the only solution that some have found is to convince others that all this noise or distortion "it doesn't matter" or that "it is not audible". Perhaps it's easier this way. ;)
And, btw, jitter is just distortion.
Maybe it isn't audible. See my next point.
Use of a wireless router/modem for BB is common these days.
Any thoughts on having your notebook/netbook connected to a WiFi network?
I've seen many here say that wireless streaming would be better than USB. But aside from digital noise, which isn't too much audible, it seems to have no real benefits over USB except wirelessness. Wifi streaming is quite jittery, but still based on many comments (though I'm not sure if I remember right) it sounds better than USB. The receiving device has to reclock it just like in USB streaming, so I wouldn't say it's any better than USB. Also jitter shouldn't have any effect on sound quality as long as the receiving device doesn't run out of buffer memory. Please tell me if I got something wrong :)
All in all, I've come to conclusion that I'll get a USB DAC (with coax out too, in case I'd get an opportunity to use it some time). I don't have too much money to spend on audio gear so Beresford DACs might be good budget choices. But I'll ask about them later in another thread. Thanks for all the comments and advice :)
All in all, I've come to conclusion that I'll get a USB DAC (with coax out too, in case I'd get an opportunity to use it some time). I don't have too much money to spend on audio gear so Beresford DACs might be good budget choices. But I'll ask about them later in another thread.
It's a good choice. There's no need of worrying, coax is better than USB, but the differences are not necessarily noticeable on all setups.
So, what is important is what you can hear, in your setup with your music. If there's no difference, still better. ;)
Thanks for all the comments and advice :)
You're welcome. :)
HanTheMan
28-07-2010, 11:49
Using a cheap computer is a path I have considered before - a few things to consider:
1) Computer needs to be quiet
Many netbooks and net tops have fans - however if you are only going to use the device as a music playback device & remove all background software, you should not be able to hear the fan on most computers manufactured in the last 5 years. Try to get a low spec computer - with out graphics card and additional electronics (which you really do not need) to generate heat, so that the cooling fans do not need to kick in.
The next noisiest component is the hard disk drive. If you can afford it get a solid state drive - there will be performance improvements but the most important difference is the lack of mechanical parts which add to noise. Unfortunately these are rather expensive for their capacity. An alternative is to run the OS and music server software on the computer but storage remotely on a network. This requires a bit more technical knowledge, and effort to set up, but is probably the best cost solution.
Lastly if your computer has a disc drive, never play directly from it. Very few drives are quiet, especially laptops ones, so ripping a cd to ssd or hdd is usally better. However, if your computer drive is very quiet or you get a very quiet external drive, pc disk drives are usually very good for direct playback quite good as they are normally buffered thus reducing jitter.
2) Computers need to be controlled
Here a laptop shines over a desktop. All laptops come with a keyboard, trackpad or some other pointer mechanism like a touchscreen. A desktop will need an additional monitor and at least 1 input device. There are quite a lot of factors influencing this and this is probably the most tricky part of interfacing with a system.
3) Computer needs to output audio
Most analog outputs on a desktop are terrible to decent depending on the sound processor. Laptops tend to be worse. Basically you will need a competent DAC somewhere in the line between your computer to your amplifier. This can be a soundcard (professional, Xonar or Xifi - all of them have advantages and disadvantages), an external DAC.
The DAc can be connected in various methods, USB is the most convenient, although some computers and laptops have a digital out of another type. Networking is an option - through Wifi, Lan cable even Bluetooth. Wireless signals can have interference, signal drops however - physical connections tend to be more reliable.
There are oversampling (1bit) and non-oversampling (nos or 0 bit) DACs - both work very differently - personally I'm more agreeable to the theory of non-oversampling, but this one you should audition for yourself. Implementation is much more important than theory.
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