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Ammonite Acoustics
25-06-2010, 18:57
My new Paul Hynes SR5 PSU has arrived, for service with my Kenwood KD-770D. It's a much bigger, heftier and more powerful beast than the SR3 that I have had for some times, and which Marco is presently using to great effect on his Technics. Work commitments mean that it will be next week before I can do much with it, but I shall let everyone know how I get on. The SR5 is rated at 4A continuous current, with enormous transient current capacity (which Paul would have to confirm). I do think that the Kenwood will like it! Here it is with the SR3 for comparison:

http://i46.tinypic.com/bhjcia.jpg

Marco
25-06-2010, 19:29
Nice one Hugo! When you get a chance, I (and AOS) would like to hear all about how it compares with the SR3 (and the Timestep you had before it) :)

Paul's in the process of building me an SR5 for evaluation (it's nice isn't it when manufacturers are confident enough to do that with their products? ;)), which I'll be using at Flatpopely's T/T bake-off at the end of July, and which it's likely I'll end up buying for my Techie.

Quite frankly, in my system, the SR3 makes the stock Timestep PSU sound broken, so goodness knows what the SR5 will do!! :eek:

Marco.

Ammonite Acoustics
26-06-2010, 13:39
Nice one Hugo! When you get a chance, I (and AOS) would like to hear all about how it compares with the SR3 (and the Timestep you had before it) :)

Marco.

It's too long since I had the Timestep to make any comparisons; also although the Timestep did work with the Kenwood (it provided 21v against the ideal 23.4v) I never did a back-to-back evaluation against the SR3. On the Technics, though, my preference was clearly for the SR3, as you know.

MartinT
28-07-2010, 21:16
See my comment on the SR5 here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7203&page=2

MartinT
29-07-2010, 13:57
Huh?

chris@panteg
30-07-2010, 08:43
you need to take care here . about 8 to 10 people were not so lucky with there investments including a friend of mine

Could you clarify what you mean please ? are you referring to the MN platter , or P. hynes psu ?

Ammonite Acoustics
30-07-2010, 12:17
i was saying that some people lost money in dealings with the above mentioned engineer , i dont want to go into details

So why mention anything at all?

Marco
30-07-2010, 12:22
Hi Francis (I believe?),


i was saying that some people lost money in dealings with the above mentioned engineer , i dont want to go into details


I'm afraid that you cannot make such comments without providing evidence that confirms your claims, as well as exact details of what you're referring to.

Therefore I must ask that you do so, or I will have to remove your (potentially libellous) remarks.

Marco.

Giant Haystacks
30-07-2010, 17:11
ok remove remarks i am not going into details ,i was asked to clarify what i ment and i did and i was better saying nothing please remove remarks ,i will make no more comment on it sorry for offending

Marco
30-07-2010, 18:03
Done. I'm afraid it's pointless making remarks like that unless you're willing to substantiate them.

Marco.

Paul Hynes
30-07-2010, 21:44
Hi folks,

Following comments made by Giant Haystacks I feel it would be a good thing to explain why he made these comments as I think he was only acting in good faith.

I used to run a limited company called Paul Hynes Design Ltd. The company manufactured a range of specialist valve amplification products and some voltage regulator modules. During spring 2002 the company experienced cash flow problems and I felt there was a need for additional capital investment to help the cash flow and allow additional staff to help with the business. I proceeded to look for the required funding. The company bank would not extend further credit and after failing to achieve this through normal business funding via other banks I looked for equity investors. An old friend said he would be able to assist with substantial funding. I duly prepared a revised business plan then called a directors meeting (there were 4 including myself) together with my financier friend. The meeting went well and an in principal offer of funding was agreed. Unfortunately a week later this offer was withdrawn, as my friend required the funds for another project urgently. It had taken three months of hard work looking for the funding and during this time the cash flow position was worsening until it had reached the point that the company had no cash reserve left and could not pay ongoing financial commitments. Technically the company had become insolvent. I had to call an emergency director’s meeting to either resolve the situation, or cease trading. This was required because it is against the law for a company to continue trading when insolvent, and there are serious penalties for company executives who break this law. As it happened none of the directors were in a position to cover the outstanding liabilities of the company so there was no alternative but to cease trading and the company was eventually “struck off” the Companies House register in 2003. This was not a happy time for all concerned. All the directors lost their original capital investment and creditors had to write off any money owed as there were no useful assets in the company. I was also suddenly out of a job with no money, equipment or assets and was unable to complete some private custom projects I had taken on during the previous year.

Shortly after this time my mother, who was permanently disabled reached the point where she could no longer look after herself on her own and rather than see her condemned to a National Health Service care home she came to live with my family and I became her full time carer until she died in 2007. We (my family) were planning on moving to the Hebrides to finish renovating my mother’s house with disabled facilities for her and even though she didn’t make it, we decided to continue with the relocation anyway as all the plans were in place.

I, and several associates, run consultancy services to the trade, but as this income is sporadic I introduced and promote a number of power supply related products to the audio market, as audio power supply design is my speciality. This now forms a reasonable portion of business activity. The business is run very lean with regard to overheads to ensure it never suffers the fate of the original Limited Company. The business does not have any debts and especially NO bank funding. I will never ever trust banks again. Everything is paid for up front. I have no intention of facing a liquidity problem ever again.

Businesses fail all the time, often just through circumstances beyond anyone’s control, especially in the current financial climate. Hell, even some of the big boys have gone down over the last few years.

So Giant Haystacks I can understand your concern and your wish to issue a warning because of what happened back in 2002. I can assure you I have no intention of going through that again. Several of you good people on the forum have jumped to my defence and for this I thank you. I felt it would be remiss of me not to explain the circumstances surrounding these historical events Giant Haystacks refers to. I am not proud of what happened but I did do everything I could to refinance and reorganise the Company. As it happened time was not on my side and it nearly took me down with it. You can judge me accordingly.

Regards
Paul

Spectral Morn
30-07-2010, 21:55
Thank you Paul for your honesty and telling us about a period in your life that must have been very difficult.


Regards D S D L

anthonyTD
30-07-2010, 22:08
hi paul,
i think you have been very forth coming and open with your explanation, its never good when customers lose money when a company goes under, but unfortunetly it happens and with the way things are currently going we may witness a few more going down before long!:(
A...

purite audio
30-07-2010, 22:08
Paul is an absolutely top bloke.
Super products superb service.

MartinT
30-07-2010, 22:12
Thank you Paul. I'm very glad that's cleared up.

DSJR
31-07-2010, 10:26
Very decent and honest. Thanks for sharing.

I think this is the way audio is going to go, with small but financially secure firms selling primarily online and by word of mouth. Hopefully there won't be room for big egos here - I had enough of that in the eighties, and I was as much to blame back then...

leo
31-07-2010, 13:22
Been away for a week and just reading missed threads/posts.
I have to agree with the last few replies, a very honest and decent post!
Pauls one of the good guys and been nothing but helpful to me and to the diy community. we have some excellent trade members on here that contribute a lot to the forum and its members :respect:

Strosek
03-08-2010, 03:44
Paul, may I ask why you feel that a 4 or 5 amp power supply is best suited when the Technics draw well under 1 amp? Also are you using shunt regulation in your PS? Just curious:)

Thanks!

Ammonite Acoustics
03-08-2010, 07:51
Paul, may I ask why you feel that a 4 or 5 amp power supply is best suited when the Technics draw well under 1 amp? ........

I don't think Paul has stated such a thing, but I have in relation to my Kenwood DD turntable (see http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=141434&postcount=18 ). Whatever the current requirement of the deck (and the technics, for that matter), overspeccing the power supply with the SR5 does make a remarkable difference to musicality over the smaller SR3, itself a very good device. Not a difference to pitch stability, startup time etc - it's about how the thing plays music: the "feel" of the music. There must be a technical explanation for this and maybe Paul will chip in with some thoughts.

Paul Hynes
03-08-2010, 11:23
Thanks for the support guys.

Hi Strosek,

A simple analogy may help here. Compare an average family saloon car with a Bugatti Veyron. The Veyron has a larger engine. Both will go from 0 to 70 MPH but the Veyron will get you there quickly and effortlessly. If you never drive a Veyron you will not miss it but if you do ever get the chance, going back to a family saloon would be disappointing.

The SR5 uses a larger transformer and a larger heavier duty output stage than the SR3. When supplying the Techie the SR5 has an easier time than the SR3, as it is barely idling, and it can source whatever transient current the Techie motor requires regardless of the platter load. As Shuggie has found this translates into a better musical presentation.

The discrete component regulator circuit topology used in the SR3 and the SR5 is a proprietary series regulator design optimised for wide bandwidth, low noise, low output impedance, fast transient response, fast settling time and wide band supply line interference rejection. A shunt regulated supply for the Techie would require much heavier thermal engineering as the regulator current would have to be set high enough to provide any transient current requirements of the load. This means very large heatsinks, larger case, larger transformer, and consequently much higher cost both for initial purchase and for running costs.

I hope this helps.

Regards
Paul

Citation16
03-08-2010, 11:37
Hello Paul,

Thanks for the explanation on your former company. As an ex corporate banker, financing businesses, I can tell you honestly that banks are quite dangerous to small businesses; they will take all the garantees they can get and offer very little help.

In any case, cash flow is king: if you have to pay suppliers before you collect on the sales, its game over (or requires much financing). If the profit is stuck in excess or dead inventory (or bad receivables) its also game over. If the business grows too fast, the profitability cannot absorb or cover the extra investments in parts and overhead...

-----------

Back to your SR5, Paul, I looked at your web site and cannot find info on the SR5 and the price - what is the price and the lead time ?..., as your power supply appears to be quite superlative.

Techno Commander
03-08-2010, 11:46
Very decent and honest. Thanks for sharing.

I think this is the way audio is going to go, with small but financially secure firms selling primarily online and by word of mouth. Hopefully there won't be room for big egos here - I had enough of that in the eighties, and I was as much to blame back then...

Indeed. I would rather send my money to a clever guy that builds excellent products in his shed (wherever that may be), than line the pockets of the director of a large multinational company.

I think the returns in quality of product and sound will far outweigh those of a mass produced item.

Paul Hynes
03-08-2010, 12:05
Hello Yves,

I am late for a meeting on the next Island so I have to rush off and will get back to you when I return to the office tomorrow.

Regards
Paul

Strosek
03-08-2010, 13:16
Now that's what I call a descriptive analogy that I can get my head around!! Thank you kindly for the detailed response!

Maybe I should get you to explain to my wife why our family sedan needs so much horsepower;)

Thanks!

Paul Hynes
04-08-2010, 15:34
Hi Strosek,

Just take her for a drive in a Veyron. I think she will get the message.

Regards
Paul

dcarol
04-08-2010, 16:08
Indeed. I would rather send my money to a clever guy that builds excellent products in his shed (wherever that may be), than line the pockets of the director of a large multinational company.



Without sounding too negative BUT I would RATHER spend my money on a well built and good looking piece of equipment, that is built to CE and EN standards and passes all electrical regulations and knowing I have a good 2-3 year warranty THAN buy from someone that builds from a shed that is not regulated in any way, buys a standard box from RS, does not finish it well and the box may be lethal to my kids! But then that is just me.

Ammonite Acoustics
04-08-2010, 16:31
Without sounding too negative BUT I would RATHER spend my money on a well built and good looking piece of equipment, that is built to CE and EN standards and passes all electrical regulations and knowing I have a good 2-3 year warranty THAN buy from someone that builds from a shed that is not regulated in any way, buys a standard box from RS, does not finish it well and the box may be lethal to my kids! But then that is just me.

Well, that makes me glad that my PH SR5 PSU, although a bit plain to look at, is built to all prevailing standards and has a lifetime warranty!

leo
04-08-2010, 16:40
Yes, people are not stupid enough to go recommending any old tat on here you know ;)

Paul Hynes
04-08-2010, 17:53
dcarol

For the record, I have a purpose built office/workshop and a machine room. It is one of the reasons why I completely redesigned the internal structure of the house at the start of the house renovation. I like my home comforts too much to entertain working in a shed. This way of working is designed to remove the additional overhead of separate premises thus keeping the operating costs to a minimum allowing lower prices for my products.

My cases may not be the brightest artwork around but my customers are paying for a high level of electrical and musical performance not an artistic statement. I have investigated all sorts of case designs in my role as consultant and without fail artistic statements add a large financial penalty to the final cost. I choose to keep the cost low so more people can afford better sound quality.

Also for the record, I have been around in the audio industry for a loooong time. As a design consultant I am fully aware of all the rules and regulations regarding electrical safety and compliance with the regulations that apply in the EU. Indeed I have attended many industrial seminars regarding compliance with the various regulations involved. All my products are built to CE and RoHS standards and labelled accordingly. I take great care to ensure that I comply with electrical standards when designing any equipment, whether for my products, or for my consultancy clients. I also I have a range of test equipment suitable for ensuring compliance with the electrical standards.

I give a 3 year parts and labour warranty except for Shuggie, as because he is a nice guy, I give him a lifetime warranty. I also give a 56 day return if not satisfied, for any reason, guarantee, allowing a full refund including carriage both ways.

The components I use are of high quality and are all sourced from reputable manufacturers via known distribution routes. This is not always the case with products from larger manufacturers. Indeed I have seen plenty of products from larger manufacturers self-destruct in a potentially dangerous way during my time in the industry. Often the bigger they get, the less personal they get, and the harder it gets to get things put right when they go wrong.

There are “cowboys” in any industry, and the audio industry is no exception, so I can understand your concerns. However, I would ask that you to do a little more homework before making public statements questioning someone’s credentials.

Paul

Citation16
05-08-2010, 01:30
I have bought garanteed stuff. Sadly enough, the garantee has no relation to how good the item is nor does it garantee any sonic qualities -except to often say that its a fantastic value for that price point ! :eyebrows:

Some really well known audio brands I bought over the years, are garanteed but never live up to their claims or reputation or fancy reviews...we simply have to try things & see what we like.

To each their own choices; that what makes life interesting.

I am sure the SR5 works very well, and its not about to fail any time soon - garantee or no garantee.

I would also be curious to have a simple comparison of the SR5 from Paul with the KAB power supply that uses a switching power supply.
PS Audio has a switching audio amplifier and its simply a different animal & I did not care for its sonics.
Some computer power supplies do seem to also use a switching device.

DSJR
05-08-2010, 10:33
Without sounding too negative BUT I would RATHER spend my money on a well built and good looking piece of equipment, that is built to CE and EN standards and passes all electrical regulations and knowing I have a good 2-3 year warranty THAN buy from someone that builds from a shed that is not regulated in any way, buys a standard box from RS, does not finish it well and the box may be lethal to my kids! But then that is just me.

Back in the bad old days, that would be very true, as more people had higher disposable income (such as yourself :respect:)

Today, less people are interested in good audio equipment and it appears that many of those that are, don't have the funds available to indulge some manufacturers' pension funds (many owners are in their mid fifties upwards). DIY is coming back, just as it was in the 50's and early 60's...

I mean no disrespect to those here who can easily afford to justify well made and expensively finished products, but not all of us can, and the likes of Paul Hynes are doing us a good service IMO.

MartinT
05-08-2010, 10:34
Switching power supplies are simply a technology choice, they can sound better or worse than linear supplies, depending on their implementation. I wouldn't get hung up on it since you still need to hear a piece of equipment in your system to be able to make a proper choice.

For information, my Chord power amp uses a highly complex switching power supply. After many years of ownership, I have yet to find a power amp I prefer.

Techno Commander
05-08-2010, 11:45
I should point out that the word "shed" was meant in a figurative sense and not a literal one.

Having said that, a friend of mine has a 600 square foot shed which is used for the manufacture of 4 layer SMT boards. It is quite stunning and very comfortable, especially at the "lounge" end. :)

Reid Malenfant
05-08-2010, 18:28
PS Audio has a switching audio amplifier and its simply a different animal & I did not care for its sonics.
Some computer power supplies do seem to also use a switching device.
I think someone has mentioned previous to me that not all amps sound the same & not all amps with SMPS sound the same ;)

Chord have a very good reputation, though i can't honestly recall ever hearing one, another top rated amp would be the large Halcros'. These use an SMPS along with power factor correction, this enables them to work with any voltage on the planet & still give the same performance.

I think you'l find that virtually every PC uses a SMPS, though in all honesty they really aren't very high quality at all, even if the have the afore mentioned PFC as well. I used to do a lot of work on switching supplies in a couple of jobs i had. Mainly testing & repair but with some design work & i can tell you for a fact that a PC supply thay outputs say 500W total & costs less than £50 is going to be very cheaply made & will rely on a rather large fan to stop it exploding :lol:

A good 200W SMPS with low noise output & good regulation with a couple of voltage rails is likely to cost at least £200 over a production run of at least 200 units. There is far far more to take on board when designing one over any linear PSU to attain good performance.

With the kind of power supplies Paul is designing & building & the power range involved there is really no point in going the SMPS route as i know he'd not be able to get the same performance fullstop. SMPS is about efficient supplies & not ultra high performance quiet supplies (quiet as in low noise) ;)

By the way, off topic a second...

I happen to own a Citation 16 as well, it has the usual faulty connections to the terminals on the PCBs which is causing some hf oscillations. I'll get round to stripping it & rebuilding it some time as it was a true bargain. I'm also jealous that you have a pair of AR9s'. I always used to drool over the things in magazines but never ever heard a pair simply because i was too young :eyebrows: Well done for fixing a pair up, why the hell they used foam surrounds on the bass drivers i'll never know :scratch:

Citation16
06-08-2010, 00:23
Thanks Mark for the info on the switching power supply. Their seems to be no end to tweak a system...

As for the Citation 16 - I have 5 of them - some 16a and 16's. One is actually used for spare parts at this jucture. Another, I am rebuilding...
In any case, if anybody is interested - you can get a fully rebuilt & upgraded Citation 16 from Pat at audionut66@comcast.net. He is just about THE expert on the Citation 16. You can either buy one fully rebuilt, modded & upgraded from him or get the parts with instructions. He also dabs in Musical Fidelity and SAE and other stuff...

The AR9 speakers are still around on Ebay from time to time - for example just now I found a listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-AR9-SPEAKERS-Near-PERFECT-PAIR-AR-9-/400141466632
Then you buy a speaker refoam kit and fix it up, rewire it & change the binding posts and internal extra bracing, etc...
But the price varies and some incredible deals come around for the AR9.

But we have veered off topic of the SR5 power supply, such is the way of a discussion board and often of any conversation...

DSJR
07-08-2010, 17:40
AR9's are just too big-n-beefy for most UK built rooms sadly, but a mate in the US uses them with a Hafler pre-power and loves 'em to bits.

MartinT
21-12-2010, 18:08
I've finally received the SR5-21 and have got it running without any bother - Paul kindly fitted mine with a 5/2.1mm chassis socket so that the Timestep'd Techie plugs straight in.

With such a big brute of a PSU you might be tempted to think that all the benefits will be in the pace and rhythm area but not so. The first thing to strike me is how clean and pure the treble is; I believe I made the same observation when Marco brought his SR5 over. There is a strong sense of effortless and natural musical forces at work with a spacious soundstage and low noise floor. Focus is superb and it is even easier to point to where instruments are playing, an interesting exercise if done with the eyes closed.

Bass extension, rhythm and tonal stability are all quite excellent leaving the accuracy of the centre hole in an LP to define any remaining wow. The PSU appears to 'get out of the way', leaving the natural dynamics of the arm and turntable to do their thing; in my case the combination of AT/DV/Technics makes fabulous music with real-world dynamics and brings alive many albums I had thought of as dull.

A wonderful final piece of my record playing solution. I will leave things well alone now and spend my money on acquiring more great LPs. Lined up for playing are 180g pressings of Rickie Lee Jones, Dire Straits' Love Over Gold and Paul McCartney's Band on the Run.

Highly recommended.

Spectral Morn
21-12-2010, 19:54
Any chance of some photos Martin ? Please......


Regards D S D L

chris@panteg
21-12-2010, 20:11
Congrats ' Martin , sorted then .

How much is the SR5 ?

MCRU
21-12-2010, 20:57
Does Paul do a budget PSU for paupers like me?

MartinT
21-12-2010, 21:42
How much is the SR5 ?

£475 + £50 assembly/test.

MartinT
21-12-2010, 21:53
Any chance of some photos Martin ?

Sure, but not much to see. It's a heavy black box with front mounted switch, rear mounted sockets and under-lip blue LED.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/techie_SR5.jpg

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/SR5.jpg

Strosek
21-12-2010, 21:53
Would you be so kind as to show us a few pictures of the unit on the inside?

In another post Marco had asked Paul if it was OK to post pictures of the unit and Paul was fine with it but to date nobody has done so...

Thanks in advance!

MCRU
21-12-2010, 21:58
Would you be so kind as to show us a few pictures of the unit on the inside?

In another post Marco had asked Paul if it was OK to post pictures of the unit and Paul was fine with it but to date nobody has done so...

Thanks in advance!

Why do you want to see the insides boss, seems waste of time to me?

Those Isonoe feet look damn cool, mine are in the box waiting for something to fit them to!

Spectral Morn
21-12-2010, 22:34
Thank you Martin


Regards D S D L

Paul Hynes
21-12-2010, 22:42
For ColinB and others who have requested SR5 internal photos.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal01.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal02.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal03.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal04.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal05.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal06.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR5internal07.jpg

Regards
Paul

Marco
21-12-2010, 23:10
Nice one, Martin - glad you've got yours now, as I know from experience how much of an improvement the SR5 brings to your system! :)

Paul is a very gifted audio designer and has the rare skill of not only having the technical knowledge to produce innovative designs, in terms of the circuits he makes, but also the ability to 'voice' his circuits to reproduce music faithfully by judiciously selecting components which combine to achieve the best possible audio performance.

At end of the day in hi-fi, the difference between a merely competent design and truly world-class one, is in the final fine-tuning by ear - and this is where Paul's designs leapfrog some of the competition, whose products have been produced simply on the basis of performing well on the test bench. This gives Paul's designs a musical ability lacking in other designs where the accent isn't as much on final fine-tuning by ear.

Therefore, if people really want to hear what their SL-1200 or 1210 is capable of, then fitting an SR5, in my experience, is one of the best ways of achieving this.

Anyway, Martin, well done and enjoy the music! :cool:

Marco.

Welder
21-12-2010, 23:34
Interesting Power supply Paul.
Do you have a spec sheet and price for it?
Is that phosphor bronze?

colinB
22-12-2010, 00:02
Thanks Paul. Thats helpful.

REXTON
22-12-2010, 09:21
after reading threads for an hour and half about the SR5 I'm now kicking myself :brickwall: that I bought a Timestep HSE for my 1210! Looks like I'll be saving up for the SR5 nxt year then :eyebrows::eyebrows:

chris@panteg
22-12-2010, 09:39
Why ' what's wrong with your HE psu ?

Marco
22-12-2010, 09:46
The HE should be pretty good, although of course I haven't done a direct comparison between the two....

Andrew, if you're curious, we could swap PSUs for a week - that way we'll both be able to assess which one we think is best, and if the SR5 isn't as good as the HE (which I doubt), you won't have wasted any money :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
22-12-2010, 10:03
I'm genuinely surprised there's such a difference in these supplies, unless it's the noise behaviour getting back into the cartridge in some way, or possibly the very "fast" quartz servos or summat :scratch:

That PH supply has a hige transformer in it that I reckon would do a mid priced integrated amp good service :)

Marco
22-12-2010, 10:14
Indeed - and that's precisely what's lacking in the HE ;)

Experience tells me that hugely 'over-specced' T/T PSUs, using massive mains transformers (for the job), often sonically outperform other PSUs which don't use such large mains transformers - why, I'm not sure, as I believe technically it *shouldn't* make a difference once one achieves 'the ideal' in an electrical sense.

However, I'm sure that Paul could provide a credible technical argument for why having such a huge mains transformer inside a T/T PSU is sonically beneficial. Lower noise, perhaps? Paul, what's you're take on it? :)

The theory that suggests it shouldn't make any difference was blown out the water, however, around 2004 when I swapped the (then) Linn Lingo on my LP12 for a Norton Airpower, which used a massive mains transformer, similar to the one Paul has in the SR5, and the improvement the Airpower brought over the Lingo (and an Armageddon I tried at the same time) wasn't subtle!! :eek:

I don't believe that there was anything particularly 'fancy', component-wise, inside the Norton - its design principles were mainly based around its huge mains transformer.

It's yet another example where measurements alone (at lease those normally used in these applications) don't always tell the full story.....

Marco.

Ammonite Acoustics
22-12-2010, 10:21
Marco, if you recall, I once walked into a spat with Dave Cawley over aspects of PSU design that I don't fully understand, but which Paul Hynes does! He does explain the principles on his website (http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page2.html). Clearly a big toroid helps, but fundamental design helps even more!

My feeling about the Technics and why it responds so well to PSU magic, is that it probably presents a rather complex load, which translates into the need for a very fast and very wide bandwidth PSU. Clearly some PSU designs are better than others;)

DSJR
22-12-2010, 10:22
Maybe we're not looking finely enough at instant temporal responses to needed current (I can't explain it properly but hope you get the idea).

One thing Naim really did do was to re-introduce the over-supply idea, especially on their preamps. I know this is only a tiny part of the picture, but having a high capacity reservoir in both transformer and storage caps may count more than otherwise thought - I wish I'd been better at advanced maths, as I could have been an electronics engineer and able to work it all out. PLEASE Mr Hynes, help me out here.....:)

Reid Malenfant
22-12-2010, 11:17
This might help explain things or might raise more questions :eyebrows:

All an amplifier is basically boils down to it being a power supply that supplies AC voltage to a load. Now those that have experienced class A amplification tend to want to stick with it, this is because all the current that the load will ever require is already there at the output stage. It never needs to turn on any harder unless it goes into class B with some ridiculous load. This should make the amplifier pretty fast & low distortion...

What you have with the SR5 is basically a class A power supply :) It's shunt rather than series regulated & this means that all the power that the turntable doesn't use is being dissipated by the shunt transistor or mosfet (probably a lateral mosfet from what i have been reading). To increase the load currennt the shunt mosfet actually needs to turn off some rather than on. Again it can react very fast indeed just like a class A amp & it should have a much lower output impedance as a consequence ;)

A series regulator is like a class B amp in that it needs to turn on harder to supply more current & this takes time so it's slower, though more efficient.


The reason the transformer is large is due to the class A type of operation where all the power would need to be dissipated by the PSU itself with no load connected. As well it being sensible to use a big transformer for best performance.

You want a car to go fast & accelerate like the clappers then fit a dirty great big V10 engine. If you are happy to chug along, accelerate slowly & slow down going up a hill (when the going gets tough) then fit a 1L four cylinder jobby :eyebrows:

18:48 E2A:- Just been looking at the pictures of the interior of the SR5 :scratch: I might be mistaken but it looks like a series regulator to me, i can't see a dirty great big aluminium clad wirewound resistor that would be needed as a series component to dissipate power :scratch: Besides that there is no where near enough heatsinking for a shunt regulator :eyebrows:

chris@panteg
22-12-2010, 11:22
Indeed - and that's precisely what's lacking in the HE ;)

Experience tells me that hugely 'over-specced' T/T PSUs, using massive mains transformers (for the job), often sonically outperform other PSUs which don't use such large mains transformers - why, I'm not sure, as I believe technically it *shouldn't* make a difference once one achieves 'the ideal' in an electrical sense.

However, I'm sure that Paul could provide a credible technical argument for why having such a huge mains transformer inside a T/T PSU is sonically beneficial. Lower noise, perhaps? Paul, what's you're take on it? :)

The theory that suggests it shouldn't make any difference was blown out the water, however, around 2004 when I swapped the (then) Linn Lingo on my LP12 for a Norton Airpower, which used a massive mains transformer, similar to the one Paul has in the SR5, and the improvement the Airpower brought over the Lingo (and an Armageddon I tried at the same time) wasn't subtle!! :eek:

I don't believe that there was anything particularly 'fancy', component-wise, inside the Norton - its design principles were mainly based around its huge mains transformer.

It's yet another example where measurements alone (at lease those normally used in these applications) don't always tell the full story.....

Marco.


Hi Marco

Back in the day when i had an LP12 ! i just got the Lingo , but then i noticed all these other psu's available ' i talked to my Linn dealer and this is what he said ' please ' please don't go near any of these dogdy ' possibly illegal aftermarket rubbish psu's they will ruin your LP12 , err yeah ok :scratch:.

I think this kind thing still go's on but is one of the reason's i moved the LP12 on , but not the main reason of course .

REXTON
22-12-2010, 14:28
The HE should be pretty good, although of course I haven't done a direct comparison between the two....

Andrew, if you're curious, we could swap PSUs for a week - that way we'll both be able to assess which one we think is best, and if the SR5 isn't as good as the HE (which I doubt), you won't have wasted any money :cool:

Marco.

Marco,

Now that seems like an offer too good to refuse :stalks::stalks: Let's wait till after Xmas, I need to fine tune the Mike New bearing/stiffning plate/Cu composite platter and SME V before I let the Timestep go. I've only just got the whole thing set up and working so I want to listen to some vinyl before I embark on another batch of upgrades. How does back end of January sound??

MartinT
22-12-2010, 15:42
I need to fine tune the Mike New bearing/stiffning plate/Cu composite platter and SME V before I let the Timestep go.

Andrew, how did you find the base plate installation? I wrote it up elsewhere, not sure if you saw that.

Marco
22-12-2010, 16:22
Hi Andrew,


Now that seems like an offer too good to refuse. Let's wait till after Xmas, I need to fine tune the Mike New bearing/stiffning plate/Cu composite platter and SME V before I let the Timestep go. I've only just got the whole thing set up and working so I want to listen to some vinyl before I embark on another batch of upgrades. How does back end of January sound??

Sounds good to me, matey - that's a plan, then! :)

I've been dying to compare the Timestep HE to the SR5, so now's my chance. Full review on their various merits to follow... :cool:

Btw, I've just taken a few new shots of the Techie - this time off of the rack, after fitting the new Oyaide PA-2075 DR tonearm cable to the Jelco:


http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/9136/img0172e.jpg (http://img576.imageshack.us/i/img0172e.jpg/)



http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5949/img0175s.jpg (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/img0175s.jpg/)



http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5163/img0174o.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/i/img0174o.jpg/)



http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4222/img0177k.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/img0177k.jpg/)

:cool:


Marco.

MCRU
22-12-2010, 16:27
Looking good Marco, looking good.

Marco
22-12-2010, 16:31
Churz, matey... Off for a listen, now! :gig:

Marco.

MCRU
22-12-2010, 16:33
Just looking at Paul's PSU and being interested in the mains supply for obvious reasons, couldn't help wondering what effect this would have on the performance?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BELDEN/AC-1501R-300.jpg

Basically a mains filter/iec inlet. Not suggesting anyone takes Paul's unit apart and fits their own, maybe Paul would like to try one out and offer it as an up-grade if it does the job?

MartinT
22-12-2010, 17:14
In my case, no need as my SR5 is being fed ultra-pure mains from my PS Audio Powerplant Premier regenerator.

MCRU
22-12-2010, 17:30
In my case, no need as my SR5 is being fed ultra-pure mains from my PS Audio Powerplant Premier regenerator.

Is that the one that uses USA power plugs mate?

Ammonite Acoustics
22-12-2010, 18:07
......after fitting the new Oyaide PA-2075 DR tonearm cable to the Jelco

It will be interesting to know what you think about it in comparison with the Neglex cable. I was very surprised at how much better Audio Origami's tonearm cable was over the Neglex, which looks nice but is a bit average sounding. Methinks you are about to remove a musical bottleneck!

Reid Malenfant
22-12-2010, 18:33
In my case, no need as my SR5 is being fed ultra-pure mains from my PS Audio Powerplant Premier regenerator.
I'd definately say that it'd be much cleaner & lower distortion than via a simple mains filter, that's for sure ;) The Premier reduces distortion by a factor of 10 from what i have read which is significant, but i wouldn't call it ultra-pure by any stretch of the imagination :cool:

Still, 0.25% is better than 2.5% & a very worthwhile improvement :eyebrows:

Having said that i wouldn't dismiss a mains filter as most of the distortion on the output of the Premier is likely to be high order & high frequency ;) It is effectively only an amplifier at the end of the day & feedback reduces with increased frequency meaning distortion increases :rolleyes: These kind of filters are not effective at low frequency but increase in effectiveness as frequency increases....

MartinT
22-12-2010, 18:54
Is that the one that uses USA power plugs mate?

No, I have a proper UK spec model with IEC (Euro) input and five UK 13A sockets, one for each isolation zone.

MartinT
22-12-2010, 19:03
The Premier reduces distortion by a factor of 10 from what i have read which is significant, but i wouldn't call it ultra-pure by any stretch of the imagination :cool:

It depends on what you're comparing it with. A filter won't be able to reconstruct the straight-sided sinewave distortion that occurs when thousands of Sun readers put the kettle on before Eastenders, but the PPP can and does. Also, it's not just about purity of sinewave but broad spectrum noise filtering before the amplifier stage, thus preserving low output impedance. And as I think we've discussed before, it's a rather clever tracking amplifier that sits 'on top' of the mains waveform and applies correction, unlike its enormously heat dissipating predecessors. So no heat, little noise and no fans whirring.

I take what you say - distortion is reduced not eliminated - but the proof is in the listening and I've yet to hear a system that is not improved with a PPP.

Paul Hynes
22-12-2010, 19:05
Season’s Greetings to all the AoS members, especially those who have been so supportive over the last few years.

Hi Marko,

I am no transformer specialist and the information I give here is based on discussions with specialists when I have been looking for exceptional performance for my projects. In particular Terry Monaghan from Canterbury Windings has been very helpful in my quest for a very high performance transformer for the SR5. Terry has been in the industry for a long time and specialises in Audio Grade transformers. His products are excellent.

You are right about size matters however there is a lot more to the SR5 power transformer than being oversize for the job.

Firstly, all the ‘off the shelf’ transformer ranges you can find in the component catalogues are built to a price in a very competitive market, primarily for industrial use. They are usually wound with a high flux density for efficiency. If you switch them on when the mains voltage is high they can easily go into core saturation and can take a long time to recover from this. The materials used in the construction are, to be kind, ‘cheap and cheerless’. They are wound on automatic machines with little care and attention to detail during the winding process. They are running on the edge all the time because of these manufacturing conditions. Most of these transformers are very noisy mechanically as they often have loose cores and windings. This type of transformer has no place in a high-end system, where background noise can be a serious distraction, so what I am about to say does not relate to these low quality transformers.

Regarding the size issue, back to my family saloon/Bugatti Veyron analogy. Both will take you where you want to go but the Veyron will do it effortlessly. Put your foot down and the family saloon will struggle but will get you there eventually. Trying to stop rapidly is also a struggle. The Veyron will go like a bat out of hell and stop on a sixpence. It’s just coasting with far more energy available and a heavily engineered system to keep things under control when the going gets tough. Yes it is over-specified for the job, but I know which I would prefer, and it is not just about looks and flash. The performance is exemplary.

Increasing the transformer size allows for reduced secondary impedance, which in turn allows more current to be available for transient demands. The flux density in the primary drops with increasing size and this reduces the sensitivity to core saturation overload. There is also less leakage flux from winding to winding, which reduces interaction between the windings. The winding technique is critical to high performance and this is an area where information is carefully guarded due to proprietary rights protection.

The SR5 transformer is one of Terry’s specials. The winding is carefully controlled on a manually operated winding machine. High quality materials are used and the transformer is wound on an oversize core with inherently low flux density so there are no core saturation problems even when the mains voltage is higher than usual. The transformer is designed for silent running so no annoying buzzes in the listening room.

The transformer combined with the regulator module I use for this supply gives an exceptionally quiet power supply both electrically and mechanically.

Hi John,

‘Interesting Power supply Paul.
Do you have a spec sheet and price for it?
Is that phosphor bronze?’

The regulator is a proprietary discrete component topology using error amplifier devices with a noise spec of 0.5 nanovolts root Hz and a noise corner of 1 Hz. The regulator output noise measured 35 nanovolts root Hz on an HP3561a spectrum analyser. This is half the noise level (6 dB lower) of the low noise version of the ALW regulator that many audio enthusiasts have used in their DIY projects. 35 nanovolts root Hz is around 5 nanovolts rms over a 20 KHz bandwidth. A National Semiconductor LM317 would typically have around 630 nanovolts rms output noise in standard configuration and in the region of 63 nanovolts rms output noise with the low noise configuration when set for an output voltage of 21 volts.

Cascode operation of the SR5 regulator error amplifier, on a higher supply rail than the output stage, extends the bandwidth out to around 400 Mhz allowing high-speed drive to the mosfet output device gate, which in turn enables rapid, very high transient current delivery, into the load.

The output mosfet is a very rugged IXYS device capable of delivering large transient currents, well in excess of 60 amps, into the load. The continuous current delivery is 4 amps. Both of these current delivery specs comfortably exceed the SL1200/SL1210 requirements with Mike New’s excellent Platter and bearing system fitted to the deck.

Output impedance of the regulator measured <3 milliohms from DC to 80 KHz and the supply line rejection >80 dB from DC to 80 KHz.

The output Mosfet is mounted on a copper bracket to enable fast heat removal under high current conditions.

Mark,

The SR5 is a high-speed series regulated power supply not a shunt regulated one. I have a high current shunt regulator design that would work with the SL1200/SL1210 but it is not as quiet as the series regulator (around 12 dB higher noise level). Also the available transient current is restricted to the current limit setting of the current source feeding the shunt element of the regulator. This regulator requires heavy thermal engineering and is more costly to implement.

I have to go now, as food is ready (and wine I hope).

Regards
Paul

Reid Malenfant
22-12-2010, 19:11
.Mark,

The SR5 is a high-speed series regulated power supply not a shunt regulated one. I have a high current shunt regulator design that would work with the SL1200/SL1210 but it is not as quiet as the series regulator (around 12 dB higher noise level). Also the available transient current is restricted to the current limit setting of the current source feeding the shunt element of the regulator. This regulator requires heavy thermal engineering and is more costly to implement.

I have to go now, as food is ready (and wine I hope).

Regards
Paul
Yep, just sussed that out at about 18:48 by looking at the pictures you kindly linked to :eyebrows: I didn't think there was enough heatsinking & i couldn't see a series dissipating element such as a power resistor or possibly another mosfet used as a resistor ;)

Paul Hynes
22-12-2010, 19:18
Hi Mark,

It's not necessarily what you use. How you use it can be significant.

Have a good Christmas and I hope the New Year is a good one for you.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
22-12-2010, 19:38
Thanks for that excellent circuit description, Paul. I didn't think it was a shunt regulator as I ran it at work all day on zero-load soak and there was no heat!

Paul Hynes
24-12-2010, 13:03
High power shunt regulators eat power and are relatively expensive to run. This is relevant with electricity costs spiralling ever upwards :stalks:, although just like a class A amplifier, you can use them for background heating as well as powering equipment.

One thing I did not mention in my last post regarding power connection from the SR5 to the SL1200/1210. I am not particularly pleased with the performance of the DC connectors used in much consumer electronics nowadays. They are really designed for low cost equipment and their contact resistance and reliability can be questionable. Even the ones using a screw-locking collar do not inspire me with confidence with regards to providing a reliable long-term low impedance connection.

I have fitted a 2.5mm DC connector in parallel with the SR5 XLR DC output connector for some of you, who for convenience, wanted to use the Timestep DC lead already fitted to your deck. For reliability and better sound quality I recommend using the XLR DC outlet on the back of the SR5, rather than the 2.5mm DC connector, as the XLR is a much better connector with a contact resistance spec of <3 milliohms. The pin configuration for the XLR on the back panel is pin 1 = 0v and pin 4 = +21v. If you decide to make yourself a new DC lead, use quality wire with a decent current rating and preferably use a high quality XLR plug as the low cost ones have questionable performance. Also make sure you get the polarity of the power correct as you will do damage to the SL deck electronics if you do not. You should hear a worthwhile improvement with a high quality cable/XLR lead replacement. For even lower impedance I can fit a Jeager industrial precision connector to the SR5 as a custom option, which specs at <1 milliohm contact resistance.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
24-12-2010, 13:26
Thanks, Paul. Any idea where I can source a 4-pin XLR plug, as they seem rare compared with 3-pin?

MartinT
24-12-2010, 13:34
Scratch that, found Neutrik connectors at CPC.

Paul Hynes
24-12-2010, 13:58
Hi Martin,

I use Deltron silver plated connectors from Farnell. Neutrik are another good make.

Regards
Paul

Marco
24-12-2010, 14:28
Hi Paul,

I've been rather busy and will contribute more to this thread later, but regarding this:


Also make sure you get the polarity of the power correct as you will do damage to the SL deck electronics if you do not.


How would you know what is correct or incorrect in that respect? Anthony will likely be doing the job for me :)

The reason I ask is that I've obtained a high-quality DC cable from Kimber which I'd like to fit to my 1210.

I'd also like to fit it to the XLR plug you supplied with the adaptors you made up to take a 2.5mm DC connector, so that the end of the adaptor (with the XLR plug) goes into the SR5, presuming that the XLR plug you used is of decent quality for the job I have in mind?

Therefore, your advice on this would be appreciated :cool:

Marco.

Paul Hynes
24-12-2010, 14:50
Hi Marco,

The power supply 0 volt terminal (pin 1) would be wired to the ground point on the control printed circuit board at the same point the timestep lead 0 volt wire is connected, and the +21 volt terminal (pin4) would be wired to the same point that the Timestep +ve wire is connected to the board.

Anthony will know what to do.

For others who are competent wiremen Shuggie has posted about this in

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8118

For those that are not confident with internal modifications seek help from someone who has good diy abilities or find a good pro electronics engineer who can do it for you. You can also ship the deck to me for modification if this is your preference although I will charge for my time, as would any other engineer.

It’s not a difficult mod, you just have to pay attention to what you are doing and check your work thoroughly before applying power.

For those wishing to implement the internal dual regulated modification, details will be posted shortly.

Regards
Paul

Marco
24-12-2010, 15:04
Hi Paul,

Thanks for that - sounds straightforward enough :)

Marco.

MartinT
24-12-2010, 16:40
I'd also like to fit it to the XLR plug you supplied with the adaptors you made up to take a 2.5mm DC connector, so that the end of the adaptor (with the XLR plug) goes into the SR5, presuming that the XLR plug you used is of decent quality for the job I have in mind?

Marco, if you keep the 2.5mm connector in circuit you're not going to benefit much by use of the Kimber cable. You need to solder the cable to the Technics PCB and the XLR plug to the other end, eliminating the 2.5mm connections altogether. I will be doing the same as soon as I receive the Neutrik plug.

Marco
24-12-2010, 16:53
Hi Martin,

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear - that's exactly what I intend to do :)

Which DC cable are you going to use, or did Paul provide something suitable along with the SR5?

I'm still using the original cable supplied with my old Timestep PSU, as that's what was already soldered into position. It's a bit too thin, though, and not of particularly great quality, which is why I'm going to use the Kimber DC cable supplied with the Russ Andrews 'Dynapak' PSUs. I obtained some of this cable, as a special order, a while ago.

It's the same as shown here, fitted to the Russ Andrews Dynapak DC PSU (the cable is the usual Kimber RFI-rejecting 'woven' design - like a thinner version of the stuff used in their Classic Powerkords):


http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2255/1801l.jpg (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/1801l.jpg/)


I was using it when I had my old KAB PSU (where it was a big upgrade on the usual supplied 'black & white' DC cable), but Dave C didn't want to retain it when he fitted the Timestep, as he said it was, I quote: "an unknown quantity"....

Anyway, one end will be hard-wired to the Techie's PCB, and the other fitted with an XLR plug, to go into the back of the SR5. That should give a further sonic improvement :cool:

Marco.

freem
24-12-2010, 17:03
I have been following this thread with interest as I have an SR5 on order.
Perhaps someone could explain please what is the dual regulated mod as mentioned by Paul.

Paul Hynes
24-12-2010, 17:34
Hello Paul,

The dual regulation mod is the next level of power supply upgrade for the SL1200/1210 after the installation of the SR5. It is an internal modification of the SL1200/1210 printed circuit board and installation of two additional voltage regulators. It consists of separating the power feed to the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry and providing each with a separate high performance voltage regulator.

Separating the regulation for the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry reduces interaction between these stages, via the power line on the internal printed circuit board, and this also improves the sound quality of the deck giving a more open and stable sound stage with improved dynamic scale.

The external SR5 power supply is then adjusted to 27 volts to provide pre-regulation of the two internal regulators, effectively providing two layers of supply line interference rejection and making the deck much less susceptible to performance variations caused by varying mains quality.

Aside from the above improvements there is also a nice improvement in low-level information retrieval with these modifications.

This level of power supply upgrade requires reasonable DIY experience, as some printed circuit track surgery is required as well as wiring in the two additional voltage regulators. For those who do not wish to implement this modification themselves I will be offering this upgrade as a service in the New Year once the holidays are over.

Regards
Paul

freem
24-12-2010, 17:39
Hello Paul,

The dual regulation mod is the next level of power supply upgrade for the SL1200/1210 after the installation of the SR5. It is an internal modification of the SL1200/1210 printed circuit board and installation of two additional voltage regulators. It consists of separating the power feed to the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry and providing each with a separate high performance voltage regulator.

Separating the regulation for the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry reduces interaction between these stages, via the power line on the internal printed circuit board, and this also improves the sound quality of the deck giving a more open and stable sound stage with improved dynamic scale.

The external SR5 power supply is then adjusted to 27 volts to provide pre-regulation of the two internal regulators, effectively providing two layers of supply line interference rejection and making the deck much less susceptible to performance variations caused by varying mains quality.

Aside from the above improvements there is also a nice improvement in low-level information retrieval with these modifications.

This level of power supply upgrade requires reasonable DIY experience, as some printed circuit track surgery is required as well as wiring in the two additional voltage regulators. For those who do not wish to implement this modification themselves I will be offering this upgrade as a service in the New Year once the holidays are over.

Regards
Paul

Thanks Paul for the explanation. I will be in touch after Christmas.

DSJR
24-12-2010, 19:03
Is all this in addition to Dave C's regulator mod, or instead of? Dave has provided measurements showing the difference his regulator mod made and it was quite extensive. if this is done, would a double reg really make things any better or just introduce more complexity?

Reid Malenfant
24-12-2010, 19:27
I'm not sure but you may recall Dave that i mentioned this on another thread ;)

I brought up the fact that in effect the voltage regulation wasn't taking place where it was actually needed, but at the power supply itself. What's needed to get the very best out of the 1210 is a quality regulator that controls the voltage right at the 1210 PCB, rather than up to 1M away with all the fluctuations that current draw over the cable resistance will cause :)

At that point Paul joined in the thread & mentioned he was working on a couple of regulators that will each be in control of one part of the TT systems. Splitting the contol circuits (which use little current & much more uniform current draw) from the motor power circuits that will draw current in big pulses makes perfect sense.

You may think of it as more complex, but in reality it's far harder to regulate a supply that has big current fluctuations. Splitting it will bring pretty big benefits as well as having the regulation exactly where it's needed & not at a distance. In certain respects making things a tad more complex makes things a lot easier & will definately improve things ;)

REXTON
24-12-2010, 19:31
Hello Paul,

The dual regulation mod is the next level of power supply upgrade for the SL1200/1210 after the installation of the SR5. It is an internal modification of the SL1200/1210 printed circuit board and installation of two additional voltage regulators. It consists of separating the power feed to the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry and providing each with a separate high performance voltage regulator.

Separating the regulation for the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry reduces interaction between these stages, via the power line on the internal printed circuit board, and this also improves the sound quality of the deck giving a more open and stable sound stage with improved dynamic scale.

The external SR5 power supply is then adjusted to 27 volts to provide pre-regulation of the two internal regulators, effectively providing two layers of supply line interference rejection and making the deck much less susceptible to performance variations caused by varying mains quality.

Aside from the above improvements there is also a nice improvement in low-level information retrieval with these modifications.

This level of power supply upgrade requires reasonable DIY experience, as some printed circuit track surgery is required as well as wiring in the two additional voltage regulators. For those who do not wish to implement this modification themselves I will be offering this upgrade as a service in the New Year once the holidays are over.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

I'm going to be borrowing Marco's SR5 next month at some point so I cant wait to see your handywork! I have a few questions. Firstly, will you be publishing or supplying relevant kit for this mod so us "tweakers" can have a crack at installing it. Secondly, how many levels of voltage regulation could be added to the 12xx series and would we start getting the laws of diminishing returns with regards to the number of levels of regulation regards information detail?? I'm thinking of some threads I've been reading about CD modifications where there seems be voltage regulation for every circuit on the PCB!!

Marco
24-12-2010, 19:59
I'm not sure but you may recall Dave that i mentioned this on another thread ;)

I brought up the fact that in effect the voltage regulation wasn't taking place where it was actually needed, but at the power supply itself. What's needed to get the very best out of the 1210 is a quality regulator that controls the voltage right at the 1210 PCB, rather than up to 1M away with all the fluctuations that current draw over the cable resistance will cause :)

At that point Paul joined in the thread & mentioned he was working on a couple of regulators that will each be in control of one part of the TT systems. Splitting the contol circuits (which use little current & much more uniform current draw) from the motor power circuits that will draw current in big pulses makes perfect sense.

You may think of it as more complex, but in reality it's far harder to regulate a supply that has big current fluctuations. Splitting it will bring pretty big benefits as well as having the regulation exactly where it's needed & not at a distance. In certain respects making things a tad more complex makes things a lot easier & will definately improve things ;)

I'm liking the sound of that! I therefore can't wait to have my T/T's PSU configured that way - this is going to be MEGA!! :eek: :eyebrows:

Paul, is that what Anthony and you have been working on, and if so, will he have all the bits necessary to do the job (and be aware of what's involved)? :cool:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
24-12-2010, 20:04
Here you go (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8920) :eyebrows:

anthonyTD
24-12-2010, 20:14
hi all,
the new techie mods paul is offering at the moment are his own designs, however, we both agreed in our descusions that individualy regulating certain parts of the techie circuitry would be very beneficial.
as a help to paul, i will probably be offering my services to the less technicaly minded who would like these mods carried out in the new year, however, this would need to be discussed between paul and myself before we can proceed with a plan!
Anthony,TD...

Marco
24-12-2010, 20:22
Thanks for the clarification, matey :)

Marco.

Pete
24-12-2010, 21:01
Well that dual internal regulator mod really looks intriguing.
Would love to hear impressions with SR5, pre and post internal regs, on a deck equipped with a MN bearing and platter.

Marco
24-12-2010, 21:09
Hi Pete,

Don't worry, I'll be doing precisely that in due course... I expect this to be *the* definitive off-board PSU solution for the SL-1200/1210 which will leave all others in the shade! :)

Marco.

Pete
24-12-2010, 21:36
Hi Pete,

Don't worry, I'll be doing precisely that in due course... I expect this to be *the* definitive off-board PSU solution for the SL-1200/1210 which will leave all others in the shade! :)

Marco.

Well life just doesn't get much better than this :)

Merry Christmas to all and to all a :goodnight:

Mike_New
24-12-2010, 22:01
Marco and Paul


Hi Marco,

The power supply 0 volt terminal (pin 1) would be wired to the ground point on the control printed circuit board at the same point the timestep lead 0 volt wire is connected, and the +21 volt terminal (pin4) would be wired to the same point that the Timestep +ve wire is connected to the board.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8118

Regards
Paul

Be careful about using the same point as that used by the Timestep PS.
I have a customer in Melbourne who received his new 'modded SL1200' with the zero volt wire connected to the top of the PCB under one of the self tap screws, for convenience presumedly. Fortunateley he is a former Hewlett Packard instumentation engineer of some considerable experience, he called me to indicate his dissapointment at this.

These screws should not be use as the earth point, as they have no connection with the zero volt copper track on the PCB. The only screw that serves as the earth connection point on the PCB is the bottom left hand corner, where the copper track is taken specifically to this point.

If any other earth point is used, then the 0 volt circuit will be via the alluminium chassis. The die cast alluminium is to an extent granular and is certainly not a good conductor, thus you will have a resistance (and noise) to earth which could seriously degrade performance.

MCRU
24-12-2010, 22:17
Marco...

The reason I ask is that I've obtained a high-quality DC cable from Kimber which I'd like to fit to my 1210.

Would that be the kimber cable that uses copper that has been specially optimized for mains voltage, their phrase not mine???

Marco
24-12-2010, 22:59
Hi Mike,

Noted - cheers! :)

Hi David,

Dunno, mate - it's just their ordinary DC cable, as far as I know. But it works very well!

How's the Techie sounding, then? :cool:

Marco.

leo
24-12-2010, 23:42
Marco and Paul



Be careful about using the same point as that used by the Timestep PS.
I have a customer in Melbourne who received his new 'modded SL1200' with the zero volt wire connected to the top of the PCB under one of the self tap screws, for convenience presumedly. Fortunateley he is a former Hewlett Packard instumentation engineer of some considerable experience, he called me to indicate his dissapointment at this.

These screws should not be use as the earth point, as they have no connection with the zero volt copper track on the PCB. The only screw that serves as the earth connection point on the PCB is the bottom left hand corner, where the copper track is taken specifically to this point.

If any other earth point is used, then the 0 volt circuit will be via the alluminium chassis. The die cast alluminium is to an extent granular and is certainly not a good conductor, thus you will have a resistance (and noise) to earth which could seriously degrade performance.

I used the screw on the bottom left , a metal tag/washer on the top board goes through the pcb and is in direct contact with the main ground on the bottom of the pcb . I'd be surprised if TS did use one of the other screws :doh:

MartinT
25-12-2010, 08:25
Which DC cable are you going to use, or did Paul provide something suitable along with the SR5?

I am sticking with the cable that Dave Cawley installed but I've shortened it dramatically to about a third of its length. It seems perfectly adequate and I doubt that it drops voltage by much at all.

Once I've installed the Neutrik connector I'll measure the voltage drop from SR5 to Technics PCB.

MartinT
25-12-2010, 08:32
Oh, and Dave's Timestep cable uses the stripe for positive voltage so polarity is easily identified.

Ammonite Acoustics
25-12-2010, 08:32
Marco and Paul



Be careful about using the same point as that used by the Timestep PS.
I have a customer in Melbourne who received his new 'modded SL1200' with the zero volt wire connected to the top of the PCB under one of the self tap screws, for convenience presumedly. Fortunateley he is a former Hewlett Packard instumentation engineer of some considerable experience, he called me to indicate his dissapointment at this.

These screws should not be use as the earth point, as they have no connection with the zero volt copper track on the PCB. The only screw that serves as the earth connection point on the PCB is the bottom left hand corner, where the copper track is taken specifically to this point.

If any other earth point is used, then the 0 volt circuit will be via the alluminium chassis. The die cast alluminium is to an extent granular and is certainly not a good conductor, thus you will have a resistance (and noise) to earth which could seriously degrade performance.

In my instructions posted in the linked thread, I did recommend using the "proper" PCB earth point, exactly as you say, although my pictures aren't the clearest. It always puzzled me why Timestep chose to use the chassis earth, when there was an optimal one already there on the PCB.

Marco
25-12-2010, 08:56
Hi Hugo or Leo (or anyone else),

Any chance of a pic of where exactly on the PCB this "proper" earth point is? :)

It would be handy to keep as a reference :cool:

Marco.

Marco
25-12-2010, 09:00
Hi Martin,


I am sticking with the cable that Dave Cawley installed but I've shortened it dramatically to about a third of its length. It seems perfectly adequate and I doubt that it drops voltage by much at all.


Fair enough. I've heard the sonic improvement before that the Kimber DC cable made when I had the KAB PSU, so I know it works, and it's sitting there doing nothing just now, so might as well go back in :)

Marco.

Mike_New
25-12-2010, 09:38
Shuggie,


It always puzzled me why Timestep chose to use the chassis earth, when there was an optimal one already there on the PCB.


Are you saying that generally the earth connection is not where it should be!!
I was under the impression that this occurance may only be an occasional thing.

kcc123
25-12-2010, 15:19
Hi,
Can I used the SR3 or SR5 for my SL150? Do I have to send my turntable away for the upgrade? How much advance in performance will I expect? Thanks!

Ammonite Acoustics
25-12-2010, 15:59
Shuggie,




Are you saying that generally the earth connection is not where it should be!!
I was under the impression that this occurance may only be an occasional thing.

Mike, I'm sorry but you've lost me there :scratch:


Hi Hugo or Leo (or anyone else),

Any chance of a pic of where exactly on the PCB this "proper" earth point is?

It would be handy to keep as a reference

Marco.

This photo shows the PCB's proper earthing point (bottom left hand side, as you look from the front of the deck):

http://i43.tinypic.com/6zmv41.jpg

Marco
25-12-2010, 16:05
Hi Hugo,

Thanks for that, mate... However, it's still unclear to me *exactly* where the proper earthing point is (the bottom L/H side, as I see it, is just an area of black metal)..... :confused:

Any chance of doing one of those arrows Leo uses, so I can see precisely the *EXACT* spot on the PCB you're referring to (close-up, as a full-screen size picture) in terms of where the relevant wires are to be soldered? :)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
25-12-2010, 16:08
I think Hugo is refering to the black wire & solder tag connected to the mounting screw on the front left hand side of the PCB on the right Marco ;)

Nice arrow added ;) 3310

Ammonite Acoustics
25-12-2010, 16:13
I think Hugo is refering to the black wire & solder tag connected to the mounting screw on the front left hand side of the PCB on the right Marco ;)

Correct!

Marco
25-12-2010, 16:18
Ah I see it now! Nice one....

Any chance, guys, of a full-sized close-up screen shot of the whole PCB, and an arrow pointing at that particular bit, just to keep as a reference? The other pics are a bit small :)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Paul Hynes
25-12-2010, 16:42
Hi kcc123,

I see no reason why the SL150 power supply can’t be upgraded. There are three main power supplies to consider, 20v, 12v, and 5v and the possibility of individual stage regulation as well. The SR3-20 and the SR3-12 could be used to replace the 20 and 12 volt supply sections. The 5 volt regulator is fairly rudimentary and deals with the display electronics so should not be too demanding. However I would prefer to not to take on any more upgrade projects like this at present, until I have finished with the ones I am working on now.

Regards
Paul

kcc123
25-12-2010, 18:36
Hi Paul,

Thanks!

Merry Xmas!

leo
25-12-2010, 22:47
Ah I see it now! Nice one....

Any chance, guys, of a full-sized close-up screen shot of the whole PCB, and an arrow pointing at that particular bit, just to keep as a reference? The other pics are a bit small :)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Black wire running to the point 0v marked with red arrow

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P11101531.jpg

leo
25-12-2010, 22:58
Mike, I'm sorry but you've lost me there :scratch:





I think Mike was under the impression a few of the TS ones may have been fitted differently by mistake but seems all may have been fitted this way ?

Marco
25-12-2010, 23:00
Hi Leo,


Black wire running to the point 0v marked with red arrow

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P11101531.jpg

Fantastic - that's exactly what I was looking for! :)

Marco.

MartinT
03-01-2011, 17:59
I opened my Techie up to check the 0V tag and indeed it had been placed on the top-right post (i.e. the wrong one) by Timestep. I re-routed the cable slightly and attached the tag to the correct bottom-left post. This cable is now quite short and just reaches the SR5 PSU with little to spare, just as I want it for least voltage drop. Things are sounding very good indeed.

I've now received a 4-pin Neutrik connector and will fit this next, to replace the 5/2.5mm PSU plug.

Marco
03-01-2011, 18:20
Hi Martin,


I opened my Techie up to check the 0V tag and indeed it had been placed on the top-right post (i.e. the wrong one) by Timestep.


Quoi??

This is impossible... After all, we're talking about the WORLD's No1 Technics guru, no less!!! :eyebrows:

;)


I re-routed the cable slightly and attached the tag to the correct bottom-left post. This cable is now quite short and just reaches the SR5 PSU with little to spare, just as I want it for least voltage drop. Things are sounding very good indeed.

I've now received a 4-pin Neutrik connector and will fit this next, to replace the 5/2.5mm PSU plug.

Yup, I can see the logic in that, and am sure that there are undoubtedly sonic benefits to be had. I'll be doing the same thing on my deck with the Kimber DC cable :)

Let us know how you get on and whether you can detect an overall sonic improvement after having carried out both modifications :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
03-01-2011, 18:24
Nearly forgot: I've put a set of sorbothane Flatfeet under the PH PSU feet.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flatfeet-Sorbothane-audiophile-isolation-supports-/230567339881?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_CDPlayerSeparates&hash=item35aee26769

Mike_New
03-01-2011, 22:30
Hi Marco,

Hi Martin,

Quoi??

This is impossible... After all, we're talking about the WORLD's No1 Technics guru, no less!!! :eyebrows:
;)

Marco.

And he says he lectures to NASA as well, no less!!!
Self appointed garu I think

Let this be a lesson to all the deciples, who believe his every word.
What does the instruction sheet say?, for those who have installed their own PS??
I have measured the effective resistance from the top point to the proper earth tag and it is approx 0.08ohm. Although this will vary from chassis to chassis.
The worst part is the possible "noisy" earth return that this connection point will cause. This is why Technics did what they did!!!

I was made aware of the possible situation some 6 months ago but stupidly did not beleive that it would be common practice!!! and that it was a one-off mistake. And so I did not make any mention of it untill recently.

MartinT
03-01-2011, 22:31
I played a 12" 45 single earlier this evening and something wasn't quite right. I could hear pitch instability. I selected another 45 with sustained piano notes and could hear it more easily.

Something in the back of my mind recalled Dave Cawley saying that the MD mod was designed for the standard Techie platter and may not work as designed with a heavier rotating mass. So off came the Achromat and the Vaseline and the platter (2nd time tonight) and I cut the MD mod components out. After rebuilding I listened carefully and the instability had gone. Everything is rock steady at 45rpm and remains so at 33rpm. So I recommend that if anyone is going to use the Mike New or other heavy platter solution, remove the MD mod if fitted.

Things sound superb at the moment with even more treble and midrange purity. Just the Neutrik connector to go.

Picture showing the incorrectly placed 0V tag (circled top-right) and motor dynamics mod components (circled bottom-right).

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/SL-1210 Inside MD Mod.jpg

leo
03-01-2011, 23:07
Hi Marco,


And he says he lectures to NASA as well, no less!!!
Self appointed garu I think

Let this be a lesson to all the deciples, who believe his every word.
What does the instruction sheet say?, for those who have installed their own PS??
I have measured the effective resistance from the top point to the proper earth tag and it is approx 0.08ohm. Although this will vary from chassis to chassis.
The worst part is the possible "noisy" earth return that this connection point will cause. This is why Technics did what they did!!!

I was made aware of the possible situation some 6 months ago but stupidly did not beleive that it would be common practice!!! and that it was a one-off mistake. And so I did not make any mention of it untill recently.

Nothing like keeping those ground paths short and clean :whistle:

Mike_New
04-01-2011, 01:13
Martin,


I played a 12" 45 single earlier this evening and something wasn't quite right. I could hear pitch instability. I selected another 45 with sustained piano notes and could hear it more easily.

Something in the back of my mind recalled Dave Cawley saying that the MD mod was designed for the standard Techie platter and may not work as designed with a heavier rotating mass. So off came the Achromat and the Vaseline and the platter (2nd time tonight) and I cut the MD mod components out. After rebuilding I listened carefully and the instability had gone. Everything is rock steady at 45rpm and remains so at 33rpm. So I recommend that if anyone is going to use the Mike New or other heavy platter solution, remove the MD mod if fitted.

Things sound superb at the moment with even more treble and midrange purity. Just the Neutrik connector to go.

Picture showing the incorrectly placed 0V tag (circled top-right) and motor dynamics mod components (circled bottom-right).

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/SL-1210 Inside MD Mod.jpg

Much earlier this year I enquired as to what values Cawley was using for his motor dynamics mod. The response was: "The motor dynamics mod reduces the torque to make it sound more like a LP-12, I'll probably take it off soon!"

I have been studying the circuit today and would sugest that you all take it off (if fitted) as it serves no purpose in my judgement and can only impair the sonic performance.

MartinT
04-01-2011, 06:35
Excellent advice, Mike. Looking at Dave's oscilloscope captures I'd say it wasn't just the torque that was reduced but the motor circuit's ability to respond quickly to change. Tallies with what I heard, anyway.

MartinT
04-01-2011, 18:27
4-pin Neutrik connector now soldered in place of the 5/2.5mm plug. I've been having a listen just now and I realise that the sum total of small changes have added up to quite some more insight. To recap:

- 0V tag moved to correct earthing point on Technics PCB
- motor dynamics mod removed
- cable shortened to just long enough
- Neutrik plug installed at SR5 end
- Small sorbothane feet placed under SR5

I am noticing a lot of small cues in the recording that bring it more to life. Pitch is rock steady and this seems to make the high midrange and treble sound purer. Treble in particular is noticeably cleaner than CD. Dynamics are at quite another level and very exciting on some recordings. Surface noise and the odd blemish are not intrusive. 45 and 33 rpm sound similar but the sheer clout of some 12" singles is something to behold. The sound is big and full of impact and makes me want to keep playing more.

REXTON
05-01-2011, 18:09
- 0V tag moved to correct earthing point on Technics PCB


Been following this for a while and i cant believe some of the comments I have heards about the Timestep powersupply. I opened up my 1210 to find that I too had followed the instructions and had incorrectly earthed the power supply and I notice a faint hum in the backgroud. :stalks: Just to clarify, where does the power supply need to be properly earthed?:scratch: It beggars belief that a "technics 1210 guru" hasn't a clue on properly earthing an external power supply. Incidently I too notice that small record cues in the background and also agree with the stability of notes with the mods that MartinT has done as I too have virtually the same mods, the only difference is that I dont have the SR5 which I may decided to purchase!!

MartinT
05-01-2011, 19:53
Just to clarify, where does the power supply need to be properly earthed?

As you look at the deck from the front, the earthing post and 0V point is at the bottom-left corner of the main PCB.

JazzBones
05-01-2011, 20:24
As you look at the deck from the front, the earthing post and 0V point is at the bottom-left corner of the main PCB.

For what its worth, I down load one of the better pictures of the 'opened'
1200/10 and then make a colour print photo to say a A5 size or something I can see clearly and then use a marker to notate the corrected point of connection. Also you have a visual on hand for any other reference once the deck has been put together again.

This saves time in having to come back to the PC, find the relevant advisory post and then hot foot it back to the operating table as it were....it works for me :)

Ron

Mike_New
05-01-2011, 21:49
It would seem that I have opened a hornets nest, with my observation and advice about the earthing point. I did not make mention of this before as I would never have believed it to be so!!!

May I sugest to Marco that maybe he sets up a sticky page that is a collecton of all the more pertinant advice concerning the earthing point and the motor dynamics mods and names it accordingly. This way unfortunates from other forums may be able to benefit from the advice provided by AoS.

Also an incorrectly fixed earth could have repercussions directly on the audio signal per se. because the earth return current from the motor control circuit is now partly spread over the chassis!! and the earth point for the Tone arm is in the vacinity. I will leave Paul to comment on this as he is far more experienced in this area than I.

MCRU
05-01-2011, 22:02
Maybe the best advice is to leave the thing alone.ho.ho.ho

Happy New Year Mike.

StanleyB
06-01-2011, 09:12
Black wire running to the point 0v marked with red arrow

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P11101531.jpg

I try to keep myself mainly involved with digital audio modification these days, but as a rare treat to all you 1200 owners I'll let you have a free but valuable piece of modification info :).

The screw and earthing clip that Leo has marked out in the red text should be degreased with something like surgical alcohol. Those two bits should not be touched with your bare fingers if possible after that. Use a clean set of surgical gloves or a piece of kitchen tissue.
If you wish to go a bit further, you can even add a very thin layer of solder over the one side of the clip where it touches the bottom end of the screw.

Please don't ask what this mod does, since I won't give that part of my secret mod away ;). But yiu can make a before and after listening test and let me know if it worked for you :eyebrows:.

chris@panteg
06-01-2011, 09:50
This is turning into the Techie KliniK :) but seriously Stan ' that seems to make sense to me as the circuit board and everything on it must be very sensitive .

Mark Grant
06-01-2011, 10:17
The screw and earthing clip that Leo has marked out in the red text should be degreased with something like surgical alcohol.

Great idea, I use isopropyl alcohol ( also known as IPA) for degreasing before soldering connections etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

or to be really geeky, Caig Deoxit to clean contacts.
http://www.caig.com/

Deoxit links:

http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=caig+deoxit&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&oe=&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=zJUlTdXOCImLhQeXhfX1AQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CEYQrQQwAw

IPA links:
http://www.google.co.uk/products?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&q=isopropyl+alcohol&wrapid=tlif12943083733211&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=IJQlTYWSGIuDhQffuIW0Ag&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CEQQrQQwAg

And as Stan says, wear gloves, dont touch contact areas with bare skin as you contaminate the surface with grease from your skin.

StanleyB
06-01-2011, 10:42
Hi Mark, I reckon we'll have quite a few 1200 owners rushing to do this mod, and 'professionals' who charge for their service quickly updating their websites to add this on their list of money making options ;).

Mark Grant
06-01-2011, 11:56
I dont have a Techie here so I am only commenting based on looking at the pictures :)

I always clean any metal to metal electrical contact and I guess you do too :)

Every little helps as they say..

colinB
06-01-2011, 12:14
Would the tonearm earthwire work better on that earth point as opposed to the screw on the pitch slider ( always doubted this is a good earth )
I have always had a background hum with my turntable but that could be part of the course using a tube pre amp i dont know.

DSJR
06-01-2011, 12:28
Go easy guys, this thread is getting neurotic enough as it is :lol:

chris@panteg
06-01-2011, 13:01
Well iv'e just done mine , moved the earth tag without touching it and cleaned both contacts with isopropanol :)

So my earth is now in the correct place , Will listen at the weekend if i get a chance , not listened to my deck over crimbo ,too damn ill :(.

MartinT
06-01-2011, 13:35
not listened to my deck over crimbo ,too damn ill :(.

Sorry to hear that, Chris. There are a lot of viruses going around and I was coughing and spluttering too. Damned hard to shake off, actually.

Mike_New
06-01-2011, 23:13
Hi Folks.

The final Words and Music on the earth point

The printed circuit board is only a 'single layer' board (referring to the copper layer)
Now the actual, absolute Zero-Volt earth point for the PCB is therefore on the underneath side of the PCB. not on the top surface.

It therefore follows, that for the lowest resistance possible between the earth tag and the 0 volt line of the circuitry, the earth tag must be connected on the underside of the PCB, where the copper track is.

If this is not done, then the electrical path from the earth wire tag, has to go through the self tap screw on the top of the PCB, down into the alluminium supporting post and then back to the top of the post where hopefully it has a good contact with the copper on the PCB.

Now the chassis is roughly sprayed with silver paint during production, and the post in question will most likely not have been scraped clean of this paint. (mine were not) so we would now have a measurable resistance between the top of the post and the copper track.
So in order to ensure that we have a good connection between the copper track, the earth tag and the alluminium post (and therefore the chassis)
Remove any paint on the top of the post before placing the earth tag between it and the PCB.

The ultimate electrically correct solution:
(and which allows for later removal of the PCB)

a) Obtain a larger solder tag than the one used on the earth wire.

b) Carefully solder this to the copper track on the underside of the PCB aligned with the existing hole.

c) Now install the PCB (scrape the paint off the top of the post first) and clamp the self-tap screw in place

d) Now bend the protruding part of the tag upwards and use this as the earth point for the wire.

e) Remove the tag on the earth wire and solder the earth wire to this point.

You will now have a total zero resistance homogeneous earth connection between the PS wire and the copper side of the PCB. And which will allow removal of the PCB by just the unsoldering of the earth wire

Note the foregoing only really applies to the Timestep power supply and others which inject the 21volts directly into the PCB circuitry.

The KAB unit apples it’s DC voltage across the existing full wave rectifier bridge, at the point where the AC would normally be connected. Hence the ‘internally generated’ earth is retained and no separate earth connections are required.
However this approach whilst convenient, does have the disadvantage that all of the DC current now has to pass through only two of the four diodes in the somewhat low cost rectifier bridge, resulting in potentially a higher forward voltage drop and other current-flow related criteria.

In regard to the correct earth point for the tone arm, I believe that the common earth point, which we have now generated at the PCB, should be used. And a heavy wire be connected to this point and taken to the earthing point on the arm.
However any hum or earthing problems which people have experienced in the past by having the incorrect earthing connection, may well now be corrected.

I hope the forgoing has not been too heavy for those of a none technical nature.

Marco
07-01-2011, 00:12
Hi guys,

Mine is done, too... The earth is now in the correct place :)

I have also substituted the rather poor quality black & white DC cable supplied with the Timestep PSU, for the woven-design Kimber DC cable I had from before, and replaced the DC connector with an XLR plug, which now goes into the XLR socket (rather than the DC one) on the back of the SR5 (thanks here goes to Anthony TD - churz, dude!)....

WOW - there is actually quite a noticeable sonic improvement, not necessarily I suspect from moving the earth wire or fitting the XLR plug (although this may have had some benefit), but rather the sonic effect on proceedings of the Kimber cable.

Thing is, I know what this cable does, as I used to use it on my old KAB PSU, and heard the 'before & after' effect of it in that application (compared to the supplied black & white cable), therefore I kind of knew what to expect when Anthony fitted it to the SR5. However, I was keen to hear what it would do now my turntable has since been further optimised.

Basically, the Kimber DC cable removes a significant amount of mains 'hash' and noise from the power supply feeding the T/T (perhaps by removing RFI picked up by the cable after the DC power leaves the PSU?), and shows up the bog standard black & white DC lead as being a rather sonically 'uncouth' and noisy thing, removing a whole layer of underlying 'grunge' from recordings, and allowing musical information to flood through unhindered in a way I haven't heard before with the old DC cable in place.

Vocals and instrumental detail benefit most from the lower noise floor, which are now rendered with a 'hear through' quality and crystalline clarity that makes musical performances even more realistic and convincing, Bass is also tighter, but has added impact and 'slam', with appropriate material.

Quite simply, this is a no-brainer upgrade that largely gives the same sonic effect as upgrading a power lead on a piece of equipment, and so I would urge others using off-board PSUs for their SL-1200/1210s to try this DC cable from Kimber which can be ordered direct from Russ Andrews Accessories.

Trust me, by doing so, you'll release the full potential of your chosen PSU and hear your favourite music like never before! :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
07-01-2011, 00:32
Marco, does that mean I have to open up my deck and do the Vaseline thing AGAIN? I'll check out the RA site in the morning. I'm a bit of a Kimber fan, so not much resistance here :)

chris@panteg
07-01-2011, 00:55
Sorry to hear that, Chris. There are a lot of viruses going around and I was coughing and spluttering too. Damned hard to shake off, actually.

Why thanks Martin , hope you didn't suffer as much as the wifey and i , in fact poor wifey got it really bad :( and of course it was my fault for catching it in the 1st place :rolleyes:.

Marco
07-01-2011, 01:26
Hi Martin,


Marco, does that mean I have to open up my deck and do the Vaseline thing AGAIN? I'll check out the RA site in the morning. I'm a bit of a Kimber fan, so not much resistance here :)

Lol - I'm very confident you'll like the effect this cable gives. You know how the woven construction of Kimber cables virtually eliminates RFI, and how this works in their mains leads?

Well think of that, and imagine the same sonic effect, but with the DC lead to your SR5!

If you're looking at the RA website, I don't think there is a separate order code for the DC cable. From memory (it was a couple of years ago) I had to phone them up and ask if the cable they used on their PowerPak PSUs was available to buy separately.

I was told that it was, and then given a code to use to order it from their website. I can't remember how much the cable was either - certainly not hugely expensive, maybe £15 or £20 for a couple of metres?

Anyway, you're in for a nice little upgrade, even if you currently think things can't get much better.... ;)

For some reason, the quality of the DC cable feeding the PSU seems to be considered unimportant, which is why that cheapo black & white thing is supplied, but in my experience it's as important as any other power cable in your system, and fundamentally important for optimising the sound of your T/T! :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
07-01-2011, 01:35
Cheers mate. I do have a few lengths of Kimber PSB lying around but that's really for interconnects. I'll ask RA about the Link cable in the morning.

I'll take advantage of Mike's advice to clean the earth post and mount the earth tag under the PCB for best contact while I'm at it.

Marco
07-01-2011, 01:40
Yes, I might do that too... This is the cable you need (shown attached to their Powerpak II PSU):


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6946/1801xl.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/1801xl.jpg/)


Under the sheathing, it's basically like a much thinner version of the cable used in Kimber Classic Powercords.

Works a treat! :)

Marco.

DSJR
07-01-2011, 09:06
Just get some .8mm solid core and plait it yourselves...

Remember, we're talking DC from an already very low noise source (you'll upset PH and DC if you say this cable removes yet more hash from the supply when it's already thirty db below audibility due to their careful designs. Unless you all live in severe rf affected areas of course ;)

Don't these woven wires introduce inductance and/or capacitance into the circuit?

Marco
07-01-2011, 09:14
Hi Dave,

Yes, you're right, I should've said remove 'hash'/RFI from the DC supply picked up by the connecting cable between the PSU and the turntable... I'll amend my post accordingly :)

With regard to introducing inductance and capacitance into the circuit, I couldn't say, but the acid fact is that the sound has improved significantly, since I swapped the black & white DC cable supplied with the Kimber one, so I'm very happy that it offers a genuine sonic upgrade.

You know me, my ears are the only arbiter that matters in the final analysis! ;)

Yes of course you could make up your own cable, but for less than the price of some CDs, the Kimber DC cable is a ready-made professionally finished solution.

Marco.

Mark Grant
07-01-2011, 09:23
There should be no noise at all on the DC output of a high quality PSU such as Pauls.:scratch:

My thought on a DC lead would be to use something screened.

Rather than trying to cancel out any noise the cable picks up from the atmosphere with a braid, stop anything getting in to the cable with a screen.
The high quality PSU should be a clean DC output anyway.

If Anyone is interested in experimenting, the cable used in my DSP 1.0 power cable should be ideal. ( just ask if interested)
A length of this with suitable connectors.
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=47
2 x 1.0 mm twisted cores and lots of screening (the screen would need to be earthed at the PSU end in the XLR etc)

I have a few customers that use the DSP 2.5 power cable to feed this PSU and none that bought for this have returned them, so maybe it works :)
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=69

-

Mark Grant
07-01-2011, 09:24
You know me, my ears are the only arbiter that matters in the final analysis! ;)
Marco.

What it sounds like is all that matters :)

Marco
07-01-2011, 09:46
Hi Mark,


There should be no noise at all on the DC output of a high quality PSU such as Pauls.


Indeed - perhaps then the DC cable linking the PSU to the T/T is acting like an aerial and thus picking up some RFI and transferring it to the internal circuitry of the turntable?

Whatever it is, I can definitely hear the noise floor with music significantly reduced when a woven cable, like the Kimber, is used instead of the 'el cheapo' black & white DC cable supplied with the likes of the Timestep PSU :)


My thought on a DC lead would be to use something screened.

Rather than trying to cancel out any noise the cable picks up from the atmosphere with a braid, stop anything getting in to the cable with a screen. The high quality PSU should be a clean DC output anyway.

If Anyone is interested in experimenting, the cable used in my DSP 1.0 power cable should be ideal.


I like that idea! We'll need to try it next time you come down :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
07-01-2011, 09:46
Don't these woven wires introduce inductance and/or capacitance into the circuit?

The weave cancels inductance and introduces capacitance, which is fine for a DC application as it will help to reduce RFI.

Marco
07-01-2011, 09:49
Indeed, and that's precisely what I'm hearing :)

There's definitely mileage in future PH SR3/5s and Timestep PSUs being supplied with high quality DC cables at whatever extra cost.

Marco.

Ammonite Acoustics
07-01-2011, 10:14
Marco

Is the Kimber cable that you have a 3-way braid, or a twisted pair? I had notably better results when powering the KD-770D from the SR5, using Kimber twisted pair, than with some shielded Belden stuff. Paul Hynes did supply the Belden stuff against his own recommendation, which I should have heeded!

Marco
07-01-2011, 10:23
Hi Hugo,

The Kimber cable I have is a twisted set of three thin cables: red, black and blue.

In use, the black and blue cables are simply twisted together and connected to the earth point on the main PCB, as Leo and you showed earlier on your pictures, and the red wire to its usual place on the PCB.

I don't know about the merits of shielded vs. twisted pairs, as I haven't compared the two yet, but I can say for certain that employing the RFI-cancelling effect of the woven Kimber DC cable is a sonic no-brainer :)

I had simply not realised until now how badly the cheapo black & white DC cable was holding back the performance of my T/T!!

Marco.

Clive
07-01-2011, 10:37
Hi Marco,

Are you using the DC plug as in the pic you posted? I know that for his other power supplies Paul would place such plugs right at the bottom of his list, contact resistance is somewhat hit and miss.

Marco
07-01-2011, 10:45
Hi Clive,

No, I'm using it with an XLR plug instead.

I've got no idea whether that made a difference or not, sonically, but the nice 'clunk' as the XLR plug slots into the back of the SR5 is rather more reassuring than the somewhat 'floppy' and less precise contact obtained when using the DC plug! :)

However, I'm sure that addressing contact resistance is a viable consideration. Regardless if one can hear a sonic improvement or not, using XLRs is quite simply a neater and more professional solution.

Marco.

Clive
07-01-2011, 10:46
Hi Clive,

No, I'm using it with an XLR plug instead.

I've got no idea whether that made a difference or not, but the nice 'clunk' as the XLR plug slots into the back of the SR5 is rather more reassuring than the somewhat 'floppy' and less precise contact obtained when using the DC plug! :)

Marco.
Perfect. Probably I would have realised that if I'd paid more attention!

MartinT
07-01-2011, 11:45
For everyone's information, the Kimber Link cable is actually Kimber PBJ signal cable with a sleeve over it, and is £14.40 for 1m off the reel. You can see it here:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2003&customer_id=PAA0739010411279NIWPPOUWVBGLUMCR

I have used this cable in the past for interconnect applications and it's excellent, I hadn't realised that it lends itself to DC applications too. I am ordering a length now.

Paul Hynes
07-01-2011, 11:45
Hi Marco,

The DC leads I normally supply with the SR3, the SR5 and the SR7 are constructed from three cores that are braided, either with oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation. I am not claiming any originality for this construction method. It has been used by Ray Kimber, and others in the audio industry. I like the way this type of cable works whether for signal or power leads.

Martin is correct in stating that the construction method increases the core to core capacitance, and reduces inductive effects. It’s also good at rejecting RFI. This is precisely what is required when the power source is any distance from the load. This type of cable is beneficial in this instance as the very low impedance at high frequencies, of the SR power supplies, would be progressively decoupled along a cable without these characteristics, which would reduce the effectiveness of the power supply in damping RFI along the cable. An inductive cable would show rising impedance with frequency, allowing more RFI pickup. Longer leads would exasperate this situation as the further away from the power supply the higher the high frequency impedance would be. It’s all a question of degree, as with anything in HiFi, you have to look at the operating conditions and optimise the working environment in the best way you can. This is why the remote power supply is not the whole answer and why internal regulator installation in the SL1200/SL1210 provides optimisation of the power supply to load distance issue allowing lower impedance at the load itself as well as isolating circuit section power feeds from each other.

I used to provide design consultancy to Russ Andrews circa late 1980’s and early 1990’s, and everything we worked on had the Kimber version of the woven triple core cable in the signal path, either copper or silver, and the multicore woven cable in the power distribution for DC and mains. I have to say that Ray’s cable products are excellent and I am happy to endorse them.

Regards
Paul

Paul Hynes
07-01-2011, 11:54
Woops! I forgot to discuss the connector issue.

A quality XLR with a typical contact resistance when new of around 3 milliohms is a far better connector than the low cost DC connectors. Even better is the Jaeger industrial connector with a typical contact resistance of less than 1 milliohm. As a custom option I fit the Jaeger to all my power supplies for the DC outlet.

Regards
Paul

MCRU
07-01-2011, 11:56
I think the kimber speaker cable and kimber mains cable or one and the same, any decent mains cable will work better than the thin ones supplied by most manufacturers with their kit.

JazzBones
07-01-2011, 12:31
Indeed, and that's precisely what I'm hearing :)

There's definitely mileage in future PH SR3/5s and Timestep PSUs being supplied with high quality DC cables at whatever extra cost.

Marco.

I have always used the Kimber classicPowerKord which comes fitted with a 13amp fuse and a sticker on the MK plug stating that warranty is denied if this sticker is removed, so far I've never had to replace a blown fuse, except on my Naim XPS2 but thats another story and a half. The Timestep mains cable that came with my TS HE PSU is fused for 5 amps but I'm not going to put a 5amp in the Kimber cable, which I will use, as Russ once advised me that it was the correct fuse for his/Kimber cable, I take that as being correct unless someone knows better?
The 'ordinaire' cable that came with my TS HE has joined others in a gubbins box for emergencies, anyone want to buy it for your electric car :lol:? Don't think it will give you extra mileage?

Now, at last, I have found my TS HE PSU, lost in the loft (I'm sure I'm haunted or summat :scratch:) and the connecting chord to the PSU is a four hole locking collar type, looks good too and maybe it should fit the PH PSU making any furture comparisons for me that much easier?

If I could get my brain and ability around posting pictures I would do a set on the TS HE with connecting chord as you can get a better idea. Have tried following the directives given, herein, but Photobucket will not download?????? Can email the pics to anyone and they put them up? The underside of the unit is locked by a large cross head bolt, presumably to hold a tranformer and make it awkward to slide the innards out for viewing, but it can be done by the really inquisitive boffin or two:eyebrows.

Who amongst us have messed around with ferrite rings? I've put one on the aforementioned Kimber PowerKord but as yet it has not had a test flight.

Ron

MartinT
07-01-2011, 12:41
I use all Kimber PowerKords in my system and have replaced all the fuses with the special Russ Andrews audiophile 13A fuses (I believe all new PowerKords come with these new fuses fitted). They sound excellent and work really well with the PS Audio Powerplant regenerator. This is not an area I intend to change.

MCRU
07-01-2011, 12:44
Oh no not another mains cable debate starting up!

MartinT
07-01-2011, 12:49
Isn't that right up your street? :)

Marco
07-01-2011, 12:55
Oh no not another mains cable debate starting up!

There is no 'debate'.... Furutech-modified MG DSP2.5s are best, so sez me - end of! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

MCRU
07-01-2011, 12:57
Isn't that right up your street? :)

Not really because they always end up with fall outs and heated arguments and various slanging matches etc, etc, etc.

AOS is probably slightly different in that a lot of the members have good enough systems to hear the differences mains cables make. If you had a Marantz CD62 Mk II then maybe not!

Aside I hear very good reports about the PS audio power plant, 2 of my customers have one and say that it's the business!

MCRU
07-01-2011, 12:59
There is no 'debate'.... Furutech-modified MG DSP2.5s are best, so sez me - end of! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

You were endorsing everyone's favorite cable seller earlier Marco.... Russ Andrews, make your mind up!

Bet you don't have a decent fuse inside the Furutech plugs eh??? £85 for a mains plug and it comes with a 9p fuse in it.

Marco
07-01-2011, 13:05
Lol - how do you know I haven't changed the stock fuses for something better? (I have actually!) ;)

The DC cable I mentioned is one of the few RA cables I'd endorse, as it suits the particular application concerned perfectly.

Generally though, I'm not a big fan of their cables, out with of the ridiculously expensive Select range, which I've heard work superbly well in Martin's system :)

Marco.

MCRU
07-01-2011, 13:10
Just guessing with the fuses as you have already experienced people becoming a bit militant about them! Some think they are a gimmick, others not.

RA is a good marketeer and woven cable has it's place in some systems but not in others. The DC cable you can use kimber speaker cable as that is all it is I reckon!

Marco
07-01-2011, 13:26
Indeed. I don't like woven cable as mains leads in my system, and instead prefer Mark Grant's shielding approach with his DSP2.5s.

Regarding the Kimber DC cable, to be precise, it is PBJ internal signal cable, as Martin outlined earlier, shown here:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2003&customer_id=PAA0739010411279NIWPPOUWVBGLUMCR

And because in this application one should really not use any more than a metre, if at all possible, I'd say that £14.40 is total bargain, given the sonic upgrade this cable provides :)

Marco.

Marco
07-01-2011, 23:25
Hi Paul,


Hi Marco,

The DC leads I normally supply with the SR3, the SR5 and the SR7 are constructed from three cores that are braided, either with oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation. I am not claiming any originality for this construction method. It has been used by Ray Kimber, and others in the audio industry. I like the way this type of cable works whether for signal or power leads.

Martin is correct in stating that the construction method increases the core to core capacitance, and reduces inductive effects. It’s also good at rejecting RFI. This is precisely what is required when the power source is any distance from the load. This type of cable is beneficial in this instance as the very low impedance at high frequencies, of the SR power supplies, would be progressively decoupled along a cable without these characteristics, which would reduce the effectiveness of the power supply in damping RFI along the cable. An inductive cable would show rising impedance with frequency, allowing more RFI pickup. Longer leads would exasperate this situation as the further away from the power supply the higher the high frequency impedance would be. It’s all a question of degree, as with anything in HiFi, you have to look at the operating conditions and optimise the working environment in the best way you can. This is why the remote power supply is not the whole answer and why internal regulator installation in the SL1200/SL1210 provides optimisation of the power supply to load distance issue allowing lower impedance at the load itself as well as isolating circuit section power feeds from each other.

I used to provide design consultancy to Russ Andrews circa late 1980’s and early 1990’s, and everything we worked on had the Kimber version of the woven triple core cable in the signal path, either copper or silver, and the multicore woven cable in the power distribution for DC and mains. I have to say that Ray’s cable products are excellent and I am happy to endorse them.


Thanks for a detailed analysis as usual of the subject at hand :)

My experience with Kimber cables is somewhat hit and miss. Some are undoubtedly excellent designs, but the current range I feel lacks some consistency.

However, the woven PBJ cable is undoubtedly superb when used as a DC cable.

It would be interesting at some point to compare either the oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation cables you use with the Kimber DC cable I have here :cool:

Marco.

Paul Hynes
08-01-2011, 10:50
Hi Marco,

I haven’t tried Ray Kimber’s latest offerings so I should have ring fenced the cables statement to the period I was using them.

My favourite ones were the KCAG for signal or low current power where cost wasn’t an issue and PSB for signal and low current power or 8TC/16TC for loudspeaker and high current power when cost had to be considered.

I just use 3 cores woven now but with different materials and wire gauges suitable for the current rating required. Using larger guage wire flies in the face of audio wire theory for some applications but it offers very good sound quality without complex construction requirements and this is all I am looking for in my system where I keep everything in the signal path as simple as possible. The fine silver also makes good interconnects and loudspeaker leads.

Next time I am making cables (usually monthly) I will prepare a copper and a silver cable for you to try. How long do you need them for your current installation?

Regards
Paul

Marco
08-01-2011, 12:52
Hi Paul,

That would be great - say 1.5m, just to be safe? PM me when you have some ready :)

I agree regarding Kimber cables. RA has in my opinion extended the range to a ridiculous level for the sake of profit. Personally, I would prune the range to about half of what it is just now, retaining only the stuff that represents the best SPPV :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
08-01-2011, 15:05
I have an old Kimber power cord, which doesn't work well for me as a mains cable for audio. it does well on one of the computers though and hopefully helps isolate the noisy smps from the mains as a whole. For now, Mark Grants excellent value mains leads are fine, even with bog standard plugs (only well off obsessives need look at the Furutek plug alternatives - and I'm NOT having a pop here either :)), as with the standard plugs, there is a very beneficial difference, especially from wall to distribution block.

Mike_New
09-01-2011, 00:06
If you visit the 'Cable Company" site; retail sellers for the whole Kimber Kable range in the US, you will find that there are nearly a hundred or more wiring/cable options. I have just ordered 3M of the TCX X-VariStrand Hookup Wire at $26.00 per 6 foot lengths.
This I am told is good for up to 3 amps. I believe this would present a more flexible option than the PJB signal cable.
http://thecableco.com/prodListing.php?cat=96&man=26

MartinT
11-01-2011, 19:33
I received the Kimber PBJ cable yesterday, shortly before Paul Hynes' shielded DC cable arrived. I've gone with the Kimber for the moment because it came first and I am a big Kimber fan (sorry Paul but I have a crafty plan for your cable - more later).

The PBJ is a triple braided cable and I soldered it up according to Kimber's recommendation, i.e. blue/black to -ve at source, red to positive. Blue is then cut short at destination, acting only as a drain wire with black and red going to the earth tag and PCB respectively. I also cleaned the earth tag with acetone (thanks, Stan) and put it under the PCB to make a direct connection with the earth track (thanks, Mike), tightening everything up thoroughly. I covered the cable with some nice blue heatshrink sleeving to ensure that the braiding is held tight and not subject to air-borne vibration. Overall I used 0.8m of the cable, long enough to give a comfortable bend to the SR5 but not so long that it dangles.

Playing some music just now, I could hear the difference despite being slightly skeptical of a short DC cable swap. Among others I played some Bachman Turner Overdrive and imagine my surprise when I could hear the improvement in resolution of the two distinct guitars and the shape of the hi-hat, as well as the incredible cleanliness of the original recording. I'm going back to play some more selections now.

MCRU
11-01-2011, 19:37
:wow:

Cables making things sound better, surely I must be on the wrong forum.

Marco
11-01-2011, 19:54
Nice one, Martin - glad the Kimber PBJ has worked out well! :)

The improvement it brought with my T/T was quite marked, so I suspect when you play more recordings you're familiar with, you'll realise just how significant this little tweak is ;)

Marco.

UV101
11-01-2011, 22:23
while we are on the subject of mains cables, I've just secured me 1.5m of Kimber Crystal 24 which I believe is what is used in the signature powerchord (only £400 for the 1.5m version:eyebrows:). I intend to make into the mains cable for my amp! Already had a spare clipsal (since the last cables I made with Yarbo cable) so now I just need another wattgate for the other end. David do you do any "deals" on them for members?

Also as I was catching up through this thread, I noticed the comments about the earthing and cleaning the gnd connection. Does it make that much difference (my earth is soldered onto the board)? I have access to isopropyl alcohol (my better half is a lab tech!) so I'm going "not" buy some detoxit and set about cleaning all my connections!

Is the gain based purely from the connection of the supply to the board? In which case I'd just advise soldering directly to the pcb or is it to do with grounding the deck casting? In which case, could it be worth tapping an M6 into the chassis somewhere and tacking a decent return?

Again going back through the thread, I've always braided my cables. Having said that, the PJB does represent excellent VFM!
:cool:

MartinT
12-01-2011, 07:12
Ian, the key point is to use the bottom-left corner of the PCB as that is the earth return point for a lot of the tracks. If you have soldered to it, all well and good as the cleaning advice is only for when using a tag for the screw hole. However, if you have used another location for your -ve return then you may make a small gain by moving it.

UV101
12-01-2011, 18:25
OK, my point here is simply that if you have board out and you are fitting a regulator, why would you use the screw down gnd connection and not solder it directly to the board. The primary return would then be via a soldered connection on the main PCB and not the tagged screw connection. I would suggest that the gnd connection to the chassis is also important maybe as a screen to electronics. I would treat this connection as secondary to the soldered path back to the regulator. i.e. single ended and not connecting the regulator gnd to the chassis. I would still look for the best possible connection to gnd for the chassis hence the suggestion of tapping a better anchor point.

I think that makes sense!!! it does in my messy brain anyway!:rolleyes:

I am thinking of the chassis gnd much in the same way that some interconnects use the braid only connected at one end of the cable. i.e. they have 2 cores for signal and return/gnd and the briad is only at gnd at one end and therefore not part of the return path.

Taking it a step further, the chassis could be connected to the regulator gnd and isolated from the pcb??:stalks: a basic start on "star" earth?

Clearly the thought of connecting to "any old gnd" when you have paid for some commercial regulation/PSU upgrades is very much a cause for concern!!!!???:scratch:

Edit- as Paul and his PSU's are tagged in the thread I would just like to point out that I am referring to information further back in the thread relating to some other peoples PSU upgrades and NOT Pauls practice or his PSU's

leo
12-01-2011, 23:01
Maybe if the ground wire is screwed in the corner and the wires from the stock internal reg is cut it makes doing the job much easier (although not optimal) ? I don't think you have to take the pcb out to wire up the lead for the external psu if done the quick bodge way ? :whistle:

For us diyers we can take longer so can afford to rip the thing apart , mines currently wired to allow quick dismantling for trying other mods, once finished the wiring will be re-done as fit and forget , all wires will be soldered onto the pads

MCRU
15-01-2011, 12:40
while we are on the subject of mains cables, I've just secured me 1.5m of Kimber Crystal 24 which I believe is what is used in the signature powerchord (only £400 for the 1.5m version:eyebrows:). I intend to make into the mains cable for my amp! Already had a spare clipsal (since the last cables I made with Yarbo cable) so now I just need another wattgate for the other end. David do you do any "deals" on them for members?

Also as I was catching up through this thread, I noticed the comments about the earthing and cleaning the gnd connection. Does it make that much difference (my earth is soldered onto the board)? I have access to isopropyl alcohol (my better half is a lab tech!) so I'm going "not" buy some detoxit and set about cleaning all my connections!

Is the gain based purely from the connection of the supply to the board? In which case I'd just advise soldering directly to the pcb or is it to do with grounding the deck casting? In which case, could it be worth tapping an M6 into the chassis somewhere and tacking a decent return?

Again going back through the thread, I've always braided my cables. Having said that, the PJB does represent excellent VFM!
:cool:

de-oxit wipes are brilliant for cleaning all sorts of bits in your hi-fi, and they cost next to nowt! PM your address and I will post you a couple gratis to try.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_9984.jpg

UV101
22-01-2011, 11:55
Hi David

Got the detoxit wipes in the post this morning thank you!

I'll be using them as I unpack and set up in the new house next weekend so timing is perfect!

Cheers!

MCRU
22-01-2011, 12:07
You are welcome.

chris@panteg
22-01-2011, 13:26
Here is some info from Richard peachey (Vantage) regarding the earth tag position.


' The top right mounting screw does not make any contact with the ground return tracks on the main pcb and in fact the pad on the underside of the pcb stands isolated from any other track.. If other external power supply ground return connections have been made at this point, although they will read for continuity to ground, then the whole chassis ground plane will become the reference point and any extraneous interference sources will be introduced into the system (remember I mentioned there are high frequency signals floating around on the underside of the main pcb in close proximity to the chassis). It is entirely possible that if there were any contaminated surfaces (for example between pcb track / washer / screw) these could effectively form a type of junction enough to set up a circuit path with a very slight potential imbalance, enough to create a crude form of tuned circuit and create a source of interference which could result in additional noise injection into some of the reference signal paths '

chris@panteg
22-01-2011, 13:30
opps i should have put this in 1st


' Regarding your mention of the "earth tag" I have just had a look at one forum and there does appear to be a lot of waffle being spouted about the grounding point inside the Technics SL-1200MK2. Remember not to confuse "earth" and "ground" as these can have significantly different meanings and functions depending upon the circuit and implementation.

Although the "earth" could be said to refer to the main power supply specifically before rectification (no need to mention "safety earth" here as the deck is built to ISO double-insulated specification) as far as the SL-1200MK2 model goes there is no "earth" point per se inside the chassis. The "ground" can be referred to as the common return path after rectification with respect to the B-plus line and any audio or reference signal return paths. Therefore to all intents and purposes inside the chassis only "ground" should be referred to.

The layout of the PCB has been very carefully laid out despite looking very haphazard at first glance. There are in fact well over 36 critical "ground" points in the main circuit. So messing with these and cutting the circuit tracks willy-nilly are not recommended! If you look very carefully at the PCB tracks you will notice there is in effect a "star" pattern to the ground return tracks - originating at the negative terminal point of C1 (TP4 is the main ground return reference point that should be used for all measurements).

The ground tag that seems to get mentioned a lot is in fact only taking a tap via a short black wire from the ground return track on the underside of the PCB (as the underside of the PCB has a protective conformal coating in place) to the serrated washer on the topside of the PCB and allow the PCB securing screw at that point to ensure a ground return point through the chassis stand-off for reasons other than just a common B-plus line grounding point (there are high frequency signals floating around on the circuit tracks on the underside of the PCB in close proximity to a nice big juicy flat area of the chassis so hence the need to ensure continuity of ground through this post).

Use the enlarged solder pad at the negative terminal point of C1 for any external "ground" return connections.

Marco
23-01-2011, 08:58
Hi Chris,

Most interesting.... I'm sure Richard knows what he's talking about :)

However, as we discussed on the phone, I have a very simple policy when evaluating changes to my system, or individual components within it (such as my T/T), and that is, after thorough evaluation, if it sounds better - then it *is* better.

Others and I here are experienced enough listeners to know when a genuine improvement has been made, or when any change has simply resulted in 'different', but not better, or indeed worse. I trust my ears and my experience to judge effectively in these matters.

In that respect, moving the earth tag, as outlined earlier in this thread (which I've now had soldered directly to the board, as per Mike's recommendation) and upgrading the DC cable from the SR5 PSU to the T/T with Kimber PJB, has resulted in a significant sonic improvement, as indeed has, for example, fitting Mike New's high precision bearing and platter - or indeed the Paul Hynes SR5 PSU.

I understand where Richard is coming from, and share his concerns in some respects, but I don't believe that any of the modifications recommended here on AoS by highly qualified and experienced professionals are in any way detrimental to the performance of the SL-1200/1210; indeed experience of implementing them clearly shows that they aren't. I also consider the prices asked for the various products being sold to be entirely reasonable, given the bespoke nature of their design and overall high standards of quality.

However, I respect Richard's experience with Technics T/Ts, and feel sure that we could all learn from him, although it would be nice if he participated in discussions and became a valued member of our community, rather than making critical remarks from afar via a third party, as a result of not properly knowing the people behind the modifications he's criticising.

Furthermore, I think Richard should hear one of the very heavily modified Techies, such as Martin's or my own, and compare it to one of his, to judge things for himself. Personally, I would be very interested in his opinion, and indeed would value it.

So to Richard, I say (presuming he's reading this): come out of the shadows and join us, and add your valuable experience to the discussions taking place here, where you will be made most welcome! :cool:

AoS is not like the other audio forums you so detest ;)

Marco.

drrd
23-01-2011, 13:42
I'd be really interested if anybody has or could make some recordings they can post. Same arm, cartridge, everything, EXCEPT stock vs. modded PSU. Sorry, I know it might be a big ask but always worth a try :)

sonddek
23-01-2011, 22:56
Now I'm really confused. Should the ground lead from the Timestep be attached at bottom left, as recommended here by some, or top left, as recommended by Dave Cawley?

MCRU
23-01-2011, 23:09
Now I'm really confused. Should the ground lead from the Timestep be attached at bottom left, as recommended here by some, or top left, as recommended by Dave Cawley?

As its simply a screw holding it in place try both and see which sounds best?

chris@panteg
23-01-2011, 23:22
Now I'm really confused. Should the ground lead from the Timestep be attached at bottom left, as recommended here by some, or top left, as recommended by Dave Cawley?

Hi Richard

Richard looked over my deck and assured me the bottom left position is correct , so don't be alarmed ! The top right position can be a source of interference ,that's what he is saying :)

MartinT
23-01-2011, 23:24
Bottom-left looks the better place when inspecting the PCB tracks and sounds better, so that's the one to use.

MCRU
23-01-2011, 23:29
Where do all the so called "Technics" experts come from? One says top right, another says bottom left, I don't believe for a second that putting the earth tag on either will make a jot of difference to sound quality or should I re-phrase that to perceived sound quality as in the hi-fi world there are a lot of placebos.

I would make an educated guess that there are no more than 50 people in the UK with systems good enough to hear the differences moving that small wire will make, to the rest of us mere mortals it won't make a jot of difference will it, IMHO of course!

MartinT
23-01-2011, 23:31
David - try it and see for yourself!

chris@panteg
23-01-2011, 23:46
Hi David

I moved mine to the bottom left and to be honest i can't say for sure if its that much better , previously it was at top right for the last 2 years and no harm has come to my deck ! so the bottom line is if it sounds best to you then that's that .

The information Richard has provided is there for you to argue over if you wish , i moved mine to the bottom left after reading Paul and Martin's post anyway , and now Richard says the same bottom left is correct , what else is there to say .

Mike_New
24-01-2011, 00:26
Where do all the so called "Technics" experts come from? One says top right, another says bottom left, I don't believe for a second that putting the earth tag on either will make a jot of difference to sound quality or should I re-phrase that to perceived sound quality as in the hi-fi world there are a lot of placebos.I would make an educated guess that there are no more than 50 people in the UK with systems good enough to hear the differences moving that small wire will make, to the rest of us mere mortals it won't make a jot of difference will it, IMHO of course!

David,
I am afraid you are very wrong, which worries me.

I will state again, categorically, The focal, Zero-volt-return point for the PCB is the bottom left hand self-Tap screw point on the PCB. The other two locations have a square pad which is not connected to the common Zero Volt rail (PCB copper Track) on any of the many PCBs that I have examined. Further these two pads are surface varnished and therefore insulated.

If other people have connected the zero volt return lead of the Time Step; or any other power supply for that matter; to one of these incorrect terminals, then it is because they do not know what they are doing. or that they have been misinformed.


You will indeed get a 'working' zero volt return from the other two connection points. But as I have stated before this return connection will be via the metal of the chassis. which is not an ideal conductor. Why for goodness sake do people sell so called special cables if proper zero volt/earth connections are not recognized as being important!!! Further unless you have taken steps to remove the paint/varnish on the top of the mounting posts, then you will have an even less valid return path. Also the hardened self-tap screws are not designed for the maximum electrical conductivity!!!

It is accepted electronic engineering practice to ensure the integrety of zero-Volt return points and Earth connections in any piece of electronic equipment be it aerospace or a lowly lump of audio equipment.

MCRU
24-01-2011, 10:15
Mike, I wouldn't be worried as one person has had it connected to the top right for 2 years with no problems so I think some could be making a mountain out of a mole-hill I suspect.

Mike_New
24-01-2011, 10:43
Dave,
It is not a case of mountains out of mole hills, if he has had it connected that way for 2 years, then just maybe he has been missing out for two years on a better sound experience!!!
Rather, what upsets me is the plethora of uniformed advice, which does nothing for the the technically uniformed who wish to obtain the maximum out of the equipment they have spent their expendible income on.
The point is that it should never have been connected that way in the first place.

JazzBones
24-01-2011, 11:35
Dave,
It is not a case of mountains out of mole hills, if he has had it connected that way for 2 years, then just maybe he has been missing out for two years on a better sound experience!!!
Rather, what upsets me is the plethora of uniformed advice, which does nothing for the the technically uniformed who wish to obtain the maximum out of the equipment they have spent their expendible income on.
The point is that it should never have been connected that way in the first place.

Howz it going mate, I'm still smarting from the cricket :(, my old school 11 in WA could have done better :doh: I have had both the Cawley recommended connection point as per instructions with my TS HE+ PSU and latterly reconnecting to the lower left of circuit board where it shall remain coz I'm buggered if I want to faff anymore on this particular aspect. Hand on heart MikeO, I really could not detect any diff in worthwhile performance. The way I see it is that two similarly equipped decks, viz: MN bearing etc., a Shuggie arm collar but just the one Jelco 750D and cartridge swapped between the two decks should be used to discern the performance difference if any? I have a feeling that quite a number of people would be hard put to detect any performance difference one way or the other? From the safety angle there is only a correct and a wrong earth point ;) and I'm sticking with lower left.

Ron

DSJR
24-01-2011, 16:48
To many who are really "close" to their hobby, a small difference (if at all) can become magnified by extreme enthusiasm - been there and done it myself. No need for anyone to beat themselves up about it.

If lower left is deemed the "best" place, then so be it, but I must admit the comments made about the star earthing track on the board should be taken note of and used accordingly for lowest noise.

UV101
24-01-2011, 20:10
To many who are really "close" to their hobby, a small difference (if at all) can become magnified by extreme enthusiasm - been there and done it myself. No need for anyone to beat themselves up about it.

If lower left is deemed the "best" place, then so be it, but I must admit the comments made about the star earthing track on the board should be taken note of and used accordingly for lowest noise.

Agree with all of that! It is indeed "best practice" and poss one of those things that may or may not make a large difference but will definitely add up to something with other small best practice changes....

MCRU
28-01-2011, 20:58
Guys,
Is there anything else one can do to make these babies sound better, took dust cover off from underneath the platter, wired PSU up with Kimber PBJ cable and earthed to correct point, took out old PSU and mains board, Isonoe feet on, all lights dis-abled, apart from platter and bearing what else is there to do if anything? Ignore arm and cart as that is being investigated. Oh I forgot, fit better mains power lead to PSU and a better fuse (I shit you not it works) , any ideas peeps?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Turntable%20Pics/DSCF3769-1.jpg

Reid Malenfant
28-01-2011, 21:01
any ideas peeps?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Turntable%20Pics/DSCF3769-1.jpg
Try spinning a record on it :lolsign:

MCRU
28-01-2011, 21:04
:exactly::gig:

Ali Tait
28-01-2011, 21:18
Trans-Fi arm!

MCRU
28-01-2011, 21:22
Maybe but its so bloody ugly?

Ali Tait
28-01-2011, 21:44
Who cares? It's how it sounds that matters. Anyway, I think it looks pretty good.

MCRU
28-01-2011, 21:49
What about the Wife Acceptability Factor (WAF) that has to play a major part for a lot of us! Plus its too bloody expensive! Anyone got one they can lend me for a trial then?

Ali Tait
28-01-2011, 22:18
If you've already got the deck sitting in your living room, how much difference is the arm sitting on it going to make?

Expensive? Perhaps, but from the times I've heard it, It's a bargain at the price IMHO.

MCRU
28-01-2011, 22:20
If you've already got the deck sitting in your living room, how much difference is the arm sitting on it going to make?

Expensive? Perhaps, but from the times I've heard it, It's a bargain at the price IMHO.

It's in my workshop so I suppose it dunt matter what it looks like, fair point, would rather have an SME though

MartinT
28-01-2011, 22:42
The TecnoArm looks pretty good on it, David.

MCRU
28-01-2011, 22:46
The TecnoArm looks pretty good on it, David.

It's the biz mate, only problem the lid won't go on as the weight at the back sticks out too much!

Hopefully I have an SME lined up and intend to out the TecnoArm on my new Garrard 401 with slate plinth, what say you?

Alex_UK
29-01-2011, 00:02
It's the biz mate, only problem the lid won't go on as the weight at the back sticks out too much!

Hopefully I have an SME lined up and intend to out the TecnoArm on my new Garrard 401 with slate plinth, what say you?

Dunno what Martin says, but I say you've got it pretty bad, dude! I reckon any increased business you've had from joining here has been spent tenfold with our bad influences! :lol:

chris@panteg
29-01-2011, 00:11
Hi David , knock out a few more of those oyaide's and perhaps a Furutech or two and you will have an SME in no time ' me old china:)

REXTON
29-01-2011, 09:18
Guys,
Is there anything else one can do to make these babies sound better, took dust cover off from underneath the platter, wired PSU up with Kimber PBJ cable and earthed to correct point, took out old PSU and mains board, Isonoe feet on, all lights dis-abled, apart from platter and bearing what else is there to do if anything? Ignore arm and cart as that is being investigated. Oh I forgot, fit better mains power lead to PSU and a better fuse (I shit you not it works) , any ideas peeps?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Turntable%20Pics/DSCF3769-1.jpg

There's a couple of things that i'm trying but still in the process of determining if they have improved the sound of the 1210. The first thing i tried was to isolate the isonon feet even further with 6mm of sorbothane under each foot, i did notice an improvement but it was small. It was when I placed similar amounts of sorbothane under my amp and phonostage that the improvement improved even further still. I noticed that I could "see" further into the record, I could hear the musicians "cueing" up just before they started playing. The biggest surprise came when I listened to Iron Maiden's Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, I'd owned that record over 20 years and for the first time in thousands of plays I heard a passage of rain fall that I had never heard before! :eek::eek: You could try and have your technoarm terminated with Eichmann silver bullets rather than the silver coated Michell alternatives (i did this and noticed an increased edge and incision to the music, more visceral, if you like that sort of stuff). Have you tried mains filtration? I should imagine that this is right up your street?? I've made a "sorbothane" bed for the technics PCB to sit on, the idea being that it stops vibrations getting through to the bearing and the PCB itself. I've only just installed this so I have no idea if it works or not, probably not!!! Have you got the VTA, etc set up correctly on your Technoarm?? I looked at my system a few weeks ago and wondered how I could improve it, my answer was to listen to how my system sounded and then fine tune it. My next purchase is going to be the Adjust+ software, this is 249 euros but it works out a lot cheaper than a bearing, platter, power supply replacement. Hope these ideas stimulate you a little (oo-er missus)

MCRU
29-01-2011, 09:46
thanks for the comprehensive reply, I am concerned that the vta is not set properly, is there something apart from a ruler and the naked eye to use? also is there anything else on the pcb that can be taken off to improve things? ta

MartinT
29-01-2011, 10:11
Hopefully I have an SME lined up and intend to out the TecnoArm on my new Garrard 401 with slate plinth, what say you?

I'd say you've got it bad! I don't really know the 401 well enough to comment, having only heard them at shows.

As for VTA, it's best to experiment by ear. You can use a little bubble level on the headshell but dead level doesn't guarantee the best sound. Try it a little tail high and then tail low and you will hear which is best. The angle that the stylus is glued to the cantilever varies from sample to sample, so the best VTA will vary.

DSJR
29-01-2011, 12:18
REga style arms have always partnered Garrards well, but I don't know what a slate plinth will bring to the mix - I've usually recommended wood derived laminates such as the excellent Martin Bastin plinths of yore, or a paving slab supported in a very stout frame using chair webbing as support...

Stratmangler
29-01-2011, 12:24
Will's 401 sounds amazing in it's two tier slate plinth.
One of the best sounds at last year's Owston meet (although Lurcher's amp and Will's OBs had some small part to play ;) )

I've also heard another 401 in a single tier slate plinth, this time with a Michell Technoarm, and that too sounded superb.

DSJR
29-01-2011, 12:32
The 401 does sound superb, but it's the reduction of motor and drive related noise that's the key with these I found, otherwise it's all ballistic with no subtlety.

Stratmangler
29-01-2011, 12:41
Let's put it this way - there's no lack of subtlety with either of the slate plinthed 401s that I've heard.

Something I've not yet heard, and would like to, is Nick's (Lurcher) SP10, which has a slate plinth. Maybe some day.....

REXTON
29-01-2011, 12:57
the VTA was my concern when I had your configuration and I must say that I was also concerned that I didnt quite have the VTA set up properly, now I have the V I dont have those problems, if you go down the route of getting the 309 you'll also be able to change the VTA very easily. With regards to how to set the VTA i'm afraid it's trail and error which can be very frustrating but the main shaft of the tonearm needs to be perfectly horizontal which means your going to have to play with the counter weight at the rear of the technoarm. Make sure you have the correct counter weight applied to the tonearm as Michelle supply several, compare this with the mass of your cartridge. Most people adjust VTA simply by eye, or more commonly by ear. You'll have to adjust a little, then listen, adjust a little more, listen again etc etc. Thats why I want the Adjust+ software it should "in theory" enable correct VTA setup. Your TT looks the dogs bollocks mate :respect:

Clive
29-01-2011, 12:57
I don't know what a slate plinth will bring to the mix - I've usually recommended wood derived laminates such as the excellent Martin Bastin plinths of yore,
I've experimented a lot with a 301 with many, many variations of CLD plinths as well as skeletal. It was a lot of work over a year. I got a sound that was pretty good. Then I dropped the 301 into a slate plinth. It was way better, I wish I'd started from that point and saved myself a year's work.

Ali Tait
29-01-2011, 14:07
Let's put it this way - there's no lack of subtlety with either of the slate plinthed 401s that I've heard.

Something I've not yet heard, and would like to, is Nick's (Lurcher) SP10, which has a slate plinth. Maybe some day.....

I've heard Nick's deck before and after the slate plinth. Sounded great before, but the slate plinth took it to a whole new level. Stunning is the word I think.

MCRU
29-01-2011, 14:59
I am going to get an mdf plinth just to get it up and running and then a slate one later, I am too far behind with orders to carry on faffing about with TT's!

The 401 looks practically brand new underneath, all the metal is pristine in condition.

Johan
03-10-2012, 16:38
Btw, I've just taken a few new shots of the Techie - this time off of the rack, after fitting the new Oyaide PA-2075 DR tonearm cable to the Jelco:
Marco.

An old thread :-)
But may I know whether the Oyaide PA-2075 DR cable is with straight or 90 ° connector ??

Gr. Johan

kininigin
03-10-2012, 17:33
It has a straight connector.

Johan
03-10-2012, 18:17
It has a straight connector.

Thank you. I'm interrested in the same combination. sl1200 , Jelco 750 , Oyaide 2075............Therefore, the question.

Gr. Johan

Johan
10-10-2012, 11:43
Thank you. I'm interrested in the same combination. sl1200 , Jelco 750 , Oyaide 2075............Therefore, the question.

Gr. Johan

And the next question. :scratch:

Can you use with this combination a Zu103 cartridge ?
Or is the Zu too heavy for the 750 and you're better with a Denon 103R??

Gr. Johan

kininigin
10-10-2012, 14:17
Should be an ideal match,as far as i can tell.You may have to buy the heavier counter weight though!!

Johan
10-10-2012, 14:45
Should be an ideal match,as far as i can tell.You may have to buy the heavier counter weight though!!

ok thanks, again.:)

A good start I think. Mike New Bearing ordered , next month a jelco750 and Oyiade 2075DR cable and perhaps the Zu cartridge.............. I still consider the Oyaide headshell HSTF.

Gr. Johan

kininigin
10-10-2012, 14:55
With those items in place,you will have a very fine deck imo.

I'm considering the Denon cart myself next year,so will be interested in your findings,as your deck will be virtually the same as mine!!

Johan
10-10-2012, 15:36
With those items in place.........

...........I have an empty wallet.