View Full Version : Direct selling and/or high street selling
The Grand Wazoo
24-06-2010, 16:12
I been reading a post on Analogue Art and the thread stated to look at direct selling
First of all I still think there is room for both the Traditional Hifi Dealer and people who sell direct. But if a look at my equipment none of it came from a traditional high street dealer
I think with rent costs etc it is very hard to maintain the traditional high street models, a lot of dealers now operate from home or have premises that are not based in big cities.
I think a good dealer is still a good way to get equipment but just wondering what people think around different trade models
{NB: this post (and thread topic) was originally written and started by John, not Chris, but got mixed up in the thread transferral from Analogue Art - my apologies go to both parties concerned!}
Excellent idea for a thread, John.
I think it might show how much 'slurp' sometimes occurs in the industry and the premium price one thus often pays for an 'audiophile badge'.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 17:06
{Edit: please bear in mind that some posts here have been moved from this discussion in Analogue Art: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6808 ...where the Jelco SA-750D and Ortofon TA-100 were being compared as almost identical tonearms, but with rather different price tags - Marco}
If Jeleco is sold via one dealer not a distributor/dealer chain/network, but a dealer who imports him/herself ? If so then that explains the price difference as Henley Designs (distributor)who supply the Ortofon arm, ergo two margins distributor and dealer.
You remember how it works Marco having been in the trade once.
If not then I agree on the face of it the difference in price is large but not having heard the two arms I can't claim one is better than the other.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 17:43
Do jelco make it for ortophon?
Does it sound different - has anyone heard it?
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 17:48
Do jelco make it for ortophon?
Does it sound different - has anyone heard it?
The first question, answer Yes.
Second question, I don't know.
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
If Jeleco is sold via one dealer not a distributor/dealer chain/network, but a dealer who imports him/herself ? If so then that explains the price difference as Henley Designs (distributor)who supply the Ortofon arm, ergo two margins distributor and dealer.
You remember how it works Marco having been in the trade once.
I don't dispute any of that, dude, but I'm only interested in paying for out-and-out audio performance, not distributor and/or dealer margins, so if I get the opportunity to lose the overheads and buy virtually an almost identical tonearm without the 'audiophile badge' for half the price, then that is of course what I'll do - and recommend others to do, too! :)
One would be a fool to do anything else.
Hi Hamish,
Do jelco make it for ortophon?
Does it sound different - has anyone heard it?
I have it on very good authority that Jelco do in fact make tonearms for Ortofon, and indeed for a number of other 'hi-end' manufacturers.
As for the two tonearms in question sounding different from each other or not, of course you won't know unless you listened to them side-by-side on the same deck in the same system, but let's just say that a fairly good educated guess says that they're likely to sound at least very alike, as their physical similarity is such that the existence of any major sonic differences is highly unlikely.
Perhaps someone should contact Henley and find out (that is if they'll tell you the truth)? Or alternatively, I could take my deck, arm and SPU cartridge to my nearest Ortofon dealer and arrange a demo against the TA-100 - if they'd be willing to do such a thing.......
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 18:04
It's obviously slightly different though... So either jelco make it differently to the 750 or ortophon change it...
I wonder if it is better... If your using an ortophon cart marco, it could be the last peice of the puzzle ... Then surly it would be worth £600 more ...
The finish looks different.. Might it not be a high grade metal that resonates differently or some shit...
This subject is one that interests me and I always forget to start a thread...
I know that there is possibly a large amount of profiteering in hifi manufacture... But my trusting nature always likes to at least explor the possibility that im not being ripped off...
Take my amp... Or at least what it used to be... A puresound a30 ... As a punter of the street with no knowledge of hifi... If I bought an a30 and then saw a bewitch 6550 on eBay for a quarter of the price I'd be gutted... But as I have a bit more knowledge (and from what I have been told) the reality is they are very different beasts... Despite being made by the same company ...
Could this not be the case with these 2 arms?
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 18:09
And before anyone tells me about better valves and transformers etc... Inknow all that... What I don't know about is machining tolerances and grades of matal (other than that calling somthing simply "steel" for eg doesn't touch the surface of what it is - my mate the car making guy has told me about all the differnt types of metal he uses ... At length... Or though inconfess i wasn't really listening)
Jelco make arms for Ortofon, who take their cut. These arms are then passed along to distributers in various countries, who take their cut too, the dealer takes the final slurp... - and this could well triple the selling price after everyone's finished.
I suspect that Jelco's own arms are bought in small batches directly from the factory and sold at negligible profit on ebay and elsewhere. Only the person bringing them in makes a small (?) profit..
Simple, I think...:)
Spot on - at least you've got something right tonight!! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
P.S. I remember a certain cartridge manufacturer who claimed that the packaging cost more than the cartridge itself. the ex-factory deals we were offered were incredible too...
Hamish, the "slurp" in what remains of this industry is frightening and still far more than needed to make a living IMO.
It's obviously slightly different though... So either jelco make it differently to the 750 or ortophon change it...
I wonder if it is better... If your using an ortophon cart marco, it could be the last peice of the puzzle ... Then surly it would be worth £600 more ...
The finish looks different.. Might it not be a high grade metal that resonates differently or some shit...
This subject is one that interests me and I always forget to start a thread...
I know that there is possibly a large amount of profiteering in hifi manufacture... But my trusting nature always likes to at least explor the possibility that im not being ripped off...
Take my amp... Or at least what it used to be... A puresound a30 ... As a punter of the street with no knowledge of hifi... If I bought an a30 and then saw a bewitch 6550 on eBay for a quarter of the price I'd be gutted... But as I have a bit more knowledge (and from what I have been told) the reality is they are very different beasts... Despite being made by the same company ...
Could this not be the case with these 2 arms?
Hamish,
I wouldn't argue with any of that, mate, but let's just say that I'm 'highly sceptical' of there being any major sonic difference between the two arms that to my ears would justify paying double the price for the 'Ortofon' :)
However, regardless of that, no-one is being ripped off, because just as Neil says, the extra cost of the Ortofon is legitimately made up from importer and dealer margins, although where an end user can avoid paying such costs, then of course they will do so! :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 18:38
Be interesting to know for sure...
Dave, I'm sure you have a point.... I have seen the margins on the kit we sell... ...
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 18:50
Jelco make arms for Ortofon, who take their cut. These arms are then passed along to distributers in various countries, who take their cut too, the dealer takes the final slurp... - and this could well triple the selling price after everyone's finished.
I suspect that Jelco's own arms are bought in small batches directly from the factory and sold at negligible profit on ebay and elsewhere. Only the person bringing them in makes a small (?) profit..
Simple, I think...:)
Guys I am frankly sick of reading this sort of thing. Slurp..... How do you think the whole world works, everyone in a chain makes a profit its how they keep in business and yes it adds up but that is life. So some make excessive profit in the world ?yes they do. Is it fair ? no, but without knowing all the facts in the case of these two arms...well I am sorry but any comments such as have been said are, well useless and creates a possibly entirely unwarranted besmirching of what may well be an excellent arm, priced right.
Manufacturer Profit, Distribution profit, retailer profit. Its in everything even the material Marco uses for making his picture frames.
You know I am also tired of reading about products being dished when no one has heard them, and I am sorry but educated guesses don't always cut it either. There is imho also no substitute for actually listening. The only opinion of value is that of someone who has heard the two arms. If not anything else is worthless guess work, so how can anyone say that one is better or not or worth its money or not. I can't nor would I.
Probably just made myself really unpopular but what I just said needed saying imho.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 18:55
Hamish,
I wouldn't argue with any of that, mate, but let's just say that I'm 'highly sceptical' of there being any major sonic difference between the two arms that to my ears would justify paying double the price for the 'Ortofon' :)
However, regardless of that, no-one is being ripped off, because just as Neil says, the extra cost of the Ortofon is legitimately made up from importer and dealer margins, although where an end user can avoid paying such costs, then of course they will do so! :cool:
Marco.
Had not seen this comment when I made my last post....
Regards D S D L
I detect some significant 'slurping' from middle men going on here.... Basically, you can buy two Jelcos for the price of an 'Ortofon'!
Did you miss that bit too? :eyebrows:
Sorry, Neil. It just appeared that you were singling out Dave in your previous post. ;)
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 19:01
Did you miss that bit too? :eyebrows:
No the comment was aimed at anyone who's feet the shoe would fit, but Dave does come across quite a bit recently as the Victor Meldrew of audio.
Regards D S D L
.... I have seen the margins on the kit we sell... ...
Had an amp on home dem from a major retail chain not long ago, amp cost £2k, they left the 'inter branch' invoice in the box by mistake, dealer mark up was over 100%:eek:.
Didn't buy it.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 19:09
Had an amp on home dem from a major retail chain not long ago, amp cost £2k, they left the 'inter branch' invoice in the box by mistake, dealer mark up was over 100%:eek:.
Didn't buy it.
To vague, name names. Never in all my years in retail was that ever the case. Offer a qualification please.
Regards D S D L
Neil, that's fair comment. You're entitled to your opinion, as we are to ours.
All I'm saying is that, in my opinion there appears to be little in the design of the 'Ortofon TA-100', which justifies its significant price premium over the Jelco SA-750 - and I'm entitled to that opinion :)
There are many examples of 'ridiculous mark-ups' occurring in the industry. Remember the Goldmund CDP debacle, which was simply a glorified Pioneer?
And I have witnessed with my own eyes a similar thing happening at E.A.R with their 'Acute' CDPs and their rather, erm, 'intimate internal resemblence' with Arcam units, which cost a mere fraction of the price ;)
Relax, it happens, and thus deserves to be exposed... AOS will always do that, as ridiculously marked-up 'badge-fi' is a particular bug bear of mine!
Marco.
......but Dave does come across quite a bit recently as the Victor Meldrew of audio.
:D :lolsign: :D
Maybe I do Neil, but I'm not alone.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 19:53
Neil, that's fair comment. You're entitled to your opinion, as we are to ours.
All I'm saying is that, in my opinion there appears to be little in the design of the 'Ortofon TA-100', which justifies its significant price premium over the Jelco SA-750 - and I'm entitled to that opinion :)
There are many examples of 'ridiculous mark-ups' occurring in the industry. Remember the Goldmund CDP debacle, which was simply a glorified Pioneer?
And I have witnessed with my own eyes a similar thing happening at E.A.R with their 'Acute' CDPs and their rather, erm, 'intimate internal resemblence' with Arcam units, which cost a mere fraction of the price ;)
Relax, it happens, and thus deserves to be exposed... AOS will always do that, as heavily marked-up 'badge-fi' is a particular bug bear of mine!
Marco.
I have never said that there are not examples of it having happened though claims of 100% mark up with out qualification paints a picture that is not accurate.
It is accuracy that I want here and balance. Dave and others are painting an inaccurate picture by being general. Generalizations are useless in discussions and lead to everyone being tarred with the same brush, which imho is unfair in the extreme.
Didn't know about Goldmund but if EAR has to buy complete CD players, in order to do theirs, imagine how much that might cost to do and EAR don't have big scale economies either. I once ordered a phono stage from them and was given a waiting time of 6 weeks. It was being built for me, not taken from stock; I suspect but don't know that this may be the case with the Acurate CD player as well.
Lets just have balance in this debate that is all I ask for.
Regards D S D L
Neil, did you know Ortofon before Henley took 'em on? HiFi dave and I did and I took advantage of their very generous cartridge-at-factory-cost offer at the time. The way their prices have sky-rocketed in the intervening years does make me wonder though.
OK?
Put it this way sir, if my wages had tripled in the last two decades, I'd be banging on Anthony TD's door demanding one of his ampsNOW !!!!!.....
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 20:05
Neil, did you know Ortofon before Henley took 'em on? HiFi dave and I did and I took advantage of their very generous cartridge-at-factory-cost offer at the time. The way their prices have sky-rocketed in the intervening years does make me wonder though.
OK?
Just when they took over but from the beginning back in the early 90's. With respect though that was a very long time ago production runs have dropped off since then and material costs have sky rocketed.
The problem is, by only being vague and general you and others are helping to paint a picture which is imho deeply unfair and in accurate.
Having been out of things now for a year and a half I can only say what things were like back then and Ortofon's margin was not that wonderful about average. I won't say what, simply because I can't remember exactly and I like to be accurate.
Regards Neil
I managed to get a Kontra B at less than half retail price from Henley a few years ago. A great deal for me but it says something about margins too.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 20:55
I managed to get a Kontra B at less than half retail price from Henley a few years ago. A great deal for me but it says something about margins too.
Not without knowing more of the circumstances. From time to time stock has to be moved on at either a loss or a break-even price. Henley may have passed on their margin and as they normally don't sell to the public you were not paying the dealers margin too; hence your deal.
I just don't understand why your all happy to buy from big supermarkets and not question their prices and how they are arrived at or other things we buy in life. It seems to me the only difference here is that the prices are higher.
It is only fair that dealers/distributors make a profit to keep them in a business, in jobs, feed the family, etc; at the end of the day they are human beings and deserve to make a living.
Are there hoods and bad guys out their in the audio world ? Most likely yes, as there is in all walks of life, but the picture of rip off audio world is being overstated here in my opinion. If you want high performance for low money learn electronics design your own gear and build it yourself or buy fairly current S/H gear (most will loose half of its value after a year). The other option is buy classic vintage gear, but the cost of it keeps going up like antiques each year.
Regards D S D L
Not without knowing more of the circumstances. From time to time stock has to be moved on at either a loss or a break-even price. Henley may have passed on their margin and as they normally don't sell to the public you were not paying the dealers margin too; hence your deal.
I just don't understand why your all happy to buy from big supermarkets and not question their prices and how they are arrived at or other things we buy in life. It seems to me the only difference here is that the prices are higher.
It is only fair that dealers/distributors make a profit to keep them in a business, in jobs, feed the family, etc; at the end of the day they are human beings and deserve to make a living.
Are there hoods and bad guys out their in the audio world ? Most likely yes, as there is in all walks of life, but the picture of rip off audio world is being overstated here in my opinion. If you want high performance for low money learn electronics design your own gear and build it yourself or buy fairly current S/H gear (most loses half of its value after a year). The other option is buy classic vintage gear, but the cost of it keeps going up like antiques each year.
Regards D S D L
I simply paid the price that dealers paid at the time, ie trade. It's not so much rip-off Britain, it's more a broken retail system. The differences between internet and brick 'n mortar sales models are huge. There are positives for brick 'n mortar but in the end the price for the consumer is unsustainable in today's world.
It is only fair that dealers/distributors make a profit to keep them in a business, in jobs, feed the family, etc; at the end of the day they are human beings and deserve to make a living.
There's nothing wrong with people trying to 'make a living'. But there are quite a few out there who would rather 'get rich'... usually at our expense!
Balance, remember? ;)
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 21:12
There's nothing wrong with people trying to 'make a living'. But there are quite a few out there who would rather 'get rich'... usually at our expense!
Balance, remember? ;)
Hi Mike
As I said yes there are a few but I'll tell you being in the audio trade is bloody hard work. The overheads are potentially large (not if you work from home) if you have a high street shop, all the taxes you have to pay, insurance, stocking costs etc. You have to sell a lot to cover it all and by its very nature audio is a luxury, so less is sold.
We are not talking about a bulk/high production low manufacturing costs model here but a small manufacturing model, thus no economies of scale unless you use China and China is not that cheap now + they want to do their own thing now as well.
I am sorry but you will always pay more for low production run luxury goods and audio is just that.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 21:14
I simply paid the price that dealers paid at the time, ie trade. It's not so much rip-off Britain, it's more a broken retail system. The differences between internet and brick 'n mortar sales models are huge. There are positives for brick 'n mortar but in the end the price for the consumer is unsustainable in today's world.
Were you in the trade ? If so you may have been given a slightly better price as it was for you. Normal margin with Ortofon is not, as far as I can recall 50%.
Regards D S D L
Were you in the trade ? If so you may have been given a slightly better price as it was for you. Normal margin with Ortofon is not, as far as I can recall 50%.
Regards D S D L
I was regarded as trade. The trade price lists I saw were of the order of £375 trade for a £700 cartridge. So not quite 50% but pretty darned close. Of course Henley are just a distributor. What price did they get the KBs from Ortofon? Let's say Ortofon charge £250 (I bet a lot less), the punter pays £700. No wonder 2juki prices on ebay were so much lower than dealer prices.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 21:53
I was regarded as trade. The trade price lists I saw were of the order of £375 trade for a £700 cartridge. So not quite 50% but pretty darned close. Of course Henley are just a distributor. What price did they get the KBs from Ortofon? Let's say Ortofon charge £250 (I bet a lot less), the punter pays £700. No wonder 2juki prices on ebay were so much lower than dealer prices.
+ VAT =£440.63 does not quite look so good now.
If the price included VAT then you were done a one of "because its for you deal". Henley right that off, as a promotion in the hope you like it, rave about it and sell a few more for them. That's how it works at times as it does in many industries. However not all in the audio trade do this or can afford to, at best you might get a few percent more over standard trade.
We can winge about it beat our collective breasts and say its not fair but that is how it is. There is a manufacturers price, distributors price, final retail price in all areas of selling. The percentages differ, as do the amounts of money involved but everything from a packet of cornflakes to a BMW have this built in, that's life. However there are also massive costs to come out of those profits, when all is said and done you would have to sell major amounts to be rich. A few dealers/distributors manage it, but most don't and just do okay. Anyone tells you there are fortunes to be made in audio is deluded and being very dishonest to you.
Back in the 80's with the arrival of CD, well that was very different times, everyone had to have a CD player a new amplifier and speakers to suit the new format. Fortunes were made back then but were also lost when the CD bubble burst.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 22:00
I see a lot of stuff at 85%+ but then we have been know to sell stuff at less than 1% .... the shops target is an optimistic 35% average to cover everything and get by... So it need the odd high profit item to survive
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 22:03
I see a lot of stuff at 85%+ but then we have been know to sell stuff at less than 1% .... the shops target is an optimistic 35% average to cover everything and get by... So it need the odd high profit item to survive
Hi Hamish
Who is offering 85% ? That is way above anything I ever saw. PM me if you don't want to say in the open.
Yes 35% to 40% is the average but if you give any discount and lots of time into a sale then the costs increase and the margin goes down.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
24-06-2010, 22:13
Pm sent :)
+ VAT =£440.63 does not quite look so good now.
If the price included VAT then you were done a one of "because its for you deal". Henley right that off, as a promotion in the hope you like it, rave about it and sell a few more for them. That's how it works at times as it does in many industries. However not all in the audio trade do this or can afford to, at best you might get a few percent more over standard trade.
We can winge about it beat our collective breasts and say its not fair but that is how it is. There is a manufacturers price, distributors price, final retail price in all areas of selling. The percentages differ, as do the amounts of money involved but everything from a packet of cornflakes to a BMW have this built in, that's life. However there are also massive costs to come out of those profits, when all is said and done you would have to sell major amounts to be rich. A few dealers/distributors manage it, but most don't and just do okay. Anyone tells you there are fortunes to be made in audio is deluded and being very dishonest to you.
Back in the 80's with the arrival of CD, well that was very different times, everyone had to have a CD player a new amplifier and speakers to suit the new format. Fortunes were made back then but were also lost when the CD bubble burst.
Regards D S D L
Hmmm, well car dealers make little on new cars, they are expected to make their money on servicing and 2nd hand cars. I say again that the business model is broken, your thinking is rapidly becoming out of date. Sure there's room for high prices charged by multi-level sales organisations but look at the likes of Mark Grant vs Nordost. As a punter do you want pay for distribution, dealers and glossy advertising or go direct? You can afford to make a few mistakes with products sourced direct from manufacturers and still come out ahead.
I am sorry but you will always pay more for low production run luxury goods and audio is just that.
Maybe so... but I can't help thinking how many more 'units' would be shifted if 'profit margins' (or greed!) were held in check and prices were somewhat more realistic and reasonable?
Spectral Morn
24-06-2010, 22:41
Hmmm, well car dealers make little on new cars, they are expected to make their money on servicing and 2nd hand cars. I say again that the business model is broken, your thinking is rapidly becoming out of date. Sure there's room for high prices charged by multi-level sales organisations but look at the likes of Mark Grant vs Nordost. As a punter do you want pay for distribution, dealers and glossy advertising or go direct? You can afford to make a few mistakes with products sourced direct from manufacturers and still come out ahead.
Nordost :vomfest:
I pay for what sounds best regardless of where or how it is sold. If its the direct sale crafts person or the traditional model. It is what suits my ears system etc.
Regards D S D L
There's nothing wrong with people trying to 'make a living'. But there are quite a few out there who would rather 'get rich'... usually at our expense!
Balance, remember? ;)
I read somewhere that Linn bought in both the Supex 900 and the Grace 707 arms, for a tiny fraction of the price they charged their customers (I forget the exact figure, but it was something like 10% or less).
Regards
Nordost :vomfest:
I pay for what sounds best regardless of where or how it is sold. If its the direct sale crafts person or the traditional model. It is what suits my ears system etc.
Regards D S D L
We agree on Nordost! But the point is we could substitute most "traditional" cable manufacturers and compare their multi-level sales model pricing Mark Grant and other direct to the public pricing. Much of 2 channel audio will end up being more specialised in this way. Electronics is polarising too, eg we have Stan B vs say Naim for DACs, there's a market for both.
+ VAT =£440.63 does not quite look so good now.
If the price included VAT then you were done a one of "because its for you deal". Henley right that off, as a promotion in the hope you like it, rave about it and sell a few more for them. That's how it works at times as it does in many industries. However not all in the audio trade do this or can afford to, at best you might get a few percent more over standard trade.
I don't believe the deal I got was "special", simply trade price (which was great and I was very pleased about it). I've just found the invoice. It's from Nov 2003, price was £326.81 + VAT = £384.00. At the time I believe retail price was £700. Of course dealers have to make money, pay for their stock, premises and staff. We must now be getting to the point where 2 channel is so specialised that much of it is not being being served by the dealer model any more.
Apologies for the thread drift, I'll keep quiet now!
Hi Clive,
Sure there's room for high prices charged by multi-level sales organisations but look at the likes of Mark Grant vs Nordost. As a punter do you want pay for distribution, dealers and glossy advertising or go direct?
Do I f*ck! I would go direct EVERY time, if I could, and so would anyone else with any sense :)
*That*, my friends, is one of the reasons why products from people like Mark Grant and Stan Beresford are so heavily promoted and recommended on AOS - and it will always remain the case.
When you discover outstanding products which punch way above their weight, sonically, considering their retail price, then they deserve to be championed to the hilt, especially when those behind the products are such genuinely nice people, and are in it for the right reasons. We would love to find plenty of others like them, and do the same with their products, so that everyone benefits in the same way.
At the very core of the AOS ethos is a passionate desire (by me in particular) to unearth true 'giant-killers' in hi-fi and identify them to our members so that ordinary people who do not necessarily possess large disposable incomes can gain access to the type of hi-end audio performance normally only found in the best and most expensive products on the market. That is one of the main reasons why this community was created.
I abhor the business model of Nordost and other companies like them who price their products obscenely high, cloaking them in techno-babble, in order to impart, in many cases, a false sense of credibility and an illusion of exclusivity; in essence where one is largely paying for the ownership of a 'desirable badge'. Such equipment, and the business methodology behind it, is the complete antithesis of what AOS stands for.
Don't get me wrong, neither AOS or me are in any way whatsoever against hi-end equipment which is expensive for the right reasons, where genuine innovation, design excellence and true engineering prowess are in evidence: the Bentleys of the hi-fi world, if you will, where one pays accordingly for something which represents the true state-of-the-art.
However, the market for such products is miniscule, and so while AOS will always give such equipment and ancillaries the kudos they deserve, we will continue to champion the 'little people', whose products deliver the highest sound-per-pound-value, as quite simply, those are what are likely to bring most joy to the majority.
[Sermon over] Now let's get back on-topic and identify new cartridge options for Steve! :cool:
Marco.
Guys I am frankly sick of reading this sort of thing. Slurp..... How do you think the whole world works, everyone in a chain makes a profit its how they keep in business and yes it adds up but that is life. So some make excessive profit in the world ?yes they do. Is it fair ? no, but without knowing all the facts in the case of these two arms...well I am sorry but any comments such as have been said are, well useless and creates a possibly entirely unwarranted besmirching of what may well be an excellent arm, priced right.
Manufacturer Profit, Distribution profit, retailer profit. Its in everything even the material Marco uses for making his picture frames.
You know I am also tired of reading about products being dished when no one has heard them, and I am sorry but educated guesses don't always cut it either. There is imho also no substitute for actually listening. The only opinion of value is that of someone who has heard the two arms. If not anything else is worthless guess work, so how can anyone say that one is better or not or worth its money or not. I can't nor would I.
Probably just made myself really unpopular but what I just said needed saying imho.
Regards D S D L
There's no point in me chipping in on this debate really, because I will probably just rearrange the sentences Neil has posted into a different order.
One thing though, having been in sales myself, is that what we tend to forget when we recoil at the profit margins, is the amount of work you have to do to get one sale - how many of us have had hifi demos at a dealer, or even chatted for half an hour and not bought anything? Plenty of free advice, but the dealers still need to earn a crust. I genuinely doubt there are many stinking rich dealers out there, despite the margins.
As for some of the manufacturers that are trying to genuinely take the piss though (the Oppo DVD player reboxed, I think, can't remember by who, gainclones that cost peanuts, in a fancy wooden box etc.) then they genuinely do deserve scorn.
The fundamental point that is our way of buying certain types of products is changing or indeed has changed. Before the internet it wasn't possible to do business directly with manufacturers unless they were very local too you. The world has changed, the old distributor / dealer setups can still have a place place but they aren't the only way anymore. This isn't about the commercial realities of people (ie distributors & dealers) needing to cover costs and also turn a profit. This is about taking cost out by removing unnecessary distribution and sales channels.
I tend to agree with Clive we have a whole new Paradigm now, there are many reasons for this High Otlay costs of shops, the freedom of the net (ebay), forums like this, a strong sense of anger of what appears at times to high mark up (you know who I mean)
For myself I rather buy from the person who made it if I can.
I know the time and energy that has gone into the product I can get a personal response to any question or issues I have. I often become friends with the maker and generally have something that has been hand made at not crazy prices.
I think a number of dealers are now finding a different route and have become a lot more personalised in their service.
But I do not believe in messing dealers around, I only listen to products if I am in the market and not just to satisfy my curiosity, this does not mean I will buy but if I am blown away the chances are high I will purchase.
The Grand Wazoo
25-06-2010, 17:07
Both business models have their place, but please bear in mind that we are not normal human beings! We're all rather entrenched in our love of getting a good sound and have experience in how best to go about it.
However, those people who have yet to buy their first proper system, or move on to improve what they bought first time around need a proper dealer. There is a place for both approaches.
Internet shopping killed the High street.
In general it's great for the consumer that the Internet has resulted in a lowering of prices. However, when it comes to audio equipment you need to listen before you buy. Which is where the dealers come in.
Unfortunately, apparently, a lot of people go to the dealers to listen (using the dealers services for free) then buy online at cheaper prices. Not good.
It's a difficult situation, but dealers need to change and adapt to the new way of doing things, and thankfully many have.
One downside to a lowering of prices and Internet sales is that a lot of stuff out there is crap. What looks good on the webpage is frequently, in real life, shoddily made. Many general everyday items that we've bought on t'internet, had we seen them in real life first, taken them off the shelves to take to the till, well, we'd have put them back and not bought them.
Kris.
The fundamental point that is our way of buying certain types of products is changing or indeed has changed. Before the internet it wasn't possible to do business directly with manufacturers unless they were very local too you. The world has changed, the old distributor / dealer setups can still have a place place but they aren't the only way anymore. This isn't about the commercial realities of people (ie distributors & dealers) needing to cover costs and also turn a profit. This is about taking cost out by removing unnecessary distribution and sales channels.
Indeed, but there is a lot more to value for money than how cheap you pay for something - which is where it is sad, as it is us that causes the problem in the first place. It always annoys me (rarely seen on these forums, I hasten to add) when you read that someone went and had a demo of a product, then went home and bought it direct on the web and saved money. How long will there be any dealers left if everyone does that? (And not just hifi retailers, either.)
Both business models have their place, but please bear in mind that we are not normal human beings! We're all rather entrenched in our love of getting a good sound and have experience in how best to go about it.
However, those people who have yet to buy their first proper system, or move on to improve what they bought first time around need a proper dealer. There is a place for both approaches.
Agree
As for some of the manufacturers that are trying to genuinely take the piss though (the Oppo DVD player reboxed, I think, can't remember by who, gainclones that cost peanuts, in a fancy wooden box etc.) then they genuinely do deserve scorn.
Indeed, Alex. And they will get it here with interest! :eyebrows:
I think it's important to reiterate that AOS will always exist to serve the interests and needs of the punters/end users of products and not necessarily those of dealers or manufacturers.
Don't get me wrong, we will always help and support the good guys who are in it for the right reasons as genuine audio and music enthusiasts as well as businessmen, such as Stan B, Mark Grant, Tony S, Anthony TD, hifi dave, etc, but dealers and manufacturers who clearly have an ulterior agenda (and in some cases parasitic tendencies) will never find AOS a comfortable place to exist. In the end their true colours will be revealed and they will be exposed for what they really are...........
That's just a wee warning to any dealers or manufacturers out there who think this is a place they can 'milk' with impunity ;)
If so, think again!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-06-2010, 17:44
Indeed, but there is a lot more to value for money than how cheap you pay for something - which is where it is sad, as it is us that causes the problem in the first place. It always annoys me (rarely seen on these forums, I hasten to add) when you read that someone went and had a demo of a product, then went home and bought it direct on the web and saved money. How long will there be any dealers left if everyone does that? (And not just hifi retailers, either.)
I agree with the above, but I guess you would expect me to say that having experienced this.
Never lazy when I worked in the trade always took the long view and offered the best to my customers most respected it and were loyal to the service and I guess to me. However there were a few who would screw you over for a few quid....then when it went wrong you had to try and put it right or risk loosing any possible future custom. It's an entirely different matter when you don't have or can't help them then that is fair enough, but when you spend hours trying to help, they then disappear, then later on you find a dealer elsewhere who did no work got the sale because they were a bit cheaper :steam: That would make my blood boil....but that is sadly life a quick saving is taken and to hell with the dealer....until next time :doh:
Regards D S D L
hifi_dave
25-06-2010, 18:19
The Specialist Hi-Fi dealer makes, on average, 30% gross. Now, from this you need to deduct the VAT at 17.5%, c/card commission at 3-4% and the Tax. Then come all the overheads like rent, business rates, insurance, electricity, telephone, advertising, phone and wages. The dealer also has to buy in the demo stock - yes buy the stock. It isn't a freebie. Take it from me there is not a lot left over.
The chains and larger dealers work on far higher profit margins. If they don't get 50-60% profit they won't stock that product.
By the way, I detest the term 'slurp'. Everyone has to make some profit.
Spectral Morn
25-06-2010, 18:43
The Specialist Hi-Fi dealer makes, on average, 30% gross. Now, from this you need to deduct the VAT at 17.5%, c/card commission at 3-4% and the Tax. Then come all the overheads like rent, business rates, insurance, electricity, telephone, advertising, phone and wages. The dealer also has to buy in the demo stock - yes buy the stock. It isn't a freebie. Take it from me there is not a lot left over.
The chains and larger dealers work on far higher profit margins. If they don't get 50-60% profit they won't stock that product.
By the way, I detest the term 'slurp'. Everyone has to make some profit.
Exactly the points I have been trying to make but I didn't supply as much detail.
Regards D S D L
Hi Dave,
The Specialist Hi-Fi dealer makes, on average, 30% gross. Now, from this you need to deduct the VAT at 17.5%, c/card commission at 3-4% and the Tax. Then come all the overheads like rent, business rates, insurance, electricity, telephone, advertising, phone and wages. The dealer also has to buy in the demo stock - yes buy the stock. It isn't a freebie. Take it from me there is not a lot left over.
The chains and larger dealers work on far higher profit margins. If they don't get 50-60% profit they won't stock that product.
Indeed - and thanks for the clarification :)
By the way, I detest the term 'slurp'
It was of course coined by 'he of NVA', but since embraced and repeated where appropriate, by your buddy, t'other Dave! ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
25-06-2010, 19:17
Hi Dave,
It was of course coined by 'he of NVA', but since embraced and repeated where appropriate, by your buddy, t'other Dave! ;)
Marco.
Exactly.
The manufacturer selling direct also makes a profit and is not doing it for the love....
Exactly.
The manufacturer selling direct also makes a profit and is not doing it for the love....
There's nothing wrong with profit, indeed it's necessary. What is wrong is where there are too many people in the distribution and sales chain taking profit for services that are not required. I'm not saying dealers and not necessary, they are but only for certain buyers, not all.
I have attempted NEVER to use the term "slurp" in vain and as my life for over thirty years was in the audio industry, I know exactly where my mate Dave is coming from.
HOWEVER, in my view, there is a difference between an honest profit and bumping up the prices to make the stuff more "exclusive."
I'm no doubt way off beam here, but a retail price of ten times or more the manufacturing cost still grates heavily with me. Some companies seem to be extremely wasteful of the resources they use, yet others such as Rega (for example) have traditionally pared everything to the bone yet still sell good value and generally reliable gear. Put it this way, Roy Gandy was able to replace his Porsche 928 every few years without too much difficulty. I do, however, see that the Apheta costs several hundred quid, yet doesn't *seem* to offer much in technology to me.
By the way everyone, I MUST confirm that everything i say is ONLY my opinion, although I may get irritated when my opinion (and that of my one-time colleagues) is challenged. I've been out of it for too long now I think, and now I can't sit people down and confirm or deny my previous findings. I feel rather impotent..
hifi_dave
25-06-2010, 19:58
That term was used by a certain person as an insult and it is. That person also makes a very handsome profit on the products he sells direct and is therefore also a 'slurper' by his own definition.
I prefer the term - profit and it is something we all need to make or else the World will fall apart. As I pointed out previously, Hi-Fi specialists do not make a vast profit and even less when the overheads are taken out.
There are very few Millionaires in the World of Hi-Fi.
Hi Dave,
By the way everyone, I MUST confirm that everything i say is ONLY my opinion....
Noted and appreciated :)
...although I may get irritated when my opinion (and that of my one-time colleagues) is challenged.
Why get irritated?
That's just the way it is, mate, on forums such as AOS, where discussions are searching and in-depth.
If you make a statement regarding a product which is completely contrary to what someone else has experienced with said product, then that person has a right to challenge your opinion, but it's always done in a friendly way here.
What you do then is defend your opinion accordingly (if you're absolutely convinced you're right), whilst acknowledging the equally credible argument of your 'opponent' - without throwing a wee strop-ette in the process.... Only kidding!! :lolsign: ;)
Marco.
HOWEVER, in my view, there is a difference between an honest profit and bumping up the prices to make the stuff more "exclusive."
Absobloodylutely - ignoring the emotive word "slurp" there is a big difference between profit and profiteering - however, in my experience (and my airy-fairy way I like to view the world being levelled through karma...) profiteering never lasts too long before they are found out. Some things in life are genuinely worth paying a premium for, but price does not guarantee a premium product.
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 22:29
I been reading a post on Analogue Art and the thread stated to look at direct selling
First of all I still think there is room for both the Traditional Hifi Dealer and people who sell direct. But if a look at my equipment none of it came from a traditional high street dealer
I think with rent costs etc it is very hard to maintain the traditional high street models, a lot of dealers now operate from home or have premises that are not based in big cities.
I think a good dealer is still a good way to get equipment but just wondering what people think around different trade models
One thing I like about dealers that I couldn't get elsewhere (not from craigslist/audiogon, nor from purchasing online) is the try-before-you-buy deals. Most of us here know that, unless you actually try the component at home, and unless you can actually live with it for a while, you can't really tell whether that component is a good match for your audio system.
Smart dealers capitalize on this, and they also forge long-term relationship with their patients.
Yes, there are individuals who abuse that relationship, and after tricking their dealer to take them through the trial period, return the component and then buy the same one used, or online. But that's despicable, and it certainly creates a huge body of bad karma for such individuals.
However, most people are not like that, and appreciate the time and effort that the dealer puts into the deal. Unless you have lots of well heeled friends who are into audio and who are willing to let you borrow their gear for evaluation, your best bet is to make a solid relationship with a good local dealer. That's gonna buy you a lot down the road, as you get a chance to evaluate a lot of configuration. As a matter of fact, I believe that arrangement might save you a lot of money throughout the years of pursuing the audio pleasures.
Am I currently pursuing that model? Sadly, no. The reason? I wasn't able to find a dealer in my city who would be really interested in engaging me in this long term process. Most dealers around here are only interested in dealing with super rich Asian clientele, thus peddling the super esoteric products with price tags in tens of thousands, so I'm not really on their radar.
So if you hear them complaining, it's partly their fault -- neglecting your potential customers is fine if that's what you choose to do, but then you lose all rights to complain.
That's how I see it.
Spectral Morn
25-06-2010, 22:36
One thing I like about dealers that I couldn't get elsewhere (not from craigslist/audiogon, nor from purchasing online) is the try-before-you-buy deals. Most of us here know that, unless you actually try the component at home, and unless you can actually live with it for a while, you can't really tell whether that component is a good match for your audio system.
Smart dealers capitalize on this, and they also forge long-term relationship with their patients.
Yes, there are individuals who abuse that relationship, and after tricking their dealer to take them through the trial period, return the component and then buy the same one used, or online. But that's despicable, and it certainly creates a huge body of bad karma for such individuals.
However, most people are not like that, and appreciate the time and effort that the dealer puts into the deal. Unless you have lots of well heeled friends who are into audio and who are willing to let you borrow their gear for evaluation, your best bet is to make a solid relationship with a good local dealer. That's gonna buy you a lot down the road, as you get a chance to evaluate a lot of configuration. As a matter of fact, I believe that arrangement might save you a lot of money throughout the years of pursuing the audio pleasures.
Am I currently pursuing that model? Sadly, no. The reason? I wasn't able to find a dealer in my city who would be really interested in engaging me in this long term process. Most dealers around here are only interested in dealing with super rich Asian clientele, thus peddling the super esoteric products with price tags in tens of thousands, so I'm not really on their radar.
So if you hear them complaining, it's partly their fault -- neglecting your potential customers is fine if that's what you choose to do, but then you lose all rights to complain.
That's how I see it.
I think that is terrible...had it happen to me once as the customer (actually never got as far as that) of a Home Cinema dealer. I went down to see about speakers and he was so uninterested in me because it was a budget speaker package. He sat behind his desk and pretty much could not be bothered. A rich client came in, and he was up from behind the desk and over to him like a shot. I left feeling like a pile of walking poo..... no if he had poo on his shoe, he would have at least paid it enough attention to remove it :steam:
Treat others as you would want to be treated yourself and do so always.
Regards D S D L
Hi Alex,
Am I currently pursuing that model? Sadly, no. The reason? I wasn't able to find a dealer in my city who would be really interested in engaging me in this long term process. Most dealers around here are only interested in dealing with super rich Asian clientele, thus peddling the super esoteric products with price tags in tens of thousands, so I'm not really on their radar.
Indeed; it's shocking. Dealers like that can't be arsed having to work for sale - they prefer it to fall into their laps instead.......! :rolleyes:
Trouble is, there's only so much of that 'cream' business around, and when it eventually dries up, they'll find that all the 'bread & butter' stuff has been hoovered up by another dealer willing to go the extra mile - so tough titty, I say, to the money-grabbing parasites!! :upyours:
Like I said before, dealers and manufacturers who are in the game for the wrong reasons eventually get found out and end up the losers... I love watching Karma in action ;)
Marco.
magiccarpetride
28-06-2010, 16:27
I think that is terrible...had it happen to me once as the customer (actually never got as far as that) of a Home Cinema dealer. I went down to see about speakers and he was so uninterested in me because it was a budget speaker package. He sat behind his desk and pretty much could not be bothered. A rich client came in, and he was up from behind the desk and over to him like a shot. I left feeling like a pile of walking poo..... no if he had poo on his shoe, he would have at least paid it enough attention to remove it :steam:
Treat others as you would want to be treated yourself and do so always.
Regards D S D L
Hear, hear. I don't like the 'old guard' elitist attitude. I believe that we're all equal, and your money is as good as anyone else's money.
But some of those quasi elitist shops insist that they only do business with people who have certain 'pedigree'. I remember one incident (happened 20 years ago) when I walked into a computer store, and after browsing, asked the sales person if they could give me the price list. He smiled and said: "We only have the price list for our customers!"
I kid you not, that's exactly what he told me. So who am I, then?
magiccarpetride
28-06-2010, 16:32
Hi Alex,
Indeed; it's shocking. Dealers like that can't be arsed having to work for sale - they prefer it to fall into their laps instead.......! :rolleyes:
Trouble is, there's only so much of that 'cream' business around, and when it eventually dries up, they'll find that all the 'bread & butter' stuff has been hoovered up by another dealer willing to go the extra mile - so tough titty, I say, to the money-grabbing parasites!! :upyours:
Like I said before, dealers and manufacturers who are in the game for the wrong reasons eventually get found out and end up the losers... I love watching Karma in action ;)
Marco.
True, karma never sleeps!
The lopsidedness always occurs during the transient times, such as the ones we live in right now. Here in Vancouver, we have a large influx of wealthy Asian people. They immigrate to the West Coast with bags of money, and create this feeding frenzy anomaly. The real estate and retailers reorient themselves to catering to those clients, managing at the same time to completely alienate us, regular customers.
But as you said, the influx is not unlimited, and soon it'll dry up, and what will those geniuses do then?
Internet shopping killed the High street.
No. Bloody fascist parking restrictions did! :steam:
Spectral Morn
28-06-2010, 16:44
No. Bloody fascist parking restrictions did! :steam:
It certainly does not help.
Regards D S D L
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