View Full Version : Is PRaT real, or just an artifact of something else?
sluggish
23-06-2010, 15:52
I know it when I hear it, but do you always have to go flat earth to get it? Is it what's left over when you tighten up the bass but remove ambient detail -- an artifact of highlighting and simplification? Can tubes do it? Can big manly American amps do it? Can speakers with drivers over 8" do it? Why did my LK1/280, which should do it, usually just get on my nerves while my Creek 4240 and Naim Nait (1) also seem to do it, but didn't get on my nerves? Can you have pace and space at the same time? Why does cold Italian food almost always taste good for breakfast while cold Mexican food can be risky? Why does every beer InBev buys end up tasting like urine? WHYYYYYYY?????
Pr@t often meant no deep bass, screaming upper mid (to emphasize rim-shots) and tinsel for treble..
I dare not comment nowadays, but pr@t is only one aspect of reproduced sound and is a factor of time-smear in drive units, cabinets and passive crossovers where speakers are concerned and maybe odd order distortion coupled with crossover artifacts (yes, even today) in amps.
Rare Bird
23-06-2010, 16:15
I know what it means ;)
Stratmangler
23-06-2010, 16:18
I know what it means ;)
:lolsign:
? Why does every beer InBev buys end up tasting like urine? WHYYYYYYY?????
You need to get into Guinness- or even better, Murphys Stout:)
sluggish
23-06-2010, 16:28
Regarding time-smear ( the elimination thereof) -- maybe I'm being too reductive, but doesn't that basically boil down to good transient response? The center of my confusion here is that ESLs should, by the transient standard, be the darlings of the PRaT set, but they aren't. Big horn dogs like the Kipsch should, too, but they usually sound a little too confused to be a great PRaT speaker. I'd speculate (though very well erroneously) that neither ESLs nor muti-driver horns fully resolve the dynamic picture: the ESL have speed, coherence, and clarity, but lack punch and have energy storage problems due to their nonrigid frames, whereas milti- driver horns punch to burn but have X-over and driver spacing-induced phase problems and large, noisy, underdamped cabinets introducing confusion and spear.
And I can see where tube OPTs would blunt transients, but why do many transistor amps sound comparatively lifeless and slow? Is this an artifact, too? A consequence of soft voicing to please certain consumer expectations?
My take is that PRaT was a marketing ploy to sell speakers that were not capable of reproducing deep bass notes - or even the bottom string on a bass guitar.
sluggish
23-06-2010, 16:40
:glug:Martin, I had a Stout the other day and it chocolate yumminess was indeed fully intact. But Inbev still has some 'splainin' to do regarding that worcestershire sauce-tasting Draught swill!:drinking:
But Inbev still has some 'splainin' to do regarding that worcestershire sauce-tasting Draught swill!:drinking:
What's that then?
I pass. :)
Footballs over??:)
sluggish
23-06-2010, 16:51
My take is that PRaT was a marketing ploy to sell speakers that were not capable of reproducing deep bass notes - or even the bottom string on a bass guitar.
__________________
Martin
What about 'briks and DBLs? Do they have PRaT? Actually I've heard aktive 'briks and have to admit they weren't all that bouncy, but maybe they weren't set up well. And as recall it from the old hifi shop days, we got a pair of those big kaber-era deals with the isobarik loading and the baffles that had the golf ball divot like things in 'em, and the official linn rep did indeed tune much of the bass out of them (we had the x-overs in the default settings, and he set the bass levels to lower-than -default levels), which made them sound sort of neutered.
Footballs over??:)
:lol::lol::lol:
sluggish
23-06-2010, 16:56
Martin, maybe Murphy's Draught is a US-only thing. It's Murphy's version of light beer, and it tastes like cold week coffee and stale pan drippings
My take is that PRaT was a marketing ploy to sell speakers that were not capable of reproducing deep bass notes - or even the bottom string on a bass guitar.
__________________
Martin
What about 'briks and DBLs? Do they have PRaT? Actually I've heard aktive 'briks and have to admit they weren't all that bouncy, but maybe they weren't set up well. And as recall it from the old hifi shop days, we got a pair of those big kaber-era deals with the isobarik loading and the baffles that had the golf ball divot like things in 'em, and the official linn rep did indeed tune much of the bass out of them (we had the x-overs in the default settings, and he set the bass levels to lower-than -default levels), which made them sound sort of neutered.
Well I don't know I have never heard Isobariks but you can buy a pair of them very cheap used nowadays (in the UK anyway). Linn Kans I have heard and thought underwhelming but they were not fronted by anything special. I've owned speakers that timed badly (Studio Power) and would not wish them on anyone but I suspect there are not any truly bad new speakers on the market in that respect in modern times.
For me it's big bass drivers (or Dual Concentrics) in big cabs, in a big room. Worry about PRaT later.:)
magiccarpetride
23-06-2010, 17:05
My take is that PRaT was a marketing ploy to sell speakers that were not capable of reproducing deep bass notes - or even the bottom string on a bass guitar.
I think you may be onto something there. I have been, for years, mystified by this PRaT shit. I wasn't buying it one bit, because I wasn't able to hear it. Then one day, I got me pair of Maggies, and all of a sudden, all was explained => PRaT!
And as you know, Maggies are not famous for their deep bass (they cannot go below 40 Hz). Some try to compensate by plugging in a pair of subwoofers, but Maggies are so damn fast that the subs are always left behind in the dust to only muddle the picture.
You can't have it all (unless you have a place to put it).
I think you may be onto something there. I have been, for years, mystified by this PRaT shit. I wasn't buying it one bit, because I wasn't able to hear it. Then one day, I got me pair of Maggies, and all of a sudden, all was explained => PRaT!
And as you know, Maggies are not famous for their deep bass (they cannot go below 40 Hz). Some try to compensate by plugging in a pair of subwoofers, but Maggies are so damn fast that the subs are always left behind in the dust to only muddle the picture.
You can't have it all (unless you have a place to put it).
Well I've never heard electrostatics either (I'm coming across as a bit of a hi-fi virgin here aren't I?) but my thinking is that electric bass guitar sound comes from a driver in a box so I want a driver in a box to reproduce it. I don't listen to much acoustic or classical.
hifi_dave
23-06-2010, 18:33
Magneplanar's aren't electrostatics, they are planar speakers - flat moving coil.
magiccarpetride
23-06-2010, 18:58
Magneplanar's aren't electrostatics, they are planar speakers - flat moving coil.
Whoever said they are electrostatics?
hifi_dave
23-06-2010, 19:02
Post no.17 :scratch:
I bet the new version NVA speakers have pr@t.
hifi_dave
23-06-2010, 19:06
Why is that then....:scratch:
My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.
My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.
thats a good point...
my view is though that most speakers do not reproduce any extra excitement.. its more a case of quite alots missing... that is except, in the bass, most box systems start to add colorations that are not in the recordings..
i just bought a pair of 1960's home made semi corner speakers .. the cabs are on the tip now, they were big.. 4'x2'x18".. identical looking except one was bass reflex the other was one based on the original wharedale airdales.. other than that, both identically, and very well made..
the reflex box, even at that size, had the traditional thickened bass sound (not as bad as many modern speakers)
the other was much better.. but still nothing like the clarity of what is possible with open baffles ..
in the main the box is only needed for the bass reproduction, and in doing so it usually adds something of its own thats not on the recording,
They went to the tip after going to see eddie reader last weekend, my baffles sounded very very close to the live sound.. being a sado, i came straight home and listened to a couple of cd's until the early hours , those boxes where no where near
Well I've never heard electrostatics either (I'm coming across as a bit of a hi-fi virgin here aren't I?) but my thinking is that electric bass guitar sound comes from a driver in a box so I want a driver in a box to reproduce it. I don't listen to much acoustic or classical
Some electric guitar speakers are boxed, some are open back ( like open baffles) the boxed is generally recorded/mixed to sound ok.. but it can be on the edge... put that through the wrong system and it can sound quite poor as the reflex box effects are added to original signal
i'm not against boxes, i do agree that box bass often does sound both powerfull and provides very good extension.. but accurate... the bigger boxes start to get close..
my view is it's not until one puts them side by side that one can really judge speakers..
i've been caught out a few times..
magiccarpetride
24-06-2010, 16:48
My view is you don't want your hifi injecting false 'excitement' into your music, any more than you want your hifi sucking all the excitement out of the music. Not all music is toe-tapping.
Not sure I understand how do you propose that a hi fi system can inject false 'excitement' into music?
If you go and buy a cheapo boombox, you'll be able to hear anti-PRaT. It will be plainly audible to you how the bass is lagging behind the music, and how not all instruments coincide on the beat. This is due to the fact that those cheapo components tend to be sluggish, inaccurate, delivering scattered sound.
Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!
Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!
But does "real" ie live music sound like this? Prat can be ok sometimes but systems that major on it (ie make all music "time") are not remotely realistic.
magiccarpetride
24-06-2010, 20:48
But does "real" ie live music sound like this
If performed well, yes. My children's Christmas concerts at school lacked PRaT, because the kids were not experienced enough to keep pace with the conductor. Some children were lagging behind, some were rushing ahead, while some stayed on the beat. Overall, it sounded terrible.
Same can happen in the real live performances by the pro musicians. If someone in the band is hammered, they'd screw up the PRaT of the band.
One would, however, assume (and hope) that such botched performances would not make it onto the record. So when I plop in a record to play, I'm assuming that the musicians were on the beat when recording it (that's why today many studios have click tracks, to ensure that the buying public can enjoy the PRaT).
Live performance is another story, and yes, the band can lose a lot of coherence while playing live, and that's basically what differentiates men from boys.
If performed well, yes. My children's Christmas concerts at school lacked PRaT, because the kids were not experienced enough to keep pace with the conductor. Some children were lagging behind, some were rushing ahead, while some stayed on the beat. Overall, it sounded terrible.
Same can happen in the real live performances by the pro musicians. If someone in the band is hammered, they'd screw up the PRaT of the band.
One would, however, assume (and hope) that such botched performances would not make it onto the record. So when I plop in a record to play, I'm assuming that the musicians were on the beat when recording it (that's why today many studios have click tracks, to ensure that the buying public can enjoy the PRaT).
Live performance is another story, and yes, the band can lose a lot of coherence while playing live, and that's basically what differentiates men from boys.
Sorry, I don't buy that. There can be an element of Prat in live music but when you hear systems that push Prat to the limit it bears no semblance to reality. Rather like looking through rose tinted specs. Maybe you've not heard the worst of Linn or Naim - this is what I'm referring to,
magiccarpetride
24-06-2010, 22:08
Sorry, I don't buy that. There can be an element of Prat in live music but when you hear systems that push Prat to the limit it bears no semblance to reality. Rather like looking through rose tinted specs. Maybe you've not heard the worst of Linn or Naim - this is what I'm referring to,
Gotcha! No, I'm not into such gimmicks. I prefer neutral sounding systems, which I build by hand-matching audio components.
Same as when I'm recording music -- I abhor hyping the sound up. Best to stay as close as possible to the original sound, the way it was miked in the room. True, it often poses challenges when mixing tracks down (the infamous 'mixing mud' syndrome), which is where judicious editing and EQ-ing becomes irreplaceable. But I'm trying to stay as faithful as the original sound as possible.
...all instruments coincide on the beat...
A very important way of describing it. It's not about speed. It's not about accentuated frequencies, its not about faking excitement, its about... well... as MagiccCarpertide says. As long as the interplay between musical components and their tunes are being correctly portrayed - then I am more likely to hear the emotional intent of the performance (even in mono).
The ability to time is usually related to the phase linearity across the frequency response.
Andrew
Not sure I understand how do you propose that a hi fi system can inject false 'excitement' into music?
If you go and buy a cheapo boombox, you'll be able to hear anti-PRaT. It will be plainly audible to you how the bass is lagging behind the music, and how not all instruments coincide on the beat. This is due to the fact that those cheapo components tend to be sluggish, inaccurate, delivering scattered sound.
Now play the same tune on a high quality audio system. All of a sudden, the sound tightens up, everything snaps into focus, the bass in particular becomes very agile, and the music is merrily marching on, precisely on the beat. That, my friend, is PRaT!
You may not be aware where the term prat came from, your attempt at defining it above as you believe it to be suggests so. The term has been used for 40 years and arose from the presentational style of certain manufacturers gear - Naim being one. It may not be wise to try to rewrite history.
All of course in my humble opinion.
And there were no CD players just turntables et al
The way it is described, it sounds like speaker time-alignment to me. Because the rest of the reproduction chain (amps and source) cannot misalign peaks.
Can I ask a question : does prat needs to be recorded, mastered and pressed (for vinyl) with prat equipment, too ? :scratch:
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 17:52
You may not be aware where the term prat came from, your attempt at defining it above as you believe it to be suggests so. The term has been used for 40 years and arose from the presentational style of certain manufacturers gear - Naim being one. It may not be wise to try to rewrite history.
All of course in my humble opinion.
And there were no CD players just turntables et al
You're correct, I don't know the genesis of the concept. All I know is that, the way the term PRaT is formulated, it points out (to me at least) the differences between lousy and high quality audio systems. Lousy systems offer a playback that is very messy, all over the place. Play the same track on a high end audio system, and notice how all the messiness disappears as all the instruments snap into focus. That's how I understand the meaning of PRaT, but I may be merely revising history, as you said (in which case, we may need a different acronym for what I'm talking about here;)
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 17:54
The way it is described, it sounds like speaker time-alignment to me. Because the rest of the reproduction chain (amps and source) cannot misalign peaks.
Can I ask a question : does prat needs to be recorded, mastered and pressed (for vinyl) with prat equipment, too ? :scratch:
No, because speakers play no role in that process.
No, because speakers play no role in that process.
And why is that so ?
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 18:05
And why is that so ?
Actually, Dimitri, I was wrong (should strive to turn the brain on BEFORE typing!)
I think it is absolutely necessary to use the highest possible quality of the recording/mixing/monitoring etc. equipment. Otherwise, you may end up with comical results.
hifi_dave
25-06-2010, 18:06
It's not just the speakers because amps, CD players and turntables can also sound 'fast' or 'slow'.
Actually, Dimitri, I was wrong (should strive to turn the brain on BEFORE typing!)
I think it is absolutely necessary to use the highest possible quality of the recording/mixing/monitoring etc. equipment. Otherwise, you may end up with comical results.
Ah, I understand better. Nevertheless, if there's misalignment because of the recording/mixing process (the equipment is not prat but crap) and you equipment does not reproduce this misalignment faithfully (but reproduces everything aligned), then the reproduction equipment is not prat.
In other words, it seems to me impossible to decide whether the reproduction equipment is "prat" without knowing the whole chain, even in the case of perfect temporal alignment.
Sorry for being too logical. :o
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 18:26
Ah, I understand better. Nevertheless, if there's misalignment because of the recording/mixing process (the equipment is not prat but crap) and you equipment does not reproduce this misalignment faithfully (but reproduces everything aligned), then the reproduction equipment is not prat.
In other words, it seems to me impossible to decide whether the reproduction equipment is "prat" without knowing the whole chain, even in the case of perfect temporal alignment.
Sorry for being too logical. :o
No, you make perfect sense. The thing is, most professionally produced music meant for general consumption has been prepared using high quality equipment jockeyed by highly trained pros. It would therefore be extremely unlikely that you'll get misalignments delivered in the final process.
That, however, does not rule out the possibility that some recordings may suffer from comical effects. But if you notice those while playing back, and worry that your audio system may be lousy at PRaT, all you have to do is play several other highly reputable recordings (something mainstream, such as the Beatles catalog for example) to hear whether all the instruments and vocals snap into focus.
999 times out of a 1,000, they should.
magiccarpetride
25-06-2010, 18:28
It's not just the speakers because amps, CD players and turntables can also sound 'fast' or 'slow'.
True. I've heard plenty of both types. Let me assure you -- slow is not good.
Steve Toy
25-06-2010, 19:30
Dimitri,
Ok, we'll make it a bit easier: the recording is great as is the mastering. The band is competent temporally, they've played together for years and as such the interplay between them is as tight as a duck's arse and they didn't have a hangover when the recording was made.
Now let's talk about whether a system is capable of showcasing the above and not concern ourselves unduly with whether or not is going to tell us how bad badly played music sounds.
Another thing: bad hi-fi doesn't tell lies it simply omits part of the truth - whatever that truth is and however good or bad it is with the same level of consistency.
Btw, the Francis Cabrel CD you gave me ticks all the above boxes in a very positive sense. :)
Dimitri,
Ok, we'll make it a bit easier: )
Is that the royal 'we'?
Steve Toy
25-06-2010, 20:27
No Joe just the first person plural concerning those in the dialogue.
Your pedantry radar is a little oversensitive again.
Dimitri,
Ok, we'll make it a bit easier: the recording is great as is the mastering. The band is competent temporally, they've played together for years and as such the interplay between them is as tight as a duck's arse and they didn't have a hangover when the recording was made.
Now let's talk about whether a system is capable of showcasing the above and not concern ourselves unduly with whether or not is going to tell us how bad badly played music sounds.
Another thing: bad hi-fi doesn't tell lies it simply omits part of the truth - whatever that truth is and however good or bad it is with the same level of consistency.
Btw, the Francis Cabrel CD you gave me ticks all the above boxes in a very positive sense. :)
In other words, my system is prat but I'm not aware of it... ;)
Steve Toy
26-06-2010, 08:30
Your system is good at PR&T, certainly better than most including some Naim but there is more to come. :)
PR&T is not binary.
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