I think I killed my brand new Croft Series 7 :(

[beadlesabout]

Hi Folks,

My Croft Series 7 arrived today to go with my Croft RIAA and Croft 25 Line Only (Zero Gain).

It was all sounding lovely using a digital source when I decided to switch to vinyl.

Perhaps I didn’t do things in the right order, but I switched the 25 to Phono (another line in on my 25) and turned on the RIAA. The RIAA doesn’t have a power on delay and immediately caused crackling and popping out of both speakers. After that, no sound from the Series 7 at all and verified that other power amps work fine. So clearly the 7 is bust although it might be a fault with the RIAA or 25 that caused it.

I’ve swapped valves in the 7 and no joy still.

Any ideas? I’ve emailed Glenn and Adrian at Audio Flair (Adrian is brilliant) but I am impatient for some opinions as my weekend of listening is now spoiled, unfortunately.

Thanks all.

[brian2957]

Check the fuses at the back Alfie . I did something similar to mine and I had blown one ( or more ? ) of the fuses .

[beadlesabout]

Thanks, I’ll check them.

Can it really be true that turning on the RIAA will always blow a fuse? There was often a little pop here and there when the RIAA and 25 were feeding a Quad 303 but never any damage done.

[brian2957]

Sorry don't know the answer to that question .I would check the fuses first though .

[Made in 1968]

Sorry to hear this. I see you are in Sheff, Doesnt everyone have Linn/Naim/Rega in Sheffield :D

[beadlesabout]

Ha, I live less than a mile from the reason you say that. Plenty of reasons I went with Croft, I’m not writing it off yet by any means.

Not about to spend 5k on a system that doesn’t sound as good!

[hifi_dave]

Thanks, I’ll check them.

Can it really be true that turning on the RIAA will always blow a fuse? There was often a little pop here and there when the RIAA and 25 were feeding a Quad 303 but never any damage done.

No, you can switch inputs as you wish. I always turn down the volume when I do that or mute, as I do with any amp, to avoid noises.

Crofts are pretty well bullet proof, so check the fuses on rear.

[anthonyTD]

I would just wait and see what Glenn come's back with, there will undoubtably be a rational explanation, the Croft series is know to be pretty reliable, and i doubt very much that it is an inherent design fault.
A...

[Macca]

I had the same issue when I had a Series 7. It will be a fuse needs replacing that's all. You do need to be careful about what order you switch them on to avoid it happening again.

[Jazid]

Just a thought, nothing to base this on : It is possible if the RIAA is capacitor coupled that the cap is failing allowing DC through and this is what has blown the amp if it doesn't have a cap coupled input. I'm pretty certain the 303 does have a cap on the input which would protect it. I'd be inclined to get it serviced or at least to measure DC across the output terminals of the RIAA during startup. Any cheap meter will do for this, it shouldn't show anything beyond a small momentary blip.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[beadlesabout]

Thanks everyone.

I tested the fuses on the 7 and they are indeed blown. According to Glenn it will be fine when they’re replaced.

He says I should give the RIAA a 30 second head start. In my opinion that means it should have a relay circuit like the 25 does. He says he can fit one so I’ll look into that.

This isn’t a HiFi system I want my friends and family to be scared of breaking so some added protection will help.

[Lawrence001]

Rule of thumb with all equipment, switch on source first to power amp last. Usually not an issue with solid state but often is with valves due mainly to the DC issue highlighted above.

TBH it really surprises me when hifi mates don't do it, or ask me which order to do it in. It's the first thing you need to know.

[Made in 1968]

..

[Haselsh1]

This a typical Example of omitting things in a design that should be there anyway. which basically leads to unreliability as you have encountered for the sake of what? Switching things on in order to avoid such things happening is stupid imho.

I once came to blows with someone over an Onix amplifier i had because it had Relays in the circuit.. it was, according to him a piece of shit..

:thumbsup:

[Jimbo]

Rule of thumb with all equipment, switch on source first to power amp last. Usually not an issue with solid state but often is with valves due mainly to the DC issue highlighted above.

TBH it really surprises me when hifi mates don't do it, or ask me which order to do it in. It's the first thing you need to know.

Just to add, switch off power amp first, then preamp.

[Spectral Morn]

An ex dealer, who did Croft, kept demo units of the full range and had significant reliability issues with his demo stock, I think by the end of his doing them he had about 45% reliability issues, pre, powers, phono stage. In my view this is way too high.

Way too hair shirt and I agree that putting safety features in place sensible, leaving them out way too risky.

Of course Croft have their worshippers, followers and Glenn can do no wrong people, and I am not saying they don’t sound good, but such a high failure rate among demo stock, isn’t good and the op should not be having this experience and in all my use of valve gear I have never had such problems, but I don’t own Croft, and nor would I.

Yes sources first, phono, pre then power switch on and that in reverse is the way things should be done, but having to do this as an absolute because gear is that fragile, really isn’t great.

[dowser]

My mid/late 80s Croft Micro II was serviced by Glenn when I bought it in 2007, was subsequently modified by me and has been in continuous service since with zero problems. If they were unreliable you would see far more faulty ones than you do for sale, and resale price would be much lower!

Who is the ex dealer?

[hifi_dave]

This is getting way out of hand. I have been selling Croft products since the early 80s and it has always been amongst the most reliable equipment I have stocked. This latest 25 + 7 range has been with me for approx 12 years and in all that time I haven't had a single fault apart from a couple of fuses and a noisy valve. That's pretty good going and I do sell a lot.

What has happened is that the OP has switched on the three items in the wrong order and in doing so you would expect problems as you might with any system. Always switch on source first, then pre and then power. If the pre and power are working and then the RIAA source is switched on, the noises generated can cause a problem, in this case just a blown fuse. Replace that and job done.

[beadlesabout]

In fairness to Croft, I’m not sure this is a reliability issue as Glenn expected it to happen. There’s no permanent damage and it will be fine once the fuses are replaced. It’s just not very user friendly and I’ll fix that by arranging for a relay to be fitted to the RIAA.

I’ve never heard of reliability issues with recent Croft stuff and the fact the same models have been in production for years means he’s had plenty of practice.

[beadlesabout]

Dave, I wrote the message above before seeing yours. I’m not against Croft in any way.

[southall-1998_mk2]

I'd never waste my money on anything built by Glenn Croft.

S.

[hifi_dave]

Dave, I wrote the message above before seeing yours. I’m not against Croft in any way.

One of the reasons I have sold Croft for almost 40 years is that it is very reliable. No sense in stocking gear that's always going wrong and I could give names of brands which are like that.

[hifi_dave]

I'd never waste my money on anything built by Glenn Croft.

S.

And how many Croft items have you heard or owned ?

[southall-1998_mk2]

And how many Croft items have you heard or owned ?

For your information, many! Always sounded 'meh' to my ears.

S.

[Jimbo]

An ex dealer, who did Croft, kept demo units of the full range and had significant reliability issues with his demo stock, I think by the end of his doing them he had about 45% reliability issues, pre, powers, phono stage. In my view this is way too high.

Way too hair shirt and I agree that putting safety features in place sensible, leaving them out way too risky.

Of course Croft have their worshippers, followers and Glenn can do no wrong people, and I am not saying they don’t sound good, but such a high failure rate among demo stock, isn’t good and the op should not be having this experience and in all my use of valve gear I have never had such problems, but I don’t own Croft, and nor would I.

Yes sources first, phono, pre then power switch on and that in reverse is the way things should be done, but having to do this as an absolute because gear is that fragile, really isn’t great.

45% - Really??

[DSJR]

For your information, many! Always sounded 'meh' to my ears.

S.

If a Croft sounds 'Meh' then it's either tired valves or a very badly matched system in my experience. Apart from some of the slightly softer toned original 80's stuff (Series 4 power amps usually) which still let the music details through, I don't remember any of his products sounding 'meh' and *certainly not* the current models, which sound quite lively to me, even into older Harbeths............

To the OP, if Glenn can fit a delay or soft-start feature into the phono stage with no sonic penalty, I'd recommend suggesting he fits it as routine in production, as who knows who's going to own the stuff in the future and not everyone knows what to do in terms of using the stuff.

[Spectral Morn]

This is getting way out of hand. I have been selling Croft products since the early 80s and it has always been amongst the most reliable equipment I have stocked. This latest 25 + 7 range has been with me for approx 12 years and in all that time I haven't had a single fault apart from a couple of fuses and a noisy valve. That's pretty good going and I do sell a lot.

What has happened is that the OP has switched on the three items in the wrong order and in doing so you would expect problems as you might with any system. Always switch on source first, then pre and then power. If the pre and power are working and then the RIAA source is switched on, the noises generated can cause a problem, in this case just a blown fuse. Replace that and job done.

I am relaying true information and not making things up. The phono stage even came faulty out of the box, I was there, it was a simple fault but it was faulty. One item fine Glenn distracted and made a mistake, but a number of items, nope poor.

I get it your sell his stuff and others worship his gear, but what I have said is true and can be proved. So no libel or defamation only cold facts.

[Spectral Morn]

45% - Really??

Yes.

Series 7 pre, two stereo power, and a phono stage, out of the demo stock. I said to the dealer he should send the whole lot back, but he took another path. I felt crap about this as when he had been looking for brands I mentioned Croft as one to look at. He was ok about it, I felt very embarrassed.

[Jimbo]

I am relaying true information and not making things up. The phono stage even came faulty out of the box, I was there, it was a simple fault but it was faulty. One item fine Glenn distracted and made a mistake, but a number of items, nope poor.

I get it your sell his stuff and others worship his gear, but what I have said is true and can be proved. So no libel or defamation only cold facts.

Lets hear the proof then from this dealer rather than hearsay from you.

[Spectral Morn]

Dave, I wrote the message above before seeing yours. I’m not against Croft in any way.

I am not either, but what happened to you should not have and Glenn knowing it could have is crazy.

[Jimbo]

Yes.

Series 7 pre, two stereo power, and a phono stage, out of the demo stock. I said to the dealer he should send the whole lot back, but he took another path. I felt crap about this as when he had been looking for brands I mentioned Croft as one to look at. He was ok about it, I felt very embarrassed.

There is no such thing as a Series 7 pre?

[Spectral Morn]

Lets hear the proof then from this dealer rather than hearsay from you.

Its fact, not hearsay and they are no longer in the trade having stopped dealing a few years ago. So you are calling me a liar, I was there when the phono stage, from that demo stock was faulty out of the box. I have said this stuff before and I don’t lie.

[Jimbo]

Its fact, not hearsay and they are no longer in the trade having stopped dealing a few years ago. So you are calling me a liar, I was there when the phono stage, from that demo stock was faulty out of the box. I have said this stuff before and I don’t lie.

You are making accusations and you offered proof!

[Spectral Morn]

There is no such thing as a Series 7 pre?


Series 25 pre.

[Spectral Morn]

You are making accusations and you offered proof!


I am offering facts. You want to call me a liar, be careful I will and can prove It in in court. So bring it on if you really want to.

[Jimbo]

Is there a problem at AOS?

[Spectral Morn]

Is there a problem at AOS?

Yes you calling me a liar. I honestly reported facts, you say you don’t believe me and I should prove it. I can. I don’t like being called a liar.

An ex dealer, who did Croft had way too many of his demo items go faulty, one of which was faulty in front of me. I believe the dealer, who while no longer in the trade I am still friends with. Those are facts. He rather foolishly continued to have Croft on his books till he closed his doors a few years ago. I would have sent the lot back if I had been in his shoes. He was way too nice at times.

[southall-1998_mk2]

If a Croft sounds 'Meh' then it's either tired valves or a very badly matched system in my experience. Apart from some of the slightly softer toned original 80's stuff (Series 4 power amps usually) which still let the music details through, I don't remember any of his products sounding 'meh' and *certainly not* the current models, which sound quite lively to me, even into older Harbeths............

To the OP, if Glenn can fit a delay or soft-start feature into the phono stage with no sonic penalty, I'd recommend suggesting he fits it as routine in production, as who knows who's going to own the stuff in the future and not everyone knows what to do in terms of using the stuff.

Like I said before, I've heard many Croft gear! Sounded below average to my ears! That's what my ears/brain tells me, and I greatly trust my organs. Not you or anyone else.

S.

[Marco]

Guys, we need to calm down here. Firstly, Neil is most certainly NOT a liar, let there be no mistake about that, and neither is Jim. In the past (I can't comment about new stuff, as I've little experience of it) Croft gear had problems with reliability, and in some cases, rather flaky construction. It happened. That's a fact, as I've experienced it myself.

However, it'd avoid putting a percentage on it, as it's impossible to be accurate.

That said, over the years, every manufacturer has had similar problems with their equipment. No-one produces faultless, perfectly performing equipment all the time, especially when it's a one-man band type of business, as everything is built by hand, not automated by computers, and issues will occur.

To my knowledge, in such circumstances, Glenn will always sort things out politely, quickly and efficiently, and never 'go quiet' and leave anyone with faulty kit, unlike some other small companies I've known of, so you'll never be left in the lurch. Glenn is very focussed on customer service. Quite simply, you have to be doing something right (and far more right than wrong) to have been trading successfully in this industry for, what, over 40 years? And in that time have amassed many thousands of happy customers all over the world.

But of course, no-one is perfect. All I can say though is that any Croft gear I've owned has performed flawlessly and never failed to sound superb, and Glenn has always been a pleasure to deal with; nothing has ever been too much bother - and if there were a 1000 more Glenn Crofts in today's hi-fi industry, building great value for money, superb sounding kit, it would be in a far better state than it is!

I hope Alfie manages to get his issue sorted, which I'm sure he will:cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

If a Croft sounds 'Meh' then it's either tired valves or a very badly matched system in my experience. Apart from some of the slightly softer toned original 80's stuff (Series 4 power amps usually) which still let the music details through, I don't remember any of his products sounding 'meh' and *certainly not* the current models, which sound quite lively to me, even into older Harbeths............

To the OP, if Glenn can fit a delay or soft-start feature into the phono stage with no sonic penalty, I'd recommend suggesting he fits it as routine in production, as who knows who's going to own the stuff in the future and not everyone knows what to do in terms of using the stuff.

Hi Dave,

Nice to see you checking in again and hope you're well? Btw, I got the email you sent months ago (before or around RD's passing), and meant to reply but forgot, so apologies for that. I wasn't ignoring you, mate!:)

As for Croft gear, we're singing from the same hymn sheet, but if someone thinks it sounds "meh" then they're entitled to their opinion. There could be a whole host of reasons for that, of course, notwithstanding the fact that the sound just wasn't to their taste, but some stuff just doesn't perform to its capabilities in some systems [the old synergy thing], and that can be especially true of amps and their relationship with the partnering speakers.

That's always worth bearing in mind, and not just automatically blaming the kit in question.

Marco.

[Audio Al]

:hmm: I have owned several Croft items and never had a problem with any of them , currently have a 25R :)

[cjm123]

I have owned an original 1982 Super Micro, Vitale, Series 4, Micro 25 Basic, Series 7 and now my current Micro 25 and at the risk of tempting fate I have never had a fault....not bad eh over 38 years?..Oh and I have not heard anything that sounds better or even close for the money nor indeed for considerably more.

Chris

[hifi_dave]

In my close on 40years of selling Croft, I can only recall a couple of 'proper' faults, way back, decades ago, with the Series 5 power-amp and a batch of faulty valve sockets. Glenn exchanged the faulty units and all was well.

With this latest range of 25 pres and 7 power-amps, I still haven't had a fault in the 12 years or so it has been available and I do sell a lot of Croft. I don't know of any company with a better track record and is one of the many reasons I have stocked Croft for so long.

[beadlesabout]

It's a shame the thread turned out this way as I am pro croft.

Firstly, what happened was an expected event. I now know how to avoid it. I also know that if I am uncomfortable with avoiding it manually, Glenn will fit a relay circuit. He has offered to do this FOC.

He also serviced a previous Croft integrated I had and upgraded the power supply. It was serviced as a precaution as it was second hand (there was nothing wrong with it). Again, he didn't ask for any money and quite frankly I feel guilty about it!

Outside of this thread I can't say I've come across any reliability concerns, and quite right too, there is so little to go wrong with such a beautifully simple circuit and no PCBs. I'm sure anyone could service one with a little understanding.

On top of all that, it's UK manufacturing on a small scale for a reasonable price. That is worth a lot to me. And it sounds great.

Given Glenn's generosity and excellent after sales support, I would hate for this thread to turn anyone off his products, so this post is the next best thing to deleting this thread, which I don't think I can do.

[struth]

Think there has been plenty positives too. You can't please everyone, such is life.

[Spectral Morn]

I reported honestly a problem a dealer (now no longer one) had with demo units he got from Glenn, this was around 2012, so current designs. He had faulty 7 series power amplifiers (more than one), a 25 pre (I had forgotten model number so wrote series 7 as its contemporary with those) + phono stage. The phono stage was faulty out of the box, would not power up. I was there saw it in person, I was thinking about writing about it, but based on that and the other problems I chose not to.

This ex dealer had asked me in passing if I thought there were any brands he should look at, I suggested Croft as I was aware there was a following and the issues of the early days and mid period should no longer be a factor. He took the brand on and the demo stock, which he brought in to represent the brand had a crazy number of issues, either out of the box right away or after being on display. I felt extremely embarrassed over this, and expressed the opinion that if this was representative of Croft then he should send them all back and not represent the brand. That is what I would have done.

This is fact, and I don't print this here lightly, or casually and if anyone wants to challenge me legally to prove it I can, with no issue whatsoever.

I was called a liar on this thread (implication of what was said) and that was very upsetting as I don't lie, and certainly do not publish falsehoods on here or anywhere else. What I wrote was not hearsay, or guess work or anything else but 100% take to the bank fact.

I am not happy being called a liar on this thread.

[Marco]

Indeed, Neil, although I can't find who was guilty of directly calling you that... Could you quote the relevant post please, as the person responsible should apologise. Just because someone doesn't like hearing something, as it's critical of the brand that they like and/or own, doesn't excuse them from calling you a liar, as I have no doubt whatsoever that what you're saying is true.

As for deleting stuff (sorry, Alfie), that's not going to happen, as we don't practice censorship on AoS, or 'protect' anyone or any company from justified constructive criticism, Croft or otherwise, much as I love the company and its equipment, and have a massive amount of respect for Glenn.

Therefore, threads such as this perform a valuable service, as far as highlighting any problems that exist, even if Croft equipment currently suffers from no such issues, and so any reasonable manufacturer, Croft included, who values customer feedback and their good reputation, would be glad of being made aware of it:cool:

Marco.

[IHP]

Indeed, Neil, although I can't find who was guilty of directly calling you that... Could you quote the relevant post please, as the person responsible should apologise.

Marco.

Or alternatively those concerned could consider that falling out on the internet about Hi-Fi is, well, a little bit silly really :).

[Stryder5]

+1 ^^^^

Gary



Or alternatively those concerned could consider that falling out on the internet about Hi-Fi is, well, a little bit silly really :).