CD Vs LP (Yes, I know!)

[majex45]

Many years ago a friend convinced me that CDs were the way to go and vinyl was dead. So I sold my whole collection of vinyl and my turntable with SME and Shure cartridge (for practically nothing) and converted wholesale to CD.
Roll on to the Audiojumble at Tunbridge a couple of weeks ago where I bought a JVC AL-FQ555 turntable for very little money. I have a Cyrus One that has a phono input and a pair of KEF speakers so - away we go. CD is a Marantz CD63 Mk II (not SE or KI).
At a market I found a copy of Yes, Tales of Topographic Oceans.
So... I cue up the vinyl and the CD together and let rip.
Playing them both and switching from source to source I much prefer the vinyl (yes, I know... well duh!).
However this made me question the CD player so I swapped for another CD (but I don't have an LP to compare) this sounded so much better.
The CD of TOTO sounded cramped, flat and depressed compared to the vinyl with virtually no cymbals or mid to upper treble.
What I am asking is, is the CD version duff or can I expect this from all CD vs LP comparisons?
LP - TOTO Atlantic K8001 c1973
CD - TOTO Atlantic 7567-81325-2 c1973
Any ideas?
My other half is already despairing of me starting to collect vinyl again, we'd need to move house.

[Slawts]

You have a problem.
I had the CD63 KI Signature and never really got on with the sound. I tried a few from Ayre, Meridian and Naim and ended up with a Naim CD5X.
It is not as good as my vinyl but the turntable/arm/cartridge is much much more expensive.
However I do now enjoy CD and have had no urge to change since purchase in 2007. FWIW I tried the CDX2 at twice the price but preferred the CD5X. I'm also using high res audio which I think sounds very good.
Most of my music is on vinyl as I never bought in to the CD perfect revolution and benefited when friends thanked me for taking their records away for free, so it is still my primary source. I wouldn't start from scratch though.

[Alex_UK]

I don't know the album or have a copy, but my suspicion would be that it was originally mastered for vinyl, and the CD copy is a direct transfer of that master. When I first started buying CDs I found a lot of disappointment with old albums that had just been "plonked" onto CD. The CD 63 I have (albeit KI) certainly doesn't sound flat or compressed on a good recording - personally I think you need to try some more comparisons before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[topoxforddoc]

The sound depends on the quality of the recording and how it has been mastered for that particular medium - vinyl v CD

TOTO IV was mastered on analogue tape, as opposed to digital (I've been offered a 15 IPS production master for this album). Mastering for vinyl involves RIAA EQ and some compression to allow the music to fit into the grooves on the lacquer, as it is cut. Sometimes this bit is done well, and sometimes more so-so.

CD mastering doesn't need RIAA EQ. But sometimes, the engineers will increase the audio level (to make it sound louder) and then compress it to stop the peaks clipping (which sounds harsh in a digital master). When you get the combination of loudness and compression, you lose the dynamic range between the quiet and loud bits. You can tell by watching the waveform on a DAW, such as Audacity (free) or Protools (free or paid for). Well mastered music shows big differences between the quiet and loud bits, just like real music.

Here's the waveform from my 24/192 digital archive (Sony APR 5002 R2R to Prism Sound Lyra 2) of a CBS 15 IPS production master of Michael Jackson's Off The Wall (Girlfriend) - fabulous production by Quincy Jones with big differences in the peaks and quiet bits

https://i.vgy.me/BfOdsp.png

[JohnJo]

The sound depends on the quality of the recording and how it has been mastered for that particular medium - vinyl v CD

TOTO IV was mastered on analogue tape, as opposed to digital (I've been offered a 15 IPS production master for this album). Mastering for vinyl involves RIAA EQ and some compression to allow the music to fit into the grooves on the lacquer, as it is cut. Sometimes this bit is done well, and sometimes more so-so.

CD mastering doesn't need RIAA EQ. But sometimes, the engineers will increase the audio level (to make it sound louder) and then compress it to stop the peaks clipping (which sounds harsh in a digital master). When you get the combination of loudness and compression, you lose the dynamic range between the quiet and loud bits. You can tell by watching the waveform on a DAW, such as Audacity (free) or Protools (free or paid for). Well mastered music shows big differences between the quiet and loud bits, just like real music.

Here's the waveform from my 24/192 digital archive (Sony APR 5002 R2R to Prism Sound Lyra 2) of a CBS 15 IPS production master of Michael Jackson's Off The Wall (Girlfriend) - fabulous production by Quincy Jones with big differences in the peaks and quiet bits

https://i.vgy.me/BfOdsp.png

What would be the dynamic range of a piece like this Charlie and how would that compare to a compressed track?
I’ve always listened to guitar based music (rock, blues, jazz, c/w) but more recently been to a few classical concerts and the sudden jump in volume at times has been a shock at these performances.

[JohnJo]

Getting back to the original post I had a similar experience with vinyl vs CD.

I’d been using CD forever and on a whim bought a Rega RP1 Performance 2nd hand and a live Albert Collins LP for a nostalgia trip, easily done as my Arcam amp at the time had a phono stage built in.

My CD player was an Arcam CD73 which was a good mid-range performer and tbh I was expecting the Rega to sound awful as it felt very cheaply made.

My mouth genuinely fell open at the living, vibrant pulsating sound that issued forth, it was a shocker!

I felt betrayed and lied to about CD.

My journey then took me to an RP6 Exact which was so quiet in the groove but I really hated the break in music every time a side ended so I tried a few CD players and the Naim CDS was the one for me. It’s a phenomenal piece of hardware and equal to almost everything I’ve heard. That £16K LP12 I heard a couple of years ago was :eek: though. Think it was called a Klimax?

The few CDs I had on vinyl as well showed vinyl to be the superior software, probably as Charlie says, due to poor quality transfer.

[Bencat]

Ah well not original but I will add my own view in anyway . I was a very early convert to CD and my first player was a Marantz CD63 Signature . Very happy with that and just stopped buying Vinyl . Later converted to a tranport DAC set up with Teac Transport the Gold one that was half the width of a normal CD player. Much later I changed to a Theta Data Basic which I still own and very occasionally use , though my wife uses it all the time .

Now I still own around 3900 CD,s but these have all been ripped and stored on a USB Hard Drive and are played using a Logitech Media Server on a Raspberry Pi 4 and then various players for the different systems I have . All of this is CD quality from CD rips and the sound is right now is the best I have heard. I still have a Turntable - Logic DM 101 Rega RB300 and Rega Elite Cartridge which does not see any use at all . Not the best vinyl front end i admit but still quite a reasonable set up .

Last year on a whim I went to Dublin HiFi Show and attended the Linn demonstration . It was interesting . At the end of the demonstatration they moved on to the the current LP12 with best arm and their top Moving Coil Cartridge now according to the person giving the demo this was currently the most expensive and best that Linn could produce . he played the album Harry Belafonte Live at Carnegie Hall . I do love this album and own the CD. On went the the LP and I was again reminded of all the reasons I stopped buying vinyl . Cracks and pops on the lead in track back ground hiss and that feeling the music was woozy . Everyone else at the demo were all saying how much more natural and lifelike this sounded compared to the digital tracks played perviously . I just thanked the demonstrator for confirming to me why I stopped using vinyl . Then he played a few of the audiences LP,s Feet Dont Fail Me Now by Little Feet again somehting I own and love. Sadly for me at least the same conclusion the LP sound showed all the problems I hated . The rest of the audience seemed a bit upset that I felt this way and even went so far as to say was deaf and stupid . I do not doubt they believed and loved what they heard many do but for whatever reasons it is not what I hear and for digital music is what I want .

[Haselsh1]

I went through exactly the same experience a year or two back resulting in me selling off 90% of my vinyl collection last year. I also sold off my Nottingham Analogue deck, Origin Live tonearm and Denon cartridge. In spite of this I still think that CD is a bit like a sledgehammer in comparison to vinyl. Yes vinyl has issues with bass and a couple of other areas of reproduction but CD is a bloody long way from being perfect sound forever. I have learned that each has its merits and that there is room for both in my life sadly too late. I guess it comes down to burning bridges. It also comes down to the cost of a good deck/arm/cart compared to a good CD player. Convenience also plays a good part.

[Haselsh1]

Andrew, I had a Logic DM101 back in 1983 fitted with an Alphason HR100S MCS arm and a Kiseki Blue cart.

Absolutely stunning sound.

[Made in 1968]

Andrew, I had a Logic DM101 back in 1983 fitted with an Alphason HR100S MCS arm and a Kiseki Blue cart.

Absolutely stunning sound.

Will be cos it was the best Brit deck at the time, especially the latter ones. I loved mine.

[Audio Al]

My opinion is that CD stands for compromised disc ,

All hi frequency cut and low as well ,

Then whats left gets compressed

Then you hear whats left :(

Vinyl well what can I say other than I love it :D

[topoxforddoc]

What would be the dynamic range of a piece like this Charlie and how would that compare to a compressed track?
I’ve always listened to guitar based music (rock, blues, jazz, c/w) but more recently been to a few classical concerts and the sudden jump in volume at times has been a shock at these performances.

JohnJo,

The loudness-war website has a huge database about sound quality, dynamic range and compression - this shows the dynamic range for the average, worst and best tracks on the album.

Here are the data for the MJ album I posted

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=michael+jackson&album=off+the+wall
https://i.vgy.me/39Beye.png

Here are the data for Toto
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=toto&album=toto
https://i.vgy.me/CdShDI.png

[Macca]

All listed CD versions of TOTO IV have a good dynamic range so 'loudness wars' compression is not the issue here http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=toto&album=IV

The CD player is far from the best, likewise the amplifier. Good amplification is essential to get the best from digital.

I have about 50 or so albums on both vinyl and CD. Only in a handful of cases does the vinyl sound 'better. But is true some CD transfers of older recordings are quite poor.

Try a CD of a quality modern digital production, if it still sounds poor then look at the amp and player.

[JohnJo]

JohnJo,

The loudness-war website has a huge database about sound quality, dynamic range and compression - this shows the dynamic range for the average, worst and best tracks on the album.

Here are the data for the MJ album I posted

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=michael+jackson&album=off+the+wall
https://i.vgy.me/39Beye.png

Here are the data for Toto
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=toto&album=toto
https://i.vgy.me/CdShDI.png

Thanks Charlie, very interesting site.

I’ll get a look later.

[RMutt]

wasn't the TOTO mentioned in the original post referring to Yes' Tales Of Topographic Oceans?

[Macca]

wasn't the TOTO mentioned in the original post referring to Yes' Tales Of Topographic Oceans?

Good point, But it's 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'. There are some poor DR releases of that, the SACD, the HDCD and the Japanese version. Funny how the 'audiophile' formats have the worst quality. Not the one the op has though. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=YES&album=TALES+FROM+TOPOGRAPHIC+OCEANS

[RMutt]

Good point, But it's 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'. There are some poor DR releases of that, the SACD, the HDCD and the Japanese version. Funny how the 'audiophile' formats have the worst quality. Not the one the op has though. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=YES&album=TALES+FROM+TOPOGRAPHIC+OCEANS

Ahh, I stand corrected. Yes not massively on my radar.

[Alex_UK]

There's a "Master" of the (correct Yes album) on Tidal, as well as a 2003 remaster - do you have access to Tidal, Peter? Might be another interesting comparison. (Not really my sort of music, but the Master version sounds very good through my current relatively modest setup.)

[Spectral Morn]

The Ocean View Digital Yes remasters are awful, no dynamics, compressed and distortion, complete and utter crap.

[Haselsh1]

Hmm, very difficult to get a superb version of a classic album these days. I bought a re-issue of Pink Floyd's The Wall a year or so back and it is dire. Flat, muffled and completely strangled. The last CD I bought though was Shpongle's Codex VI and it is sublime. Modern, digital and sublime without any of vinyl's seriously compromised low frequencies. Bloody lovely album; music and production.

[majex45]

Thanks for all the help and comment. I think it is the quality of this cut of the CD that is the problem, I'll try to find another.
I have two CD versions of my favourite album, Islands by King Crimson. One is the first edition that came out and the second is the "Definite" edition which came out a few years later.
The two versions of the CD are like chalk & cheese. The original is noisy, muffled and yucky (technical term). On one track the drums sound like they have gravel on the skins.
The later version is much more open and listenable.

[jahsavage]

I suggest you get an MQA compatible DAC like the Brooklyn pick a free subscription to Tidal and try the 192Khz 24 bit MQA version of Tales. I'm a vinyl diehard and find most cd recording souless but to my ears the MQA recordings are satisfying.

[Firebottle]

It's unfortunately the case that to get the best out of vinyl playback is more expensive than a digital set-up.

However I think both can be equally enjoyable provided the heinous 'loudness wars' are avoided on CD and you employ a vinyl phono stage that has adequate overload capability and low noise and transparency.

[Made in 1968]

It's unfortunately the case that to get the best out of vinyl playback is more expensive than a digital set-up.



The way people fu*k about making Digital a million times more complicated than it needs to be, thats not the case Alan.