When to MM or MM a curious thing, I've been playing again

[AJSki2fly]

Well out of curiosity and a desire to understand how a simple change effects the overall SQ of my system I have been Cartridge swapping, and thought you might find this interesting.

Firstly I have these MC cartridges, Ortofon Rondo Blue ~250hrs use, Michell Cusis (Micro Benz Wood S in composite body) ~700hrs use, and Benz Micro LP-S ~ 200hrs use

Then I have this MM Ortofon OM with Dual DN165E stylus ~2hrs use, this was given to me about 3 years ago and was brand new unused.

Firstly how I would grade the cartridges, from 1-10, first figure is soundstage, 2nd is for detail/clarity, 3rd is top end clarity, 4th is for bass control/depth, last is overall musicallity listenability.

Rondo Blue - 8.5, 8, 8.5, 8, 8.5

Michell Cusis - 9, 9, 9, 9.5, 9

Benz Micr LP-S - 9.5, 9.5, 10, 9.5, 9.5 or above

and now we come to the MM

Ortofon OM/DN165E 8.5, 8, 8, 8, 8

For reference the only change when using a MM cartridge is to remove the Rothwell MCX SUT, which is pretty neutral and performs very well, better than the MC side of the LFD IMO, but this is a very subtle difference. I also took great efforts setting up the Ortofon OM/DN165E in my TT and also used the HiFi news test record to check this, and it tracked every test track perfectly. When setting up I did take time to dial in the VTA on the arm and found that being very slightly down at the rear gave the best result, and I mean very sightly.

So lets put this into context, the Rondo Blue was originally around £550, the Michell Cusis £1100, and the LP-S is £2800, and last but not least is the Ortofon OM at an eye watering price of about £60 (I think). Is the 9.5 for the LP-S actually and 15% improvement in SQ over the Ortofon OM/DN165E? Actually IMHO it certainly is not, maybe somewhere between 5-10% at most, but you really need to be listening for it, not just casually listening, if you are just putting on a record and not focusing on it then forget spending big bucks, even then this is questionable.

So to summarise, based on the scores above the £60 MM cartridge certainly performs very well and is very good VFM (I am not exactly sure where the OM/DN165E would fit in the current OM range but I would presume similar to an OM 5E). But this is where it is subjectively in terms of my personal listening experience, the Rondo Blue is certainly a great listen, maybe a tinge top-endy, the Cusis is a lovely cartridge, very natural and musical, the LP-S is an outright winner but only in terms of that little extra detail and definition over the Cusis. So finally the Ortofon OM/DN165E, well this has actually taken me aback somewhat, I am sat here listening to Eva Cassidy ‎– Nightbird, Label: Blix Street Records ‎– BOX20142, 7 × Vinyl, LP, 45 RPM with it and I have to say it is extremely listenable, lots of detail and control, and pretty musical. I have also listened to some other favourite test listening tracks and feel the same. By the way since starting to write this I have played another 2 hour of records and I am pretty sure it is improving, becoming a little richer and slightly more detail, presumably bedding in, as I said it was brand new when I fitted it last night.

So I think I have learned a big lesson here in terms of hifi and SQ reward, so much so that I think I will probably invest in a better MM cartridge for my everyday use, and just replace the stylus when needed, I will use the MC's when I feel like a change and when they are used up will move them on for someone else to re-tip. I might keep the LP-S but only if I can afford to re-tip it at the time. My current thoughts based on what I have seen others say would be an ORTOFON 2M BLACK MM, but I am open to other suggestions or views.

[Mike Reed]

Adrian, that's quite an experiment, and I'm relieved to see the LP-S figures topping all others. However, bear in mind that this was through one phono stage (which may well have a positive or negative bias to certain cart's).

I 'found' an old VMS 20E mk 2 (must have picked it up somewhere in the past but never used it) and installed it on an inappropriate arm (12" Ace Anna at about 14g) and was amazed at the result. Others heard it at a bake-off so it wasn't just an aberration of my hearing. I have, on the other (gimballed) arm, a Proteus, and well remember how my K. Urushi sounded when in circuit.

I made me seriously wonder if the extra thousands of £££ justified those little extra nuances in s.q. (the Ortofon is worth, say, £50 ish). However, the mm went into the mm stage of my pre. and the others into the mc inputs. Think I'm still sold on getting that extra involvement, but to hear a 30 to 40 year old mm sounding like that surprised me greatly. It's still on the arm as it's not worth selling but doesn't get used in favour of the Proteus.

[AJSki2fly]

Adrian, that's quite an experiment, and I'm relieved to see the LP-S figures topping all others. However, bear in mind that this was through one phono stage (which may well have a positive or negative bias to certain cart's).

I 'found' an old VMS 20E mk 2 (must have picked it up somewhere in the past but never used it) and installed it on an inappropriate arm (12" Ace Anna at about 14g) and was amazed at the result. Others heard it at a bake-off so it wasn't just an aberration of my hearing. I have, on the other (gimballed) arm, a Proteus, and well remember how my K. Urushi sounded when in circuit.

I made me seriously wonder if the extra thousands of £££ justified those little extra nuances in s.q. (the Ortofon is worth, say, £50 ish). However, the mm went into the mm stage of my pre. and the others into the mc inputs. Think I'm still sold on getting that extra involvement, but to hear a 30 to 40 year old mm sounding like that surprised me greatly. It's still on the arm as it's not worth selling but doesn't get used in favour of the Proteus.

Much the same as my findings Mike. I did consider the phono stage differences but the MC's are all similar loading and the MCX SUT is a good match for all of them and as I said works well with the LFD phono on MM.

As I said it certainly makes me wonder if over £500-600 on a cartridge is worth the benefits, especially when you also take into account the running cost for a £2K is about £1.50 per play of a record, based on a life of 1000 hours and an average of 40 minutes an LP. Whereas £500 MM cartridge is about 37p and once you replace the stylus it is about 23p an LP. A substantial cost difference to a mid to high end MC cartridge, and if you listen as much as me and have a limited budget it is not that unimportant.

[Jac Hawk]

HiFi is a game of diminishing returns, once above a base level the differences become smaller and smaller it's always been like that, system synergy is probably the most important thing, making sure that everything plays happily with everything else

[AJSki2fly]

Much the same as my findings Mike. I did consider the phono stage differences but the MC's are all similar loading and the MCX SUT is a good match for all of them and as I said works well with the LFD phono on MM.

As I said it certainly makes me wonder if over £500-600 on a cartridge is worth the benefits, especially when you also take into account the running cost for a £2K is about £1.50 per play of a record, based on a life of 1000 hours and an average of 40 minutes an LP. Whereas £500 MM cartridge is about 37p and once you replace the stylus it is about 23p an LP. A substantial cost difference to a mid to high end MC cartridge, and if you listen as much as me and have a limited budget it is not that unimportant.

Just had a thought maybe my ears have deteriorated to the point I can't hear that much difference anyway, :doh:, I hope not but it probably is something to do with it. :D Just listening to Supertramp - Crime of the Century with the Ortofon OM/DN165E and strangely enough it sounds very much like I recall it sounding when I had a Dual 505 with the same cartridge on it many years ago.:scratch:

[CageyH]

I have been pondering over getting an expensive (€1k) MC cartridge, but it is the law of diminishing returns, and the cost per LP that puts me off. A decent MM will give 80 to 90% (probably) of a good MC, and is much more wallet friendly.

Recently I have been using an Audio Technica AT20SLa, and I am quite happy with it. I never did like the 2M Black though. I found it a bit cold and clinical, but I guess that is a matter of taste and the system it is partnered with.

[martinswimmer]

This is very interesting.
Recently I've been experimenting in a similar fashion and my findings are similar to yours.

For the sake of keeping things simple, I've only been using a single turntable and a single tonearm. The phono stage is Valab LCR, that doesn't seem to allow for capacitance settings.
The preamp is passive.

The cartridges used were:

MC
Shelter 901 Mk3, Entre EC-1, Supex SDX-1000, Sony XL-55 Pro, Ortofon MC25FL

MM & MI
Shure Ultra 500, Technics EPC205 Mk3, Grado FT+ and AT-110

I could grade them like you did in terms of various SQ parameters, but I found that their performance varied comparatively depending on the genre and the record itself.
Also, how can one meaningfully compare all these very different cartridges without showing some sympathy for their compliance needs?

My only conclusion was that some cartridges are much more universal - so produce more enjoyable sound playing different records, but that each of these cartridges was showing particular strengths.
There wasn't a single one that could be discarded as being sub standard in every sense.

The most flawed out of them all was the Grado, but then that same Grado was capable of playing otherwise totally unlistenable records, in particular operas and thin classical recordings. With the right record is has an amazing PRAT.

The Technics is the most forward one - very impressive with Rock, great separation and crystal clear

The Shure is very competent but along with the Technics presents a picture which has great bass and great highs but a thin mid-range. Might have been compliance issue.

The Sony is a truly amazing cartridge which has some qualities that I've never heard anywhere else and is the most universal cartridge here, so easily my favourite

Supex and EC-1 - very smooth

AT - amazing for the money

There's a guy on Youtube - HALCRO and he compares many interesting cartridges - i found my favourite there, but it's a Youtube clip, different setup...

My takeaway is that the price is not indicative of the SQ. You definitely seem to get more of a bang for money with vintage cartridges, but then there are issues with them potentially being worn out or with suspension issues.
But perhaps cheaper buying a few of these past masters and selling them on if not good in your system.

[AJSki2fly]

I have been pondering over getting an expensive (€1k) MC cartridge, but it is the law of diminishing returns, and the cost per LP that puts me off. A decent MM will give 80 to 90% (probably) of a good MC, and is much more wallet friendly.

Recently I have been using an Audio Technica AT20SLa, and I am quite happy with it. I never did like the 2M Black though. I found it a bit cold and clinical, but I guess that is a matter of taste and the system it is partnered with.

I have found that the Ortofon cartridges can be quite picking on setup, particularly VTA, so having an TT/ARM set up that allows you to dial it in to the sweet spot I think is quite important. I have found the Micro Benz to be similar in that respect as well. I will have to try and have a listen to a 2m Black and see if it is for more or not, so hard to do with cartridges though.

[AJSki2fly]

This is very interesting.
Recently I've been experimenting in a similar fashion and my findings are similar to yours.

For the sake of keeping things simple, I've only been using a single turntable and a single tonearm. The phono stage is Valab LCR, that doesn't seem to allow for capacitance settings.
The preamp is passive.

The cartridges used were:

MC
Shelter 901 Mk3, Entre EC-1, Supex SDX-1000, Sony XL-55 Pro, Ortofon MC25FL

MM & MI
Shure Ultra 500, Technics EPC205 Mk3, Grado FT+ and AT-110

I could grade them like you did in terms of various SQ parameters, but I found that their performance varied comparatively depending on the genre and the record itself.
Also, how can one meaningfully compare all these very different cartridges without showing some sympathy for their compliance needs?

......

My takeaway is that the price is not indicative of the SQ. You definitely seem to get more of a bang for money with vintage cartridges, but then there are issues with them potentially being worn out or with suspension issues.
But perhaps cheaper buying a few of these past masters and selling them on if not good in your system.

Hi Martin, it is interesting that others have similar findings, perhaps the MC arena is not all the panacea it is cracked up to be. You have quite a varied selection of cartridges there.

I my case, in terms of compliance needs I presume you are talking about cartridge/arm compliance, in my case all of the MC cartridges I have work well in a mid range compliant arm, so I am reasonably comfortable they perform well in my set up. The MM Ortofon OM/DN165E is only 5gm but this is just inside what the Pro-Ject 10" Signature arm will work with, I checked it with the HiFi news test tracks and the resonance is better than I expected being at just above 8hz, so acceptable.

I take your point on genre and individual records, but I think I would try and get to just two cartridges to cover all.

I looked at the Shure Ultra 500 and it sells for quite a bit it seems.

[CageyH]

I have found that the Ortofon cartridges can be quite picking on setup, particularly VTA, so having an TT/ARM set up that allows you to dial it in to the sweet spot I think is quite important. I have found the Micro Benz to be similar in that respect as well. I will have to try and have a listen to a 2m Black and see if it is for more or not, so hard to do with cartridges though.

My FX-1200 has VTA adjustable on the fly, easy to dial in to the sweet spot. It is just as awkward as my other Shibata tipped cartridges to dial in.

[martinswimmer]

I take your point on genre and individual records, but I think I would try and get to just two cartridges to cover all.

I looked at the Shure Ultra 500 and it sells for quite a bit it seems.

I meant that I didn't manage to match the tonearm compliance because my cartridges range from very compliant to not.

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).
After I've done that - I'll rationalise the collection - allocate a cartridge for different genres, then mark every record that I own with the turntable/tonearm/cartridge that it should be played on.

[Barry]

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).


Of the cartridges you mention, I have experience of a few of them:

Shure V15 V-MR: a significant improvement on the, then ubiquitous V15 III. Very good and worth keeping as long as you can get the stylii,

JVC X-1: This has a Shibata profile stylus and has the hottest treble of any cartridge I have heard. Initially impressive with a false sense of detail, but quickly becomes tiring,

Grace F9E: One of the best MMs around, made even better if an F-11E stylus is fitted in place. Sadly no longer in production, so the same situation as with Shure,

Ikeda (cantileverless MC designs): If you like the attack and 'air' of the Deccas coupled with the refinement of a good MC, then this could well be your last cartridge - it is mine.

Since Ikeda was the chief engineer at Fidelity Research, all of the FR cartridges are well worth considering.

[martinswimmer]

Of the cartridges you mention, I have experience of a few of them:

Shure V15 V-MR: a significant improvement on the, then ubiquitous V15 III. Very good and worth keeping as long as you can get the stylii,

JVC X-1: This has a Shibata profile stylus and has the hottest treble of any cartridge I have heard. Initially impressive with a false sence of detail, but quickly becomes tiring,

Grace F9E: One of the best MMs around, made even better if an F-11E stylus is fitted in place. Sadly no longer in production, so the same situation as with Shure,

Ikeda (cantileverless MC designs): If you like the attack and 'air' of the Deccas coupled with the refinement of a good MC, then this could well be your last cartridge - it is mine.

Since Ikeda was the chief engineer at Fidelity Research, all of the FR cartridges are well worth considering.

Hi Barry, thanks for this.

Shure - Jico now sells the MR stylus.
Your JVC X-1 remark is interesting and I expect it to be just like you described it.
I've never owned a Decca and the reason why I'm not considering one is because it's not possible to guarantee that the one I finish up buying is a good one and that will bother me, hence the Ikeda :-)
I do like the sound of Decca.

[Mike Reed]

Just a thought, Adrian. The ability to detect the greatest differences in presentation and performance from cart's must largely depend upon the arm. You wouldn't get much out of a stone-bodied Koetsu when used on a Linn basic, e.g.

Whereas magnets etc. work well in nearly all low medium mass arms (<12g, e.g.), coils differ widely and also demand capable arms, i.m.o.

[AJSki2fly]

Just a thought, Adrian. The ability to detect the greatest differences in presentation and performance from cart's must largely depend upon the arm. You wouldn't get much out of a stone-bodied Koetsu when used on a Linn basic, e.g.

Whereas magnets etc. work well in nearly all low medium mass arms (<12g, e.g.), coils differ widely and also demand capable arms, i.m.o.

The Pro-Ject Signature 10" arm has 15.5gm effective mass (18,5 with Aluminium headshell) and Pro-Ject say it is good for "A unique counterweight construction allows you to balance cartridges from 5 up to 25 grams (excluding headshell) depending on weight of the chosen headshell (up to 37 grams with ´Alu´, up to 39 grams with ´Carbon´, up to 41 grams with ´Wood´). So, this is also an ideal tonearm for direct mounting of SPU cartridges."

The Rondo is 10.5 g, the Michell Cusis is 8.5g, and the LP-S is 16g. So all the MCs are well within arm spec and all set up and track very well, I have tried them all with both the Pro-Ject Aluminium Headshell and the Timestep Ebony one I have, which adds a bit to the weight but it still within spec with the LP-S. I have found that I prefer both the Cusis and LP-S with the ebony head shell, bass to low mids are better controlled and defined, and slightly better soundstage, I have come to the conclusion this may be due to the base of of both these cartridges being metal and possibly transferring resonance via a metal headshell contact. It makes little difference which head shell I use with the Rondo blue. the Ortofon OM also has a metal base and I have only tried it with the aluminium head shell, so it would be interesting it the ebony head shel improves this as well.

I find it quite interesting that at times small changes can make quite a change to tone and/or presentation, but I have found you have to listen to a particular setup for a while with well known records before jumping to conclusions or deciding somas better or worse then another.

[Mike Reed]

Hi Adrian, Simply from received wisdom, any arm which can allow SPUs to flourish has to be a good one! Can't see magnets doing well, but as I've found with my VMS, this is not a given. My K. Black Goldline thrived in my 11g SME Five, and my Vermillion sounded pretty good too, but it was only when I changed to the longer and slightly heavier arms that the Urushi really shone (and would be even better in a 20g + arm, I guess. The Black was sold before changing arms.

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Adrian, Simply from received wisdom, any arm which can allow SPUs to flourish has to be a good one! Can't see magnets doing well, but as I've found with my VMS, this is not a given. My K. Black Goldline thrived in my 11g SME Five, and my Vermillion sounded pretty good too, but it was only when I changed to the longer and slightly heavier arms that the Urushi really shone (and would be even better in a 20g + arm, I guess. The Black was sold before changing arms.

Hi Mike, I agree with your thoughts, I have tried most of my cartridges with two previously owned arms, an SME IV which was nearer to a V (it just didn't have the bias wheel adjuster) and a Jelco TK850M 10". The carts worked ok with the SME but one occasions it felt a little flat, this was on a upgraded Gyrodec and a Voyd, it worked better on the Voyd, I put this differences down to feedback and isolation issues with the Gyrodec to the Arm. With the Jelco both the Cusis and LP-S came alive, everything seemed to have more zing and energy, and interestingly this has remained the case with the Project 10", but perhaps slightly more control and definition especially in the lower registers.

I think it is very difficult to be completely clear with this stuff, really what you need is identical TT's side by side with differenct arms and the ability to switch a cartridge from one to the other on the fly and do back to back comparisons with at least 10 very well known tracks, then you have a chance of getting a clear audible picture of which you prefer, something I will never be able to do I think.

[Mike Reed]

I think it is very difficult to be completely clear with this stuff, really what you need is identical TT's side by side with differenct arms and the ability to switch a cartridge from one to the other on the fly and do back to back comparisons with at least 10 very well known tracks, then you have a chance of getting a clear audible picture of which you prefer, something I will never be able to do I think.

You and me both, Adrian, and most of the audio fraternity to boot, I'd suggest.:) Besides, I dunno about you, but experimentation and tweakery may be very interesting and even informative, but it ain't listening to music !!! Changing I/Cs around (CD to pre; pre to powers etc.) may elicit subjectively positive changes, but they're soon forgotten. One you've got adequate synergy, use the stuff for the purpose intended ! Pity that audiophiles tend to keep seeking the sunny uplands of musical thrills. :lol:

[Mike Reed]

I meant that I didn't manage to match the tonearm compliance because my cartridges range from very compliant to not.

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).
After I've done that - I'll rationalise the collection - allocate a cartridge for different genres, then mark every record that I own with the turntable/tonearm/cartridge that it should be played on.

Dear me, Martin; this seems like a bookkeeper's approach to recorded music !:lol: Of the three last mentioned cart's, you might have almost covered the tonal range ! Miyajima equates to Koetsu; Phasemation is in the wider Transfig. camp (or Benz to Lyra in extent, I s'pose) and the Ikeda, from received wisdom, the coil version of a Decca. An arm in excess of 20g is beneficial for most Miyajimas, even more so than Koetsu. Hugo (Ammonite Audio) is a distant neighbour (Norwich) and does the first two cart's, along with arms which complement them. He had a Shilabe on his Thorens TD124 (not sure about arm) alongside my Urushi Vermillion on Dais and 12" PU7. We (bake-off) were surprised at the similarity in presentation.

[AJSki2fly]

You and me both, Adrian, and most of the audio fraternity to boot, I'd suggest.:) Besides, I dunno about you, but experimentation and tweakery may be very interesting and even informative, but it ain't listening to music !!! Changing I/Cs around (CD to pre; pre to powers etc.) may elicit subjectively positive changes, but they're soon forgotten. One you've got adequate synergy, use the stuff for the purpose intended ! Pity that audiophiles tend to keep seeking the sunny uplands of musical thrills. :lol:

Exactly! I am pretty certain that within my available budget I am happy (very happy) with how it all sounds, even with these tired ears. As long as I can sit an enjoy what I hear I am happy. The MM debacle was to serve 2 purposes, one to satisfy my curiosity and the other to see if I could find an acceptable cartridge listening solution at a relatively more economic level that would help me more in the long term. I suspect that I will only get to buy one more £2-3K MC cartridge and so would like to have other options, even if their is a small compromise on detail.

I just remember my best friend happens to have a hardly used Ortofon stylus 40 from Dual TT some years back, so he is going to let me try it out and see what I think.

[martinswimmer]

Dear me, Martin; this seems like a bookkeeper's approach to recorded music !:lol:

Hi Mike, thanks for the notes on sound signatures and tonearm matching.

Just to answer the bookkeeper's approach - I'm introducing the Agile methodology into my Hifi hobby ;-). Quick iterations, speed matching components and getting rid of anything that doesn't really impress me.
It has to be 3 systems - an idler, belt and DD and the idea is to have multi tonearm setup and dedicated rigs for genres and for particular records. I'm moving away from anything suspended because I don't want to be eternally tweaking.

I know exactly what I'm looking for in terms of the sound - low distortion, low fatigue, good bass and don't care much about realistic cymbals and perfect imaging and various other sub-atomic components of the sound taken in isolation.

It has to be a full bodied, moving sound that is very intimate. The main thing in my philosophy is that I don't want a system which plays a few select records really, really well. I want a system (systems) that plays most of my records very well. I don't want to be stunned by an odd track - it has to be consistently pleasing. Very important is that I can grab any opera recording and not have my wife screaming to turn the volume down ;-)

That's why I'm attacking all the legendary cartridges in order to find not THE ONE, but a bunch of cartridges that would fit my multiple genres objective and still satisfy the above criteria. Then the tonearms :-(

[Mike Reed]

Martin, of the cart's I've had, admittedly on different decks, arms and with varying degrees of amplification/ speaker systems, the one I put right up there at the top is my current Proteus. The precursors included Linn Karma, Roksan Shiraz, Lyra Clavis and Helikon, Koetsu Blk. Goldline and Urushi Vermillion and Benz Ebony LP over, say, a 35 year period.

The reason that I rate this cart. (and its lesser siblings) is the sheer transparency. It simply doesn't have a tonal signature. Unfortunately, Immutable Studios is no more, but occasionally a Phoenix or Phoenix S comes up as n.o.s. or v. low hours. Transfig's are happy in medium mass arms, too I have a fair classical collection, sadly many of which were too well played or bought used, and found the Benz and Transfig. exc. for this genre; the former being very slightly warmer. Just my take, of course, as deck, arm and phono stage alone are intrinsic parts of the whole, as you know.

My long-held aspiration for a stone-bodied K started receding when K prices started going through the roof when the £ devalued. However, haven't seen one for sale for the best part of a long time !

[martinswimmer]

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely look up the Proteus. I'd also like to experience some Koetsu goodness, but at the moment trying to work my way down the original hitlist.
I feel that the ikeda will be difficult to source at a reasonable price. it does intrigue me immensely though.

[scotty67]

For what it's worth I've recently owned a Koetsu mc, Hana mc and currently a Goldring 1022gx mm.

MM Goldring with valve phono stage does it for me.

[RobbieGong]

For what it's worth I've recently owned a Koetsu mc, Hana mc and currently a Goldring 1022gx mm.

MM Goldring with valve phono stage does it for me.

Apparently the Goldring 1042 is a cracking mm cart and a bit of a bargain as well, from what I've heard and read, so might would be worth seeking when/if you get the itch.

I've read from users on forums that it is sensitive to set up which doesn't surprise me as it has a Fritz Gyger S stylus tip on it, which has what they call a sophisticated stylus profile.

In my experience, with these sophisticated profiles, once you've nailed set up you'll be pretty amazed and blown away

[Made in 1968]

I thought the '1042' was a bit bright, why i prefer the new 'E3'.

[RobbieGong]

I thought the '1042' was a bit bright, why i prefer the new 'E3'.

Never heard or read it described as bright Andre, In fact quite the opposite as in neutral, which is how the Fritz Gyger S stylus profile on my re-tipped Cadenza Black presents, absolutely neutral and spot on in terms of tonal balance

http://www.audioreview.com/product/analog-sources/turntables/goldring/g-1042.html

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/g1042e.html

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_reviews.php?make=Goldring&model=1042

[Made in 1968]

Was deffo a tad bright to my ears Rob

[enrae8]

Apparently the Goldring 1042 is a cracking mm cart and a bit of a bargain as well, from what I've heard and read, so might would be worth seeking when/if you get the itch.

I've read from users on forums that it is sensitive to set up which doesn't surprise me as it has a Fritz Gyger S stylus tip on it, which has what they call a sophisticated stylus profile.

In my experience, with these sophisticated profiles, once you've nailed set up you'll be pretty amazed and blown away

I had a Goldring 1042 a long while ago thoroughly enjoyed it
- I do love the Cadenza Black a cracking Cart :thumbsup:

[Clive197]

........I do love the Cadenza Black a cracking Cart :thumbsup:

I used to run a Cadenza Black but to my surprise it has been bettered by a Hana ML at nearly half the price.

[AJSki2fly]

So my best friend sent me his Ortofon Stylus 40 that he has had knocking about for over 5 years and it is virtually new having only played 3 or 4 records, it arrived yesterday.

Having already got the Ortofon OM set up on the Pro-Ject Aluminium head shell it was just a matter of plugging in the Stylus 40, swapping head shells over and then check VTF, VTA and tracking, 30 minutes of so and all done.

So on went some of the usual test tracks, Eva Cassidy - Fields of Gold, Ravi Shankar - Tala Rasa Ranga (Portrait of a Genius), first impressions were well this sounds rather good. I think more detail in the top & mids and better bass control than the DN165E stylus. I went onto Alan Parsons Project - I Robot and this produce quite a bit of punch and attack with a very good soundstage.

So first impressions were good.

I have continued to listened to albums Sinéad O'Connor ‎– I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got and Peter Gabrial IV(Security) and I have been impressed with the renditions of both. I think stylus is actually improving and I presume is now bedding in. I was intending to just listen to a couple of tracks from each, but as I was enjoying them so much listened to them fully.

Next was Paul Simon - Graceland - The In the Bubble, anyone who this album and this track in particular will know that it has some challenging bass for a stylus to reproduce without distortion, and lots of subtle detail with the accordion and also punching drums beats. I thought this would be a bit of a challenge for the OM/40 stylus but it actually just took it in its stride, coping with what the groove threw at it, producing a very listenable and foot tapping rendition.

So it may be a bit early to compare the Ortofon OM/40 Stylus with my Benz Micro's, especially as it is still settling down, but I think it is worth a few words. I am actually surprised at how much detail the Ortofon OM/40 Stylus is giving me, and also gives a very good soundstage, at the moment there is nothing I can detect about it that I do not like or find irritating. In terms of differences between it and the Benz Micro MCs I would say it is a littler warmer tonally, which is actually quite nice and relaxing in some ways. The LP-S definitely gives more in terms of detail and what some would call insight into the recording, but this is quite subtle especially if just listening to the music casually for the pleasure of hearing it.

So at the moment I am quite amazed at just how good a MM cartridge can be, considering the Super OM 5E can be brought for £70 and then the 40 Stylus for about £250, a total outlay of £320 this makes for a very good value cartridge IMO. It would be very interesting to know how an Ortofon 2m Black compare to it sonically.

[enrae8]

I used to run a Cadenza Black but to my surprise it has been bettered by a Hana ML at nearly half the price.
Sadly my Cadenza Black got wiped out by she who cleans :(
I tried a couple of Transfigurations before I settled on another Ortofon which I am more than happy with :D

[enrae8]

So at the moment I am quite amazed at just how good a MM cartridge can be, considering the Super OM 5E can be brought for £70 and then the 40 Stylus for about £250, a total outlay of £320 this makes for a very good value cartridge IMO. It would be very interesting to know how an Ortofon 2m Black compare to it sonically.

I don't think I'm surprised at your findings - I feel I've gone way too far with the Kit - I hanker for the days when new music was exciting, and it didn't really matter too much about the SQ. I've got to the stage where I won't play some albums because the SQ is not up to a certain standard.
This thread has made me think again and I might just invest in a nice MM :thumbsup:

[RobbieGong]

I don't think I'm surprised at your findings - I feel I've gone way too far with the Kit - I hanker for the days when new music was exciting, and it didn't really matter too much about the SQ. I've got to the stage where I won't play some albums because the SQ is not up to a certain standard.
This thread has made me think again and I might just invest in a nice MM :thumbsup:

A turning point for me when I really started getting into hifi in a big way, upgrading, learning, and understanding etc was the 2M Black.

Once properly set up and sweet-spot found, that cart was a revelation in terms of what could be achieved and excellent vinyl replay, as well as what the sophisticated stylus profiles are about and bring to this game.

Part of that learning is the importance of meticulous set-up, dialing in vta to nail their all important sweet-spot, otherwise they just dont sing and the magic is not realised.

I can highly recommend the 2M Black, but be warned it can be a PITA to set up / nail it's sweet-spot. However when you do ..... :D

I've not experienced the Goldring 1042 but have heard and read that it is an excellent mm, a bit of a sleeper bargain apparently. I'm not surprised it is rated though as it has the Fritz Gyger S stylus profile tip - a superb stylus profile which is the re-tip on my Cadenza Black (and wow!).

Again, the FGS requires you set up all parameters with accuracy and care and as best you can, dial in vta, carefully :)

[CageyH]

For a top notch MM, have a look at the Audio Note IQ series. Probably one of the best.

[AJSki2fly]

For a top notch MM, have a look at the Audio Note IQ series. Probably one of the best.

It seems that the IQ series has to be ordered and is not readily available, from what I understand they are built bu Goldring to AN's specifications. Do you know what sort of price are they I cannot find anything on the internet. The other main options seems to be the Ortofon 2M Black or the Golden 2500.

[CageyH]

IQ2 cartridge £540, IQ3 cartridge £789
Not sure about the IQ1.

I had a 2M Black, and it was not for me. Too clinical for my tastes.
I thought that Nagaoka built them for Goldring and Audio Note.

[AJSki2fly]

IQ2 cartridge £540, IQ3 cartridge £789
Not sure about the IQ1.

I had a 2M Black, and it was not for me. Too clinical for my tastes.
I thought that Nagaoka built them for Goldring and Audio Note.

Ok thanks for that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[krugdoktor]

So my best friend sent me his Ortofon Stylus 40 that he has had knocking about for over 5 years and it is virtually new having only played 3 or 4 records, it arrived yesterday.

Having already got the Ortofon OM set up on the Pro-Ject Aluminium head shell it was just a matter of plugging in the Stylus 40, swapping head shells over and then check VTF, VTA and tracking, 30 minutes of so and all done.

So on went some of the usual test tracks, Eva Cassidy - Fields of Gold, Ravi Shankar - Tala Rasa Ranga (Portrait of a Genius), first impressions were well this sounds rather good. I think more detail in the top & mids and better bass control than the DN165E stylus. I went onto Alan Parsons Project - I Robot and this produce quite a bit of punch and attack with a very good soundstage.

So first impressions were good.

I have continued to listened to albums Sinéad O'Connor ‎– I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got and Peter Gabrial IV(Security) and I have been impressed with the renditions of both. I think stylus is actually improving and I presume is now bedding in. I was intending to just listen to a couple of tracks from each, but as I was enjoying them so much listened to them fully.

Next was Paul Simon - Graceland - The In the Bubble, anyone who this album and this track in particular will know that it has some challenging bass for a stylus to reproduce without distortion, and lots of subtle detail with the accordion and also punching drums beats. I thought this would be a bit of a challenge for the OM/40 stylus but it actually just took it in its stride, coping with what the groove threw at it, producing a very listenable and foot tapping rendition.

So it may be a bit early to compare the Ortofon OM/40 Stylus with my Benz Micro's, especially as it is still settling down, but I think it is worth a few words. I am actually surprised at how much detail the Ortofon OM/40 Stylus is giving me, and also gives a very good soundstage, at the moment there is nothing I can detect about it that I do not like or find irritating. In terms of differences between it and the Benz Micro MCs I would say it is a littler warmer tonally, which is actually quite nice and relaxing in some ways. The LP-S definitely gives more in terms of detail and what some would call insight into the recording, but this is quite subtle especially if just listening to the music casually for the pleasure of hearing it.

So at the moment I am quite amazed at just how good a MM cartridge can be, considering the Super OM 5E can be brought for £70 and then the 40 Stylus for about £250, a total outlay of £320 this makes for a very good value cartridge IMO. It would be very interesting to know how an Ortofon 2m Black compare to it sonically.

I also think the 40 Stylus is a bargain! I fitted it to a (secondhand) Concorde pro S and got an enormously enjoyable sound.