View Full Version : Sony Playstation 1.
combwork
08-06-2008, 16:51
Has anyone here tried using these as a CD player? I first read about it on AudioKarma; a US based site primarily concerned with 'vintage' Hi-Fi. It's something to do with the DACs used on specific models so it's important to get serial numbers within a certain range but if you do, the sound is outstanding, at least to my 59 year old ears...................
It's mentioned on another thread somewhere on here....
General consensus was it's pretty poor.
Here you go:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=656&highlight=playstation
Been there, done it, and it's cack (unless your standards are very low).
Marco.
combwork
09-06-2008, 11:58
Been there, done it, and it's cack (unless your standards are very low).
Marco.
Hmmmmm. My standards are quite high. I repair antique musical boxes for a living and this involves quite a bit of tuning. Realistically, not high frequency stuff; the highest note you're likely to find on any musical box is equivalent to the top note on a piano but to me, it's whether something sounds musical that counts. I have to admit I've not been using a dedicated CD player, just a Panasonic DVD/VCR unit but comparing that with the PS1, the PS wins hands down. More detail in the music, more depth in the music. Not necessarily noticeable on all CDs but not all CDs are equal. I've a couple of giveaway CDs that came with Hi-Fi world. Confusingly they bear the NAIM name (I thought NAIM just made amplifiers?) but the sound is so good......In a way it's annoying; I can't sit and read a book with the music in the background; I end up putting the book down and just listening to the music. I don't know whether it's relevant but my system is SONY PS1 > NAD3020B > QUAD ESL57s. I'm using 'nothing special' speaker cables and a rather nicely made lead for the Playstation. This lead (bought off Ebay) has three RCA plugs on the output end and is a heavy lead. My playstation is serial number SCPH5502. The last 2 digits designate region coding, but apparently have no relevance to the audio side of things. It was thought that the one to go for would have been 500(?) but apparently Sony used the same 'good' DAC in the 550 series. So what's to believe? My ears tell me the Playstation sounds better than the DVD/VCR but I've not tried it against a good quality dedicated CD player...............Oh, one other point. Various posters on AudioKarma have really gone into this thing in depth, and apparently the one to go for is not the model with RCA sockets on the back, it's the one with the multi out. This is because of the way the internal wiring is routed on the model with RCA sockets...........Oh Well. It's what pleases MY ears that matters most to me:violin:
Hi Combwork,
I don't doubt your experiences. I'm also sure you'll appreciate that a DVD/VCR is not the best frame of reference. I'm talking about in comparison to hi-end CDPs, but if you're happy, you're happy.
I know what I heard when a Playstation (the 'best' one) was used as a CD source in a top-notch system, and it was very poor indeed compared to what I'm used to with my Sony X777ES/DAS-R1. In fact even mentioning them in the same sentence is laughable.
I guess it just depends on what you're used to. Your last sentence is bang on :)
Marco.
Phil Bishop
09-06-2008, 13:22
This all reminds me of my little experiment recently which was the subject of another post on the importance of CD transports. I deliberately sought out the cheapest DVD/CD player I could find, a £15 Asda jobbie, and put it thru the well received Beresford DAC and into an Audiolab/Epos system. I found it difficult discerning the difference between this and a £500 Arcam transport. I then thought OK, lets have a laugh and bypass the DAC and use the analogue output sockets from the Asda player through my system. Blow me down, it did not sound too bad! A bit one dimensional maybe, but really not too bad at all.
Similar to an experience a few years ago when I used a £100 Cambridge Audio CD player from Richer Sounds - could not differentiate it from my £1K plus Arcam combo of the time!
I am now thinking that the old arguement about spending a lot on the "source" components were digital is concerned may be misguided - amps and speakers make a bigger improvement for the money?
Yes they do, but remember also the discussion we had recently about transports ;)
There are many variables to consider.
Marco.
Also i think the Beresford is very much an entry level DAC. Despite the enthusiastic reception it got, it's only one small step up from most cheap built in DACs. Which is probably why you didn't hear a great deal of difference.
I've noticed a few owners selling theirs.
To get a real improvement it might be necessary to spend a bit more or have a go at DIY to keep the costs down.
Having said that even small improvements sometimes cost a lot of money.
If you start buying better amps and speakers you enter a vicious circle, because you will probably be able to hear the shortcomings in a cheap source.
I personally would not touch anything that uses a PCM1716, very poor performing dac chip IMHO.
Hi Leo,
Is that what's used in the Beresford or the Playstation?
Marco.
BajaGringo
10-06-2008, 08:39
Oh Well. It's what pleases MY ears that matters most to me:violin:
That is something that I believe in as well and don't always follow "conventional thought" with my audio gear / setup. etc.
That having been said, it is a much more progressive group here on AoS than AK where (as you correctly noted) the main focus is on old school HiFi. I have learned much on this very subject of digital in the past few weeks here. I would suggest you consider taking a page from my book - listen a bit to the discussion and read some of the threads here before forming any final conclusions.
There have been some great posts throughout the threads and a couple by Marco that I actually copied down just to do some research and think about over a Cadiallac Margarita or two.
Just my dos centavos.
:confused:
Hi Leo,
Is that what's used in the Beresford or the Playstation?
Marco.
Hi Marco,
The PCM1716 was used in the Beresford I listened to here, I think the Playstation uses one of the cheaper AK chips
Ah, I see. I think the Beresford is excellent value for money but I was somewhat under-whelmed when I heard it recently. That was without its separate PSU, though, which apparently makes a big difference.
If the Playstation uses an even cheaper DAC chip then together with its awful switch-mode power supply one wonders how people can think it sounds good :confused:
Marco.
The Net Audio Sonance also uses that 1716 chip (I also have one of those on loan from a friend) , its pretty much maxed out but tbh I find any unit using this chip to have the typical digital signature and a really lousy midrange
Stick in the diy dac unit using the TDA1541A S2 and it knocks you onto your backside:lol:
If the Playstation uses an even cheaper DAC chip then together with its awful switch-mode power supply one wonders how people can think it sounds good :confused:
Marco.
Its when they finally get a taste of something that is actually very good quality this poorer performance is realized
Yep, I totally agree. It's the old 'frame of reference' thing again.
It's like with wine... You can taste a £5 bottle of Chianti and think it's excellent, but it's not until you try a £20 bottle that you appreciate the difference and can judge how ordinary in fact the £5 bottle is!
Mind you if you're used to drinking Lambrini then I guess anything tastes good :lolsign:
The Playstation 1 isn't *that* bad as a CD player, and I'm sure is perfectly acceptable in the right system, but I feel it's important that people don't get too carried away and think they've got a high-end CDP on the cheap, because it's a long way off from being that. Just accept it for what it is and enjoy it.
Marco.
P.S Baja, thanks for the compliment. We're all learning from each other all the time with hi-fi, including me. I'm certainly enjoying the input from you guys from across the pond. The day that you think you know it all is the day you need to take a serious reality check!
Phil Bishop
10-06-2008, 11:05
I am interested in two comments, one from Marco and one from Leo. Marco - what is the separate PSU for Beresford - I have not heard of this? Leo - what is the DIY DAC using TDA1541A S2? Please do let me know about these.
Personally, I have been very pleased with Beresford linked to an old Arcam delta 170 transport - for a combined cost of £200ish it sounds great IMHO. However, I would love to hear the DAC Leo refers to or similar - how do I do this?
On the more general subject of digital source value for money, on which there has been much debate in various threads I would add the following. I don't have a "high end" system. However, when comparing £1K CD set up to a £15 jobbie from Asda (particularly via a DAC) the differences were subtle. However, i recently sold a pair of cheap Wharfedale Diamond speakers for £30 or so and they sounded HORRIBLE in relation to my £500 Epos speakers. So this leads me to believe there is potentially better value for money upgrading speakers and possibly amps than digital sources....BUT, I do take the point that only a better system may reveal the better sources, etc.
BajaGringo is right - this is an enlightened Forum. My quest on my modest budget is to seek out those bargains, those older classics, etc. Yes Marco, I am still keeping an eye out for the Sony CDPs! Phil.
combwork
10-06-2008, 16:18
I would suggest you consider taking a page from my book - listen a bit to the discussion and read some of the threads here before forming any final conclusions.
:confused:
Gladly:) In fact my problem with Hi-Fi had been a gadfly approach, hooking various things together in the vain hope that I'd find some kind of audio nirvana. Thanks to free shipping (long story; Fedex owed me one) I bought a non working Pioneer SX-1980 from a seller in Houston, then had it sent to a top class tech to have it fully overhauled before getting it delivered over the water to Scotland. The Pioneer was to be the centerpiece of my system; the hunt was on to find a pair of vintage speakers to do it justice then by luck (they were on my doorstep), found a pair of Quad ESL57s. Enough people warned me about what a horrible mis-match the SX1980 > ESL57 would be, so I took a chance and bought cheap a 'non working' NAD3020B from a bulk seller on Ebay. Turned out it worked fine; all someone had done was push in the tape monitor switch. The Quads had been in dry storage for some 20 years or so, so again following advice I connected them to the mains and left them alone for three days, after which I connected everything up, and at the flick of a switch changed everything............... A solid state amp made in the late 1980s driving a pair of speakers made the year I started Secondary school. Beautiful, but not making use of the Pioneer so again, after asking advice, I connected the Pioneer pre-out to the NAD power-in.
That was the combination that had me routed to my chair, all thoughts of reading a book while the music played forgotten. To be truthful it was a cumbersome setup; 70 Lbs dead weight of top quality Pioneer receiver hooked to a 'little' NAD driving Quad ESLs but it worked. Then events took over (again); the rocking of the washing machine turned out not to be because it was out of balance, but because underneath the lino on which it was standing, the floor was rotting away. The only thing I had to sell to find the kind of money needed was...........the Pioneer SX-1980. The deed was done, so for now I'm back with the NAD Pre/power > ESL57s. But maybe not for long. Thanks to an add in the classified section of Hi-Fi world, I am about to become the proud owner of a pair of B & W DM70s.
Do you see where this is going Baja Gringo? I've been listening, learning and experimenting most of my adult life. Not always to good effect, but there's always room for one more experiment, even if it does involve another screwdriver with the tip burned off. I may well end up back in the world of valves, my first 'Hi-Fi' was a Williamson power amp driving an old 12" speaker of unknown make but this was back in the 1970's when I ran a small shop (named Sounds Peculiar just on the edge of Southend on Sea). Things change because that's what things do; it's their nature. You learn, you forget; you blow things up then learn again and eventually some of the information sticks.
I'm sorry if I've come on a bit strong about Play-stations being the 8th wonder of the world, but if all else fails you can at least use them for their intended purpose:guns::guns::mad::laser::guns::mad::goodbye :
BajaGringo
10-06-2008, 21:53
We are on the same page my friend. Most of my experience in this arena has come via trial and error - just sitting down in front of the system and deciding for myself if it worked or not. That is something that was easier to do in the "old world" as it basically just involved hooking up RCA cables and deciding how far off the floor/away from the walls you wanted your speakers. Today we are interfacing our computers into our audio systems and that has opened up a can of worms so large and diverse that I have really had to "go back to school" to try and keep up. It is a lot of fun and if you saw my setup you would see that even us old buzzards can get into the new digital phase...
Do what I do, pour a cold drink, put on some tunes and listen to these guys here who really know what they are doing. They have taught me a lot on the subject and I continue to learn...
Stock, the PS1 is really nothing special and has some serious flaws with regard to audio. The output stage causes treble roll-off, sounds relatively shit and needs to be bypassed. I followed http://dogbreath.de/ and used cat5 wire. I also replaced some power supply caps.
The SMPS is also a big problem, as it WILL add a haze to the sound and generate considerable amounts of noise. It's also worryingly close to the CD transport, so does need to be put into an external box. When I've got the time, I'll add a linear regulated supply to mine.
When looking at the PS1's circuitry and attention to grounding (it's actually pretty well built), at the heart of it is a transport designed for low jitter performance for 32bit 3D games, so the clock distribution circuit is way overkill and is something not seen on regular CDPs. The timing of this player is ridiculous, with an obvious flaw with mine in regard to bass depth and weight.
There is a consensus that it's the transport side of things that gives the PS1 good sound, not the DAC per se. I do think there's a reason these players have found their way into a variety of high end setups, have a big following in Germany and are popular with DIYers.
Different horses for different courses I guess. I'd be happy to send mine onto someone after I've fitted an outboard power supply.
Good post, Yomanze - very informative. The question I would ask though is it really worth all that effort to end up with a glorified piece of mass-produced plastic, particularly when loads of good quality CDPs from renowned manufacturers are available on Ebay for next to nothing? And how much is spent during the modifying process you've just detailed?
Marco.
Hi Marco, only if you're a DIYer :P I think for £50 parts, you could turn a Sony PS1 into something special. It wasn't designed to be a CD player and there are things that do need to be done to bring it onto a HiFi level. The work could be done if a weekend was put aside no probs. No more work involved than taking a commercial model from a renowned manufacturer & ripping the power supply and output stage out anyway ;)
Phil Bishop
11-06-2008, 16:28
The Net Audio Sonance also uses that 1716 chip (I also have one of those on loan from a friend) , its pretty much maxed out but tbh I find any unit using this chip to have the typical digital signature and a really lousy midrange
Stick in the diy dac unit using the TDA1541A S2 and it knocks you onto your backside:lol:
Leo, Can you elaborate on the DIY DAC using TDA1541? Thanks, Phil.
I'm having problems with the PC so apologies for slow responses
The dac is Pedja's last diy design before he went commercial, you can see some pics of it on the diy section.
I added a few extra tweaks here and there on it, it was supplied as a bare pcb, I had to source the parts including the dac chip, I was lucky to find a TDA1541A S2 for a very good price, I've not seen any of these chips since, theres also a lot of fakes floating about
The AYAII and The Model he sells now is not the same as the one I use although I have heard the AYAII and thought it was a nice dac tbh
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