Audio Innovations s500

[Mikeandvan]

Is there really much difference between the older model which allows for 16 ohm 'tap' and apparently has a better transformer? Been looking at a few on ebay and other sites. Might get some mods done as well if I get hold of one, of which there seem to be many.

[Mr.Ian]

Hmmmm i used to run of the early models sounded great but reliability wasnt its strong point, it was a long time ago now but something to do with shared resistors on the output valves if i remember correctly, the tl12.1 that replaced them were better in all respects, still miss th
em

[Mr.Ian]

There was a fancy way of wiring bi+tri wire speakers to the terminals too but i cant remember the details something to do with optimising the wiring on the different taps

[JohnJo]

Think AudioAl has one, he might know.

No big shock there I suppose, what hasn’t he got :mental:

[Spectral Morn]

Early ones sound better than later. The issue as designer Eric Anderson told me was Peter Q insisting on the case, they overheat easily and that causes the reliability issues. Use it on a top shelf, and with suitable speakers and they sound lovely.

I have one and while I don't use it currently I wont part with mine, mine has the better transformers.

[Mikeandvan]

Early ones sound better than later. The issue as designer Eric Anderson told me was Peter Q insisting on the case, they overheat easily and that causes the reliability issues. Use it on a top shelf, and with suitable speakers and they sound lovely.

I have one and while I don't use it currently I wont part with mine, mine has the better transformers.

Emmm, I tend to keep my amps on for long periods, 4+ hrs, sounds like a fire hazard.

[AD Audio]

I do a choke mod for these which gets rid of most of the heat issues. Both the older and newer output txs sound good, with the older ones having the edge. Some older ones need a rewire as this oxidises and crumbles badly on some examples while it's absolutely fine on others. With a few component changes and a service these make fine sounding, reliable amps
David

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[Audio Al]

Think AudioAl has one, he might know.

No big shock there I suppose, what hasn’t he got :mental:

:lol:

Yes I do indeed have one , Its superb , 4 / 8 / 16 Ohm taps , My one has never gone wrong , Had it reserected by Amp Regen, Then 5 years later Rebuilt by David at AD Audio :)
My unit has the better transformers fitted

[Spectral Morn]

Emmm, I tend to keep my amps on for long periods, 4+ hrs, sounds like a fire hazard.

Not a problem if its on a top shelf with good air flow. It will though be pretty hot at switch off.

Eric argued hard with Peter Q not to insist on the case it got, everything is too cramped, but if it had gone into the case Eric wanted it would not be the lovely looking amp it is. I think another 15 mm of height in the lower section would have helped, plus side vents, but it is what it is. I used mine for many years with the only issue being a resistor below a valve blowing after first switch on, after I had not used it in a long while.

[jahsavage]

I loved mine but it blew up after a few years and had the circuit board replaced, it never sounded quite the same after.

[AJSki2fly]

I had 2 and both and sounded great, the first I had from new and had to return to Brighton with it as the transformer developed and nasty buzz. The other one I purchased secondhand and ran it for 3 years and was superb, I stupidly sold it:doh:.

[Mikeandvan]

I had 2 and both and sounded great, the first I had from new and had to return to Brighton with it as the transformer developed and nasty buzz. The other one I purchased secondhand and ran it for 3 years and was superb, I stupidly sold it:doh:.

Were they both types, Hinkley and non Hinkley transformers? That is the versions with 4/8/16 ohm and just 4/8 ohm speaker posts. Wonder if they're still in Brighton? May'be they could have a quick look at one if I buy it, there used to be an AN shop in Brighton until a decade or so back, on a an out of the way road next to a corner shop.

[Spectral Morn]

Were they both types, Hinkley and non Hinkley transformers? That is the versions with 4/8/16 ohm and just 4/8 ohm speaker posts. Wonder if they're still in Brighton? May'be they could have a quick look at one if I buy it, there used to be an AN shop in Brighton until a decade or so back, on a an out of the way road next to a corner shop.

Audio Innovations went bust and the name was sold on, the only thing that was available after that was the Alto, a weird looking solid state amp, but I don’t know who made them. Richer Sounds sold them in the UK.

The only survivor from that period, was Audio Note UK, which grew out of Audio Innovations distributing Audio Note and Peter Q obtaining the name. Audio Note UK also built Snell copies, and would eventually make turntables based on Voyds.

Audio Innovations back in the day early 90s most often was used with Snell speakers and Voyd turntables.

[AJSki2fly]

Were they both types, Hinkley and non Hinkley transformers? That is the versions with 4/8/16 ohm and just 4/8 ohm speaker posts. Wonder if they're still in Brighton? May'be they could have a quick look at one if I buy it, there used to be an AN shop in Brighton until a decade or so back, on a an out of the way road next to a corner shop.

If I remember correctly they were both the first type, I met Peter Q, about 1989 I think, who sold me the first and when he replaced the transformer I got him to triode wire it. Peter was a nice chap and very helpful. I also used it with a pair of Snell type K’ on pirate stands, a great match. I don’t really know why I sold any of it it to be honest.

[Mikeandvan]

Emailed Peter at AN, and he said the earlier ones had 'a more gentle and pleasant sound', but both were good and can be improved with not too much hassle.

[Mikeandvan]

If I remember correctly they were both the first type, I met Peter Q, about 1989 I think, who sold me the first and when he replaced the transformer I got him to triode wire it. Peter was a nice chap and very helpful. I also used it with a pair of Snell type K’ on pirate stands, a great match. I don’t really know why I sold any of it it to be honest.

I have the AN K types, which sounded a bit flat with my Quad, I did try them with a friends valve amp and they were much better with that, then tried the valve amp with my usual speakers, and the bass was too much. It seems there are a few different ways of achieving the desired sound. Cost seems to be a rather abstract factor in it all.

[Mikeandvan]

Well I've gone for an early issue version, won't be with for a month or so yet though, paying in instalments:lol:

[AJSki2fly]

Well I've gone for an early issue version, won't be with for a month or so yet though, paying in instalments:lol:

Mike, with any luck the AI 500 should partner well with the Chario’s, hopefully it will result in a lovely smooth, detailed and musical sound that you you will love. Let us know how you get on.

If I had to downsize hifi, I think I would hunt out an AI 500 and try it with the JBL 100’s I still have, and front end it with a more sensibly priced TT with a good MM cart and isolate it well, running MC cart can be costly if you listen a lot. If the JBL’s didn’t work then I look out for something else.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike, with any luck the AI 500 should partner well with the Chario’s, hopefully it will result in a lovely smooth, detailed and musical sound that you you will love. Let us know how you get on.

If I had to downsize hifi, I think I would hunt out an AI 500 and try it with the JBL 100’s I still have, and front end it with a more sensibly priced TT with a good MM cart and isolate it well, running MC cart can be costly if you listen a lot. If the JBL’s didn’t work then I look out for something else.

I'm gonna use it with the AN Ks I acquired recently, as they don't match well with my Quad.

[AJSki2fly]

I'm gonna use it with the AN Ks I acquired recently, as they don't match well with my Quad.

Well I think that will be extremely good! I would recommend you hunt down some Pirate stands for them like these https://picclick.co.uk/Snell-Type-K-Speakers-Pirate-Stands-4-173449476671.html or similar, Audio Note sell them but I suspect they will be pricey. They are very heavy and really make a difference to the focus and depth of the sound stage, mine were filled with kiln dried sand. I used to have my Snells sat on them on 4 blobs of blue-tack as recommended by the HiFi dealer in Farnham where I got them from in 1987.

[Mikeandvan]

Well I think that will be extremely good! I would recommend you hunt down some Pirate stands for them like these https://picclick.co.uk/Snell-Type-K-Speakers-Pirate-Stands-4-173449476671.html or similar, Audio Note sell them but I suspect they will be pricey. They are very heavy and really make a difference to the focus and depth of the sound stage, mine were filled with kiln dried sand. I used to have my Snells sat on them on 4 blobs of blue-tack as recommended by the HiFi dealer in Farnham where I got them from in 1987.
I have stand very similar, got them from Bourney when he sold the Ks. Have to wait a month to hear them, though I might try them with my JVC beastie sometime.

[AJSki2fly]

I have stand very similar, got them from Bourney when he sold the Ks. Have to wait a month to hear them, though I might try them with my JVC beastie sometime.

Great, if there not that heavy and you can fill the legs with kiln dried sand, they will then be virtually immobile and you will get a 6 pack if you move them about much or a hernia[emoji33][emoji51]


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[Mikeandvan]

AI S500 coming tomorrow thanks to nice man at AOS bringing it all the way from Cornwall to Littlehampton for me. Earlier version with Hinkley transformers, hope I like it with the AN Ks, they weren't great with the JVC amp which will soon be on its way to its new owner, fabulous looking amp, but not right for me at this moment. I'll see how I get on with valves, the s500 has its own phono stage, wonder whether i'll use that or stick my Slee through a line input. If the sound grows on me then i'll look to get the amp modded to get the most out of it. Still got my 909/croft 25|Chario set up, which I've started leaving on when I go out, return 4 hours later, and I swear it sounds a fair bit better after being left on. Though as someone said on an earlier thread Quad is pipe and slippers, which I've come to realise now, after extensive listening, there are times to want the sound to blast out and no matter how high you turn the volume it just doesn't do it, still, quite pleasant for normal listening volumes.

[southall-1998_mk2]

Why get it modded? The 500 was voiced to sound a certain charming way. Just a clean level headed service, is all it needs.

S.

[Audio Al]

Why get it modded? The 500 was voiced to sound a certain charming way. Just a clean level headed service, is all it needs.

S.

To improve the sound and listening

[southall-1998_mk2]

To improve the sound and listening

Should be left well alone, IMO. But as always, each to their own.

S.

[Audio Al]

My 500 needed

New higher quality on off switch

New highar quality volume control , noisey / crackley

Remove the balance control , noise / crackley with drop out

5 new gold plated valve sockets , Original coroded and very loose

Replace aged caps and some transistors

I could go on , I think you get the idea ;)

[southall-1998_mk2]

My 500 needed

New higher quality on off switch

New highar quality volume control , noisey / crackley

Remove the balance control , noise / crackley with drop out

5 new gold plated valve sockets , Original coroded and very loose

Replace aged caps and some transistors

I could go on , I think you get the idea ;)


That sounds like a good decent service. Not one of those silly upgrade jobs. As long it's close as possible to original spec. I understand the 500 had some reliability issues?

S.

[AD Audio]

That sounds like a good decent service. Not one of those silly upgrade jobs. As long it's close as possible to original spec. I understand the 500 had some reliability issues?

S.And you could add to that my choke conversion which removes a major heat source from inside the amp, and improves overall SQ adding to the charm of the amp with no downside.....

There's not many reliability issues frankly. The screen resistors can be increased for a bit more reliability or one can add in separate cathode resistors to the shared version but they're pretty sturdy overall

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[AJSki2fly]

AI S500 coming tomorrow thanks to nice man at AOS bringing it all the way from Cornwall to Littlehampton for me. Earlier version with Hinkley transformers, hope I like it with the AN Ks, they weren't great with the JVC amp which will soon be on its way to its new owner, fabulous looking amp, but not right for me at this moment. I'll see how I get on with valves, the s500 has its own phono stage, wonder whether i'll use that or stick my Slee through a line input. If the sound grows on me then i'll look to get the amp modded to get the most out of it. Still got my 909/croft 25|Chario set up, which I've started leaving on when I go out, return 4 hours later, and I swear it sounds a fair bit better after being left on. Though as someone said on an earlier thread Quad is pipe and slippers, which I've come to realise now, after extensive listening, there are times to want the sound to blast out and no matter how high you turn the volume it just doesn't do it, still, quite pleasant for normal listening volumes.

Lovely amp, just replace volume pot with silent one and get it tri-wired and possibly replace main caps. I think you will love it, I hope so.[emoji3]


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[Spectral Morn]

I would also not use the EL34 valves switch to 5881 tubes indtead. EL34s often fail, go cheery red and blow resistors under the valve base, 6L6s another alternative, but the amp needs tweaked to run those well.

[Mikeandvan]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49667807662_a8c759363d_b.jpg[/url]IMG_20200316_221330309_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iEYuPq) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

Picked up the S500 today, haven't turned it on yet, been too busy dragging a new fridge freezer up my stairs, not easy alone! Looks like someone has stuck a little heat sink on the back? Think that's what it is!

[AD Audio]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49667807662_a8c759363d_b.jpg[/url]IMG_20200316_221330309_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iEYuPq) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

Picked up the S500 today, haven't turned it on yet, been too busy dragging a new fridge freezer up my stairs, not easy alone! Looks like someone has stuck a little heat sink on the back? Think that's what it is!

The heatsink won't be doing much at all. The main heat inside is the big dropper resistor which doesn't directly touch the rear plate. As I said before, the choke conversion replaces the big dropper and works without producing heat, thus solving the problem

[Audio Al]

Don't turn it on without speakers connected :eek:

[AJSki2fly]

I would also not use the EL34 valves switch to 5881 tubes indtead. EL34s often fail, go cheery red and blow resistors under the valve base, 6L6s another alternative, but the amp needs tweaked to run those well.

Yes that's what I did I would go for either these http://www.hotroxuk.com/psvane-12at7-t-mii-2-12at7-ecc81-matched-pair.html or http://www.hotroxuk.com/mesa-boogie-5881-str-425.html alternatively

these EL34s I found very good and replace the others with the same make http://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-kt77.html (http://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-kt77.html)

Edited to correct the EL34 equivalents, sorry my mistake

[Mikeandvan]

The heatsink won't be doing much at all. The main heat inside is the big dropper resistor which doesn't directly touch the rear plate. As I said before, the choke conversion replaces the big dropper and works without producing heat, thus solving the problem

Yer, its a bit naff innit? Just worried what else this modder has done to the insides...………..

[Mikeandvan]

This amp has el34 valves, but can't read which ones, and Flickr is down as always. Also came with a bunch of other valves that I can't make head or tail of.

[AJSki2fly]

This amp has el34 valves, but can't read which ones, and Flickr is down as always. Also came with a bunch of other valves that I can't make head or tail of.

If I recall correctly it is 4xEL34 and 2x6922 and 3xECC83, but I have a feeling the S1 and S2 may be slightly different possibly the 6922s

I am sure someone on here will know for sure, is yours a s1or s2?

[Mikeandvan]

If I recall correctly it is 4xEL34 and 2x6922 and 3xECC83, but I have a feeling the S1 and S2 may be slightly different possibly the 6922s

I am sure someone on here will know for sure, is yours a s1or s2?

s1.

[AD Audio]

I've got one in the workshop at the moment with Harma EL34s. Great sound and they are reasonable. Valve comp should be 3 X ecc83 and 2 X ecc88 or 6922. Genalex are good on both counrs. Or JJ803s

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[Barry]

A friend of mine used to have an Audio Innovations amp, and I'm sure the valve line up was: 3 x ECC83, 2 x PCC88 and 4 x EL34.

I think it was the original version.

[Spectral Morn]

Rear 4 EL34, front l to r 3 x ECC 83 and 2 ECC 88

The middle 83 needs to be a robust design, think its a regulator, if I remember correctly. Other valves are the phono stage, as the rest of the pre amp section is passive.

[AD Audio]

Rear 4 EL34, front l to r 3 x ECC 83 and 2 ECC 88

The middle 83 needs to be a robust design, think its a regulator, if I remember correctly. Other valves are the phono stage, as the rest of the pre amp section is passive.The middle ecc83 is the line stage driver valve. The left-hand two are the phono stage. There's no greater requirement for the middle valve
David

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[Mikeandvan]

If I recall correctly it is 4xEL34 and 2x6922 and 3xECC83, but I have a feeling the S1 and S2 may be slightly different possibly the 6922s

I am sure someone on here will know for sure, is yours a s1or s2?

I've managed to make out the brand of valves now, it says 'JJ' on them.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49672506611_6feec355d6_c.jpg[/url]IMG_20200317_193018543_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iFozDM) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

[Mikeandvan]

I unscrewed the 'thingy' on the back and here's what's inside, what is it? OK, I googled the part number and my massive brain tells me this might indeed be a heatsink.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49672506521_26e363cc8f_b.jpg[/url]IMG_20200318_121516984_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iFozCe) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

[AJSki2fly]

I unscrewed the 'thingy on the back and here's what's inside, what is it? OK, I googled the part number and my massive brain tells me this might indeed be a heatsink.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49672506521_26e363cc8f_b.jpg[/url]IMG_20200318_121516984_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iFozCe) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

Arcol HS50 Series Aluminium Housed Axial Wire Wound Panel Mount Resistor, 220Ω ±5% 50W. Not sure but this may be a mod which is effectively and inline choke, on the transformer. Unusual because I thought chokes tended to be a simple wire wound transformer, but I am not electronically technical.

With respect to your previous post:-

Mu first and new S500 was a S1 purchased from Farnham Audio who were AN and Snell fans, they persuaded me to upgrade the valves from JJ's to Genelux Gold Lion, the result was better separation, and smoother mid and sweeter top end. The transformer started humming after 6 months and I took it to Brighton to AN and Peter fitted a new one himself at the time and also try-wired it which was a simple mod. I ran it for +5 years with no issue with it stood on the top shelf with lots of air, yes it ran hot but was fine. I also fitted 2*6922 which make a slight difference.

IMO I would get the JJ's checked as you do not know how old they are, or if it was me I would just replace them. It probably would be wise to get it checked out and upgraded a bit and new valves. They are lovely amos and if I ever have to down size it would be my first port of call.

I stupidly sold the S1 and about 10 years later purchased a S2 secondhand, I had kept the Golden Lions and it ran wonderfully on them

[Mikeandvan]

Arcol HS50 Series Aluminium Housed Axial Wire Wound Panel Mount Resistor, 220Ω ±5% 50W. Not sure but this may be a mod which is effectively and inline choke, on the transformer. Unusual because I thought chokes tended to be a simple wire wound transformer, but I am not electronically technical.

With respect to your previous post:-

Mu first and new S500 was a S1 purchased from Farnham Audio who were AN and Snell fans, they persuaded me to upgrade the valves from JJ's to Genelux Gold Lion, the result was better separation, and smoother mid and sweeter top end. The transformer started humming after 6 months and I took it to Brighton to AN and Peter fitted a new one himself at the time and also try-wired it which was a simple mod. I ran it for +5 years with no issue with it stood on the top shelf with lots of air, yes it ran hot but was fine. I also fitted 2*6922 which make a slight difference.

IMO I would get the JJ's checked as you do not know how old they are, or if it was me I would just replace them. It probably would be wise to get it checked out and upgraded a bit and new valves. They are lovely amos and if I ever have to down size it would be my first port of call.

I stupidly sold the S1 and about 10 years later purchased a S2 secondhand, I had kept the Golden Lions and it ran wonderfully on them

Someone on the WAM said this: "You may find a large metal clad wire wound resistor the other side, one of the windings on the mains transformer most probably needed a voltage drop, don’t ask". Feeling a bit angry now, as I asked the seller was the amp in original condition and he said yes.

[AD Audio]

Someone on the WAM said this: "You may find a large metal clad wire wound resistor the other side, one of the windings on the mains transformer most probably needed a voltage drop, don’t ask". Feeling a bit angry now, as I asked the seller was the amp in original condition and he said yes.Hi, just to clarify. The amp originally has a large resistor mounted inside between two large smoothing caps. This resistor is responsible for a lot of the heat build up inside the case, consequently reducing the life of eg electrolytic capacitors.

So someone has removed this resistor and replaced it outside to remove the heat source from within. They've also uprated it from 10 or 12 watts to 50watts.

So it's not original but unless it's been done really badly I wouldn't worry about it
David

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[AJSki2fly]

Someone on the WAM said this: "You may find a large metal clad wire wound resistor the other side, one of the windings on the mains transformer most probably needed a voltage drop, don’t ask". Feeling a bit angry now, as I asked the seller was the amp in original condition and he said yes.

Mmm, well not knowing what you paid, I had a look and it seems £750 to £850 for a good one is about the going price. So if you are not happy with it and is not as described maybe you should take it back and demand your money back. If you purchased through Ebay then they will support your redress more than the seller. It really depends how you feel about it.

The resistor voltage dropper may be due to the transformer being replaced which is not unusual and making a valid adjustment as one that was a straight replacement not being available at the time. I suspect someone else on here may know about this.

[Mikeandvan]

Mmm, well not knowing what you paid, I had a look and it seems £750 to £850 for a good one is about the going price. So if you are not happy with it and is not as described maybe you should take it back and demand your money back. If you purchased through Ebay then they will support your redress more than the seller. It really depends how you feel about it.

The resistor voltage dropper may be due to the transformer being replaced which is not unusual and making a valid adjustment as one that was a straight replacement not being available at the time. I suspect someone else on here may know about this.


Hi, just to clarify. The amp originally has a large resistor mounted inside between two large smoothing caps. This resistor is responsible for a lot of the heat build up inside the case, consequently reducing the life of eg electrolytic capacitors.

So someone has removed this resistor and replaced it outside to remove the heat source from within. They've also uprated it from 10 or 12 watts to 50watts.

So it's not original but unless it's been done really badly I wouldn't worry about it
David

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Thanks chaps, seems this is a common thing with these amps, Jez over on the WAM used to work for AN and said that some of the early models had to have this adjustment after they were manufactured, or a dealer might have done it, whichever reason it all seems quite legit, so I'll plug it in later and hopefully I'll like the results! I hope the transformers are original though, that was the reason I sought out an early model! Paid £700 for it, the el34 valves are less than a year old, plus the seller gave me a few other valves too.

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks chaps, seems this is a common thing with these amps, Jez over on the WAM used to work for AN and said that some of the early models had to have this adjustment after they were manufactured, or a dealer might have done it, whichever reason it all seems quite legit, so I'll plug it in later and hopefully I'll like the results! I hope the transformers are original though, that was the reason I sought out an early model! Paid £700 for it, the el34 valves are less than a year old, plus the seller gave me a few other valves too.

Well that all sounds good, you may have been worrying unnecessarily, if you like it then I would try the Genelec Golden Lion valves when funds allow.

[Mikeandvan]

Turned this on for the first time tonight, 3 smaller valves on the right don't light up, I am using only a cd player at the moment, is this normal? It sounds ok, haven't had a proper listen yet though.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49676803488_43fd131037_c.jpg[/url]IMG_20200319_203503058_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2iFLAXS) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

[AD Audio]

Some ecc83s eg Sovteks really look like they are not working. If the music sounds right the one in the middle is working for cd. Test the phono, even with no input you should hear a rushing sound as you turn the vol up

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[Mikeandvan]

Tried the S500 with my Chario syntars, was quite nice, then with the AN K's, very lively and realistic sound, almost like hearing it live, been playing Blue Note cds, but the treble is too sharp for me, wonder if I should upgrade the CD player? Yet to hear phono, as this Nima arm is a PITA!

[AJSki2fly]

You will just be getting a more accurate reproduction now, so the adage put crap in get crap out come more into play. Don’t take that the wrong way, I am not saying your cd is crap, just any weakness or trait in a front end component will likely be highlighted more. A DAC would probably help. Give your ears time to become a customised before making decisions.

[Mikeandvan]

You will just be getting a more accurate reproduction now, so the adage put crap in get crap out come more into play. Don’t take that the wrong way, I am not saying your cd is crap, just any weakness or trait in a front end component will likely be highlighted more. A DAC would probably help. Give your ears time to become a customised before making decisions.

My cdp is ancient and could do with a service! I certainly don't want to be wasting time getting rid of amp/speakers when its the sources which are at fault. So you say the ANKs would be more revealing than the Chario Syntars?

[AJSki2fly]

Well my experience with the AN S500 with Snell Js was that it was very revealing. Initially I had a Luxman D600 CDP ( think that was the model) with valve pre-amp out, very good and smooth, I did comparisons with an Akai CDP of that time, about 88, and the Akai was top endy, a couple of years later I forked put on a Meridian 508 CDP which was a little more revealing overall than the Luxman, not necessarily worth it in retrospect.

From my experience I would say a reasonable CDP with a good modern on board DAC, or a recognised good older one as transport into a DAC is the other way to go.

From a SQ to VFM point of view for a DAC you would be hard pushed to better a Caiman Seg and then you could get a RPI with SPDIF card like HiFiBerry make, then you can use this for streaming local digital files and from the internet. This is the solution I currently use and find the SQ pretty good, especially with a service like TIDAL or using cd+ quality files, even 320kbps radio services can sound pretty good for casual listening.

With respect to you TT, cartridge, phono combo you should now be able to hear it at its best, with the S500 and AN speakers, but remember if you put a bad or not so well recorded record it’s issues may be highlighted more. However you should get a lovely musical and detailed presentation than compared to before IMO.

By the way I did replace the Snells with KEF Ref 3.2’s after 10 years and I actually came to the view that it was a mistake, on paper and reviews the KEFs should have been better and the cost 3 times as much. But actually they did not have the control and grip at the lower end that the Snells had and certainly your ANs should be similar.

Take your time to get used to it, it would be nice to hear if I am ever your way[emoji3]


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[Mikeandvan]

Well my experience with the AN S500 with Snell Js was that it was very revealing. Initially I had a Luxman D600 CDP ( think that was the model) with valve pre-amp out, very good and smooth, I did comparisons with an Akai CDP of that time, about 88, and the Akai was top endy, a couple of years later I forked put on a Meridian 508 CDP which was a little more revealing overall than the Luxman, not necessarily worth it in retrospect.

From my experience I would say a reasonable CDP with a good modern on board DAC, or a recognised good older one as transport into a DAC is the other way to go.

From a SQ to VFM point of view for a DAC you would be hard pushed to better a Caiman Seg and then you could get a RPI with SPDIF card like HiFiBerry make, then you can use this for streaming local digital files and from the internet. This is the solution I currently use and find the SQ pretty good, especially with a service like TIDAL or using cd+ quality files, even 320kbps radio services can sound pretty good for casual listening.

With respect to you TT, cartridge, phono combo you should now be able to hear it at its best, with the S500 and AN speakers, but remember if you put a bad or not so well recorded record it’s issues may be highlighted more. However you should get a lovely musical and detailed presentation than compared to before IMO.

By the way I did replace the Snells with KEF Ref 3.2’s after 10 years and I actually came to the view that it was a mistake, on paper and reviews the KEFs should have been better and the cost 3 times as much. But actually they did not have the control and grip at the lower end that the Snells had and certainly your ANs should be similar.

Take your time to get used to it, it would be nice to hear if I am ever your way[emoji3]


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Thanks as ever for your great advice. Listening briefly to Dusty in Memphis, I say briefly, this is the third time I've played it! The sound is probably the most pleasing I've heard this recording. Greater clarity, a slightly toppy sound in places though, the whispers at the end of the words she sings trailing a bit, I think that is obviously the lack of bass, in which case I'd need to rearrange my room to get the speakers tighter in the corners. Be good to hear your opinion if you're ever down this way. I will have to sort out a better cdp though when funds allow. Currently using a Mission pcm 7000, which I do prefer to my Pioneer PD-8700, I've got a Dac -01 tucked away somewhere too which I've yet to plug in!

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks as ever for your great advice. Listening briefly to Dusty in Memphis, I say briefly, this is the third time I've played it! The sound is probably the most pleasing I've heard this recording. Greater clarity, a slightly toppy sound in places though, the whispers at the end of the words she sings trailing a bit, I think that is obviously the lack of bass, in which case I'd need to rearrange my room to get the speakers tighter in the corners. Be good to hear your opinion if you're ever down this way. I will have to sort out a better cdp though when funds allow. Currently using a Mission pcm 7000, which I do prefer to my Pioneer PD-8700, I've got a Dac -01 tucked away somewhere too which I've yet to plug in!

Great, have you tried your TT yet, if you have a favourite album on CD and Vinyl, it may be good to compare the two, although this can be tricky if not from the same master and what was done when futon CD. It will give you an idea though. Experiment with the toe in, I only used to have mine at about 10 degrees overall.

[Spectral Morn]

The middle ecc83 is the line stage driver valve. The left-hand two are the phono stage. There's no greater requirement for the middle valve
David

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When I tube rolled my 500 back in the day I did find some brands of 83 produced noise when in the middle section, its too long ago to recall which. I tried Mullards, Gold Aero and others I can’t recall.

[Mikeandvan]

Great, have you tried your TT yet, if you have a favourite album on CD and Vinyl, it may be good to compare the two, although this can be tricky if not from the same master and what was done when futon CD. It will give you an idea though. Experiment with the toe in, I only used to have mine at about 10 degrees overall.

Still haven't gotten around to setting up either of my TT's yet, but been listening a fair bit today and yesterday to CDs, and this is the best I've ever heard jazz, these speakers seem to suit my room well, apart from a slight shrillness in upper treble, like high pitched wind instruments, hoping a different cdp would sought that. An 'in the room' feel when it comes to instruments, sounding 'live', looking forward to more listening with this combo now, need to change room around too, so speakers can go into corners to get more bass.

[Made in 1968]

Audio Innovations '300' Mk.1. was a good amp.

[AJSki2fly]

Still haven't gotten around to setting up either of my TT's yet, but been listening a fair bit today and yesterday to CDs, and this is the best I've ever heard jazz, these speakers seem to suit my room well, apart from a slight shrillness in upper treble, like high pitched wind instruments, hoping a different cdp would sought that. An 'in the room' feel when it comes to instruments, sounding 'live', looking forward to more listening with this combo now, need to change room around too, so speakers can go into corners to get more bass.

Bass is subjective, the ANs are renowned for being very accurate. The thing is that being accurate means that the bass will be tight and defined, it will probably not be what you are familiar with, which is slightly flabby and bloated, but not right. If you move the speakers into corners you are likely badly re-enforce the bass creating a muddle sound. My advise is take your time getting used to how it sounds and then make small incremental changes with speaker position. It might take a couple of weeks or so.


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[Mikeandvan]

Bass is subjective, the ANs are renowned for being very accurate. The thing is that being accurate means that the bass will be tight and defined, it will probably not be what you are familiar with, which is slightly flabby and bloated, but not right. If you move the speakers into corners you are likely badly re-enforce the bass creating a muddle sound. My advise is take your time getting used to how it sounds and then make small incremental changes with speaker position. It might take a couple of weeks or so.


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I thought the advice was to have these in corners? Doesn't matter for now anyway, listening to Cannonball Adderley 'Something else', and its sublime. Nice big soundstage.

[AJSki2fly]

Who said put them in the corners, let alone any other speaker. Basic acoustics means that you will create relfelct and false re-enforcements that will mean you loose clarity and definition, in the case of bass in the worst case BOOM. So by all means move the speakers but start at the best usual position for your room and then experiment to see if it improves, sometimes a small movement like 1” forward, back or either way sideways can have a surprising change. Also you might want to move your listening position back or forwards, but I think I recall you saying it was fixed so in that case it the speaker position to optimise within what is practical.

[Mikeandvan]

Who said put them in the corners, let alone any other speaker. Basic acoustics means that you will create relfelct and false re-enforcements that will mean you loose clarity and definition, in the case of bass in the worst case BOOM. So by all means move the speakers but start at the best usual position for your room and then experiment to see if it improves, sometimes a small movement like 1” forward, back or either way sideways can have a surprising change. Also you might want to move your listening position back or forwards, but I think I recall you saying it was fixed so in that case it the speaker position to optimise within what is practical.

It must be unique to these speakers cos there is a fair bit of advice out there about corner placement for the ANK's, mind you I will just use my ears and experiment, as every room is different. Playing some more cds now, and its not sounding so good tonight, tried some Hendrix then some Jazz with flute, and it really seems to struggle with the high trebles, had to turn if off, was hurting my ears! Strange as everybody recommends the ANks as the answer to stridency problems in a system. Well, ain't gonna be able to afford a better cdp for some time, so just gonna have to avoid those high pitched wind instruments for a while...…...But I even wonder would a better (or just different) cdp work, will set up TT tomorrow if I get time and see how that sounds. Whats the phono stage on these like? Doubt it will better my G Slee era v.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed it was/is! :)
Audio Innovations '300' Mk.1. was a good amp.

[Mikeandvan]

Played Miles Davis, kind of blue, it was unlistenable, time to plug the Charios back in, yawn.

[AJSki2fly]

When I tube rolled my 500 back in the day I did find some brands of 83 produced noise when in the middle section, its too long ago to recall which. I tried Mullards, Gold Aero and others I can’t recall.

Hi Mike,

I find it bit odd you find the ANs bright, but it might be due to your listening preferences and what you are used to.

Have a read of https://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-an-kspe-speakers-review/ paying particular attention to the positioning of them as mentioned, this may help.

Some review comment may explain what you are finding see http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/audio-note/an-k.html

It might be work persevering for a bit before discounting them.

Cheers, and Stay Safe

Adrian

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike,

I find it bit odd you find the ANs bright, but it might be due to your listening preferences and what you are used to.

Have a read of https://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-an-kspe-speakers-review/ paying particular attention to the positioning of them as mentioned, this may help.

Some review comment may explain what you are finding see http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/audio-note/an-k.html

It might be work persevering for a bit before discounting them.

Cheers, and Stay Safe

Adrian

Thanks for that Adrian. I love these speakers, just the higher trebles are too sharp. Peter from AN suggested my CDP or speaker cables may be at fault, but I changed cables to apparently more forgiving ones and not a lot of difference, so CDP next, tomorrow I should finally get time to reset my tonearm, there's nothing else to do!!

[AJSki2fly]

What CDP do you have? Cables can also make a difference, as I am sure you know anything with silver can be edgy.

It just may be that now you have a good amp and speaker combo that is neutral and transparent any front end issues will now show up more.


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[Mikeandvan]

What CDP do you have? Cables can also make a difference, as I am sure you know anything with silver can be edgy.

It just may be that now you have a good amp and speaker combo that is neutral and transparent any front end issues will now show up more.


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Using an ancient Mission PCM 7000, should probably get it serviced or just buy a newer cdp.

[Bourney]

Mike have you tried toe in so that they cross around 2ft in front of you? Might look odd at first but diffuses the top end and smoothes it out, seems to work with ks nicely.

[AJSki2fly]

Using an ancient Mission PCM 7000, should probably get it serviced or just buy a newer cdp.

Have a read of this and note "Low frequencies were well-defined, the treble was lightish in balance, though a little reticent in the top octave, and stereo imaging was spacious and well-defined.". It depends what the reviewer meant by reticent but he could mean crisp, which might explain your issues. If I recall correctly some 16bit oversampling CDPs at the time were known to have sound issues. Time for a new CDP if the system sounds good with the LP spinner.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike have you tried toe in so that they cross around 2ft in front of you? Might look odd at first but diffuses the top end and smoothes it out, seems to work with ks nicely.

Yer, been listening all day like that, no difference really. May'be I should get a new cdp! This amp is lovely with voices though, listening to Scott Walker now, best I've heard it.

[Mikeandvan]

Have a read of this and note "Low frequencies were well-defined, the treble was lightish in balance, though a little reticent in the top octave, and stereo imaging was spacious and well-defined.". It depends what the reviewer meant by reticent but he could mean crisp, which might explain your issues. If I recall correctly some 16bit oversampling CDPs at the time were known to have sound issues. Time for a new CDP if the system sounds good with the LP spinner.

Yeh it was an expensive player in its day, probably just needs a service, I have a Topping dac 01 I must try sometime. Even though I gripe about the treble, this is the most I've ever enjoyed music, think I'm a lifelong valve fan now.

[Audio Al]

Nice when a newcomer to the 500 enjoys the experience , Enjoy Mr Van ;)

[Audio Al]

What CDP do you have? Cables can also make a difference, as I am sure you know anything with silver can be edgy.

It just may be that now you have a good amp and speaker combo that is neutral and transparent any front end issues will now show up more.



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Oh NO ! :sofa:

[Mikeandvan]

Nice when a newcomer to the 500 enjoys the experience , Enjoy Mr Van ;)

Cheers, do you reckon the mods you had done on yours were worth it? I'm in Brighton so I may just return it to its maker for a service - Audionote as they still have a showroom here (not that you'd know from the outside!).

[Audio Al]

Cheers, do you reckon the mods you had done on yours were worth it? I'm in Brighton so I may just return it to its maker for a service - Audionote as they still have a showroom here (not that you'd know from the outside!).

Contact David at AD audio first for a chat re service / upgrades , he did my 500 , no complaints " So far " :D

[Mikeandvan]

Only just got around to getting my TT set up and the ANks seem to be even worse with that than with cd. So I put my Chario Syntars back in and heh ho, much better. Just a much more rounded sound, admittedly I didn't manage to get the ANks right in a corner yet as that is supposed to accentuate bass, but the overall sound is so far away from what I want I see little point in trying. I do like the up front live sound of the Ks, but they're just too hard/bright/unbalanced. The Syntars are quite nice, but would like some of what the Ks did in there too. Of course I'm now listening to the Syntars with the AI S500 valve integrated as i've now sold my Croft/Quad 909 combo, and that has made them more enjoyable.

[AJSki2fly]

Only just got around to getting my TT set up and the ANks seem to be even worse with that than with cd. So I put my Chario Syntars back in and heh ho, much better. Just a much more rounded sound, admittedly I didn't manage to get the ANks right in a corner yet as that is supposed to accentuate bass, but the overall sound is so far away from what I want I see little point in trying. I do like the up front live sound of the Ks, but they're just too hard/bright/unbalanced. The Syntars are quite nice, but would like some of what the Ks did in there too. Of course I'm now listening to the Syntars with the AI S500 valve integrated as i've now sold my Croft/Quad 909 combo, and that has made them more enjoyable.

Not certain what is going on hear, but I suspect possibly two maybe three aspects. First you are used to the Charios and their sound signature, second your room may be accentuating brightness(not enough soft furnishings, lots of reflective surfaces), your hearing my be low on the bass end. Or finally you might just like lots of bass!

This review of the Charios points out “ In terms of tonal balance we can note a slight priority of the extreme top, a bit emphasizing subtle airy components. The middle is pleasantly fresh and well-balanced in terms of timbres, allowing you to imagine the sound of natural instruments with high degree of veracity. Drums and attack do not cause doubts, but in the very bottom the control of basses is slightly weakened. We liked the work of tweeter, but at high volume you can notice aggressive notes.”

So this says top can be exaggerated but at the same time bass control is a little loose. So maybe when you hear the ANs it’s not what your brain expects.

I did an experiment about a year ago where I measured the sound characteristics of our room with REW software. I then worked out the 1st and second order bass emphasis caused by the room, and using software on Audirvana tuning out those frequencies, these were at 62hz and 125hz. This was using narrow band filter at each to lower each by 15dB. The impact was profound, the music sounded odd and dulled, an article I read on this warned that it could take 3 to 5 days of listening before your brain became used to the new sound, but the benefit would be more accurate bass and overall sound.

I persevered for a week and it did start to sound better and I could hear more detail generally, but I missed some bass warmth so I reverted to the original.

So the point is you might just like a more bass rich sound, lots of people do.

[Bourney]

The Ks are a hot up top sound, you cant get away from that. For me it translates as light and airy but I can imagine how it is seen as sharp with horns.

[Audio Al]

I don't like hot up top / bright , that sound almost makes my ears bleed :(

[Bourney]

The AI500 should smooth it out nicely, as does my AN Soro SE. I have had them sounding sharp with SS or EL84 amps previously. Awful with a leben cs300 bizarrely.

[Mikeandvan]

I don't like hot up top / bright , that sound almost makes my ears bleed :(

What speakers do you use?

[Mikeandvan]

Not certain what is going on hear, but I suspect possibly two maybe three aspects. First you are used to the Charios and their sound signature, second your room may be accentuating brightness(not enough soft furnishings, lots of reflective surfaces), your hearing my be low on the bass end. Or finally you might just like lots of bass!

This review of the Charios points out “ In terms of tonal balance we can note a slight priority of the extreme top, a bit emphasizing subtle airy components. The middle is pleasantly fresh and well-balanced in terms of timbres, allowing you to imagine the sound of natural instruments with high degree of veracity. Drums and attack do not cause doubts, but in the very bottom the control of basses is slightly weakened. We liked the work of tweeter, but at high volume you can notice aggressive notes.”

So this says top can be exaggerated but at the same time bass control is a little loose. So maybe when you hear the ANs it’s not what your brain expects.

I did an experiment about a year ago where I measured the sound characteristics of our room with REW software. I then worked out the 1st and second order bass emphasis caused by the room, and using software on Audirvana tuning out those frequencies, these were at 62hz and 125hz. This was using narrow band filter at each to lower each by 15dB. The impact was profound, the music sounded odd and dulled, an article I read on this warned that it could take 3 to 5 days of listening before your brain became used to the new sound, but the benefit would be more accurate bass and overall sound.

I persevered for a week and it did start to sound better and I could hear more detail generally, but I missed some bass warmth so I reverted to the original.

So the point is you might just like a more bass rich sound, lots of people do.

Probably is something to do with my room, I'd love to move, but not an option at the minute. Been swapping the 2 sets of speakers around for the past few hours, and the amaze at times with insight and clarity, and I quite like their lean bass, but at other times unlistenable due to high treble and an almost thin overall sound. Not sure where to look next.

[Audio Al]

What speakers do you use?

Depends what day of the month it is

[AJSki2fly]

Probably is something to do with my room, I'd love to move, but not an option at the minute. Been swapping the 2 sets of speakers around for the past few hours, and the amaze at times with insight and clarity, and I quite like their lean bass, but at other times unlistenable due to high treble and an almost thin overall sound. Not sure where to look next.

As I said to Al look at these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-Reference-Model-3-Speakers/254539539394?hash=item3b43bd23c2:g:Fm4AAOSw2j5ea5C z

I had a pair with the A500, you’ll like top end and bass[emoji41]job done[emoji8]

[Audio Al]

As I said to Al look at these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-Reference-Model-3-Speakers/254539539394?hash=item3b43bd23c2:g:Fm4AAOSw2j5ea5C z

I had a pair with the A500, you’ll like top end and bass[emoji41]job done[emoji8]

no tweeters ? :scratch:

[Lawrence001]

As I said to Al look at these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-Reference-Model-3-Speakers/254539539394?hash=item3b43bd23c2:g:Fm4AAOSw2j5ea5C z

I had a pair with the A500, you’ll like top end and bass[emoji41]job done[emoji8]They were mine he said he really wanted a pair and we spent ages talking about the sound and amplification options. He then persuaded me to knock them down to about £600 and stuck them on eBay an hour later for about £1.7k.

[Mikeandvan]

As I said to Al look at these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-Reference-Model-3-Speakers/254539539394?hash=item3b43bd23c2:g:Fm4AAOSw2j5ea5C z

I had a pair with the A500, you’ll like top end and bass[emoji41]job done[emoji8]

I had the ref 2, but that was before I had the s500, used them with the Quad/croft and I found them rather uninvolving and quite unmusical.

[AJSki2fly]

no tweeters ? :scratch:

Look at https://us.kef.com/explore-kef/kef-museum/1990s/reference-series-models-one-two-three-four

If I recall correctly the tweeter sits in the middle of the B160 Midrange unit

https://us.kef.com/pub/media/pdf/Reference_Series_Models_One_to_Four_r.pdf

Specification: Model Three
System type: Four-way, floor standing
Enclosure type: Twin coupled cavity
Size: 1137 x 275 x 340mm (44.8 x 10.8 x 13.4 inches)
Weight: 35kg (77 lb)
Nominal Impedance: 4ohms
Amplifier requirements: 50-300W
Frequency response: 40Hz to 20kHz +/-3dB at 2m on reference axis
Sensitivity: 91dB at 1m/2.83V (anechoic conditions)
Maximum output: 115dB on programme peaks under typical listening conditions
System: SP3187
Drive units: 2 x B200 bass unit (SP1343), B160 lower midrange unit (SP1348), B160 midrange unit (SP1345), NT25 tweeter (SP1353)
Crossover: SP2225
System: SP3246 (with boundary compensation device)
Drive units: 2 x B200 bass unit (SP1343), B160 lower midrange unit (SP1348), B160 midrange unit (SP1345), NT25 tweeter (SP1353)
Crossover: SP2256

[AJSki2fly]

They were mine he said he really wanted a pair and we spent ages talking about the sound and amplification options. He then persuaded me to knock them down to about £600 and stuck them on eBay an hour later for about £1.7k.

That certainly is not very nice

[Mikeandvan]

S500 now with David being serviced/modded. Swapped the K's back with their original owner for some mid 90s? AN Js in lovely condition, gonna wait till I get the S500 back to try them though. Be interesting to hear the difference between them and the ks, the J's are a fair bit bigger than I imagined.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49923443203_f1a2a5d4c1.jpg[/url]IMG_20200522_204447792 (https://flic.kr/p/2j4yGmK) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

[AJSki2fly]

S500 now with David being serviced/modded. Swapped the K's back with their original owner for some mid 90s? AN Js in lovely condition, gonna wait till I get the S500 back to try them though. Be interesting to hear the difference between them and the ks, the J's are a fair bit bigger than I imagined.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49923443203_f1a2a5d4c1.jpg[/url]IMG_20200522_204447792 (https://flic.kr/p/2j4yGmK) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]

Have you go the amp back yet?

[AD Audio]

Not quite, had an issue with a brand new selector switch having an intermittent fault [emoji3525] replacement en route to me [emoji16]

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