401 idler wheel oil

[da2222]

Just wondering what oil most people use for their idler wheel. At present I only have oil for hair clippers to hand but I imagine it's much too light to use in this case... Any opinions?

[Made in 1968]

Not Crucial. Same as the TT bearing i suppose will do.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not Crucial. Same as the TT bearing i suppose will do.

Not so Andre. Grease is better than oil for the idler wheel. The oil will run off into the nooks and crannies of the idler wheel housing. I use grease supplied by Martin Bastin for the idler wheel in my 301 and 401.

[da2222]

Grease yes, that makes sense. Any types in particular?

[Made in 1968]

I didnt mean drench it. I just put a tiny amount on mine and it was fine. If you wanna use Grease fine but would have to be thin grease.Never any traces of ever having grease on the one i had tho.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I didnt mean drench it. I just put a tiny amount on mine and it was fine. If you wanna use Grease fine but would have to be thin grease.Never any traces of ever having grease on the one i had tho.

Yep I agree small amounts are ok and that's what I used to do until speaking with Martin Bastin. I used to use 3in1 oil and them got reprimanded :eek:!

[da2222]

Yep I agree small amounts are ok and that's what I used to do until speaking with Martin Bastin. I used to use 3in1 oil and them got reprimanded :eek:!

Damn just ordered some of that very oil too... Any idea of the grease type/ manufacturer?

[Made in 1968]

Dunno what the specialists recommend :lol:

Id personally do some of that lithium based Grease.

[NRG]

I’d use a liquid grease or a heavy none EP SAE 90 oil. Something that clings and stays put with a surface tension. ‘Solid’ grease will move from where it’s placed unless the area is enclosed and the void packed with it.

[Made in 1968]

Aye Lithium stays put

[da2222]

Thanks guys, how about this white 3 in 1 lithium grease?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Professional-White-Lithium-Grease/dp/B0032NIWHK/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=liquid+grease&qid=1583953449&sr=8-5

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think lithium isn't good either, sorry. I just remember from being warned away from using it.

[Made in 1968]

This is getting so funny. ffks a dab of oil is fine believe me.

[Wakefield Turntables]

This is getting so funny. ffks a dab of oil is fine believe me.

Interesting to see how far things can be pushed. :lol: Thread baiting could be a new sport??!!??

[mbic]

This is the one Martin Bastin recommended when he serviced my 401 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/greases/0556446/?sra=pstk

[Made in 1968]

If you wanna go down that Route fine, wont make a blind bit of difference.

[Barry]

What do Garrard themselves recommend? Isn't it in the handbook?

[Made in 1968]

It aint grease thats for sure. Its a tiny bit of oil, Course as always i dont know what im talking about. Amazes me how people think they know better the the manufacturer.

If anyone has the Handbook it will be in there.

[Barry]

It aint grease thats for sure. Its a tiny bit of oil, Course as always i dont know what im talking about. Amazes me how people think they know better the the manufacturer.

If anyone has the Handbook it will be in there.

It is oil (see page 7 of the handbook): the same as is used for the motor bearing and the main bearing of the platter. The oil is supplied with the deck, unfortunately Garrard don't say what it is.

I would have though a light oil, such as Singer sewing machine oil would be suitable.

[Made in 1968]

i said oil from the offset, but o no i got pulled up for that. I personally used the same oil as i did in TT bearing. I think the Garrard '401' oil was the same for all parts that needed oil.

[Clive]

I use 3in1 or Singer Sewing Machine oil, whatever's to hand. I've given up being OCD about this stuff. Makes me more contented.

[Pharos]

During 50 years plus in engineering I have done a lot of research into lubrication.

The first rule is that oil is generally used for high velocity differentials, ie., fast spinning objects, and grease for slower moving differentials, with the latter they are usually carrying a greater pressure load which makes grease more suitable.

This is partly to reduce viscous losses; think of the work required to stir a pot of honey, a lot of energy required.

Lithium is the universal and ubiquitous cheap grease.

I always use Molyslip, which is Bentone based, (a clay), and which contains both molybdenum disulphide and carbon particles. The former a 'V' shaped molecule, plates the surfaces, the sulphur bonding to the metal, which produces two rubbing surfaces of molybdenum protecting the substrate metal. The latter fills in the negative asperities, (holes).

I have experienced situations in which only these lubricants allows functioning, others failing, indeed they were used to get to the moon, and according to Baron Rolf Beck, who proposed to me that I did a research test on Molyslip in the 80s, (he invented it),and we could not mine for oil without.

There are so many situations in which I have used this with very great success when other lubricants have failed, that I unreservedly recommend it.

For the main turntable bearing the grease is appropriate, (maybe slightly diluted with the gearbox additive, discretion required), and when oil is needed, I use the gearbox additive, (neat), for the faster speed/lower viscosity needs, as in the motor.

In the 80s with a friend, we added the gearbox additive to his Philips R2R machine's capstan, and we heard the noise go down as it sank into the bearing.

When I had my new BMW K100S in the 80s, I used it in all the compartments, and on its 600 mile service they could not understand why the cam shims had not worn, this being another example.

All of my newly constructed bicycle, using top quality Campag parts uses it, and it is the quietist bike I have ever had.

It is also very good for infrequent lubrication needs.

A.K of the Funk Firm uses it on his turntables.

[Wakefield Turntables]

All good advice. But I suppose it's all irrelevant if the deck spins silently, to speed and gives owner satisfaction. I can feel an attack of apathy coming on............

[Wakefield Turntables]

During 50 years plus in engineering I have done a lot of research into lubrication.

The first rule is that oil is generally used for high velocity differentials, ie., fast spinning objects, and grease for slower moving differentials, with the latter they are usually carrying a greater pressure load which makes grease more suitable.

This is partly to reduce viscous losses; think of the work required to stir a pot of honey, a lot of energy required.

Lithium is the universal and ubiquitous cheap grease.

I always use Molyslip, which is Bentone based, (a clay), and which contains both molybdenum disulphide and carbon particles. The former a 'V' shaped molecule, plates the surfaces, the sulphur bonding to the metal, which produces two rubbing surfaces of molybdenum protecting the substrate metal. The latter fills in the negative asperities, (holes).

I have experienced situations in which only these lubricants allows functioning, others failing, indeed they were used to get to the moon, and according to Baron Rolf Beck, who proposed to me that I did a research test on Molyslip in the 80s, (he invented it),and we could not mine for oil without.

There are so many situations in which I have used this with very great success when other lubricants have failed, that I unreservedly recommend it.

For the main turntable bearing the grease is appropriate, (maybe slightly diluted with the gearbox additive, discretion required), and when oil is needed, I use the gearbox additive, (neat), for the faster speed/lower viscosity needs, as in the motor.

In the 80s with a friend, we added the gearbox additive to his Philips R2R machine's capstan, and we heard the noise go down as it sank into the bearing.

When I had my new BMW K100S in the 80s, I used it in all the compartments, and on its 600 mile service they could not understand why the cam shims had not worn, this being another example.

All of my newly constructed bicycle, using top quality Campag parts uses it, and it is the quietist bike I have ever had.

It is also very good for infrequent lubrication needs.

A.K of the Funk Firm uses it on his turntables.

Great post! :thumbsup:

[Made in 1968]

I always service old gear how the original manufacturer advised. They are the ones who designed & built the things, They should know & they are the only ones i take guidance from, a lot of these units have never ever seen a service till this day & work perfectly fine, that alone is proof in the pudding that the original way is the way.

[Pharos]

That suggests '68, that no-one ever knows better than they.

You could even argue on that basis that a given designer's speaker cannot be improved, or a better one designed.

[Made in 1968]

Via modifications i suppose but it is no long an genuine article hence is out of the realms of the original designers hands. I am one of those that buys a vintage item for what it is & not a potential mod. The question then begs why are people buying something like this to mod, if its clearly no good.

[Barry]

With the advent of stereo LPs, the BBC found the stereo pickups were showing up the rumble of the grease-bearing Garrard 301s in use and asked Garrard if they could do something about it. They did - the result was the oil-bearing 301.

[Made in 1968]

Upgraded by the designer, Not someone else. That is fine in my books.

[Pharos]

Maybe because they can see a great deal of worth in a design, and its potential if a few limiting factors are removed or improved on.

[Made in 1968]

Totally fine if you want to do that but the amount of money people spend doing such things begs the question why & its must be so flawed to them they need to spend so much when they can go buy something cheaper & technically better. One simple reason i buy certain vintage is my obsession of the era & also how they look.

I have a tiny rumble i can hear when i have headphones on but i have no intentions in eradicating it.. I accept its is part of the original design, i just service as per service data & leave it.

[Pharos]

In my life I have experienced fairly extreme poverty, and with my training have been able to salvage equipment which needs attention, and with a little work and cost, produce a very good value result.

I understand and appreciate the love of an earlier era's equipment, and the extent to which this can apply also to our feeling for the past in general, but we cannot resist change which often gives improvement.

[Patrick Dixon]

Upgraded by the designer, Not someone else. That is fine in my books.

Might be other people within the same org rather than the original designer. Then again if the original designer left and started another firm and upgraded it would that be OK?

I think you are in danger of tying yourself up in semantic knots, but it's completely up to do what you do and don't accept. For myself, everything can be improved and I'm fine with upgrades if they are an improvement. Where something is 'of its time' and will never be state of the art then that's a different matter. I'm not into putting lipstick on pigs.

[DiveDeepDog]

The original designer hasn't got to deal with 50 years of use? I've had a few Garrard's through my hands, its obvious when they're low milage. Things like the idler wheel fit is directly proportional to use, as such I've a small bottle of SAE50 which seems to work well.

Sewing machine oil is far too light and really only good for cleaning IMO.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The original designer hasn't got to deal with 50 years of use? I've had a few Garrard's through my hands, its obvious when they're low milage. Things like the idler wheel fit is directly proportional to use, as such I've a small bottle of SAE50 which seems to work well.

Sewing machine oil is far too light and really only good for cleaning IMO.

Good point Mark. It's always advisable to check for idler wheel "give" by assessing the slackness of the idler wheel's spindle by doing the 12 to 6 and 3 to 9 test.

[A.Grail]

Grease is often used to 'pack out' a worn bushing - The idler bushes of the 301 and 401 are sintered bronze (I.e Self lubricating) The oil used in the sintering process is SAE 30 oil most often. I'm not saying grease is a bad thing but that is not what sintered bushes are designed for.