View Full Version : What about some of the other DD tables?
I know we have a lot of Technics fans here, but what's the general opinion on some of the SONY and Denon direct drive tables of the 70's? I've heard good things, but curious to your thoughts.
Thanks!
I love to hear a Trio L-07d or one of the emt direct drives
I've got a Vantage Audio modified Denon DP-3000...
Very nice thanks, I'm in no hurry to replace it for a good while yet! :)
Well I'm putting my modded Techy up against an L-07D and one of those mad Nakamichi things tomorrow night! :eek:
Should be fun :cool:
Marco.
Please report back the Trio is reported to be pretty special
aquapiranha
21-06-2010, 20:07
Well I'm putting my modded Techy up against an L-07D and one of those mad Nakamichi things tomorrow night! :eek:
Should be fun :cool:
Marco.
Bye bye Techy! :lol:
:lolsign:
hiFi dave tells me the L-07D was a pile of good looking poo at the time...
The Micro Seiki DDX/DQX 1000's wouldn't be at all bad when properly sited and they made some other solid looking concoctions too.
The Yamaha YP800 was always one I fancied back in the days before the LP12 and the Trio/Kenwood KD550 could sound fantastic with the right arm. I have an almost complete tonearm from the KD750 which resonated well by detachable headshell standards. The deck looked great too, but suffered all sorts of speed problems which could just have been preset trouble. The deck was long gone before they could fix it..
One of the very best sounding was the Sony PS-8750. The arm was good, the mat was fluid filled IIRC and the plinth inert. FAR better than an LP12, but not as "characterful," so we sold our dem one off and forgot about it for a few decades. I think the TTS-8000 took this further, but I never met one of those :(
Hi Steve,
Bye bye Techy!
Well, I might indeed be coming home crying in my soup.... :wah:
Thing is, I like to test my gear against some of the best kit out there, as it keeps one on one's toes ;)
Hi Dave,
hiFi dave tells me the L-07D was a pile of good looking poo at the time...
Honestly, where do you guys get some of that pish from??
LOL!! Well, the one I heard was utterly fantastic, better than any SP10 I've heard, and PISSED all over a £12k Linn Klimax DS (:eek:) in a rather superb system (shown below)......
Turntable: Kenwood L-07D, Linn Troika
Phono stage: ASR Basis Exclusive (battery-operated)
Network streamer: Linn Klimax DS
Preamp: Music First Audio - Reference
Active crossovers: 2 x Pass Labs XVR-1
Power amps: 2 x Meridian 559 (stereo), 2 x Albarry M408 (mono)
Speakers: Naim DBLs (on Mana sound stage)
Racks: Naim Fraim
M3Ds, Stantons, SPUs, Lenteks, Celestion Dittons, etc, are all shite, according the 'golden-eared duo's' memories from 30 years ago.... And time and time again, the Marco-boy proves yer both deaf! :lol: :lol: :ner:
;)
No, the L-07D, my dear Dave, is FAR from being a "pile of poo", and neither, I suspect, will be the Nakamichi, so feck knows what t'other Dave was listening to, or what system it was used with, when he heard it. Perhaps he still had his Linn chip firmly embedded in his bonce? :eyebrows:
Anyway, chaps and chapettes, I'll report back on my experiences when I get back tomorrow night from Dave Anderton's place - should be a good one! :cool:
Marco.
I had a Garrard DD130 back then, much better than my Amstrad TP12D but not a patch on my Rock.
pure sound
22-06-2010, 10:33
I think the deck (L07D) was supposedly a good deal better than the supplied arm. I only heard one once & briefly through a very lifeless sounding system so couldn't really comment on the deck's qualities. I did have the opportunity to try an EMT938 fairly recently but didn't like that. I suspect that in appropriate plinths the big Denons woukl generally give very good results & I would like to hear the (Micro Seiki developed) Exclusive & Onkyo efforts which along with SP10 Mk3 took things pretty much as far as DD went in the late 70's & early 80's.
The more recent Rockport, Grand Prix Audio & Brinkmann offerings also appear to have moved things along aswell.
Don't pussy foot about - this is what you want:
http://www.bridgat.com/files/Sell_Denon_DP100_M_Broadcast_Turntable.jpg
The Denon DP-100M broadcast turntable. Just whip off that arm and fit a better one! It was Denon's rival to the mighty EMT 950 and 948 decks.
Bad news - they're virtually unobtainable these days.
Regards
Beobloke
22-06-2010, 11:56
Well I'm putting my modded Techy up against an L-07D and one of those mad Nakamichi things tomorrow night! :eek:
Should be fun :cool:
Marco.
Ooooooo - which one? I'd be prepared to sell body parts to own a TX-1000, maybe even some of my own!
:eek:
As to some of the other less exotic DDs, I do like my Sony Biotracer PSB-80, although it's a little 'sterile' sounding, and the Toshiba SR-370 is a nice DD spinner that can be picked up for peanuts.
I'm also a very big fan of London Acoustical Developments' semi-pro turntables (which used a JVC motor and a variant of the Jelco SA-370 arm as standard) and, coming right back to DJ decks, I still think a standard Vestax PDX-D3Mk2 sounds better than a standard SL1200....
Hi Adam,
It's one of the babies you mention:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2568/tx1000h.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/tx1000h.jpg/)
So I suspect it'll make my Techie sound like this:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1088/motorolahifiinfiberglas.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/motorolahifiinfiberglas.jpg/)
:lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hypnotoad
22-06-2010, 15:17
The Yamaha PX 2 and PX 3 have a great following.
The high end Denons are good but the arms don't live up to the table itself.
The Pioneer P3 and others.
The Japanese made a bunch of high end Direct Drive tables that would be excellent performers today.
They occasionally come up for sale here in the U.S. on Ebay but sell for crazy prices.
For the sake of completeness, there's an italian manufacturer doing an HI-End DD TT, the "SAP Tempo".
http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/SAP-Tempo.jpg
about 10K € with no tonearm
You can read some note about it here (about the middle of the page, under "Vincenzo Fratello of S.A.P. Audio S.r.l.") :
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/cesdg2.htm
Too bad, the US importer doesn't show it anymore as selling item:
http://www.sapaudio.com/
Lol - selling my Lockwoods, as if! :eyebrows:
Dave, how can you judge how a system sounds when you haven't even heard it?
Perhaps you'd like to tell Dave Anderton, who's registered here as 'dandy', that you think his system is "poo", from a position of almost total ignorance?
Trust me, it was VERY good, even if (like you) I'm not a massive fan of DBLs, active or passive.
Agreeing to disagree though is fine by me :cool:
Marco.
I can tell what DBL's sound like without *ever* wanting to hear them again..... :lol: :D
P.S. As for my tongue-in-cheek comments regarding the L-07D, there were so very few imported into the UK IIRC.
Well, each to his or her own, but I believe in remaining open-minded about all aspects of hi-fi, and as such, my opinions are never set in stone - indeed, I reassess and re-evaluate them on a regular basis....
I find that this is a healthy (and often enlightening) attitude to have :)
Marco.
Yes it is, I agree.....
But then, I don't need to keep re-appraising beetroot to KNOW that I truly HATE the stuff :vomfest:
Indeed, but the difference is you're not just sampling the flavour of ONE individual ingredient, but rather the taste of the WHOLE dish (system)! ;)
And, anyway, regardless of that you or I think, it's rather rude (and, TBH, unacceptable) to disrespectfully dismiss someone's system as "poo", without even having heard it first.
Dave, if he reads this, has every right to be offended, so please, let's see no more rubbishing of people's systems like that.
Cheers!
Marco.
Post deleted. Please can you keep it deleted?
I don't like DBL's and honestly can find no good reason why anyone would want to own them tbh. Compared to the best that PMC and ATC offer, they really aren't good, yet the retail prices were in the same ball-park at the time, even higher in the DBL's case when you added all their gumf to drive them. Apologies to all for getting so passionate about it, but Naim sort of does this to people who've come out the other side....
Note to self, don't post when in a filthy mood!!!!!! :(
By the way, my system is beneath rubbishing. At the moment I'm considering throwing the whole load out and buying ADM's! That'll learn me I reckon....:(
I doubt that's the case, Dave. Your system's fine - go and have a few beers, chill out, and when you come back you'll be in a better mood :cool:
Marco.
Thanks. Apologies again..
No worries :)
Right, I'm off to take the Techie into the land of the unknown with a visit to Dave's and his L-07D... I shall report back later!
Marco.
Big Vern
22-06-2010, 21:05
Dear All,
Smashing thread :) Just wondering what the thinking is behind the Denon tonearms...are they viewed as off the pace by modern standards and if so, why?
Look forward to reading Marco's thoughts on the L-07D/Techie bake-off :)
Cheers,
Paul.
That's me just in... Well, that was *VERY* interesting and also extremely educational! :)
It's too late to go into detail now, so I'm off to play a few choons and then to bed. There will be a full write-up, chaps, tomorrow :cool:
Marco.
That's me just in... Well, that was *VERY* interesting and also extremely educational! :)
It's too late to go into detail now, so I'm off to play a few choons and then to bed. There will be a full write-up, chaps, tomorrow :cool:
Marco.
We'll be holding you to that Marco! So, no late nights with the 'gimp' :eyebrows:
Regards
It'll be going into Strokes of Genius, in a separate thread, Barry. I think this one should be archived for future reference :)
Ok, amigo - laters!
Marco.
Don't pussy foot about - this is what you want:
http://www.bridgat.com/files/Sell_Denon_DP100_M_Broadcast_Turntable.jpg
The Denon DP-100M broadcast turntable. Just whip off that arm and fit a better one! It was Denon's rival to the mighty EMT 950 and 948 decks.
Bad news - they're virtually unobtainable these days.
Regards
Very intriguing, you're about the only one that actually answered my question...
The "domestic" Denon arms had deliberate decoupling of the arm-tube from the bearings and I understood this was the reason for their lacklustre sound quality at the time. Long time ago though.
Hi Jeff,
Very intriguing, you're about the only one that actually answered my question...
Sorry for the thread drift; I'm afraid it's somewhat of an AOS tradition. We like discussions to 'flow' and take their own natural course. However, the mentioning of the Kenwood and Nakamichi turntables (as alternatives to the Technics) at least kept it partly on-topic :)
Ok, chaps, I'm just having my breakfast and then I'll do the report on last night's listening sesh with the aforementioned T/Ts! :cool:
Marco.
alfie2902
23-06-2010, 10:08
I'm in the process of sorting out a plinth for my Denon DP-6000, progress is pretty slow tbh but in a bodged plywood plinth results were pretty favourable :eyebrows:
I'm still not sure of plinth material long term though, options I've been looking into are a nice big block of cherry, big lump of slate or a laminated design using Acrylic & Aluminium.
I think the motor unit is very good & in the right plinth should be very good indeed :eyebrows: the Denon might just turn out to be more plinth dependant than the SP10 so I need to get it right! I hope to have a play with one of Denons plinths soon which should be interesting!
pure sound
23-06-2010, 10:21
Your Systemdek has a fairly well sorted suspension system so getting the Denon to give the same quiet 'sounds coming out of nothing' backdrop will be a challenge. One aspect is dealing with the small amount of noise/vibration that the motor must inevitably produce, the other is then providing immunity for all of it from the outside world.
jandl100
23-06-2010, 14:51
Here's a pic of the Denon DP-62L deck I used to have. Lovely looker and the sound wasn't half bad - could have done with a re-plinth and a better arm, I think.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DenonDP-62Ltt-1.jpg
I'm still torn between my Goldring GL99, SP10 in Slate plinth and Pioneer PL-71 with DIY supply and re-bodied 103R. All three have their strengths and all three work wonderfully well....
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF4339.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF4131.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF3080.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF4547_800_600.jpg
Ooooh, I'm green with envy :lol:
alfie2902
23-06-2010, 16:44
Ok, chaps, I'm just having my breakfast and then I'll do the report on last night's listening sesh with the aforementioned T/Ts! :cool:
Marco.
Have I missed this? or are you having the mother of all breakfasts?
Fret ye not, shweety, it's being written now and will be posted later. Distractions with watching the England game, etc, have delayed things :)
Marco.
Beobloke
24-06-2010, 12:57
Fret ye not, shweety, it's being written now and will be posted later. Distractions with watching the England game, etc, have delayed things :)
Marco.
All together now -
"Why are we waiting, Wh-hy are we waiting, Why are we waiting, oh why, oh why?"
:lolsign:
All together now -
"Why are we waiting, Wh-hy are we waiting, Why are we waiting, oh why, oh why?"
:lolsign:
Yes come on Marco - stop fooling around with the Gimp and just get on with it!
Are we going to have to wait for as long as the Whittlebury Hall review - which never materialised?
Regards
Nah, he's heard an early Rega Planar 2 and seen and heard "the light" :D
If any of you have slightly followed PFM in recent months, you'll remember the statement that a Rega 2 (preferably an early R200 equipped one) annihilates ALL expensive direct drives.......
Beobloke
24-06-2010, 13:37
Yes come on Marco - stop fooling around with the Gimp and just get on with it!
Are we going to have to wait for as long as the Whittlebury Hall review - which never materialised?
Regards
A very good point. I declare this official "Nag Marco" day! :ner:
Nah, he's heard an early Rega Planar 2 and seen and heard "the light" :D
If any of you have slightly followed PFM in recent months, you'll remember the statement that a Rega 2 (preferably an early R200 equipped one) annihilates ALL expensive direct drives.......
Well, I never knew that. Guess you really DO learn a new thing every day......:doh:
Hehehe... Oh to be popular, eh! :o :lol:
It's coming, people (it defo won't be a 'Whittlebury Hall case', I promise), but right now I'm watching Italy play Slovakia in the World Cup!
Marco.
alfie2902
24-06-2010, 16:28
Hehehe... Oh to be popular, eh! :o :lol:
It's coming, people (it defo won't be a 'Whittlebury Hall case', I promise), but right now I'm watching Italy play Slovakia in the World Cup!
Marco.
Oh dear :doh: I guess we will have to wait until the tears stop now! ;)
Post deleted. Please can you keep it deleted?
I don't like DBL's and honestly can find no good reason why anyone would want to own them tbh. Compared to the best that PMC and ATC offer, they really aren't good, yet the retail prices were in the same ball-park at the time, even higher in the DBL's case when you added all their gumf to drive them. Apologies to all for getting so passionate about it, but Naim sort of does this to people who've come out the other side....
Note to self, don't post when in a filthy mood!!!!!! :(
By the way, my system is beneath rubbishing. At the moment I'm considering throwing the whole load out and buying ADM's! That'll learn me I reckon....:(
Greetings.
I don't mind people thinking my system's poo, or great, whether they've heard it or not, I really don't care.
I would like to make a comment about DBLs though. I suspect 99% of folk have only heard them with Naim amplification. When used in this mode, they're as "Marmite" as the rest of Naim stuff - love it or hate it. All I would say is they can sound better with other amplification. It is not straightforward, but IS worth the effort IMO. I now have exactly the sound I want (with the emphasis on I).
Hi Dave,
All I would say is they can sound better with other amplification.
Indeed, and I would endorse that. Your DBLs sound nothing like DBLs do driven by Naim amps, the sound of which I'm intimately familiar with, having owned Naim amps for many years and having listened to Ian Walker's old Naim/DBL system whenever I've visited his place over the same length of time.
The key difference is that your DBLs lose most of the 'bleeding edge definition' and rather dry, bass-light, 'shouty' quality, synonymous with DBLs when driven by Naim amps.
The PRaT abilities, stop/start timing and dynamic alacrity of the DBLs remain intact, driven by the Albarry/Meridians, but added is a goodly dose of tonal colour, texture, and overall finesse which I've never heard DBLs produce before I heard your system.
I therefore accordingly re-evaluated and swiftly altered my previous opinion of DBLs. Experiences like that prove how dangerous it is to set one's opinions of anything in hi-fi in stone, as one day it will come up and bite you on the arse! ;)
Marco.
Hehehe... Oh to be popular, eh! :o :lol:
It's coming, people (it defo won't be a 'Whittlebury Hall case', I promise), but right now I'm watching Italy play Slovakia in the World Cup!
Marco.
Hasn't that game finished yet?
Come on Marco post the bleeding review! :)
Well I've not seen his Technics for sale yet :lol:
Oh no, I wouldn't be doing that, Leo...... ;)
Blame the weather, chaps, I'm too busy outside enjoying myself and drinking wine! :cheers:
I've got half of it done - I just need to finish the rest!
Marco.
alfie2902
26-06-2010, 13:51
Your Systemdek has a fairly well sorted suspension system so getting the Denon to give the same quiet 'sounds coming out of nothing' backdrop will be a challenge. One aspect is dealing with the small amount of noise/vibration that the motor must inevitably produce, the other is then providing immunity for all of it from the outside world.
Hi Guy,
Yes, The challanges of overcoming the slight motor noise & isolation from the outside world along with a couple of other issues are slowing down my decisions on material to use, as none of them are cheap to buy. So getting it rightish from the off just with fine-tuning afterwards is my plan. :scratch:
My thoughts atm are to use a plinth & sub-plinth with three or four damped with foam springs, effectively making it a sort of suspended design. Using some sort of adjustable cone/foot on the lower plinth for leveling & more isolation. Using something compliant between armboard & sub-plinth may-be, to help against mechanical feedback.
It's a real shame I can't find much info on Cotter's B1 base, not that I have the knowledge or skills to start stripping down the motor unit but it would be nice find out more about his plinth! (soundfoutains SP10 page has a little info)
Any ideas, suggestions would be greatly received :)
I've got half of it done - I just need to finish the rest!
Tick tock, tick tock.....
Blimey! Is that the time? :rolleyes:
Tick tock, tick tock.....
Blimey! Is that the time? :rolleyes:
No, it's another 49 hours on, your watch is really knackered Mike...
I've tried searching, but I can't find Marco's write up anywhere - could someone post a link to it here?
...no, they couldn't, could they... :rolleyes:
;)
Don't hold yer breath! :lol:
It was there briefly, but was taken down by the mods for being too contentious.
Only joking!
(note to self: remember to add smilies)
Yeah, it's about time we could all read about how the L-07D is almost as good as a fully modified (blah, blah) Technics! :lol:
Got a Denon DP-62L on the way Wed, local pickup, so we'll see how it stacks up to the 1200. Should be fun. Just picked up an ARC REF Phono 2, so it will be easy to put the same carts on both tables and switch between inputs.
Beechwoods
01-07-2010, 19:14
Well I'm putting my modded Techy up against an L-07D and one of those mad Nakamichi things tomorrow night! :eek:
I've come across a few things of late that might be of interest regarding Nakamichi's computing turntables.
This:
rUgOUftRSjk
And this, an editorial / feature from Positive Feedback about the benefits of a self-centring turntable, which I found a very interesting read.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/tx1000.htm
pure sound
01-07-2010, 21:46
It looks great & the accompanying article also makes for interesting reading. Thanks for posting both.
Despite what the article says, I can't see many manufacturers having the wherewithal to engineer something like this from scratch. Most turntable manufacturers are tiny companies and any such small company trying to do it would end up with a product that was staggeringly expensive and therefore beyond the means of almost everyone.
Sadly, I don't think it will happen.
I'd like to have a play with one of the Nak's though.
The Denon is surprisingly good! Resisting the urge to machine a new armboard and install my Triplanar.....
Is the Denon plinth ok, as this was a weakness in early ones?
Hypnotoad
02-07-2010, 16:26
I saw a Luxman PD-121 DD turntable fitted with a Denon DA-309 tonearm with an AT-OC9ML cartridge for $200.00 U.S. in near perfect condition, the cart had only a few hours on it the ad said, come on Craigslist.
Thinking I could keep the table and sell the arm for what I paid for the lot, then fit it with a Jelco.
I immediately emailed the seller and he emailed me saying he still had it and we could set up something.
Before I got a chance to email him back saying I will be there. He sent me another email saying the person he is selling it for told him he wants it back so the sale is off.
Nearly snagged a very fine turntable for next to nothing or did he realize what he could get for it?
darkstar078
07-07-2010, 20:14
Jeff, lots of Japanese manufactures whose vintage turntables [DD/belt drive] I admire. Would I mind spinning my records with a Luxman, Kenwood, Technics, Exclusive/Pioneer or a Micro Seiki ? Sure not. ;)
Damn fine beautiful turntables, yet pricey but affordable compared to today's small production audio operations.
My two cents
Buggleskelly
11-07-2010, 06:29
and Pioneer PL-71 with DIY supply and re-bodied 103R. All three have their strengths and all three work wonderfully well....
DIY supply for your PL-71 is interesting, having got a PL-71 myself. So what improvement did it give you over the native one inside?
What sort PSU / regulation circuit did you use?
Cheers / Steve
The July edition of Hi Fi World has arrived in the US and the Brinkmann Bardo does look good,
especialy with the 10.5 tonearm.
I think you could make your own tonearm pods and add additional tonearms if required.
My local dealer carries Brinkamann, so I think I will stop by and see if he has one of
these puppies on display and I see how it looks in the flesh.
(Also I wonder how much it costs in US$, what with the decline of the Euro)
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