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View Full Version : Why I disagree with the 'Support Real Stereo' Campaign



Kris
20-06-2010, 13:59
Firstly, please excuse this rant (and the fact that I haven't posted for a while, even though I have been reading!). I can assure you it's not aimed at anyone in particular, it's more aimed at correcting the urban myth and misinformation which is widely circulated by the TNT Audio 'Support Real Stereo' campaign. http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/realstereo_e.html

A few days ago I read a new post on the "Adventures in High Fidelity Audio" blog, http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/15/06/2010/real-stereoturn-me-up-and-save-fm-three-very-worthwhile-causes/ and frankly, what was written saddened me greatly. Although well meaning, it only reinforces the misinformation, and hence prompted me to write this post.


True stereophonic sound, as devised by Blumlein

What does TNT-Audio actually mean by 'true Stereophonic sound'? I think their webpage is quite clear on the matter, two discrete channels each feeding one speaker.

I think we have to take this definition as read, especially considering that if you ask most people what 'stereo' means they'll reply something along the lines of “two channel sound”.

Within the bounds of this TNT-Audio definition then, Blumlein did not invent or devise Stereophonic sound. Sorry, but he DID NOT. And in writing this post, I'm trying to set the record straight.

Firstly let’s look at the definition. Stereophonic sound does NOT mean two chanel two speaker sound. What it means is:


Stereophonic sound, commonly called stereo, is the reproduction of sound using two or more independent audio channels through a symmetrical configuration of loudspeakers in such a way as to create the impression of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing.


Yes, stereophonic sound is the reproduction of sound using two OR MORE channels (and hence speakers). Stereophonic sound therefore is multichannel sound. And this is exactly what Blumlein created.

Actually, his patent doesn’t even mention stereo or stereophonic. The term was invented by Western Electric and popularised by Decca. The term 'stereo' cannot be attributed to Blumlein. And actually, apparently, not once in any of his writings or patents does he use the term. Blumleins patent is all about recording and reproducing binaural sound using a 'plurality' of speakers. I.E. more than one, and not necessarily two

If you don’t believe me, go read his patent yourselves. It’s available online at http://www.doramusic.com/patents/394325.htm


the invention consists in a method of transmitting, recording and/or reproducing sound wherein a plurality of transmission channels so interact, each upon each, or are in such relation or so relatively modified in combination and subsequently re-separated, that the complete intelligence initially transmitted is further conveyed, differently arranged, between the channels.


He goes further than that. In his patent he even described using multiple channels and multiple speakers to capture and reproduce HEIGHT.

The TNT-Audio 'Support Real Stereo' webpage champions Blumlein, which is great, but they appear not to have read, let alone understood his patent. Furthermore, throughout their blurb they completely misrepresent his views, his patent, and his far-sightedness:


With just two correctly designed and positioned microphones


the invention is not limited solely to the use of two microphones


Ironically, the consumer electronics industry, which was given such a gift in the invention of stereo, is now shifting its attention more towards home theatre and the multi-channel sound developed primarily for that medium.


It will be clear that the invention is particularly applicable to talking motion pictures and the following description will therefore be given with reference to this application.

TNT talk about irony when the actual real irony is totally lost on them. Yes, multichannel sound, as devised by Blumlein, was specifically intended for use in the film industry! He even had the idea whilst in the cinema watching a film with his wife!

True stereophonic sound, as devised by Blumlein, is quite capable of reproducing such an event with just two channels and two loudspeakers, so why complicate the issue with more channels and more speakers?

It really is unbelievable. They champion Blumlein then ask why use more than two channels and speakers! Here's what Blumlein says:


The above described system is based upon consideration in which no account is taken of sound reflections of interference either during recording or reproduction. If difficulties arise from this cause they may be overcome by employing a second pair of loud speakers differently spaced and having a different modifying network from the first pair: or a row of speakers may be used with a composite, progressive modifying network to supply them

(My bold).

Why complicate the issue with more than two speakers? Because Blumlein foresaw and made allowances for it. Throughout his patent he actively encourages the use of more than two speakers. Why? It's quite simple and straightforward - two speakers cannot accurately reproduce (using Blumleins phrase) "a complete directional sound picture".

You see, Blumleins vision was to record the sound field created in a given space, using a plurality of microphones and reproduce that sound field using a plurality of loudspeakers. Recreating using multiple microphones and loudspeakers, the sound field otherwise obtained and reproduced binaurally. And binaural is surround sound!

Notice I'm saying 'sound field', not 'sound'. Sound field (a modern term which means roughly the same as Blumleins 'sound picture') refers to the complete three dimensional sound produced in a given space - up, down and behind, as well as from the front. So, for example, when recording an orchestra, in order to capture the sound field, one doesn't actually mic up and record the orchestra, but record the sound produced in that room while the orchestra is playing. Which is actually what Blumlein was describing in his patent. he even experimented with placing his microphones in different places in the room, far away from the band or orchestra. He was trying to capture the entire sound created in the room. In his patent he even discusses capturing and reproducing the sound created from beyond the edges of the screen.

As you know, our ears pick up sound from all around us. And when we are listening to a live concert or whatever, we are hearing the sound that is produced in that room. Both the direct sound from the players, and the indirect sound that bounces off the walls and reverberates around the room.

Stand in the middle of a group of people - you will hear sound from all around you, behind, above, and below, as well as from in front of where you are standing. Which is why Alan Blumlein was interested in obtaining: "a complete directional sound picture".

So if indeed this is so, then why doesn't Blumlein specifically mention capturing sounds from the rear? Well, Blumleins patent was so futuristic and out of the box that few people of the time could understand what he was talking about in the first place. He even had to write a few papers trying to explain his invention in plainer English. Secondly, Blumlein was primarily concerned with the transmitting and storage of two channels, to record and reproduce sounds from multiple directions, using multiple mics and multiple speakers. And it was hard enough to do encode these two channels into one record groove, let alone more than two channels! And thirdly, he had to stop work on his audio inventions in order to concentrate on more pressing issues of the day. However, even if he didn't specifically mention it, his patent is chock-a-block full of clues that point to how he would have progressed his audio experiments had he been able to.

He was very aware of sounds from the rear - which binaural recording picks up just as well as sounds from the front. The microphone and mic technique he devised was a surround sound one - a crossed pair figure of 8 which picks up sound from 360 degrees, the rear sound being reproduced out of phase, which he was well aware of and even allowed for by saying that if the sound reflections interfere with the reproduction, one can use a second pair of loudspeakers differently spaced and with a different modifying network. Without realising it, Blumlein had invented surround sound! And actually, many people (including the BBC) recognise this patent of Blumleins as being a Surround Sound patent. This is especially true not just because of his surround sound mic, but also his mentioning of the capture, recording and reproduction (using additional channels & speakers) of height information.

Now I have to admit, in this patent he was primarily concerned with accurate sound location in relation to what was happening on the movie screen, and in this regard he does say that we will naturally discount any sound not coming directly from the visual sound source. But then again, the movie screen was in front of him, Imax hadn't been invented back then!

Unfortunately Blumlein didn't have a crossed pair figure of 8 mic to work with in his experiments. If he had I am in no doubt that one of his next steps would have been to investigate the out of phase sounds coming from the rear and to place the mic in the middle of the room and have his assistants walk around the mic in a circle, whilst reproducing that sound in the downstairs auditorium using four loudspeakers. I feel it's one of the main reasons he devised the cross figure of 8 mic technique. After all, he does go into detail about the phase differences captured by the mics, and that his technique was to capture the echoes produced in a room and to be reproduced with directional significance.


To my ear only Stereo does that, as it presents the music in a believable 3 dimensional space before you, the listener, with both image width left to right, image height and image depth.

Yes, two speaker stereo does present sound in a believable 3 dimensional space before you. But natural sound doesn't just come from the front. It comes from all around us. Respectfully, two speaker stereo can never accurately reproduce an entire sound field. That's not my opinion, it's a fact. Two speaker front positioned stereo cannot accurately spatially reproduce the sound of someone sitting behind you, or above you, or below you. The only way to accurately do this (apart from binaurally) is to have a plurality of speakers positioned not only in front of you, but behind, above, and below you, reproducing a signal which has (genuinely, not artificially) captured the entire sound field.

Of course, as soon as someone mentions surround sound, one automatically thinks of 'Dolby Surround' or whatever is the flavour of the month. 2.1 5.1 7.1 9.1 etc. Frankly I am no fan of these flavours of surround sound. These are discrete systems where the sounds are purposely recorded and pushed to certain speakers. The result is mostly a false and manufactured sound field.

That said, there is an accurate way of recording a sound field (including height) into two channels. And it's a system that used by football broadcasters around the world, the BBC and many others, even some computer game producers. It's called Ambisonics.

Nimbus record all their material in Ambisonics and as they say, Ambisonics "remains unchallenged as the most coherent and effective Surround Sound system". Which is why broadcasters around the world use it.

The problem is that domestic surround sound systems can't decode an ambisonic signal, so the broadcasters have to recode the ambisonic fomat into discrete Dolby surround sound, or whatever format is the flavour of the month.

Which is a great great shame. Ambisonics is not restricted to a certain number of loudspeakers. The signal can be decoded into 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, or even 200 speakers - including any number positioned above and below your listening seat.

The other big plus with Ambisonics is that there is no 'hot seat'. As it records and reproduces the sound field of the room in which the microphones are placed, you can walk around anywhere in your listening space and still be within the sound field, just as you can walk around anywhere inside a concert hall and still be within the sound field.

The other big bonus is that an Ambisonic recording is usually of much higher quality than other systems as it's more direct mic to recording - you don't need a big recording console and you don't need to artificially change the sound in any way. yes, Ambisonics can be, and generally is, of audiophile quality.

I've been using Ambisonics for many years. I've even got an ambisonic decoder in my car. Have had for decades. (That said, I don't have any speakers above or below me!)

And no, I don't just use it to decode Ambisonic signals. It's surprisingly capable of decoding virtually any surround sound signal. Including the Pink Floyd Holophonics. If you've not heard Pink Floyd or a Nimbus CD or record, or especially the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions etc, through an Ambisonic (or other genuine non-discrete decoder) you've not heard it how it was intended to be heard. And it really is amazing. NO two-speaker system can reproduce it anywhere near accurately.

When reproducing non-surround sound material, yes, it's a bit hit and miss. Modern pop music or heavily multitracked music doesn't reproduce well, so I just switch it off. But simply recorded music, be it folk, jazz, choral, classical etc mostly sounds amazing. Far better, to my ears, than any two-channel system can reproduce it.


we declare that what we claim is: A sound and picture reproducing system . . . wherein the relative volumes of the reproducing loud speakers are so controlled as to provide apparent location of the sound original in coincidence with the optical location of the image from which the sound is supposed to emanate.

Now, can anyone who has actually READ his patent with an open mind really interpret this as meaning 'real stereophonic sound' as specifically described & promoted by 'Support Real Stereo' campaign?

The truth of the matter is that 'stereophonic' sound is the reproduction of sound using two or more independent audio channels through a symmetrical configuration of loudspeakers in such a way as to create the impression of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing. And as in natural hearing that includes sounds coming from behind, above and below us! Anything else is unnatural.

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who supports high quality two speaker stereo sound reproduction. And yes, I fully, completely agree that these modern all in one 'surround sound' systems are a total waste of space and money and do nothing to further the cause for good quality sound. However, that said, I hope I have shown that the information presented on the 'Real Stereo' webpage http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/realstereo_e.html regarding his invention is inaccurate and, frankly, in my opinion, a disgrace to the memory of Alan Blumlein, a genius who didn't invent or devise solely two speaker sound reproduction but specifically decreed & intended his patent to be a starting point in multi-speaker sound recording & reproduction chain, foreseeing a future where people would use a plurality of microphones and a plurality of loudspeakers to reproduce, in his exact words, "a complete, directional, sound picture".


Kris.

Ali Tait
20-06-2010, 14:25
Have you sent this to TNT?

Kris
20-06-2010, 14:47
No, I haven't.

Oh, btw, I forgot to give a link to an excellent BBC research video which describes ambisonics & capturing a sound field and reproducing it over their cube-octahedron ambisonic system.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/researchanddevelopment/2010/03/audio-in-the-north-part-1.shtml

It's actually well worth reading Blumleins patent then going straight to watch the video. You can almost imagine it being Blumlein being interviewed rather than a senior BBC research engineer!

Kris.

Labarum
20-06-2010, 14:48
Most of it is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound

Kris
20-06-2010, 15:00
Actually, the only thing I copied from that Wikipedia page is the definition of Stereophonic sound. Other than that I didn't refer to it at all when writing what I did. Just Blumleins patent and the TNT-Audio page. Also, btw, that Wikipedia page isn't totally accurate.

Kris.

adventuresinhifiaudio.com
20-06-2010, 15:10
Hi Kris

Firstly I feel saddened myself that one of our readers feels the following
A few days ago I read a new post on the "Adventures in High Fidelity Audio" blog, http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com...hwhile-causes/ and frankly, what was written saddened me greatly. Although well meaning, it only reinforces the misinformation, and hence prompted me to write this post. I actually don't feel after reading your post above that AIHFA has done what you say we have. However it could be argued that TNT Audio may have misused or mistakenly used what they have written to promote their cause.

If there is indeed a mistake in or misrepresentation in the TNT article then I think it very much worth your while to bring it to their attention however in saying that the main thrust of this campaign is to preserve and promote the use of two speaker audio, which is very much at threat from multi channel surround sound and this is the position AIHFA is coming from, and why we would support the TNT campaign.

I think (hope) I make it very clear where AIHFA is coming from in the article I wrote about the campaign and our support for it. I am well aware of the technical arguments for the use of more speakers both in terms of what you have mentioned above and indeed for example David Chesky's suggestions for the use of more speakers in reproducing music.The sad truth in my opinion and after all it was presented as an opinion piece (hence the subtitle As we see It)is that two channel music reproduction is once again under threat from the likes of 7.1 multichannel blue Ray sourced music and any campaign that seeks to show that effective quality music can be enjoyed via two speakers is imho worth supporting. After all multi-channel surround music to date imho has not been high-fidelity or anywhere close.

To date I have yet to hear any convincing multi channel music presentation/technology that betters what I have heard via two speakers alone.

In saying all of that if you would like to volunteer an article putting the record straight in regard to your concerns I would be very happy to publish it in Adventures In High Fidelity Audio. You retain copyright of the material and can ask at any time for it to be removed.

In fact if any one has an article technical or subjective or a review that they would like to submit I am always happy to have a look at it. Please send submissions to info@adventuresinhifiaudio.com.

From my point of view, just to set the record straight. Adeventures in High fidelity Audio is not a blog but a new growing magazine with contributors (always looking for more) other than myself.

I should also point out that AIHFA is a dedicated two channel only publication. If you read the about us section and particularly the Welcome article it outlines exactly what AIHFA is interested in.

Regards Neil

Themis
20-06-2010, 15:31
I believe that "two-channel" sound is no more a synonym of a "quality" sound than a "multi-channel" one. As a principle and as a modern application.

Now, perhaps some modern "multi-channel" is crap, but, the same kit cannot generally reproduce better "two-channel" anyway. So, imho, it has nothing to do with the number of channels. ;)

Steve Toy
20-06-2010, 15:41
How many ears do we have?

Do we need more than two sound sources, i.e. channels in order to recreate the perceived illusion of directionality to sound?

adventuresinhifiaudio.com
20-06-2010, 15:50
I believe that "two-channel" sound is no more a synonym of a "quality" sound than a "multi-channel" one. As a principle and as a modern application.

Now, perhaps some modern "multi-channel" is crap, but, the same kit cannot generally reproduce better "two-channel" anyway. So, imho, it has nothing to do with the number of channels. ;) but everything to do with the technology which to date does not reproduce music more naturally (despite its flaws) than two channel stereo does.

Multi Channel home Cinema sound is a very different proposition and not one I am opposed too, as I enjoy the movie sound experience, particularly via DTS 6.1


Regards Neil

Themis
20-06-2010, 16:03
Neil, If you mean Dolby surround, then, I would tend to agree.
Creating a multi-channel environment is not simple (not a simple field processor output) and probably impractical in a household.

But, in all honesty, as all rooms have different dimensions, it's almost as difficult for a stereo recording to match reproducing indirect sounds as they were recorded.
In other words, probably recording instruments separately in an anechoic chamber, then carefully mixing in stereo (with target room dimensions in mind) is what could be closer to reality, if only two channels are used.
But, how many recordings are made this way ? :scratch:

Perhaps the technology is still young (and probably neither mature nor of great quality) but still : it's probably the simplest way to go, imho.

Anyway, I'm probably a bit out of topic, here. :o

adventuresinhifiaudio.com
20-06-2010, 16:08
Neil, If you mean Dolby surround, then, I would tend to agree.
Creating a multi-channel environment is not simple (not a simple field processor output) and probably impractical is a household.

But, in all honesty, as all rooms have different dimensions, it's almost as difficult for a stereo recording to match reproducing indirect sounds as they were recorded.
In other words, probably recording instruments separately in an anechoic chamber, then carefully mixing in stereo (with target room dimensions in mind) is what could be closer to reality, if only two channels are used.
But, how many recordings are made this way ? :scratch:

Perhaps the technology is still young (and probably neither mature nor of great quality) but still : it's probably the simplest way to go, imho.

Anyway, I'm probably a bit out of topic, here. :o

I don't think you are off topic as such but recording in an anechoic chamber, I think would not reproduce sound as we hear it in the normal everyday world (I have to my knowledge, not heard such a recording so I am not totally sure how it would sound) . I have stood in the middle of the anechoic chamber at Jamo's facility in Denmark (now closed I think) and the experience was far from normal....very weird indeed.


Regards Neil

Stratmangler
20-06-2010, 16:12
How many ears do we have?

Most of us can fairly accurately locate sounds occurring from behind us.


Do we need more than two sound sources, i.e. channels in order to recreate the perceived illusion of directionality to sound?

It can help to have more than two sources.
However I lack the will to pursue multi-channel sound for movies - high quality 2 channel stereo hits the spot more often than not.

Ali Tait
20-06-2010, 16:20
Agreed.With the statics I can hear sounds if not directly behind me,certainly from behind my left or right ear.

Labarum
20-06-2010, 17:29
I am with you Kris to the extent that we should not be exclusive - as Themis says multi channel audio can be amazing - if properly implemented. In the home I find my son's surround sound system far too confusing - my impaired hearing just cannot cope - I am happiest with two speakers in front of me, but that's me and my problem. The quip "We have only got two ears is lamentable."

The call to defend "real" stereo is a pointless backward looking campaign; but an argument against it by appeal to Blumlein's gets us . . . where? He did a lot of work in multichannel. Did he not also do particular work on three channel recording, which was edited down to two?

Blumlein's untimely death was one of the great tragedies of World War II. His work on RADAR (particularly airborne RADAR) save undreds of thousands of lives, saved the British Isles from starvation, and made more certain or victory over the NAZIS. He is not recognised for the massive contribution he made.

But, to return to the subject: in common usage "stereo" means "two channel stereo": an appeal to etymology gets us nowhere; and nothing is to be gained by arguing otherwise.

Defend your case with other arguments.

twelvebears
20-06-2010, 19:11
How many ears do we have?

Do we need more than two sound sources, i.e. channels in order to recreate the perceived illusion of directionality to sound?

Yes we do Steve, because the ears and brain are capable of truly directional hearing. Otherwise we would only be able to tell if a sound was coming from the left of right but not whether it was in front or behind.

A simple stereo microphone wouldn't be able to record the difference between fore and aft, only left and right and so it can't be conveyed through stereo speakers.

The reason we are able to tell direction without having the ability to swivel our ears like animals is that the shape of the outer ear causes slight frequency shifts and delays depending on whether a sound originates in front or behind, which the brain is able to interpret.

Mr. C
21-06-2010, 11:00
I really cannot believe you guys are getting flustered over semantics.
Real stereo can be exceptionally good, as can a correctly set up multi channel system.
I am surprised Neil feels this is not the case, as with all his experience working in 'hifi' for 30 or so years. Perhaps you could elaborate for the AOS guys please Neil why you personally feel it not yet arrived.
True multi channel sounds is amazing convincing provided you remove the 'stereo' concept from your head. It is a totally different method of protraying music, and when you first listen to it the words 'confused, that’s all wrong, what the hell is going etc' come into your head.
Multi channel is purely about placing you in the centre of the performance, the hub of the musical carousel. A correctly set up system immerses you into the music, within a totally seamless bubble of sounds. It does take some getting used; it really can fox the senses without question!
Most people have the same concept of multi channel until they hear a properly implemented set up. Then their minds open and they become strangely impressed lol

Gazjam
21-06-2010, 11:57
How many ears do we have?

Do we need more than two sound sources, i.e. channels in order to recreate the perceived illusion of directionality to sound?

My Post Of The Day!
spot on.

My brain and ears are 5.1


:cool:

Marco
21-06-2010, 12:16
My Post Of The Day!
spot on.


Even though it was made yesterday? :lol:

Marco.

adventuresinhifiaudio.com
21-06-2010, 14:26
I must admit to being somewhat surprised at the reaction to the Real stereo campaign which TNT have been running for years now. To my knowledge (though I could be wrong) there has been no wholesale attack upon TNT Audio's position or the many magazines, manufactures, distributors or retailers who are happy to place this logo on their websites. I guess one could argue that most of them do so purely to gain more free advertising and a link to their own sites. Therefore their decision is fuelled by hanging on the coat tails of a well established on-line magazine and the benefits of being linked to them and vice a versa (if one was being overly cynical) rather than any true desire to promote and defend two channel audio reproduction.

Tony I think I have made it fairly clear by using "so far" in my replies that I will concede that so far I have not heard a convincing surround sound/multi channel reproduction of music. Getting into the products I have heard or the where etc is imho a bit of a red herring as such, as the problems exist with all the technology so far commercially available and not so much the products which can only work with what they have internally. The only set up I have not heard to date is the Chesky one which might do it well, but until I do, if ever, I will continue to hold to the opinion that two channel stereo reproduction offers a,more natural representation of music to my ears than multi channel does.

One could say that retailers who sell multi-channel set ups would support it as they gain extra speaker sales over a two channel set up, but I am sure that is not the case with yourself. I have sat among musicians playing electric and acoustic and no multi channel system or software has represented that experience correctly, that I have heard so far. However even if it did, I would prefer to listen to a mid hall representation and occasionally front row presentation and not in among them sound.

One other fundamental technical issue to make this 3 D experience work is the fact that it would in the main be discrete rear/above channel information that would help create the natural acoustic that the music was recorded in; assuming it is recorded in a natural acoustic in the first place. I think many (general public favouring wam bam movie sound) would not find that sound that exciting for them or plain wrong (dedicated audiophile music lovers) and the idea of a speaker or speakers in the ceiling as well as multiple speakers at the front and rear would for most, put them off. In the real/general world many times, even a pair of speakers alone can cause a major domestic. I would also imagine that for it to work/be coherent, as in say, the way the THX spec works, all the speakers would need to be identical both in voicing and size. Can you see that working in the average UK home ? Having worked in the trade selling gear both two channel and Home Cinema, getting even 6.1 was a struggle and all we were talking about was one extra back centre speaker not multiple ceiling mounted speakers as well.

It says quite clearly in the Adventures in High Fidelity Audio "welcome article" or mission statement, that the title is not interested in covering Home Cinema, Multi Channel sound etc but only two channel. I wanted to make that clear from the off so there would be no confusion. AIHFA is a two channel stereo only title so joining the real stereo campaign was a natural thing for AIHFA to do. If you want to read about multi channel sound then Kal Rubinson covers it very well in Stereophile.

I don't know what more there is to say on the subject from my point of view.

Regards Neil

Mr. C
21-06-2010, 17:52
Tony I think I have made it fairly clear by using "so far" in my replies that I will concede that so far I have not heard a convincing surround sound/multi channel reproduction of music. Getting into the products I have heard or the where etc is imho a bit of a red herring as such, as the problems exist with all the technology so far commercially available and not so much the products which can only work with what they have internally. The only set up I have not heard to date is the Chesky one which might do it well, but until I do, if ever, I will continue to hold to the opinion that two channel stereo reproduction offers a, more natural representation of music to my ears than multi channel does.

Neil,

I am surprised at you reply, it was terribly dismissive given your position on the forum and the owner of an internet review site (which I must confess is most unlike you).
I also feel you are somewhat short changing the members of your considerable knowledge when it comes to things all matters hifi.

"The problems that exist with the technology", in what respect Neil? could you elaborate on this for us please genuinely interested on this point.
How would you personally go about setting up a multi channel system to obtain that "more natural representation of music to my ears?"



One could say that retailers who sell multi-channel set ups would support it as they gain extra speaker sales over a two channel set up, but I am sure that is not the case with yourself. I have sat among musicians playing electric and acoustic and no multi channel system or software has represented that experience correctly, that I have heard so far. However even if it did, I would prefer to listen to a mid hall representation and occasionally front row presentation and not in among them sound.


Indeed Neil one could say that any retailer could indeed recommend 'extra' equipment sales by suggesting a multi channel system over traditional two channel set up I agree 100%.
Though that boils down the ethics, and experience of the dealer involved.
Have you considered that the client may have asked for a M/C system in preference to a stereo one?
However there are times when a client wishes for something with an extra dimension and reality they wish to obtain, which in essence is the customer’s choice.
Though we would on these occasions audition the client a quality two channel before venturing on to multi channel just to confirm this is path they wish to take.



One other fundamental technical issue to make this 3 D experience work is the fact that it would in the main be discrete rear/above channel information that would help create the natural acoustic that the music was recorded in; assuming it is recorded in a natural acoustic in the first place.



This point is addressed by the genuine 6:1 system a centre channel at the front and rear, to pairs of stereo speakers one at the front, one at the rear and a dedicated sub woofer which has been around for a good while now.
Where the music was recorded has no bearing on the statement at all, the final mixing will determine which channels receive the relevant information to generate the ambient sound field that the engineer is try to recreate.



I think many (general public favouring wam bam movie sound) would not find that sound that exciting for them or plain wrong (dedicated audiophile music lovers).

Neil,

That is very broad brush statement, and if I may a little disingenuous to the populous there Neil.
Trying to categorise the buyers into two distinct camps is very wrong, they cover a huge range of tastes and styles.
Besides do you know many 'dedicated audiophile music lovers' people that just buy Chesky discs, and such audiophile recordings to listen too.
Pretty sure I can count those on one hand, not a fair representation of buying public there.
So in essence you are saying they are either boom and tizz or sweet wide open sound staging with virtually no dynamics then Neil?



The idea of a speaker or speakers in the ceiling as well as multiple speakers at the front and rear would for most, put them off.

I would say this is a fair comment Neil the amount of equipment required is more for sure and it would be rejected on those grounds of physical space and looks beside price, though certainly not applicable to everyone who is interested.
Speakers in the ceiling for a high quality multi channel set up, I would share this point with you Neil, yet to hear any of them perform well in a true quality sense.



In the real/general world many times, even a pair of speakers alone can cause a major domestic.
I also can agree on this point, having a pair of boxes in front room for a lot of guys partners is like asking to have Megan fox home for a sleep over :)
One of the biggest bug bears WAF
However a lot of guys do have their 'own space rooms' so that issue is not contented with (I know lucky sods!)



I would also imagine that for it to work/be coherent, as in say, the way the THX spec works, all the speakers would need to be identical both in voicing and size.

Reality would concur on a few points here Neil, having a centre that tonally matches the front speakers in a cinema set is paramount, as with multi channel it is desirable to have a matching rear centre channel from the same speaker 'series'
As for size, there is a little leave way here, we have run matching series stand mounts on the rear channels to floor standing front speakers.



Can you see that working in the average UK home ? Having worked in the trade selling gear both two channel and Home Cinema, getting even 6.1 was a struggle and all we were talking about was one extra back centre speaker not multiple ceiling mounted speakers as well.

Yes I would again say fair point for 50% of possible sales, some people will steadfastly refuse because of space/wife/partner issues, and others will say ok let’s do this.



It says quite clearly in the Adventures in High Fidelity Audio "welcome article" or mission statement, that the title is not interested in covering Home Cinema, Multi Channel sound etc but only two channel.

Now there in lies some the confusion, this is AOS not AIHFA the question was put clearly here on AOS, Kris cited an piece on AIHFA relating to real stereo and there misinterpretation of the term 'Real Stereo'

Now Neil you are in a position of trust and respect as moderator here on AOS and therefore discretion should have won through PM'd the gent and discusses off 'piste'' so to speak.

You also later in the thread openly invite people to send in article and review, not too much blatant self promotion there.
Do you not see a conflict of interest here, certainly does look good from this side of the fence.



In fact if anyone has an article technical or subjective or a review that they would like to submit I am always happy to have a look at it. Please send submissions to AIHFA







I wanted to make that clear from the off so there would be no confusion. AIHFA is a two channel stereo only title so joining the real stereo campaign was a natural thing for AIHFA to do. If you want to read about multi channel sound then Kal Rubinson covers it very well in Stereophile.

I don't know what more there is to say on the subject from my point of view.

Regards Neil

No harm in stating your ground, I am pretty sure everyone well aware of your two channel preference, bearing honest mine too.
However do not dismiss multi channel it is really special, though is a complete departure for the real stereo!
The last remark on the last paragraph was a bit flippant Neil, well if Iam not doing it try so in so.
How many readers of Stereophile on AOS ?, I believe Alvin Gold is an ardent multi channel lover perhaps there are some UK based reviews?
Just for the record I too agree with real stereo, it is possibly how most people think of quality music reproduction.

Barry
21-06-2010, 19:10
There seems to be some confusion on Blumlein’s work on ‘stereo’. Without becoming parochial, it is best perhaps to look at the history of Blumlein’s thoughts on sound reproduction.

One day in 1931, Alan Blumlein took his wife to be, Doreen, to the cinema and said to her during the film: "Do you realise the sound only comes from one person?" Doreen, by her own admission not a technical person, replied, "Oh does it?" and he said, "Yes. And I've got a way to make it follow the person".
Alan Blumlein had just tried to describe his first thoughts about the system he would always call 'Binaural Sound', but which has come to be know better as Stereophonic or 'Stereo' Sound. Blumlein explained to Doreen that, if she could imagine being blind, and sitting in the cinema, she would be able to point out exactly where the person was on the screen with his system. This, of course, was what he was trying to achieve, not the effect where the sound appeared to come from one side of the screen when the actor was at the other side.

On 14 December 1931, Alan Blumlein applied for his famous patent, 394325, “Improvements In and Relating to Sound-Transmissions, Sound-Recording and Sound-Reproducing Systems”, in which he describes in great detail, an electronic method of reproducing sound from two microphones and two loudspeakers. He called this system 'Binaural' from the human factor of having two ears by which we hear sound.

In this patent, Blumlein describes a method of reproducing sound for cinema in which the sound would 'follow' the actor as he/she moves across the screen. This method was eventually adopted with the first major motion picture to benefit being 'Ben Hur' in 1959. However, long before the concept of Ben Hur had been drawn up, Blumlein and his team had experimented with stereo sound film cameras. During the summer of 1935, they spent many weeks on location in and around Hayes, filming all manner of subject material. Of these films, all of which survive, perhaps the most famous are 'Trains at Hayes Station', in which a steam locomotive was recorded as it left the station, the familiar puff, puff, of the train moving from right to left in the loudspeakers as the train moved away from the platform. In one short piece of footage, which has become known as 'Walking & Talking', Blumlein himself appears briefly, walking across a stage at EMI, counting from one to seven. As he walks his voice quite distinctly 'moves' from the left loudspeaker to the right, following his motion.

Despite the work proving very successful, Isaac Shoenberg and EMI were concerned that the Binaural experiments would have little commercial value. It was a time when most people could barely afford one loudspeaker, let alone two. There was also the pressing need for Blumlein to concentrate on the development of television.

By the Autumn of 1935, the team felt confident enough in their experiments to produce a small play filmed entirely with the Binaural film camera. Filmed in the auditorium at EMI, Hayes with the help of the amateur dramatic society made up from company employees, the results were encouraging. But the experiments were shelved soon after in order to complete the television work.
It was intended that Blumlein would return to it later, but following his work completing the television system, Blumlein found his attention drawn to radar; a ‘pressing’ need of his abilities at the time.

Many years would pass before enthusiasts at EMI would resurrect Binaural sound. Only then did they discover that much of the modern surround sound system that we employ today in cinema and home entertainment was laid down precisely by Alan Blumlein nearly 70 years ago.

Blumlein’s early innovations included a moving-coil wax cutter head for gramophone lathes and a moving-coil microphone. However, throughout the audio world, he is best known for the 1931 patent, simply entitled “Improvements In and Relating to Sound-Transmissions, Sound-Recording and Sound-Reproducing Systems.”

In his patent (394325), Blumlein examines the physiology of the human binaural hearing process and the spatial illusion produced by “two or more loudspeakers”; the use of multiple microphones is described—including the crossed figure-8, also known as cosine or dipole (now known as the Blumlein technique) and Mid-Side stereo-miking methods; details a dual 45/45-degree phono cutter head for producing stereo record masters; and proposes a means of transmitting stereo radio. Many of the concepts in this patent did not reach fruition for decades to come, but all have had an enormous impact on the evolution of audio.

What Blumlein discusses, inter alia, is Ambisonics (the encoding/decoding solution used in this system) and is in some ways easier to understand. For this reason, Blumlein's Binaural Sound is an important system, and aids one’s understanding of coincident microphone techniques. Blumlein’s patent in 1931 both recognised the problems with the Bell Labs approach and defined a method for converting spaced microphone feeds to a signal suitable for loudspeaker reproduction. Blumlein called his invention Binaural Reproduction. This recording technique comprised of two omni-directional microphones spaced at a distance similar to that found between the ears, with a round panel baffle in between them. This technique was known to work well for headphone listening, but did not perform as accurately when replayed on loudspeakers. Blumlein realised that for loudspeaker reproduction, phase differences at the speakers (i.e. in the spaced microphone recording) did not reproduce phase differences at the listener’s ears. This was due to the unavoidable crosstalk between the two speakers and the two ears of the listener, as shown on the right.

Blumlein had discovered that in order to reproduce phase differences at the ears of a listener, level differences needed to be presented by the speakers. His invention included the description of a ‘Shuffling’ circuit, which is a device that converts the phase differences, present in spaced microphone recordings, to amplitude differences at low frequencies (as at higher frequencies the amplitude differences would already be present due to the sound shadow presented by the disk between the two microphones).

If we consider the stereo pair of loudspeakers shown above, it can be seen that there are two paths from each speaker to each ear of the listener. If the sound that is recorded from the Blumlein stereo pair of microphones is to the left of centre, then the left channel’s signal will be greater in amplitude than the right channel’s signal. Four signals will then be transmitted to the ears:
1. The left speaker to the left ear.
2. The left speaker to the right ear.
3. The right speaker to the right ear.
4. The right speaker to the left ear.
If we take the case of a low frequency sound (where the inter-aural phase difference is the major cue), as the paths from the speaker to the contra-lateral (far) ear is longer than from the speaker to the ipsi-lateral (near) ear, the signal will appear delayed in time (but not changed in amplitude, due to the wave diffracting around the head). The resulting signals that arrive at each ear are shown in the figure to the right.

The low frequency phase cues can be encoded into a stereo signal using just amplitude differences and once the head starts to become a physical obstacle for the reproduced signals (at higher frequencies), a level difference between the ears will also become apparent.

Nowhere does the word ‘stereophonic’ appear in Blumlein’s patents. I think this is probably due to Blumlein’s interest in encoding sounds that can appear anywhere, 360º, around the head; whereas, of course ‘stereophonic’ is the aural parallel of ‘stereoscopic’, and means ‘solid sound’ – suggesting well focused and precisely positioned sound images.

His patent was so far ahead of it’s time, it would be another 20 years before it was fully appreciated, long after Blumlein's tragic early death in 1942. Of course, today, we know Binaural as 'Stereo'.

Alan Blumlein was an incredibly modest man, and would be the first to credit the work carried out by his colleagues. While it was Blumlein's genius, which came up with the concept of binaural, it was his colleagues, and their work at EMI, which made the sound experiments possible Amongst these were Herbert Holman and Henry 'Ham' Clark. Holman and Clark had been working on a recording and reproduction system for records at Columbia since 1927. When, in 1929, Isaac Shoenberg brought Alan Blumlein to Columbia, it was with the specific intention of improving this record production system. Together the three men managed to produce an electromechanical system, which overcame the patents held by Bell Labs, which forced Columbia, and anybody else for that matter, into paying a royalty on every record they produced. The Blumlein/Holman system not only overcame the royalty problem, but also to vastly improved the quality of record reproduction, quality which survived late into the 20th century. Herbert Holman also put his initial to one half of the 'HB' microphone series. These revolutionary microphones were not only used to record all the later binaural experiments, but were so good, that the BBC adopted them for use at Alexandra Palace for television recording well into the 1950s.

There is no mileage in arguing exactly who invented stereo, or even to 'sign up' to the ‘campaign for real stereo’. Suffice it to say that the Americans for many years used three equi-spaced omni-directional microphones recording onto tape machines fitted with three track heads, only then to mix down to two tracks by splitting the centre channel and adding this to the left and right channels. Today most recordings using a simple single pair of microphones are done following the Blumlein technique and, for many listeners, avoid the phase anomalies accompanying multi-miked techniques, especially that caused with close miking.

Information taken from:
mixonline.com › TECnology Hall of Fame

www.doramusic.com/index_blumlein.htm
www.doramusic.com/Stereo.htm

uod-true-multi-channel-mixing.wikispaces.com/Blumlein+Stereo

magiccarpetride
21-06-2010, 20:11
No, I haven't.

Oh, btw, I forgot to give a link to an excellent BBC research video which describes ambisonics & capturing a sound field and reproducing it over their cube-octahedron ambisonic system.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/researchanddevelopment/2010/03/audio-in-the-north-part-1.shtml

It's actually well worth reading Blumleins patent then going straight to watch the video. You can almost imagine it being Blumlein being interviewed rather than a senior BBC research engineer!

Kris.

Dont' have much to contribute to the conversation, but just wanted to comment how I've always found it ironic that the most popular mainstream application of the surround sound is to be found in the home theater. I mean, here we are, sitting in our living rooms/dens etc., glued to the TV screen, and yet we're expected to pay attention to some sounds that are coming from behind??? Like, how stupid is that?

If I am to hear an interesting/curious sound coming from behind, my natural tendency would be to turn around and SEE what's going on, no? But wouldn't that interrupt the flow of the movie/concert I'm watching in front of me?

I've never been able to grasp that concept. Also, despite the fact that movie theaters nowadays purport to feature surround sound in their projection rooms, I can't recall when was the last time I've noticed sounds coming from behind, or from the floor, or from some other weird location? You?

To me, full frontal stereo is how I want to listen to music. I'm not interested in any music that may be hitting me from the back. Why would I find any coherence in that?

Also, I'm not keen on hearing any music coming at me from the top of my ceiling, right above where my seating position is. That would right down freak me out.

Same is for any music hitting me from the floor, from beneath my feet. That would be just a stupid gimmick, to me at least.

In summation, I am a traditionalist who likes to sit down, face the source of the music, and focus on the sound that's coming from the area in front of me. I don't want to be forced to move my head/body in order to react to some sounds that are hitting me from an unexpected area.