Electric cars, and the national grid!

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,
Something i have had a Bee in my bonnet about for a while now, Electric cars,:scratch: and the posibility of all of us being able to transfer over to using one within the next 15 years or so.
I, as i am sure there are many others here who have given the logistics some thought; think it a near imposibilty for it to work with our current infer-structure, i was listening to radio 2 this morning, where they were discusing that very topic, and one guy put things into perspective; he said and i quote; if just one person in every household in Britain who currently use a car was to change to a fully electric vehicle; at 6-00pm when most are home from work, and therefore are wanting to plug in the car to re-charge, it would quite posibly cause a widespread blackout, now,,,he went on the explain that for it to have any chance of working, we would need at least another 4 nuclear power stations, or around 9 fossil fuel power stations to cope. The so called informed one on there making the arguement for the electric car explained; well you may plug your car in at that time, but it won't get charged untill the grid can cope, and also; if the charging system detects that you have a near full battery, there is a posibilty that the charging system may even take energy from your batteries to supply the grid, or to charge batteries in other cars on the same system!
Now, anyone who has thought about this, and have an idea of how much energy electric cars currently need to deliver any sort of useable mileage, will have realised that its a lot, and therefore the electricity needed, or should i say; the Kilowatt hour it takes to in affect reverse the chemical reaction of the battery, and therefore; allow the battery to re-charge, is many kilowatts, for hours. therefore some of the so called fast charger systems currently used to charge these cars are on par with leaving your shower on for hour after hour, i know they are relying on the fact that many cars wont need to be re-charged from scratch,ie, they may still have half charge, but come on, as more and more of us are expected to go over to this technology;how many cars are eventually going to need to be fully charged on a regular basis ?
I know this post is a bit of a rant, but its one of those subjects that has been annoying me now for a few years, and there still doesent seem to be any answers coming forward that look to me as sustainable long term answers that i can see, ofcourse there's Hydrogen technology too, but again; what energy source are they going to use to create that ? :scratch:
Please join in and discuss.

[CageyH]

You are forgetting the enviromental impact of the battery as well. Will the post Brexit UK be able to import power from Europe at a reasonable.cost, like it does now?

Will the government price the normal.person out of car ownership, forcing the majority back to public transport?

Interesting tomes are ahead for sure.

[struth]

battery tech is improving all time and a new lithium/oxygen version has been made to work, so that tech will no doubt get followed up now more vigorously.
10 years from now we might not recognise the tech; or of course it might just be all smoke and mirrors from the politicians, which is actually quite likely

[anthonyTD]

Ohh, i understand that aspect of it too,:) but the actual logistics of things, as far as the energy side, is where my main concerns are, as far as this thread is concerned, for now anyway!
You are forgetting the enviromental impact of the battery as well. Will the post Brexit UK be able to import power from Europe at a reasonable.cost, like it does now?

Will the government price the normal.person out of car ownership, forcing the majority back to public transport?

Interesting tomes are ahead for sure.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed Grant, but you still have to get the energy to charge the battery, its all relevant i know, but untill you make things much much more efficient than they currently are, you will still need the same energy to travel 1 mile at a time.
battery tech is improving all time and a new lithium/oxygen version has been made to work, so that tech will no doubt get followed up now more vigorously.
10 years from now we might not recognise the tech; or of course it might just be all smoke and mirrors from the politicians, which is actually quite likely

[CageyH]

Supercapacitors are one possible solution.
The national grid will need a major upgrade for sure.

[struth]

Indeed Grant, but you still have to get the energy to charge the battery, its all relevant i know, but untill you make things much much more efficient than they currently are, you will still need the same energy to travel 1 mile at a time.

current thinking is that hydrogen is a non starter, so that leaves batteries, or no cars at all...we could go back to horses but they probably produce more pollution overall than cars. hence the smoke and mirrors... they are just playing a political game

[walpurgis]

Now of course, is the time to invest in an old school, non-turbo diesel car. A nice low mileage example.

Diesel commercial and farming vehicles will be around for years yet, so fuel won't be in short supply.

A good solid Golf or Polo 1.9 circa 2005 should do nicely. 60 mpg and bulletproof mechanics and spares will not be a problem.

The natural attrition of other diesel cars will set in soon, so any environmental arguments will rather fall down.

[Ali Tait]

https://i.imgur.com/jwB3AHi.jpg

[struth]

You are forgetting the enviromental impact of the battery as well. Will the post Brexit UK be able to import power from Europe at a reasonable.cost, like it does now?

Will the government price the normal.person out of car ownership, forcing the majority back to public transport?

Interesting tomes are ahead for sure.

sure that is a possible intention.. of course they will have problems with moving workers etc, but of course politicians wont have that worry.. im glad i will be dead

[Macca]

I don't think the mass-market will move beyond petrol/electric hybrids, at least not in the next, say, 30 years, so the problem will never arise.

The gov are not interested in pricing people off the road as vehicle manufacture is an essential part of the economy, on the contrary thanks to PCP it has never been cheaper to 'buy' a new car.

[Ammonite Audio]

Vocal supporters of electric transportation will point out that the grid can be actively managed and balanced using smart metering to determine when vehicles should (ideally) charge, preferably using excess renewable power, and that vehicle-to-grid systems can suck energy from cars back into the grid when needed. All correct, up to a point, but if EV adoption is to reach the levels required to meet government targets, then clearly overall demand for electricity will increase enormously. I suspect that energy saving across industries and housing due to efficient lighting, appliances etc have already gone as far as is practicable, so future increased energy demands due to EVs will have to come from increased generation, in whatever form that may be.

My concerns over EVs are that rather wealthy and vocal supporters (eg Fully Charged on YouTube) don't seem to accept that this us all too expensive for most people and that we don't all have detached houses with big roofs for solar PV, and garages for Tesla Powerwalls, and the sums don't show that actually owning an EV is any less expensive than an ICE car. EVs in urban environments, where travelling distance is a handful of miles per day, are very much a good thing and that's where the government's emphasis should be directed - for anyone who undertakes even a few longish journeys a month, EVs become less attractive. The evangelists will tell me that public charging infrastructure is now pretty good, and that charging times are relatively short, but that does not take into account increasing demand for public charging and how long we might have to wait for a charger (if it is working). The genius of Elon Musk and Tesla was to plan and develop the charging infrastructure before the cars, so Tesla owners are possibly the only ones who can indeed contemplate regular long journeys, since Tesla Supercharger stations have many chargers and they seem to work. On top of that, leasing a Tesla Model 3 is about the same each month as leasing a BMW 320d, so this is a rare example of an EV that makes a financial case for itself (just click around Select Car Leasing's site to see the figures for other EVs, against equivalent ICE cars).

I hope that some common sense gets brought in with regard to zero emissions transportation, which for heavy good vehicles, trains etc might be better served by hydrogen power (which can be generated from surplus renewable electricity and stored relatively conveniently). The government's 2035 target is ambitious, but it will certainly create perverse incentives for people who cannot afford the new EV dream to hang onto old cars (which might not be a bad thing if new ones aren't being created to replace them). Ultimately, democracy might intervene when people realise that they cannot afford independent and convenient personal transport, while the smug elite waft around in their (electrified) Zil limousines.

[walpurgis]

There is no such thing as zero emmissions transport. Electric cars are energised by fuel used elsewhere.

[Ali Tait]

I don't think the mass-market will move beyond petrol/electric hybrids, at least not in the next, say, 30 years, so the problem will never arise.

The gov are not interested in pricing people off the road as vehicle manufacture is an essential part of the economy, on the contrary thanks to PCP it has never been cheaper to 'buy' a new car.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123

[Marco]

Just continue buying second-hand, and worry not, if you don't want to be forced into being a sheep...;)

Besides, most of the oldies posting on here won't be driving in 15 years time, so they have nothing to worry about!!:D

Marco.

[Stryder5]

You can only have a home EV charging station IF you have off-road parking.

What will replace the revenue from petrol, diesel etc sales? Added tax on electricity. How will revenue on car electricity be collected?

Just a few questions, many more.

Gary

[Ammonite Audio]

You can only have a home EV charging station IF you have off-road parking.

What will replace the revenue from petrol, diesel etc sales? Added tax on electricity. How will revenue on car electricity be collected?

Just a few questions, many more.

Gary

Most likely road pricing

[Firebottle]

Electricity demand is going to far outstrip supply if we all have to forced into electric vehicles.

Chargers can be 7kW, 11kW or 22kW. Who's going to want a weany one, everyone will want there vehicle charged pronto.
Also something like 80-85% of council vehicles are diesel and there are NO viable alternatives at the moment. What happens when these can't be replaced and services start to slip?

[prestonchipfryer]

Most of the oldies posting on here won't be driving in 15 years time, so they have nothing to worry about!!:D

Marco.

That'll be me then. :eyebrows:

[Audio Al]

Just continue buying second-hand, and worry not, if you don't want to be forced into being a sheep...;)

Besides, most of the oldies posting on here won't be driving in 15 years time, so they have nothing to worry about!!:D

Marco.

NO NO NO not anywhere near Wrexham :eek::nono:

[Audio Al]

I purchased a Nissan Leaf , Yes it was me :D

Had it for about 10 weeks now , Charge it twice a week and acording to my British Gas smart meter I use £0.40p per hour when charging using the 13 amp slow home charger , Takes 10 hours to full capacity , £4.00 :) I can drive 71 miles and still have 20 miles in reserve , Works for me and is mega cheap,
I had a Fiat Panda 1.3 diesel that did 60 MPG at a cost of £6.00
Overall I am more than happy with the vehicle ;)

[Stryder5]

Also something like 80-85% of council vehicles are diesel and there are NO viable alternatives at the moment. What happens when these can't be replaced and services start to slip?

I can hear it now “Well it was only a target, and we always knew there would be exceptions”. The comments will be straight from the TV program Yes Minister.

Gary

[ianlenco]

Besides, most of the oldies posting on here won't be driving in 15 years time, so they have nothing to worry about!!:D

Marco.

Well, if I'm spared I will be driving an electric vehicle - a mobility scooter :lol:

As it happens we recently changed our car and I seriously looked into electric vehicles. We live in a rural area but most of our journeys are relatively short so it might of worked OK but then I thought about visiting family and friends and being stuck in traffic jams without heating/air conditioning and I dismissed the idea. If the future makes electric car ownership viable I'll go for it but my sceptical head says this is wishful thinking.

[Landloper]

27312

[anthonyTD]

Good posts so far,
I think everyone who has contributed are switched on enough to realise the current plan cannot possibly work, however; there is another alternative to the usual battery technology, fully charged replaceable types, ie; you use the energy created by the chemical reaction, and instead of using silly amounts of energy in an attempt to reverse the process [that's basicaly what we are doing each time we re-charge a battery] we simply replace the used battery with a e new fully charged one, there is a guy who has spent the last 10 years or so developing such a battery, its made from aluminium, which is 100% re-cyclable, and uses an electrolyte which is harmless, in demonstations he even drinks a small amount to prove his point, can't remember the guy's name, but i am sure you can find the info on the world wide web, also; what happend to Graphene battery technology ?

[struth]

Well, if I'm spared I will be driving an electric vehicle - a mobility scooter :lol:

As it happens we recently changed our car and I seriously looked into electric vehicles. We live in a rural area but most of our journeys are relatively short so it might of worked OK but then I thought about visiting family and friends and being stuck in traffic jams without heating/air conditioning and I dismissed the idea. If the future makes electric car ownership viable I'll go for it but my sceptical head says this is wishful thinking.

ive both... a hybrid and a scooter in back of it.... hybrid works well, especially as most of my mileage is local. I could have used a plug in electric but they were too expensive. Ive an electric hoist in back too that lifts the scooter in/out.. i lose a rear seat plus middle but its fair exchange

[walpurgis]

Allegedly, one big ocean going container ship puts more crud into the atmosphere than all cars in the UK running together. I can believe it, modern cars are extremely clean running.

This 'need' for electric cars is about control, they will be able to switch off any or all electric vehicles on a whim. I gather that's possible now. Any unrest and they just turn your area off.

[AJSki2fly]

Please do not get me started. There are several major issues relating to cars that no one seems to be addressing or are carefully avoiding as the truth is just too scary.


You need the equivalent of about 10 additional power stations to be able to charge around 30 million cars and currently we are are only about 50% renewable energy efficient from windmill turbines, sea/wave an hydro at present, so I'd like to know where the rest is coming from.

Where is all the Lithium coming from to make the batteries, this is a limited world resource, and no one has found a good alternative as far as I am aware, also where is the spent stuff going to be stored/dealt with,
How do you put a fire out when an electric vehicle goes up, which they will in a serious accident, as it need to be starved of oxygen to stop it. So who is addressing the safety issue?
Why is no one addressing the major issue of all the cargo ships throwing out vastest amounts of crap into the atmosphere.



I could go on

[Audio Al]

Please do not get me started. There are several major issues relating to cars that no one seems to be addressing or are carefully avoiding as the truth is just too scary.


You need the equivalent of about 10 additional power stations to be able to charge around 30 million cars and currently we are are only about 50% renewable energy efficient from windmill turbines, sea/wave an hydro at present, so I'd like to know where the rest is coming from.

Where is all the Lithium coming from to make the batteries, this is a limited world resource, and no one has found a good alternative as far as I am aware, also where is the spent stuff going to be stored/dealt with,
How do you put a fire out when an electric vehicle goes up, which they will in a serious accident, as it need to be starved of oxygen to stop it. So who is addressing the safety issue?
Why is no one addressing the major issue of all the cargo ships throwing out vastest amounts of crap into the atmosphere.



I could go on

Ask Greta Thunberg , She should know :lol:

[Made in 1968]

What about Home Solar panel Technology improving to create enough power to power the house & car. I know that is a lot of panels but as i say the Technology needs advancing.. I believe a 100% electric car is not an ace idea.

[walpurgis]

Of course, all will be well once cold fusion is mastered. Limitless virtually free power for all........ As if! :rolleyes:

[AJSki2fly]

What about Home Solar panel Technology improving to create enough power to power the house & car. I know that is a lot of panels but as i say the Technology needs advancing.. I believe a 100% electric car is not an ace idea.

What about all the resources and nasty gases/carbon to produce millions/billions of panels, and by the way they have a useful life of 15-20 years at present?

[struth]

trick really is like in most things; a compromise of both.. the all change scenario is not really at oment viable anywhere in europe, Especially when aircraft are zigzagging the skies and container ships pile in day after day... Electric arctics delivering the tesco food etc... not going to happen, and what are we going to do with all the old stuff... what do we do with 30 million battery systems every 7 years. at least 50% is non recyclable. Rare metals are getting rarer... hydrogen tech has been abandoned by toyota as it is not feasable.
as was stated we really dont have the spare electric capacity, nor does anywhere else. If we are not careful we will end up in dark ages again.. well the younger ones will.

[Made in 1968]

Technology is nasty period

[Made in 1968]

tbh im glad i wont be here in the future cos to be frank the prospects are fackin joke. 2020 & were so unadvanced its unreal.

[walpurgis]

These days, where there's a buck to be made, everything is dressed up to look 'environmentally responsible', even when it's bullshit!

Could never quite spin that with fracking though, that was going to be bad news from the off. No doubt the Yanks will apply the pressure again now Boris has a free(ish) hand.

[AJSki2fly]

I thought someone had proved hydrogen fuel cells to be a viable option?

Just that the carbon fuel producers and car manufacturers did not like it as it was so clean and efficient it significantly lowered the opportunity to make servicing and replacement costs once fully implemented and it can be applied to anything which needs power, including electricity generation or heat. Just think about it no need to have all that oil/gas infrastructure all over the world, it would wipe off trillions of the stock markets. Just need to create hydrogen to recharge fuel cells.

[Ammonite Audio]

trick really is like in most things; a compromise of both.. the all change scenario is not really at oment viable anywhere in europe, Especially when aircraft are zigzagging the skies and container ships pile in day after day... Electric arctics delivering the tesco food etc... not going to happen, and what are we going to do with all the old stuff... what do we do with 30 million battery systems every 7 years. at least 50% is non recyclable. Rare metals are getting rarer... hydrogen tech has been abandoned by toyota as it is not feasable.
as was stated we really dont have the spare electric capacity, nor does anywhere else. If we are not careful we will end up in dark ages again.. well the younger ones will.

Not correct. Toyota have only recently shown a new concept version of their Mirai hydrogen fuel cell powered car, (https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/articles-news-events/2019/new-mirai-concept) which is less scary looking than the old one, and shows that Toyota have not given up on hydrogen. Good for them, I say! Incidentally James May is running an older Mirai alongside a Tesla Model S to find out which technology will ultimately be best, at least for him. Take a look at the DriveTribe video below:

https://youtu.be/GaIW5CQQ3Zo

[Marco]

This 'need' for electric cars is about control, they will be able to switch off any or all electric vehicles on a whim. I gather that's possible now. Any unrest and they just turn your area off.

Exactly!!

Did everyone read that?? If not, read it again and allow it to SINK IN, as that will eventually become the REALITY!

Insidious mind control/brainwashing by the establishment is the very reason that this new 'electric car' technology was invented, so don't be taken in and CONTROLLED, rather than remaining as a free-thinker and staying *in control*.

Subservient robot or a free-thinking human being? It's still your choice, but not for long!

Marco.

[Marco]

Technology is nasty period

Technology has given you the things you like in this world, dude, including what's in your avatar!;)

But I know what you mean... New technology, as opposed from old.

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

Exactly!!

Did everyone read that?? If not, read it again and allow it to SINK IN, as that will eventually become the REALITY!

Insidious mind control/brainwashing by the establishment is the very reason that this new 'electric car' technology was invented, so don't be taken in and CONTROLLED, rather than remaining as a free-thinker and staying *in control*.

Subservient robot or a free-thinking human being? It's still your choice, but not for long!

Marco.

I suspect that capability is already in quite a few cars with modern interactive technology whether electric or not, through the interaction GPS technology built into the things.

[Marco]

Possibly, Adrian, but it's simply about staying in control as far as possible, and the best way of staying in control is (when and where possible) remaining off-grid and refusing to be 'led' by the powers that be.

Marco.

[struth]

Not correct. Toyota have only recently shown a new concept version of their Mirai hydrogen fuel cell powered car, (https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/articles-news-events/2019/new-mirai-concept) which is less scary looking than the old one, and shows that Toyota have not given up on hydrogen. Good for them, I say! Incidentally James May is running an older Mirai alongside a Tesla Model S to find out which technology will ultimately be best, at least for him. Take a look at the DriveTribe video below:

https://youtu.be/GaIW5CQQ3ZoSorry I meant volkswagon

[NickB]

Well this bloke seems to think it’s possible.


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/can-electric-vehicles-evs-put-britain-fast-track-cut-carbon-graeme?articleId=6605474885928128512#comments-6605474885928128512&trk=public_profile_article_view


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[Stryder5]

Well this bloke seems to think it’s possible.


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/can-electric-vehicles-evs-put-britain-fast-track-cut-carbon-graeme?articleId=6605474885928128512#comments-6605474885928128512&trk=public_profile_article_view


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It’s always a play on statistics using percentages, a quick scan shows that only 1.6% of lease cars are EV. It is expected to rise significantly, but there are a few provisos on this, not least Government subsidies to Manufacturers and buyers.

The Lex information quote of 123% increase is meaningless without a base figure.

Government earning from duty and VAT on petrol and diesel fuel is around £35 billion per year.

Road pricing could be used I guess, but difficult in rural areas, needing a significant spend on technology.

Look for increase in energy pricing then?

Gary

[AJSki2fly]

Time to erect a wind turbine to charge up my cars fuel cells, I’ll be ok as on a hill by the coast with prevail onshore winds[emoji3]I’ll fly a kite/ballon up high when away made of flexi solar panels, like NASA use and get home from a charge from that. [emoji2957]

[Pigmy Pony]

It'll be a sad day when I have to ditch the diesel car for an electric one, but I won't be worrying about peak demands for electricity curtailing my charging needs - I'll have a diesel generator running to generate my own leccy :) Problem solved

[anthonyTD]

Some of the latest thinking, and inovation on Battery technology!

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

[dave2010]

battery tech is improving all time and a new lithium/oxygen version has been made to work, so that tech will no doubt get followed up now more vigorously.
10 years from now we might not recognise the tech; or of course it might just be all smoke and mirrors from the politicians, which is actually quite likely
I fear that for once the politicians aren't actually trying to cheat. They are just completely ignorant, which perhaps doesn't excuse them.

There are actually two (at least two) things to consider in the argument re electric cars: clean technology and CO2 emissions. I think there is little doubt that at the point of use, electric vehicles are and will be, cleaner than petrol or diesel cars, so they are to be welcomed in that regard, particularly in cities. However, if the intention is to "save the planet" and reduce CO2 emissions, then in the short to medium term at least, that is questionable.

Electric cars seem like a good idea, and indeed we have ordered one. However, the energy demand for in the UK is based on several components. Domestic heating in the winter is a major issue, though domestic use can be met by burning fuels directly in homes, or by electricity - with fuel burnt elsewhere. Unless so-called renewable sources of energy are used to generate electricity, using electricity for heating simply moves the location at which carbon based fuels are burnt away from sight.

Another factor in the battle to reduce fossil fuel usage is whether sustainability is absolute, or seasonal. Burning wood, for example, might be seasonably sustainable, as trees could be planted to replace those burnt. This only makes sense in less densely populated rural areas, for several reasons:
burning wood is polluting, and there would not be enough trees or wood to supply the demand in the UK.

What would make a difference re cars and overall CO2 reduction would be if more people bought and used cars with good mpg figures. These would still pollute and release CO2, but to a lesser extent. However, who is going to deliberately not buy a SUV, or a high powered sports car with consumption figures perhaps around 30 mpg, in comparison with a vehicle which might average 60+ mpg, but is considered boring by the motoring press, or otherwise unfashionable by others?

[dave2010]

This 'need' for electric cars is about control, they will be able to switch off any or all electric vehicles on a whim. I gather that's possible now. Any unrest and they just turn your area off.I don't think that's going to be a good idea. "They" can stop fuel deliveries now, but I remember a time about two decades back when fuel supplies were low across the UK. That was considered a major threat at the time - you know, possible civil unrest, army called out etc. So it doesn't really make that much difference whether the energy comes from fuel or electricity, supplies can still be manipulated, but governments don't really want to do that - at least in this country. There are some really bad governments in the world which might.

[AJSki2fly]

I think one point that has not been addressed is the fact that the percentage of co2 from petrol and diesel vehicles in relation to all the other co2 polluters is around 25% of total output. Not that this is not a significant amount but the other polluters need to be dealt with in tandem, ships, planes, incinerators, manufacturing industry, and industrial process that emits greenhouse gasses, and of course fossil fuel based power stations.

The problem is our society is built on the high use and reliance of quickly useable energy either in the form of electricity or fossil fuel to power engines. On top of that the worlds population has doubled to 7+billion in 60 years, and with globalisation and everyone wanting a better standard of life the power requirements have increased many times more as a result. Politically telling people you cannot have what people expect from and have grown up with in a modern society is not going to happen, so politicians do what they need to to placate the green movement, in the knowledge that it probably is not reversible, and even if it was it by the time people wake up to it then it will probably be too late. Sorry but this is the likely reality of the stupidity and greed of the human race. Just to remind you there were people shouting about the planet being poisoned back in the late 70’s and early 80’s and they were generally rubbished back then. I notice no one talks about the loss of the ozone layer anymore, is that because it’s gone too far or it’s political dynamite, we were all told it was disappearing due to green house gases, and that once gone far enough then our blue planet would be cooked with radiation, strange we do not hear about that anymore, just increased temperatures.

Ok that’s enough from me.

[Clive]

EVs shift pollution from cities...sounds great. But it’s not really the case. Yes they don’t produce NOx but until batteries become much lighter EVs pollute more nasty carcinogenic particulates from brake pads and tyres. This is due to significantly greater weight of EVs.

As for all the lithium we’ll need, there’s talk of mining (dredging) the sea bed. We’ll kill the oceans. Baby and bath water come to mind...

[NickB]

While very clever your idea for brake wear and weight of vehicle is completely wrong, I never use the brakes on normal drives as regen braking works for 99% of slowing down, also tyre wear is significantly less than my Mercedes C220


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[Clive]

While very clever your idea for brake wear and weight of vehicle is completely wrong, I never use the brakes on normal drives as regen braking works for 99% of slowing down, also tyre wear is significantly less than my Mercedes C220


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It's not my idea, there's been quite a lot of discussion about this topic. Whatever the full facts turn out to be it's clear EVs aren't pollution-free. Yes regen braking helps but check the rebuttal at the end of the doc linked below. If 99% of your braking is regen you'll never need new pads or discs. That's a useful saving.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2017/03/particle-pollution-from-electric-cars-could-be-worse-than-from-diesel-ones/

[Audio Al]

Lets just abandon all vehicles and walk , Oh hold on ,

Do we not breath out used oxygen (carbon dioxide) :eek:

And what would we do with all the rubber from our used shoes :eek:

[Clive]

On serious note....

Particulates are a big health issue, both for ICE and EVs. Just look at what happened when the Euro 4 and other regs came in. I worked with several car makers at the time. They all said the same. The regs forced them to break up large lumps of soot into a fine mist. Less visible but medically a much greater threat. Once exhaust fumes are banished we’ll still have other particulates to worry about. All I’m saying is that these issues aren’t as simple as you might hope.

[Marco]

To save me from Googling, could someone tell me what "regen" braking is?

Is this something else that allows a car to control *you*, rather than you controlling it? If so, I'm totally against all these bollox 'driver aids' unless you're infirm and/or disabled, as all it does is encourages LAZINESS, erodes actual real-world driving skills and judgement, and creates incompetence!

I drive cars because I *love driving*, and testing my driving skills in different roads and conditions, and using my own judgement in the process, when braking, parking, reversing or whatever. I don't want a bloody computer doing it all for me!:doh:

And when I accelerate, I WANT to hear the noise/roar of a combustion engine, preferably a powerful one, and have FUN [remember that?] behind the wheel of a car that *I* am controlling. Not sat inside the silent, soulless cabin of an electric car, doing next to nothing (as, make no mistake, that's how things will become), like a brainwashed robot. Perish the thought!!

Getting behind the wheel of a good well-designed and well-engineered classic car, where there are hee-haw 'driver aids', and it's essentially you and the car versus the road, puts all this computer shite into perspective, and sorts the men out from the boys - and most importantly reminds you of what driving *should* be/used to be about! I want to feel connected with the experience, not the opposite!

Some of you who haven't been in such a car for years should try it. It's a real eye-opener, trust me, in terms of how far we've gone now to 'desensitise' and homogenise the whole driving experience, and taking all the FUN out of it. Somewhat like listening to a really good vinyl-based vintage hi-fi system, compared with a modern digital set up: both play music, but only one stirs the soul!

<Rant over>

Marco [will never, EVER own an electric car].

[Audio Al]

Regen braking is
When the drive moter is used for drive and when you take your foot off the throttle the drive moter turns into a alternator / generator putting power back in the battery pack

[Marco]

Ah I see, ta. The points I made, however, about 'driver aids' and electric cars still stand!

Marco.

[dave2010]

Regen braking is
When the drive moter is used for drive and when you take your foot off the throttle the drive moter turns into a alternator / generator putting power back in the battery packDepends on the car. Some do it when you take your foot off the accelerator pedal, some when you put your foot on the brake. It's still regenerative in either case, but the controls are slightly different. Some cars can now operate in both ways depending on settings.

[struth]

yup mine regens in coast mode and even harder when brakes applied. also you get more in eco mode than sport mode etc. Its not a cure all but every little helps, as the battery in mine is small, being a hybrid. Its just an aid to extended mileage as much as anything, but it is used a lot in town especially in eco, so its quiet and clean at point of use. the smell off a diesel is surprising when your not used to it

[anthonyTD]

I remember when i was a kid [yes all those years ago] Diesel trucks busses, and trains when pulling off' used to emit clouds of blue/black smoke, these days modern diesel's hardly smoke at all, good you say' that's because the engines are more efficient, therefore; exhausts are much cleaner, yes, to a point, but the real problem still exists ie; the particles they produce, these are the most damaging as far as health issues, and where as when i was a kid those particles were obvious, they used to fall to the ground quite quickly because of their size/weight, these days by making Diesel engines more efficient those problematic particles are still there, but are much, much smaller, hence they stay air borne for much longer and therefore; the reason we are seeing chronic lung/chest problems in major cities and towns, or anywhere people live near busy roads etc.
I drive a diesel, so i am very aware of this issue, however my small saving grace is; these days i only drive a few thousand miles a year, hence i am limiting my carbon footprint that way, still no excuse i know, and i am very aware of my failings!
All we seem to do is change/alter the problem, we never solve it!
A...

[Marco]

I drive a diesel, so i am very aware of this issue, however my small saving grace is; these days i only drive a few thousand miles a year, hence i am limiting my carbon footprint that way, still no excuse i know, and i am very aware of my failings!
All we seem to do is change/alter the problem, we never solve it!


+1 (on all counts). These days, I drive on average 30 miles per week, to a maximum of 60. In any case, in terms of your carbon footprint, you have to take into consideration the WHOLE of your lifestyle/habits and analyse things cumulatively, not simply in terms of what kind of a car you drive.

In that respect, you're not doing your carbon footprint, or the planet, any favours by driving an electric car, and at the same time putting lots of plastic and other waste into landfill, not being energy-conscious at home, or flying off on holiday two or three times a year!

You have to look at the *whole picture*, and aside from driving a performance diesel car, both Del and I are very focussed on an environmentally-friendly lifestyle, especially Del, as in Germany (where many of her family originate), the whole green/recycling scene had existed for DECADES before we considered the notion and adopted it seriously here in the UK, so she's a massive 'greeny'.

Therefore, I've got nothing against the potentially improved environmental aspect of electric cars - far from it - but simply detest and refuse to be 'led' by the system, or take part in, what is *really* the driving force, no pun intended, behind them (as already outlined), and which so many appear to be blind to. Quite simply, 'saving the planet' is an easy sell, to cover up the real truth!

Marco.

[dave2010]

Therefore, I've got nothing against the potentially improved environmental aspect of electric cars - far from it - but simply detest and refuse to be 'led' by the system, or take part in, what is *really* the driving force behind them (as already outlined), and which so many appear to be blind to. Quite simply, 'saving the planet' is an easy sell to cover up the real truth!
I can't agree with everything in your post here, but I do agree that using petrol or diesel cars for a relatively few miles each week is not going to do a disproportionate amount of damage compared with other activities, such as having the central heating on, or using desktop computers instead of laptops, or flying long distances, or using tumble dryers instead of hanging washing out on a line.

As with many things, there are merits in some systems/devices/techniques, but these have to be weighed up in terms of an overall picture. We are going to have an electric car, and we do have a hybrid, but our pattern of usage is probably different from some people's.

I have been rethinkng my approach to this, as the issues of pollution in cities (electric cars = good, possibly also plug-in hybrids = good, regular hybrids - probably not so good, diesels, petrol = not good at all) are different from the issues re CO2, where at the present time overall efficiency is possibly the most important factor, given that electric cars may "simply" move the location at which CO2 is released to the atmostphere - until such time as the overall generation capacity is sufficient to power all the electric cars on the planet.

I am not at all sure that you can make statements about 'what is *really* the driving force behind them" - chances are we haven't any idea. I'd be interested to know more about what you think, nevertheless.

[Beobloke]

or using tumble dryers instead of hanging washing out on a line.


Much as I will always strongly resist moving to an electric car, I absolutely REFUSE to stop tumble drying my towels - it makes them, soft and fluffy!!

[dave2010]

Much as I will always strongly resist moving to an electric car, I absolutely REFUSE to stop tumble drying my towels - it makes them, soft and fluffy!!Ah but do you use one of the new fangled ones with the inbuilt dehumidifiers, and do you use those ball things to keep the towels even softer?

Also, you can get the benefit of the fluffing up with a short period of drying - not running the dryer for hours on end.

People who live in cities don't really have many options, other than using tumble dryers, or possibly drying cabinets - which aren't so popular in the UK.

[Beobloke]

Ah but do you use one of the new fangled ones with the inbuilt dehumidifiers, and do you use those ball things to keep the towels even softer?


It’s a modern condensing dryer and we use Asda’s Moonflower and Lavender tumble dryer sheets for maximum softness and a lovely smell!

:)

[struth]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7970367/The-electric-car-salary-sacrifice-tax-break-save-40.html

Good article on money you can save getting an electric car through tax break

[dave2010]

It’s a modern condensing dryer and we use Asda’s Moonflower and Lavender tumble dryer sheets for maximum softness and a lovely smell!

:)You should get some of those miracle balls too!

PS: Condensing = OK. The latest ones use heat pumps and don't use much energy.

[dave2010]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7970367/The-electric-car-salary-sacrifice-tax-break-save-40.html

Good article on money you can save getting an electric car through tax breakMaybe, though it depends on one's circumstances.

Just heard (though not had it confirmed it yet) that the £3500 dosh from HMG for buying an electric car is not going to be available after March. If true, they kept that very quiet. Dealers may, or may not, pass the effective increase on.

So much for offering incentives for people to take up new ideas!

[NickB]

+1 (on all counts). These days, I drive on average 30 miles per week, to a maximum of 60. In any case, in terms of your carbon footprint, you have to take into consideration the WHOLE of your lifestyle/habits and analyse things cumulatively, not simply in terms of what kind of a car you drive.

In that respect, you're not doing your carbon footprint, or the planet, any favours by driving an electric car, and at the same time putting lots of plastic and other waste into landfill, not being energy-conscious at home, or flying off on holiday two or three times a year!

You have to look at the *whole picture*, and aside from driving a performance diesel car, both Del and I are very focussed on an environmentally-friendly lifestyle, especially Del, as in Germany (where many of her family originate), the whole green/recycling scene had existed for DECADES before we considered the notion and adopted it seriously here in the UK, so she's a massive 'greeny'.

Therefore, I've got nothing against the potentially improved environmental aspect of electric cars - far from it - but simply detest and refuse to be 'led' by the system, or take part in, what is *really* the driving force, no pun intended, behind them (as already outlined), and which so many appear to be blind to. Quite simply, 'saving the planet' is an easy sell, to cover up the real truth!

Marco.

You should try a Tesla Model 3 performance, it’s just a car that goes like F***, the handling is great and it has the most awesome sound system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[NickB]

For the “Grid can’t take it guys, look at this.


https://twitter.com/elecclassiccars/status/1225059973165735937?s=21


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[anthonyTD]

Maybe we should all be taxed on our carbon footprint then, those who jump on and off planes, and cruse ships willy nilly, should have that taken into account, those of us who spend stupid amounts on changing kitchens, bathrooms, furniture, again just because their a couple of years old, and therefore; not what Chelsea, or margret has, and on and...
I don't know what the answer is, i seriously don't, but i hope this thread has given all of us who's read it something to think about!
+1 (on all counts). These days, I drive on average 30 miles per week, to a maximum of 60. In any case, in terms of your carbon footprint, you have to take into consideration the WHOLE of your lifestyle/habits and analyse things cumulatively, not simply in terms of what kind of a car you drive.

In that respect, you're not doing your carbon footprint, or the planet, any favours by driving an electric car, and at the same time putting lots of plastic and other waste into landfill, not being energy-conscious at home, or flying off on holiday two or three times a year!

You have to look at the *whole picture*, and aside from driving a performance diesel car, both Del and I are very focussed on an environmentally-friendly lifestyle, especially Del, as in Germany (where many of her family originate), the whole green/recycling scene had existed for DECADES before we considered the notion and adopted it seriously here in the UK, so she's a massive 'greeny'.

Therefore, I've got nothing against the potentially improved environmental aspect of electric cars - far from it - but simply detest and refuse to be 'led' by the system, or take part in, what is *really* the driving force, no pun intended, behind them (as already outlined), and which so many appear to be blind to. Quite simply, 'saving the planet' is an easy sell, to cover up the real truth!

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

For the “Grid can’t take it guys, look at this.


https://twitter.com/elecclassiccars/status/1225059973165735937?s=21


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah but there's around 32 million cars in the UK. So just a small matter of finding power for 30 million then..

[Ali Tait]

https://i.imgur.com/mQh2mlN.jpg

[anthonyTD]

Aye,:eek: and what energy source are they using to dig that lot out, i bet its not Electricity!!!
https://i.imgur.com/mQh2mlN.jpg

[NickB]

Yeah but there's around 32 million cars in the UK. So just a small matter of finding power for 30 million then..

And of course they are all going to change tonight aren't they, do you not think that the grid might just get itself sorted in the next 5 to 10 years?

[Audio Al]

Anyone know of a cave for sale ?

[Ali Tait]

And of course they are all going to change tonight aren't they, do you not think that the grid might just get itself sorted in the next 5 to 10 years?

Well no frankly. Given that I've spent the last 33 years working on it, I do know a little about the subject.

And yes, given most folk use their cars daily, it will obviously follow that a large percentage will be charged daily.

[struth]

current thinking(hoping) is that folk will recharge 2 times a week an average. so in stead of 210 mil cars charging a week, there will be nearer 75 mil....
Of course batteries may improve etc but power is pretty much still power so they will need to find extra capability, especially now we are out of Europe and hence more likely to be starved at will... Still at least we will have plenty fish:eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

Well it'll keep me employed building substations for wind farms for the foreseeable.

You do have to wonder at humans. I recently read an article in one of the journals about renewables, an estimate of approx 105 trillion would be the cost to provide the planet's energy needs all from renewables, but that a tenth of that put into fusion research would yield benefits within a few years - it's an area that's been chronically underfunded for years. But humans would rather 10 times that on wind farms. Go figure as the Yanks say.

[anthonyTD]

The crutch of the matter, from where i see it is this;
We will not get an energy source that has the potential to be used in anger, eg, fusion, or any kind of energy source that cannot be managed/controled, especialy its energy output, and when you think of what some of the nutters in society would do with such a technology, then you have to be thankful in a way' that we are still using all this old crap technology,:eek: seriously though, untill human's disgraceful and often barbaric behaviour towards each other improves significantly, and we start treating all humans with the same importance, then we as a society will continue to have to put up with what we are given.

[struth]

Maybe one of the world problems.. No decent sized wars for so long we have too big populations [emoji41]
Too good health services too[emoji44]
And not enough prisons and workhouses.. Bah Humbug [emoji3526]

[Marco]

You should try a Tesla Model 3 performance, it’s just a car that goes like F***, the handling is great and it has the most awesome sound system.


I get you, Nick, but I still like to HEAR an engine!;)

Marco.

[Firebottle]

Plus how about all children that live within a mile of school walk to school, instead of getting a lift in polluting chelsea tractors et al.

[Marco]

Maybe we should all be taxed on our carbon footprint then, those who jump on and off planes, and cruse ships willy nilly, should have that taken into account, those of us who spend stupid amounts on changing kitchens, bathrooms, furniture, again just because their a couple of years old, and therefore; not what Chelsea, or margret has, and on and...


Yup, I'd be all for that!:thumbsup:

I utterly *detest* the type of folk you mention [wasteful, and superficial 'keeping up with the Joneses' types], and simply can't relate to the mentality. I also hate how when stuff breaks now, it just gets chucked, rather than fixed.

We prefer buying once, but buying WELL, and keeping our stuff (particularly hard-furniture items) for years and getting proper use out of it, rather than being hapless victims of fashion, or show-offs who believe that most expensive, or stuff with a 'fancy badge' is always best!:doh:

Marco.

[struth]

Current demand at moment is close to max.
Not a lot of room for 30mil carshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200206/157232c3bb1efcaaf0bf7c866093eb37.jpg

[NickB]

Sorry but this is another person who actually runs the grid and knows it capabilities unlike certain (news) papers who run adverts for ICE cars and fossil fuel companies.

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/17649/The_energy_network_can_cope_with_an_EV_future,_say s_National_Grid.html

[NickB]

Current demand at moment is close to max.
Not a lot of room for 30mil carshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200206/157232c3bb1efcaaf0bf7c866093eb37.jpg

But Grant, we charge our cars between 1 and 5 in the morning when we pay 5p per KW and there is no demand.

[Clive]

Sorry but this is another person who actually runs the grid and knows it capabilities unlike certain (news) papers who run adverts for ICE cars and fossil fuel companies.

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/17649/The_energy_network_can_cope_with_an_EV_future,_say s_National_Grid.html
I see that link talks about off-shore wind farms. Maybe it’s an improvement in terms of co2 overall but bear in mind manufacturing a windmill and installing it requires 10 years of electricity generation to nullify the co2 created within these processes. A lot of the modern co2 saving measures have a huge co2 footprint upfront...

Also, as we massively industrialise these technologies we need to be aware that we may change the way the climate and ocean currents work. Massive wind farms, solar farms, wave power, mining the ocean bed for things like neodymium (for magnets)...these things have to be fully assessed. Maybe they are better than tweaking our existing technology but there could equally be a huge learning phase where it goes wrong.

We must assess the whole lifecycle of whatever we do and not blindly believe the hype that everything electric is better.

[AJSki2fly]

Well if the coronavirus pandemic really gets going and it mutates a few times the global power requirement might drop if we loose 2-3 billion on the way through it. Then if it left most that got it and survived infertile then we might very quickly loose in a couple of generations 60% of the world population. Most would be so focused on growing food, they wouldn’t be travelling much and trips abroad would be out of the question. Problem solved.

[Clive]

Well if the coronavirus pandemic really gets going and it mutates a few times the global power requirement might drop if we loose 2-3 billion on the way through it. Then if it left most that got it and survived infertile then we might very quickly loose in a couple of generations 60% of the world population. Most would be so focused on growing food, they wouldn’t be travelling much and trips abroad would be out of the question. Problem solved.

This is one of the solutions...except it needs bigger numbers. There are simply too many people on this planet. I don't seriously advocate people dying but population growth is killing us.

BTW car pollution is nothing compared to shipping goods from China for Amazon to sell to us. https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution-515489

Forget long distance trade deals, we need to buy U.K. or relatively locally in Europe.

[NickB]

I see that link talks about off-shore wind farms. Maybe it’s an improvement in terms of co2 overall but bear in mind manufacturing a windmill and installing it requires 10 years of electricity generation to nullify the co2 created within these processes. A lot of the modern co2 saving measures have a huge co2 footprint upfront...

Also, as we massively industrialise these technologies we need to be aware that we may change the way the climate and ocean currents work. Massive wind farms, solar farms, wave power, mining the ocean bed for things like neodymium (for magnets)...these things have to be fully assessed. Maybe they are better than tweaking our existing technology but there could equally be a huge learning phase where it goes wrong.

We must assess the whole lifecycle of whatever we do and not blindly believe the hype that everything electric is better.

No, I am sure that sticking with Diesel,Petrol, Coal and Gas is a much better idea.

[Clive]

No, I am sure that sticking with Diesel,Petrol, Coal and Gas is a much better idea.
I’m saying fossil vs green power is not as simple as we’d like to believe. Green power is not as green as you’d hope. Look at the bigger things that need fixing. Shipping is a mega one that’s far more important than EVs. Take carbon capture technology into account. My son is doing a masters in this currently, it has to be part of the equation. My son’s partner is an environmentalist, she doesn’t fixate on cars, they are not the top priority. Even Jonathan Bartley, co-leader of the Green Party doesn’t have an EV, he has an ICE car!

For the sake of the planet don’t fall for the sound bites. Think it through. We need a mix of measures, EVs have their place. Oh yes...drive far less in the first place....we must have better, much better public transport.

[Ali Tait]

Well said Clive, you are correct, we need to focus on what’s really important.

[dave2010]

I get you, Nick, but I still like to HEAR an engine!;)

Marco.You'll go deaf, you know!

Go stand behind a Tornado or similar taking off - without wearing ear defenders. Maybe that'll "do" it for you!

[anthonyTD]

:)
I see that link talks about off-shore wind farms. Maybe it’s an improvement in terms of co2 overall but bear in mind manufacturing a windmill and installing it requires 10 years of electricity generation to nullify the co2 created within these processes. A lot of the modern co2 saving measures have a huge co2 footprint upfront...

Also, as we massively industrialise these technologies we need to be aware that we may change the way the climate and ocean currents work. Massive wind farms, solar farms, wave power, mining the ocean bed for things like neodymium (for magnets)...these things have to be fully assessed. Maybe they are better than tweaking our existing technology but there could equally be a huge learning phase where it goes wrong.

We must assess the whole lifecycle of whatever we do and not blindly believe the hype that everything electric is better.

[Pigmy Pony]

I get you, Nick, but I still like to HEAR an engine!;)

Marco.

You can always make 'brum brum' noises yourself as you go along the road :)

Anyway, I'm not sure how much engine noise you could hear, above your 3 grand car stereo. I suppose the rap music you favour does sound a bit like a loud car - one that's broken down, with all the associated swearing :D

[NickB]

I’m saying fossil vs green power is not as simple as we’d like to believe. Green power is not as green as you’d hope. Look at the bigger things that need fixing. Shipping is a mega one that’s far more important than EVs. Take carbon capture technology into account. My son is doing a masters in this currently, it has to be part of the equation. My son’s partner is an environmentalist, she doesn’t fixate on cars, they are not the top priority. Even Jonathan Bartley, co-leader of the Green Party doesn’t have an EV, he has an ICE car!

For the sake of the planet don’t fall for the sound bites. Think it through. We need a mix of measures, EVs have their place. Oh yes...drive far less in the first place....we must have better, much better public transport.

Yes, but I don’t understand why every answer needs to be the perfect answer, doing nothing is worse and using other sectors problems to justify lack of action is a very Trump way of behaving.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marco]

You can always make 'brum brum' noises yourself as you go along the road :)

Anyway, I'm not sure how much engine noise you could hear, above your 3 grand car stereo. I suppose the rap music you favour does sound a bit like a loud car - one that's broken down, with all the associated swearing :D

Heh-heh... I love how you remember the details, such as the cost of my car stereo - shows you're paying attention!:D;)

If that's playing, I'll hear feck all apart from the music (and when the car's stationary, that also applies to anyone within a 250-yard radius:eyebrows:), but quite often I'll drive with no music on and just listen to the purr/roar (when I accelerate) of the engine, and the 'sweet music played' by the fat-assed quad exhaust system... Oh yeah, baby!:hairmetal:

Marco.

P.S In the car I don't just listen to rap, but heavy rock/thrash metal/indie/dance or R&B - anything that creates a cool vibe, preferably with a wicked bass-line, and makes driving fun:)

[Marco]

You'll go deaf, you know!

Go stand behind a Tornado or similar taking off - without wearing ear defenders. Maybe that'll "do" it for you!

Lol - I take it you're not much of a 'petrol head' then, Dave?:)

I'm not saying that this applies to you, but I've never seen the point in owning a car if you don't actually LIKE driving. There are plenty of other forms of transport available.

For me, cars aren't t simply metal boxes to get you from A to B, but owning them is one of life's pleasures, as indeed is driving in a nice car, in scenic areas largely free from traffic, and yes, as you know from living where you do now, such things still exist!;)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, but I don’t understand why every answer needs to be the perfect answer, doing nothing is worse and using other sectors problems to justify lack of action is a very Trump way of behaving.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't disagree but we need to look at practicalities and the actual facts. The fact is, the UK only produces around 1% of global greenhouse gases emissions. Contrast that with China at around 30%, or the US at around 16%.

The fact is, anything the UK does will make no practical difference!

Yes yes people can say "Well we need to lead the way" but it still will make no practical difference unless the likes of China and the US take drastic action also. I really can't see that, can you?

[Marco]

I totally agree, Ali. Those are the indisputable facts. However, as a responsible person, even if it's just to feel good that you're doing the right thing, it's still good not to be wasteful and think about how your lifestyle impacts on the environment, even in the tiniest way.

For me, that's just natural, as it's how I'm wired:)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, I totally agree, I try to do the same, valve amps and Class A amps aside lol.

[Clive]

I don't disagree but we need to look at practicalities and the actual facts. The fact is, the UK only produces around 1% of global greenhouse gases emissions. Contrast that with China at around 30%, or the US at around 16%.

The fact is, anything the UK does will make no practical difference!

Yes yes people can say "Well we need to lead the way" but it still will make no practical difference unless the likes of China and the US take drastic action also. I really can't see that, can you?

I'd add that EVs can help but the danger here is that people seem to be thinking that's most of what we need to do when it's frankly a small issue vs the much bigger ones of shipping flying, even meat production. We're focused too much on a smallish issue.

[Ali Tait]

Yes agree Clive.

Take a look at this graph of CO2 emissions 1970-2018, we are not even in the running and emissions have dropped in the EU overall-

https://i.imgur.com/rcXhcwv.png

[dave2010]

Yes agree Clive.

Take a look at this graph of CO2 emissions 1970-2018, we are not even in the running and emissions have dropped in the EU overall-

https://i.imgur.com/rcXhcwv.pngA very interesting graph. What is the source?

Note however, that from the graph the CO2 emission due to China is matched approximately by "Other countries". It is interesting that India, which has a population not too much smaller than China, has relatively low CO2 emissions. Of course this could be that many Indians are relatively poorer than many Chinese, and the rise of the Chinese middle classes who are undoubtedly becoming significant consumers, does not help - even though a very significant proportion of Chinese people still live in very substandard conditions at the bottom end of their society.

I have suggested before that the UK could do more good in respect of global emissions by exerting influence on the big CO2 emitters, to help them to become more efficient - without worsening their lives overall, rather than trying to substitute EVs etc. for petrol cars in the UK, which will have relatively little effect.

However, it may still be desirable to move towards EVs in the UK, as they will improve the environment generally, particularly in cities.

[Clive]

Another interesting one - per head of population

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPkVEx2X0AESGch?format=jpg&name=small

[Macca]

I've never seen the point in owning a car if you don't actually LIKE driving. There are plenty of other forms of transport available.

.

Only someone who never uses any other form of transport would say something like that.

Let's look at the alternatives;

Bus - expensive, slow, unreliable, often doesn't go exactly where you want to go. Only runs between set times.

Train - expensive, not as unreliable as a bus but still not great, almost certainly doesn't go exactly where you want to go, only runs between set times.

Motorbike - dangerous, unpleasant in bad weather.

Bicycle - dangerous, slow, unpleasant in bad weather, you'll need to shower after arriving at your destination.

Walking - Cheap and safe, but very, very slow, unpleasant in bad weather and again you'll need that shower especially if it's a warm day.

Added to which the train and bus will usually contain 'anti-social' types talking continual shite into their mobile phones, eating like pigs, scattering rubbish and unconsumed food around, allowing their awful children to shout, scream, and run around like lunatics, fat people with 'fat people smell', nutters, people who don't seem to realise that you need to wash at least occasionally, and people who find it impossible to sit still for more than 30 seconds.

Hence why almost everyone prefers to travel by car even if they don't enjoy driving.

[Stryder5]

+1 ^^^^^^

Gary

[Clive]

Another interesting one - per head of population

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPkVEx2X0AESGch?format=jpg&name=small

It's interesting to see hot countries (and some cold) at the top of the CO2 chart....all that aircon outweighs our heating. However the UK position is lower than it ought to be because we consume so much from other countries, eg China. We can't beat up China too much for this when we that buy the products they make. I can see CO2 taxation coming.

[Macca]

last time I got the bus:

Arrived at stop with almost ten minutes to spare. No problem, rolled a ciggy, had a smoke. A few other punters heeled up. Twenty minutes later - still no bus. Check timetable, according to that there are 6 an hour - so one should roll up roughly every 10 minutes.

Another twenty minutes passes, still no bus, now about ten punters waiting, most, like me, clearly on their way home from work. Another ten minutes passes, finally a bus rolls up. Get on board, obviously it is packed as the supposed 6 buses an hour is actually one an hour. Find a vacant seat but have to remove half-eaten chicken sandwich from it before I can sit down. Get underway.

Of course every subsequent stop there are a dozen or more people waiting so each halt takes ages. Finally arrive at bus station where we have to change. Wait another twenty minutes for the next bus (according to the timetable there should have been one already waiting). That goes through the hospital complex then doubles back on itself, turning a 10 minute journey into half an hour. There is no option to take a bus with a more direct route.

This second bus has seen better days and is putting out enough smoke behind it to screen a battleship and its escorts.

Total journey time from leaving work to entering house - 1 hour 55 minutes. Cost: £5.40. Distance from work to home - just over 6 miles. I can walk it in an hour and fifteen.

And this is the mode of transport that is going to save the planet? Oh my aching sides.

[Clive]

last time I got the bus:

Arrived at stop with almost ten minutes to spare. No problem, rolled a ciggy, had a smoke. A few other punters heeled up. Twenty minutes later - still no bus. Check timetable, according to that there are 6 an hour - so one should roll up roughly every 10 minutes.

Another twenty minutes passes, still no bus, now about ten punters waiting, most, like me, clearly on their way home from work. Another ten minutes passes, finally a bus rolls up. Get on board, obviously it is packed as the supposed 6 buses an hour is actually one an hour. Find a vacant seat but have to remove half-eaten chicken sandwich from it before I can sit down. Get underway.

Of course every subsequent stop there are a dozen or more people waiting so each halt takes ages. Finally arrive at bus station where we have to change. wait another twenty minutes for the next bus (according to the timetable there should be one waiting). That goes through the hospital complex then doubles back on itself, turning a 10 minute journey into half an hour. There is no option to take a bus with a more direct route.

This second bus has seen better days and is putting out enough smoke behind it to screen a battleship and its escorts.

Total journey time from leaving work to entering house - 1 hour 55 minutes. Cost: £5.40. Distance from work to home - just over 6 miles. I can walk it in an hour and fifteen.

And this is the mode of transport that is going to save the planet? Oh my aching sides.
This why we need much, very much better public transport. We could also do with well behaved people. I use public transport in other countries, people seem more considerate and on't trash buses and trains in quite the way can happen here. When I travel in the South East England on trains it's a better experience...the massively better trains help, maybe the northern rail grot encourages people to act badly.

[Marco]

last time I got the bus:

Arrived at stop with almost ten minutes to spare. No problem, rolled a ciggy, had a smoke. A few other punters heeled up. Twenty minutes later - still no bus. Check timetable, according to that there are 6 an hour - so one should roll up roughly every 10 minutes.

Another twenty minutes passes, still no bus, now about ten punters waiting, most, like me, clearly on their way home from work. Another ten minutes passes, finally a bus rolls up. Get on board, obviously it is packed as the supposed 6 buses an hour is actually one an hour. Find a vacant seat but have to remove half-eaten chicken sandwich from it before I can sit down. Get underway.

Of course every subsequent stop there are a dozen or more people waiting so each halt takes ages. Finally arrive at bus station where we have to change. Wait another twenty minutes for the next bus (according to the timetable there should have been one already waiting). That goes through the hospital complex then doubles back on itself, turning a 10 minute journey into half an hour. There is no option to take a bus with a more direct route.

This second bus has seen better days and is putting out enough smoke behind it to screen a battleship and its escorts.

Total journey time from leaving work to entering house - 1 hour 55 minutes. Cost: £5.40. Distance from work to home - just over 6 miles. I can walk it in an hour and fifteen.

And this is the mode of transport that is going to save the planet? Oh my aching sides.

Lol - it's like that in many areas of the country, but I have to say that, in an around Wrexham and Chester, the bus service is excellent, whenever I've used it, which admittedly is rarely, as I prefer the car (no parking issues in Wrexham, however Chester is a different story).

Anyway, there are buses every 10 mins from Wrexham to Chester and back, and they are punctual and also spotless, again at least whenever I've used them. Arriva is the company who run the buses here - who runs them in Stoke?:)

Marco.

[dave2010]

Lol - it's like that in many areas of the country, but I have to say that, in an around Wrexham and Chester, the bus service is excellent, whenever I've used it, which admittedly is rarely, as I prefer the car (no parking issues in Wrexham, however Chester is a different story).

Anyway, there are buses every 10 mins from Wrexham to Chester and back, and they are punctual and also spotless, again at least whenever I've used them. Arriva is the company who run the buses here - who runs them in Stoke?:)

Some friends went on holiday somewhere in the north east a few years ago - perhaps somewhere round Berwick. After visiting the gardens they had gone to see, they walked out and saw a bus stop. There was a timetable on it, and they could see that a bus was due in around 15 minutes, so they waited. After getting on for half an hour, a local said - "Ah - you're waiting for the bus. The last bus that went past here was two years ago!".

Seems to be about par for the course. In some areas buses are really rather good, though there isn't a sensible integrated transport system which links with train and other services, but in some other areas buses are a complete joke.

[Macca]

Lol - it's like that in many areas of the country, but I have to say that, in an around Wrexham and Chester, the bus service is excellent, whenever I've used it, which admittedly is rarely, as I prefer the car (no parking issues in Wrexham, however Chester is a different story).

Anyway, there are buses every 10 mins from Wrexham to Chester and back, and they are punctual and also spotless, again at least whenever I've used them. Arriva is the company who run the buses here - who runs them in Stoke?:)

Marco.

The main company is Firstbus, there's a couple of smaller ones who are better, but they don't cover the routes I might want to use.

When I lived outside Nottingham many years ago I used to get the bus in and back every day and it was an excellent service, although very crowded (probably because it was reliable so people actually used it). In Liverpool the service is pretty good too.

But here it is run by incompetent idiots. if I relied on it to get to work I would be late 2-3 times a week at least. Bus journeys here have dropped by a quarter over the last few years as people increasingly choose other methods of travel. I can get a taxi door to door for 2 quid more, why would I ever bother with the bus?

[dave2010]

Lol - I take it you're not much of a 'petrol head' then, Dave?:)

I'm not saying that this applies to you, but I've never seen the point in owning a car if you don't actually LIKE driving. There are plenty of other forms of transport available.

For me, cars aren't t simply metal boxes to get you from A to B, but owning them is one of life's pleasures, as indeed is driving in a nice car, in scenic areas largely free from traffic, and yes, as you know from living where you do now, such things still exist!;)
I do enough driving - though it was never my job, and I have driven in other countries too. Mostly it's a means to an end. I used to like driving in some parts of California, but I found driving towards Rhode Island and over the Pell Bridge terrifying. There's nothing like that in the UK. At one point two very wide freeways (motorways) merge - it's madness on steroids.

I also got used to driving in Sweden, which was pretty in winter, and eventually I got into driving at 60mph on ice and snow. At first I drove slowly, but so many local drivers passed us and threw up lots of slush so that it was impossible to see that I gave up and floored it. It can be dangerous though, but few locals will try to pass a car going at 60 mph in those conditions.

I don't see any point in cars making more noise than strictly necessary, though I'm aware that some electric cars are so quiet that they may be a hazard for pedestrians who won't hear them coming. Also I try to drive more or less at the speed limits, which I'm aware that many don't. It is boring, but it avoids getting penalty points and fines.

Re the tornado comment previously - I inadvertently did that at Farnborough years ago. I was in the wrong location, and if I did have ear defenders with me - I'd left them at the other end of the field. The plane got ready to take off and presumably put on massive power before letting the brakes off. Even with fingers jammed tight into lug holes it was deafening! As I wrote earlier - if you want noise, that's the way to go.

[dave2010]

+1 ^^^^^^

Gary
+ another 1 ^^^^^^^

[Ali Tait]

A very interesting graph. What is the source?

Note however, that from the graph the CO2 emission due to China is matched approximately by "Other countries". It is interesting that India, which has a population not too much smaller than China, has relatively low CO2 emissions. Of course this could be that many Indians are relatively poorer than many Chinese, and the rise of the Chinese middle classes who are undoubtedly becoming significant consumers, does not help - even though a very significant proportion of Chinese people still live in very substandard conditions at the bottom end of their society.

I have suggested before that the UK could do more good in respect of global emissions by exerting influence on the big CO2 emitters, to help them to become more efficient - without worsening their lives overall, rather than trying to substitute EVs etc. for petrol cars in the UK, which will have relatively little effect.

However, it may still be desirable to move towards EVs in the UK, as they will improve the environment generally, particularly in cities.

Just a Wiki article. As Clive correctly points out, some of the drop in the EU and sharp rise in China is due to all the things we import from there, so not all down to growth in China I don’t think.

I agree EV’s would make a lot of sense in cities.

[Ali Tait]

It's interesting to see hot countries (and some cold) at the top of the CO2 chart....all that aircon outweighs our heating. However the UK position is lower than it ought to be because we consume so much from other countries, eg China. We can't beat up China too much for this when we that buy the products they make. I can see CO2 taxation coming.

Yes CO2 taxation will definitely come, if nothing else the govt will need an alternative source of revenue once they’ve forced us all into EV’s.

[dave2010]

It's important also not to downplay the UK's contribution to the CO2 problem too much. China and the USA are the worst offenders, at the national level. Re per capita measures, I don't know what a precise figure for CO2 releases is by the UK, but if it's 1% then it's above average. A quick calculation suggests that the UK has 0.88% of the world's population.

Additionally, as has been noted, the UK and presumably other "advanced" countries have a lot of manufacturing done in Asia, so that we can sit back smugly, yet let the Asian countries do the dirty work, and then we buy the stuff they make - which as has also been mentioned - is then put into huge ships and sent around the world.

I think the notion that one container ship emits as much CO2 as the whole of the UK is an over exaggeration, but shipping insn't good. Cruise liners aren't good either, but many people seem to enjoy them. I have been on a few, but I can't say I'm a great fan of them. I'd probably rather drive round Europe in a van, but haven't done that for years.

[Pigmy Pony]

Probably oversimplifying and a bit naïve, but what if UK government used the money they would be spending on making us 'greener' to subsidise British manufacturing, to make us more competitive? Not so many container ships coming from China if we are able to say, "No thanks, I've made me own" :)

[struth]

Probably oversimplifying and a bit naïve, but what if UK government used the money they would be spending on making us 'greener' to subsidise British manufacturing, to make us more competitive? Not so many container ships coming from China if we are able to say, "No thanks, I've made me own" :)

problem lies in capitalism there.. The biggest improvement we as a species could make is to buy something and then keep it for 40 years(if poss) instead of continually buying new stuff. Of course we would need manufacturers to make things properly to last and not fall apart in x amount of time.

[Pigmy Pony]

Manufacturers, consumers, advertisers/style gurus, whatever - not sure who is the dog and who is the tail, but we as consumers need to be convinced that going back to repairable toasters is practical and cool. I'm all for it, we've built stuff that way before and we can do it again :)

[anthonyTD]

:)
Manufacturers, consumers, advertisers/style gurus, whatever - not sure who is the dog and who is the tail, but we as consumers need to be convinced that going back to repairable toasters is practical and cool. I'm all for it, we've built stuff that way before and we can do it again :)

[Barry]

Manufacturers, consumers, advertisers/style gurus, whatever - not sure who is the dog and who is the tail, but we as consumers need to be convinced that going back to repairable toasters is practical and cool. I'm all for it, we've built stuff that way before and we can do it again :)

+1 :)

[Marco]

problem lies in capitalism there.. The biggest improvement we as a species could make is to buy something and then keep it for 40 years(if poss)..

Exactly! Rather than stupidly (and blindly) following fashion, like hapless and brainwashed sheep! Our policy has always been to use something until it breaks and/or is no longer fit for purpose. Then, if it can't be fixed, try and replace it with something of equal quality (based on our principles of 'buy ONCE, but buy WELL'), and then do the same with that [ad infinitum]...

That's why we spent £40k on our new kitchen, and before that, £20k on our bathroom, as short of being maintained and kept clean, both will outlive us! That might seem like a lot of dosh, but how many times would the average female fashion victim (it's usually a woman) change 'her' kitchen and/or bathroom, or move house, and then do it all over again, in a lifetime - and at what cost...?

And that's always the focus when we take on a project with our house: do it RIGHT, once, and then live with it, rather than superficially, following the latest trends (read as fads) and changing things as often as your socks. One of the modern terms/buzz words I hate that you often see online is 'Trending Now', which I see simply as a signal to brainwash the easily led.

Oh and btw, you can still buy toasters that can be fixed [all products are hand-made in house from scratch, and therefore parts can be replaced], and which are also 100% British, from Dualit: https://www.dualit.com/products/classic-toasters

Beautiful stuff; we simply wouldn't use anything else!:cool:

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

I think we should go with hydrogen powered cars. They're bound to go down a bomb :eyebrows:

[Haselsh1]

I'd love an electric powered motorbike if they're like those buggers in Tron.

[anthonyTD]

:eek::D
I'd love an electric powered motorbike if they're like those buggers in Tron.

[Pieoftheday]

I'd love an electric powered motorbike if they're like those buggers in Tron.

I know there a some electric bikes, they race them at IOM, do they have gears do you think? I think I'd miss going through the gears...

[anthonyTD]

Yes, they do indeed race them, there are a few moto GP riders [Bradly Smith being one] testing them at the moment, although they don't do the same lap distance as the moto GP bikes yet, but they are progresing!
Don't think they have gears...
I know there a some electric bikes, they race them at IOM, do they have gears do you think? I think I'd miss going through the gears...

[Alex_UK]

I know there a some electric bikes, they race them at IOM, do they have gears do you think? I think I'd miss going through the gears...

No, they don’t have gears that you change, they call it Continually Variable Transmission I believe, the same used in electric cars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pigmy Pony]

I think we should go with hydrogen powered cars. They're bound to go down a bomb :eyebrows:

I'd buy one and convert it to a butty van. "Come get your hindenburgers!" :)

[Made in 1968]

:D

[Macca]

Oh the humanity.

[Stryder5]

No, they don’t have gears that you change, they call it Continually Variable Transmission I believe, the same used in electric cars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Electric cars generally don’t have a gearbox because th DC motor produces constant torque from very low r.p.m.

Continually Variable Transmission is a different process and applies to IC engines and used a series of pulleys working with centrifugal force if I remember correctly.

[Marco]

Btw, just quickly returning to repairable toasters - a subject that Piggurs brought up - and I mentioned Dualit, have a look at this short, but very informative video, showing how proper (currently produced), fully serviceable toasters are made:


https://youtu.be/fIJruyGfnUw

Ours is also a red one... All built by hand, with British engineering at its best! Anyone else here use a Dualit?:)

Marco.

[Barry]

All built by hand, with British engineering at its best! Anyone else here use a Dualit?:)

Marco.

No, as my (British made) Russell Hobbs kettle is still happily boiling water, and I toast my bread under the grill.

But if I do have to replace the kettle, or buy a toaster, then the Dualit range very much 'push my buttons': British, hand made and capable of being repaired.

They are not cheap, but I'm prepared to pay for quality and not for some cheap Chinese made item that usually fails after a year or so. It's surprising how many products with a good established name and reputation are now made in China these days.

[Alex_UK]

if I do have to replace the kettle, or buy a toaster, then the Dualit range very much 'push my buttons': British, hand made and capable of being repaired.

They are not cheap, but I'm prepared to pay for quality and not for some cheap Chinese made item that usually fails after a year or so. It's surprising how many products with a good established name and reputation are now made in China these days.

Funnily enough I was recently looking at kettles but I had no idea Dualit make a repairable one, and in the UK to boot. I was looking for a new one as the power switch on the current Russell Hobbs one snapped off. However, a dab of super-glue and it seems to be holding, but as I have bought more kettles than any other appliance the Dualit Classic will be top of my list once i need one! The toasters look good too. :)

[Stryder5]

I’ve had my toaster for 60 years never failed, British made, never had to fix it.

Gary

[Made in 1968]

Aye
I bought a vintage Rowlett 'Regent' toaster that is about that is about 50 years old.. in fact they still make them still to this day..People like Dualit but i think they are poor comparison..

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/rowlett-rutland-regent-4-slice-toaster/dl277

[struth]

toasters now all have slots too small for british bread... most dont toast properly either.. not had decent toast since my cooker packed in

[Pigmy Pony]

No, as my (British made) Russell Hobbs kettle is still happily boiling water, and I toast my bread under the grill.

But if I do have to replace the kettle, or buy a toaster, then the Dualit range very much 'push my buttons': British, hand made and capable of being repaired.

They are not cheap, but I'm prepared to pay for quality and not for some cheap Chinese made item that usually fails after a year or so. It's surprising how many products with a good established name and reputation are now made in China these days.

+1 for the Dualit toasters - they weren't on my radar, but they are now. That sort of thing deserves our support :)

[Firebottle]

We had a Dualit coffee percolator for about 15 years until the element failed. Bought a replacement found in a charity shop for £5 but it doesn't percolate for long enough.
I may be able to make a correctly working one from the two.

Another percolator that has only just failed was a Timothy Whites brand. That was an excellent percolator, perhaps 40 years old or more?
Timothy Whites became Boots Chemist for those not in the know.

[Stryder5]

I’ve had my toaster for 60 years never failed, British made, never had to fix it.

Gary

Lol.... mine was an extendable trident shape, made it in metalwork at school, does require an open fire or bonfire.:king:

Gary

[Pigmy Pony]

Lol.... mine was an extendable trident shape, made it in metalwork at school, does require an open fire or bonfire.:king:

Gary

Extendable trident? You must have gone to one of them posh schools. We had to make do with a stick :(

[struth]

Toasting forks were still about when young. My grandad still used his

[Stryder5]

Extendable trident? You must have gone to one of them posh schools. We had to make do with a stick :(

Didn’t everybody go to Grammar School ? :D We did use sticks when we set fire to waste ground, but you had to find a forked stick otherwise the bread would rotate :)

Gary

[Pigmy Pony]

Didn’t everybody go to Grammar School ? :D We did use sticks when we set fire to waste ground, but you had to find a forked stick otherwise the bread would rotate :)

Gary

If I'd gone to grammar school I would have understood the reason for your stick being forked. So much lost toast :(

[struth]

You use 2 sticks tied together with a spacer in between near top.
You obviously didn't go to scottish school of cheapskates

[Barry]

I made a toasting fork in metalwork class at school - didn't everyone?

[struth]

I made vice protectors. (badly)

[Barry]

I made vice protectors. (badly)

Those were the first things we made in metalwork class.

[Pigmy Pony]

I made a toasting fork in metalwork class at school - didn't everyone?

Another one from a posh school methinks. You could compare 'war stories' with Gary (Stryder), who got beaten the most by the prefects, how you went on with the 'cream cracker challenge' (was that even a thing? I feel a bit nauseated just typing this) :spew:

I don't think I could have coped with getting battered just for putting an apostrophe in t'wrong place :(

[Stryder5]

Another one from a posh school methinks. You could compare 'war stories' with Gary (Stryder), who got beaten the most by the prefects, how you went on with the 'cream cracker challenge' (was that even a thing? I feel a bit nauseated just typing this) :spew:

I don't think I could have coped with getting battered just for putting an apostrophe in t'wrong place :(

The tutors...... wore gowns and mortar boards and were second in command to the 6th year prefects who had absolute power! Yearlings were treated to many “trials”, how many times your head could be flushed in the pan without crying being only one of many.

Apostrophe’s in wrong place lead to being forced to smoke a whole cigarette behind the bike sheds.

Ahh, those were the days.

:donk::spank::laugh:

Gary

[struth]

lined up, bent over, and used as a toast rack:eyebrows:

[Barry]

The Masters at my school also wore gowns, but the only time we got a beating was if we made a mistake in our Latin or Greek homework. :D

[Stryder5]

I can’t remember my punishment when caught smashing up the desks, chairs etc and throwing them all out of an open window........in defence? the school was moving that day from an old Manor House into a purpose built brand new school.

Gary

[Ninanina]

I reckon hydrogen powered cars is the way to go...

I'd have an electric car tomorrow but I have no way of charging it... anyone without a garage or driveway simply cannot charge an electric car...

If they can perfect how they extract hydrogen then that'd be a simple way of gettting zero emission cars on the road

[Made in 1968]

Well it seem our bus company are having all new Lecky busses

[Ninanina]

Well it seem our bus company are having all new Lecky busses

That has to be the way to go for public transport.. not that I ever use it though...

[dave2010]

I reckon hydrogen powered cars is the way to go...

I'd have an electric car tomorrow but I have no way of charging it... anyone without a garage or driveway simply cannot charge an electric car...

If they can perfect how they extract hydrogen then that'd be a simple way of gettting zero emission cars on the roadHydrogen storage is a problem. Several stages for getting it into cars.

1. Generate hydrogen - probably using electrolysis - uses energy.
2. Compress the hydrogen to put it into tanks (bottles?) - uses more energy

Then I think the way the hydrogen is used - probably some form of fuel cell - and the bottles would have to be swapped when the gas runs out.
I believe Toyota are selling a hydrogen based car.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/

Could be hazardous having vehicles driving around with hydrogen bottles under pressure.

[dave2010]

A couple of points - re the Mirai.

1. Hydrogen is perhaps most likely to be produced by steam reforming or gasification, rather than electrolysis. There are other ways.

At present gasification might help with other issues, such as waste disposal.

2. Hydrogen “bottles” are not swapped out, but rather the charging stations refill the containers with hydrogen under pressure.

I didn’t know this was possible/viable, but it seems it is the method used.

[struth]

98% of hydrogen is produced by steam methane reforming, which emits carbon dioxide.

[dave2010]

98% of hydrogen is produced by steam methane reforming, which emits carbon dioxide.
I didn’t know this, but see post 164 where I provided more details. Electrolysis is energy intensive, but if the electricity is produced “renewably” then no additional CO2 should be released. This might not always be the case, however.

Fuel cell efficiency as used in vehicles is unlikely to be much over 60% - a max of about 80% for the fuel cell/inverter, then a further loss in converting the electrical energy to motion.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/fuel-cell3.htm

Overall electric cars are a bit more efficient than hydrogen fuel cell cars - see the next page from the link above. Both are more efficient than petrol or diesel cars.

[struth]

yes if we have enough renewables. just have to wait see i think. its fairly early days.. Think VW pulled out of it for now anyway. Toyota are continuing. they said they were losing 100k a car on the hydrogen one.. sure this will be as its new tech and when the laws of mass production(if it happens) kick in they will get it back.