View Full Version : A short break chez Themis
Steve Toy
28-06-2010, 11:36
Tasha and I had the pleasure of spending a few days at Dimitri's place near Montpellier last week. The weather was fantastic as was the company, hospitality, Dimitri's cooking, the wine as well as a few restaurants we ate in - or rather outside of. :cool:
Tasha also enjoyed herself because we managed to restrain ourselves from talking about hi-fi from morning till bedtime :eyebrows:
Dimitri is clearly a music-lover first-and-foremost and this is made clear by the number of headphone setups he has, an iPod with a big enough memory to store plenty of uncompressed files for use hooked up to the car system as well as for use with headphones and of course the main system. Out and about we were never without music and I was introduced to a number of different artists I really liked and my own music collection is being enriched as a result. Francis Cabrel is an aging French pop/rockstar but his music still stirs the passions and is well recorded.
Regarding his system (Logitech Squeezebox/Beresford DAC into the Croft Micro pre/power and a very WAF-friendly pair of Sonus Faber floor standers) communicates the music in a fashion that keeps you listening and doesn't take your ears off. It's more laid-back than I'm used to but works great over extended periods. The speakers are also well time-aligned so should respond to improvements upstream in the future.
The equipment itself works well together in itself. The pre/power amp combo punches well above its weight and would compete with most at the £4000 mark. Any improvements (and there is always room for improvement, it's part and parcel to the hi-fi hobby for those who can be honest about it :mental:) would come through upgrading ancilliaries, notably isolation and incoming mains supply. His system passed the speaker grilles on/off test - they sound better off. :)
Dimitri and I agreed that given human nature and the desire to continually seek improvement, anyone who says they are truly satisfied with their system has either lost interest in the hobby or has somehow committed suicide....
"I'm more interested in the music, blah, blah, blah!"
Whatever! :rolleyes:
Improving your hi-fi gives you more music, especially if improved coherence is always your aim...
Mark Grant G1000HDs are already in use and Dimitri's system was able to show up clearly the improvement that is derived from swapping them for new ones with Neutrik Pro-fi connectors. With these, as expected, there was better leading edge definition which in turn improved perception of timing but not at the expense of note body and decay.
However, the improvement seemed to occur mainly in the upper mids and highs in his system. I suspect the reason is that lower down the frequency range there is a relatively bigger bottleneck than the interconnects. The bass, whilst not boomy or offensive in any way is a touch on the soft side and very slightly fruity and I think this could be remedied by improving isolation/incoming mains. I say this because in my own system the improvement in definition derived from the change of plugs on the ends og the G1000HDs is right across the board but then my mains and isolation are fairly well sorted.
We had already tried the Black Ravioli pads under both the Beresford DAC and the amps in turn and there were subtle but appreciable improvements in coherence. Suffice to say I did not take them home with me. To get the full effect he'll need a few more but having spoken to Mr. C about this on his behalf, a deal can be struck on some s/h ones.
I'll post some pics later when I've run a few errands. :)
Meet and greet (and then al-fresco lunch at Carnon)
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6509/chezdimitri2010002.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/chezdimitri2010002.jpg/)
Dimitri's hi-fi/home cinema system:
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7097/chezdimitri2010025.jpg (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/chezdimitri2010025.jpg/)
Crof pre/power on Black Ravioli:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7546/chezdimitri2010023.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/chezdimitri2010023.jpg/)
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/941/chezdimitri2010024.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/chezdimitri2010024.jpg/)
Dimitri and I agreed that given human nature and the desire to continually seek improvement, anyone who says they are truly satisfied with their system has either lost interest in the hobby or has somehow committed suicide....
What nonsense. I am truly satisfied with both of my systems, so now I can concentrate on adding to my music collection.
Steve Toy
28-06-2010, 21:41
Joe has committed suicide as a living human being or is in denial. Predictably in his case I think.
There are guys out there with music collections so large that it would take them several years to go through the lot and that would be a tortuous process if it were undertaken for its own sake. If I were to go through mine, say, alphabetically I'd want to put that arduous task off for a long time.
Music collectors can be like stamp collectors, we can discuss this in another thread.
Joe has committed suicide as a living human being or is in denial. Predictably in his case I think.
There are guys out there with music collections so large that it would take them several years to go through the lot and that would be a tortuous process if it were undertaken for its own sake. If I were to go through mine, say, alphabetically I'd want to put that arduous task off for a long time.
Music collectors can be like stamp collectors, we can discuss this in another thread.
Hah! My music isn't organised alphabetically or otherwise any more than my books are, I regard music as stuff to be listened to, just as I regard books as stuff to be read.
However, if I had to choose between giving up my music and giving up my hifi, I know which I'd choose.
Steve Toy
28-06-2010, 23:47
Joe, such choices are only in your head. The rest of us can manage both.
What's this "Black Ravioli" guff then? :scratch:
What's this "Black Ravioli" guff then? :scratch:
http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/blackravioli.asp
Hmmm... but what's in it? Is it a bag of fairy dust?
It might work better if things sat level on top of it, no? :scratch:
Hmmm... but what's in it? Is it a bag of fairy dust
No Idea, sure Mr C can elaborate.
It might work better if things sat level on top of it, no? :scratch:
Don't ask me, my cables touch the skirting board!
Joe, such choices are only in your head. The rest of us can manage both.
It's not just hypothetical in my case. When our eldest was born, we lost about half our income, mortgage rates were at 15% and rising, and babies are expensive anyway. I had to sell shedloads of stuff, including my guitar and camera as well as hifi bits and pieces, but the only thing I regret having sold was my copy of the double LP 'Nuggets'.
Croft or not, I'd never put the power amp on top of (or directly under) the preamp. The Sonus Fabers "laid back?" How harsh must those big Celan's sound like (I've heard the baby ones and they have a severe crossover bottleneck to me). Perhaps the port output could be a bit severe and some foam lining may just tame it a little - perhaps...
Steve Toy
29-06-2010, 22:08
Upon returning home the Celans sounded warmer than the Sonus Fabers and certainly not harsh in comparison. There is no lack of bass control in my system - bass hits your chest cavity with my meagre 29 Watts but the impedance dip is only down to 4 ohms which isn't far from the 6 ohm output of the amp. Dimitri told nme that the SFs dip to 2 ohms. Perhaps they are a tiny bit undernourished by the Crofts but I'd like to thing that a dedicated mains supply and improved component isolation could work wonders in improving bass grip a little.
I agree that stacking pre/power amps is hardly ideal, not least because of ventilation issues. The power amp was running quite hot at one point.
I find that speakers account for about 10% of the overall signature of a system and no more.
The Grand Wazoo
29-06-2010, 22:50
I find that speakers account for about 10% of the overall signature of a system and no more.
Interesting that you've ever thought to quantify such a thing Steve. How might you go about the process of doing that then?
The burning question I'd ask is what's happened to Dimitri? He seems to have disappeared............
Did you frighten him off with your pish-catchers, as well as drinking him out of house and home? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Well, I am very inexperienced in all things hifi, but attaching a different set of speakers to my system to my ears makes MUCH more difference to the "signature" than a change of CD player or Amp, so that does come as a surprise to me. I figured it was down to the interaction between speaker and room, but maybe I'm missing something.
Steve Toy
30-06-2010, 01:44
Speakers change little unless there is a mismatch between them and the room and/or the amp. Unless of course you are a round earther who listens to sounds rather than to the music passing through them.
Chris, it's difficult to quantify in percentage terms. Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit. 5% may be closer to the mark.
Marco, Dimitri works during the week away from home. Either that or he's been drinking the beers that were left :eyebrows:
As for the pish-catchers they were left at home. I was in Jesus sandals all week :eek:
Well, I am very inexperienced in all things hifi, but attaching a different set of speakers to my system to my ears makes MUCH more difference to the "signature" than a change of CD player or Amp, so that does come as a surprise to me. I figured it was down to the interaction between speaker and room, but maybe I'm missing something.
I think Steve's winding you up. Either that, or years of listening to Celine Dion have finally sent him doo-lally.
Unless of course you are a round earther who listens to sounds rather than to the music passing through them.
I've never really bought the extreme differentiation between round and flat earthers. Of course there will always be extremists (Al Qaeda could be an unsavoury parallel). Someone might only listen to musical interplay but not even notice there's no bass below 100Hz. Another person may want bass that loosens their fillings but doesn't notice that it obscures the mid-range.
What I'm saying is that to classify people as being in one camp or the other ignores the majority of (musically interested) people who actually manage to find a balance between the two shapes of the planet.
Steve Toy
30-06-2010, 12:03
Someone might only listen to musical interplay but not even notice there's no bass below 100Hz. Another person may want bass that loosens their fillings but doesn't notice that it obscures the mid-range
I need musical interplay AND bass below 100Hz so I can hear the bass player and kick drum as part of said interplay :p
Ali Tait
30-06-2010, 12:57
Speakers change little? I totally disagree with that.How can you say a ported floorstander sounds anything like a pair of electrostatics for example?
Steve Toy
30-06-2010, 13:06
As I said, room-amp-speaker interactions aside, speakers make little difference provided they are reasonably time-aligned and have an adequate frequency range.
Electrostatics are at the extreme end of speaker design so yes they'll make a bigger sonic difference. Given their speed they may communicate music better too in some respects.
Ali Tait
30-06-2010, 13:33
Well I wouldn't say that.Even what a cone is made of can make a clearly audible difference IMO,also how the box is constructed.Certainly in my experience they can make a greater subjective difference in a given setup than any other component.Agreed about the statics though,they do have better detail and speed than any cone speakers I've heard.They are not everyone's cup of tea though,and WAF is very low.
if those Sonus Fabers really do go down to 2 Ohms at some point, I fear for the croft, as Mosfets don't like low impedances as I remember.
Hi all, sorry for not being able to comment earlier on this...
First of all, I would like to thank Tasha and Steve for their visit and the nice company. :)
It's good to be with friends and have lots of time. ;)
Dimitri and I agreed that given human nature and the desire to continually seek improvement, anyone who says they are truly satisfied with their system has either lost interest in the hobby or has somehow committed suicide....
"I'm more interested in the music, blah, blah, blah!"
Whatever! :rolleyes:
Improving your hi-fi gives you more music, especially if improved coherence is always your aim...
It is an important point indeed.
The seek for perfection is inherent to a sane human nature. Ancient Greek believed this seek was an attempt to make humans continuously better. Hifi (like any other art) is part of this seek. Music can be part of it too.
The seek of perfection in music has nothing to do with music as an entertainment, and still less as part of the "Bread and Circuses", that the Romans used to promote (for political reasons). ;)
Anyway. The seek for perfection can take various forms and they all look fine (equivalent) to me. The shift from hifi to another hobby is not a problem.
What can be a problem is the total loss of interest in *any* seek for perfection. A pitiful state, imho.
That was in essence my thoughts on this philosophical evening, when we talked about this point with Steve.
if those Sonus Fabers really do go down to 2 Ohms at some point, I fear for the croft, as Mosfets don't like low impedances as I remember.
No worries about that, I sent to Glenn the complete impedance curve, and he concluded that it wouldn't be a problem for the amps. ;)
It's not just hypothetical in my case. When our eldest was born, we lost about half our income, mortgage rates were at 15% and rising, and babies are expensive anyway. I had to sell shedloads of stuff, including my guitar and camera as well as hifi bits and pieces, but the only thing I regret having sold was my copy of the double LP 'Nuggets'.
Sorry to hear that. :(
But, you didn't sell your dreams and hopes with all the rest, did you ? ;)
Sorry to hear that. :(
But, you didn't sell your dreams and hopes with all the rest, did you ? ;)
Not at all. It's surprising what suddenly becomes inessential when children arrive.
I got a CD copy of 'Nuggets' a year or so back, but it's just not the same.
The seek for perfection is inherent to a sane human nature. Ancient Greek believed this seek was an attempt to make humans continuously better. Hifi (like any other art) is part of this seek. Music can be part of it too.
The seek of perfection in music has nothing to do with music as an entertainment, and still less as part of the "Bread and Circuses", that the Romans used to promote (for political reasons). ;)
Anyway. The seek for perfection can take various forms and they all look fine (equivalent) to me. The shift from hifi to another hobby is not a problem.
What can be a problem is the total loss of interest in *any* seek for perfection. A pitiful state, imho.
There is a lot to be said for the Buddhist approach of moving away from the desire for more, bigger, better 'stuff' and being contented with what you've got. Seeking perfection in one's life by loosening the hold of possessions rather than by accumulating them.
There is a lot to be said for the Buddhist approach of moving away from the desire for more, bigger, better 'stuff' and being contented with what you've got. Seeking perfection in one's life by loosening the hold of possessions rather than by accumulating them.
Sorry I'm not familiar to the Buddhist approach. I'm extremely suspicious of religious philosophy.
Nevertheless, Diogenes was already like that : ascetic and making a virtue of extreme poverty.
A "possession" is just an exchange of labor. If you don't seek possessions, you probably produce nothing of interest to the others. It's everybody's right, of course, to do so. ;) But the contrary (producing) is not something incriminating, is it ?
But, what Diogenes was teaching (cynicism) was a tool to counter public decadence. In fact he believed that acting was more virtuous than theory. :)
Sorry I'm not familiar to the Buddhist approach. I'm extremely suspicious of religious philosophy.
Nevertheless, Diogenes was already like that : ascetic and making a virtue of extreme poverty.
A "possession" is just an exchange of labor. If you don't seek possessions, you probably produce nothing of interest to the others. It's everybody's right, of course, to do so. ;) But the contrary (producing) is not something incriminating, is it ?
But, what Diogenes was teaching (cynicism) was a tool to counter public decadence. In fact he believed that acting was more virtuous than theory. :)
I'm a fully-fledged agnostic myself. But I think that trying to find perfection via acquired objects is a doomed enterprise, and can, in extreme cases, lead to a great deal of unhappiness.
I'm a fully-fledged agnostic myself. But I think that trying to find perfection via acquired objects is a doomed enterprise, and can, in extreme cases, lead to a great deal of unhappiness.
Yes, it's a journey with a destination most people don't seek. Coming to terms with that is enlightenment....grasshopper....
Steve Toy
02-07-2010, 20:35
Joe's contentment enforced by circumstance is fine and his insistance that he is happy with his (hi-fi) lot can go uncontested.
What I would like to know is why contribute at all to audio discussions other than for nihilistic purposes if you have no desire to improve your system, not even slightly?
Joe's contentment enforced by circumstance is fine and his insistance that he is happy with his (hi-fi) lot can go uncontested.
What I would like to know is why contribute at all to audio discussions other than for nihilistic purposes if you have no desire to improve your system, not even slightly?
My 'contentment enforced by circumstances' dates back to a temporary financial crisis that arose over 20 years ago, when our eldest was born. In the intervening years I have put together two excellent systems. I'm sure I could improve further on either or both, but only for lots of money and at the expense of time that I find better spent listening to music. (Though the 'upstairs' CD player is making weird noises, and may need replacing soon).
The alternative, of being one or several upgrades away from an unattainable audio perfection, doesn't appeal.
As to why participate in discussions, well, I flatter myself that I have some limited experience to bring of different components, but most of my posts, as on PFM, go to the music and off-colour, sorry, off-topic rooms. So there you go.
Steve Toy
02-07-2010, 21:39
Music and off-colour on PFM are good. The audio section has become corrupted by technocrats and self-appointed consumer champions championing nothing other than the lowest common denominator.
Really? To me it seems more like a broad church with numerous sub-sects. A quick skim down the audio room titles reveals threads about Epos, Naim, Krell vs Exposure, Arcam, Weiss, Musical Fidelity, AT cartridges and Rega.
I'm a fully-fledged agnostic myself. But I think that trying to find perfection via acquired objects is a doomed enterprise, and can, in extreme cases, lead to a great deal of unhappiness.
I can't speak on behalf of other people, of course. But to me, there seem to be two things:
- First of all, hifi is not just objects : they are pieces of fine art. Made by knowledgeable craftsmen, in their search for perfection.
- Second, the acquirement of the pieces of art is not the target. The search is more important.
I am not sure whether I am explicit enough... :o
Steve Toy
02-07-2010, 22:07
The art of sound is the composition of said objects and how they are implemented.
As such it is not the materialism associated with the acquisition of material objects like nice cars, jewellery, furniture etc.
Hi-fi improvements (not all these are component upgrades) are about revealing more musical information on the recording and the interplay between different strands of that information.
It is thus an intellectual and emotional discovery rather than mere and gratuitous acquisition of material possesssions.
There will always be those who have other priorities and those for whom priorities change in the pursuit of happiness but in human nature there is no real satisfaction in simply making do with what you've got.
Really? To me it seems more like a broad church with numerous sub-sects. A quick skim down the audio room titles reveals threads about Epos, Naim, Krell vs Exposure, Arcam, Weiss, Musical Fidelity, AT cartridges and Rega.
Wot - nothing about Linn?? :eek:
I do like pfm (it's the only forum I bother reading apart from here), but, IMO, it does rather suffer from its staunchly flat-earth Linn/Naim roots, IMO. The never-ending (and circular) babbling about Linn this, Naim that, is unfortunately somewhat yawn-inducing. In that respect, it's the same old, same old.
I guess we have it too, to an extent, on AOS with the likes of Technics T/Ts and Beresford DACs, but at least those items, and discussions revolving around them, in comparison, are fairly new to their respective 'fanboys' and the audio enthusiast world in general ;)
Marco.
I can't speak on behalf of other people, of course. But to me, there seem to be two things:
- First of all, hifi is not just objects : they are pieces of fine art. Made by knowledgeable craftsmen, in their search for perfection.
- Second, the acquirement of the pieces of art is not the target. The search is more important.
I am not sure whether I am explicit enough... :o
That's explicit enough, thanks (not sure I agree with all of it though).
Wot - nothing about Linn?? :eek:
I do like pfm (it's the only forum I bother reading apart from here), but, IMO, it does rather suffer from its staunchly flat-earth Linn/Naim roots, IMO. The never-ending (and circular) babbling about Linn this, Naim that, is unfortunately somewhat yawn-inducing. In that respect, it's the same old, same old.
I guess we have it too, to an extent, on AOS with the likes of Technics T/Ts and Beresford DACs, but at least those items, and discussions revolving around them, in comparison, are fairly new to their respective 'fanboys' and the audio enthusiast world in general ;)
Marco.
There actually is a thread about Linn, but it's titled 'Vivid upgrades' and I missed that it was about upgrades to the LP12.
It's not just that PFM has lots of Linn/Naim fanbois, it's also that there are a fair number who are extremely anti Linn/Naim, so, as with debates between cable sceptics and believers, there's a fair few circular discussions. But there's plenty of tube and horn enthusiasts on there too.
There will always be those who have other priorities and those for whom priorities change in the pursuit of happiness but in human nature there is no real satisfaction in simply making do with what you've got.
I fundamentally disagree; I believe a large element in achieving happiness is being content with what you have.
Improvements to my system bring me interest but I don't strive for my system to be "the ultimate", that's simply chasing rainbows and will only lead to unhappiness. I do however strive for (and have achieved) a great sound.
Steve Toy
03-07-2010, 10:03
Joe is super human! :eek:
I am happy with the progress my hi-fi/musical enjoyment thus far.
Joe, happiness requires all of three things:
1) Something to do
2) Someone to love
3) Something to aim for
I have an idea that you manage 1) and 2) quite easily.
I do wonder what you do to achieve 3). Acquisition of more music is clearly not enough or you'd be satisfied with "Nuggets" on CD.
Improvements to my system bring me interest but I don't strive for my system to be "the ultimate", that's simply chasing rainbows and will only lead to unhappiness. I do however strive for (and have achieved) a great sound.
Ditto!
Marco.
Improvements to my system bring me interest but I don't strive for my system to be "the ultimate", that's simply chasing rainbows and will only lead to unhappiness. I do however strive for (and have achieved) a great sound.
Yes, so have I; the point is I now I have achieved a great sound I longer feel the need to keep striving!
Yes, so have I; the point is I now I have achieved a great sound I longer feel the need to keep striving!
I think we're talking semantics here. I have a great sound, I'm not striving to improve it but I do like try a few things for interests sake. It's a bit like collecting books or music, most of us have more than we can possibly read or play but new introductions to our collections help stimulate interest.
I love music and I'm also interested in the technology for reproducing it so I don't stand still with my system but I'm not make massive changes either.
Joe is super human! :eek:
I know.
Joe, happiness requires all of three things:
1) Something to do
2) Someone to love
3) Something to aim for
I have an idea that you manage 1) and 2) quite easily.
Happiness, to quote the great philosopher Ken Dodd, means different things to different people. I have seen it defined as 'Loose shoes, tight pussy, and a warm place to shit'. Someone else said: 'All that is really needed for happiness is a good digestion and a poor memory.' Happiness is elusive; sometimes the more you pursue it, the faster it eludes you, and you can easily lose the pleasure of the moment by chasing some far-off rainbow. But, yes, I have some people to love and more than enough to do.
I do wonder what you do to achieve 3). Acquisition of more music is clearly not enough or you'd be satisfied with "Nuggets" on CD.
I don't think I need to be aiming for something to be happy, but that 'Nuggets' CD is a shockingly poor transfer. Luckily it was only a fiver in Fopp.
I think we're talking semantics here. I have a great sound, I'm not striving to improve it but I do like try a few things for interests sake. It's a bit like collecting books or music, most of us have more than we can possibly read or play but new introductions to our collections help stimulate interest.
I love music and I'm also interested in the technology for reproducing it so I don't stand still with my system but I'm not make massive changes either.
Fair enough. I used to be a 'tinkerer' myself, but my main system (to my ears at least) has reached the point where major investment would be needed to make much of an improvement. The upstairs system does need some TLC, but it's a bit too hot up there in the current weather to be moving stuff around.
Steve Toy
03-07-2010, 11:10
Joe, without actually knowing anything about either of your systems I'd wager that there are improvements to be had that would cost little or no money but your aim lies more with " irking the purists" than with maximising you systems for minimal outlay.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this but if I am right, your user title should be "audio nihilist."
Fair enough. I used to be a 'tinkerer' myself, but my main system (to my ears at least) has reached the point where major investment would be needed to make much of an improvement. The upstairs system does need some TLC, but it's a bit too hot up there in the current weather to be moving stuff around.
Most of what I do is DIY, it costs pennies or nothing (as I have a lot of the parts anyway).
Joe without actually knowing anything about either of your systems I'd wager that there are improvements to be had that would cost little or no money but your aim lies more with irking the purists than with maximising you systems for minimal outlay.
It's actually more that I'm a lazy sod, dressing up my indolence as Zen-like acceptance.
The upstairs system definitely needs sorting; in particular the Harbeths are just plonked down, and though they're less sensitive than most speakers to placement, they deserve better than that. Then the CDP is making some weird noises, as I mentioned, which need investigating, and the turntable could do with a good clean and a check of the cartridge alignment as I can't actually remember the last time that was done.
Steve Toy
03-07-2010, 11:32
Well that's just a start. Get such chores out of the way and things can begin to get interesting.
Another idea would be to consolidate your two systems and have one better one.
Well that's just a start. Get such chores out of the way and things can begin to get interesting.
Another idea would be to consolidate your two systems and have one better one.
The two systems were one originally; I split them because the Exposure amps weren't working with the speakers I had. Actually, the problem was with the speakers, but by the time I'd sussed that out I'd bought a valve amp.
I know it has nothing to do, but I like Exposure amps.
Steve Toy
03-07-2010, 16:24
They're good amps, a bit like Densen.
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