Is Streaming Doomed?

[Made in 1968]

Yeah & i set out using files instead of CD but ended up going back to CD dumping the files..

[nonuffin]

Yeah & i set out using files instead of CD but ended up going back to CD dumping the files..

Smart move.

Streaming, schmeaming, it will all end in tears. I can forsee the artistes getting fed up with getting pennies or less for their output while the streaming companies get richer, so I forsee a return to solid hold in yer hands kinds of media.

[Alex_UK]

Smart move.

Streaming, schmeaming, it will all end in tears. I can forsee the artistes getting fed up with getting pennies or less for their output while the streaming companies get richer, so I forsee a return to solid hold in yer hands kinds of media.

I don’t think you will ever get the genie back in the bottle now, even if you wanted to. When I look at my 3,500 odd CDs now in the garage, there are probably 2,000 that I only played once. Not sure how much profit would be made by the artist for a CD, but let’s say £1. So, to keep the maths simple, if I have an album I love with 10 tracks on it, and stream it that’s 1p per track, 10p for the whole album. There are many albums in my collection I must have played well over a hundred times, so on the streaming basis, the artist is much better off.

Streaming makes it much more democratic in my mind, if your music is great and people consume it you’ll make plenty, if it’s not, and people don’t, you get paid on a relative model. The world has moved on, and the general public (not us in a minority) are not going to move back to an outdated model in my humble opinion.

[Alex_UK]

By the way, I’m going to move the off topic conversation to a new thread rather than crapping on this for sale post. Stand by your beds. :)

[Made in 1968]

Way i see so called music these days is, it is us thta wants paying to listen to it

:lol:

[Alex_UK]

Way i see so called music these days is, it is us thta wants paying to listen to it

:lol:

Now that is definitely an interesting business model! :lol: perhaps justified in many cases!

[Made in 1968]

There u go £3.5K better off

[Sherwood]

Every generation or so there is an attempt by the music industry to persuade us to re-purchase music we already bought in a new format. The latest model allows us to "rent" at modest cost from a near unlimited library. Whilst vinyl may persist as a "niche" market, I cannot see CDs surviving in the longer term as they have neither the "tangibility" or "nostalgic" lure of the former.

Personally, I cannot understand the negative attitude by some to streaming, though those not attracted to the model can carry on buying CDs or vinyl ..... for now! I still have a large vinyl collection and a huge cd collection but have gone over almost completely to streaming (either online or my own cd rips). A Tidal subscription allows me to listen to a huge amount of new material that I would never hear without the "rental model".

[Leeken]

In tomorrow’s news Netflix is over and we’re all going back to Betamax!

[Ashmore]

Personally, I cannot understand the negative attitude by some to streaming, though those not attracted to the model can carry on buying CDs or vinyl ..... for now! I still have a large vinyl collection and a huge cd collection but have gone over almost completely to streaming (either online or my own cd rips). A Tidal subscription allows me to listen to a huge amount of new material that I would never hear without the "rental model".

Well said. Ditto

[ReggieB]

I think it's worth making a distinction between streaming from online services like Tidal and Spotify, and streaming from locally stored downloaded or ripped files. The two are different - particularly I think as to what people get from the service. The former does give someone access to a huge range of music at a decent quality. The later can sound excellent and give one the reassurance of ownership (not being tied to the vagaries of a service you have no control over).

I'm in the later camp. I like downloading and rip music and having my own store of music. However, I still have my CDs and LPs. For me it's just another format - one I like mainly because I can hear or read about a bit of music, try it on something like Youtube, and if I like it, be listening to it in high quality in minutes. All from the comfort of my study chair.

I still like CDs and LPs. The tactile nature of them is a real pleasure, but I agree that neither format is put into shadow by streamed music. They can all sound good, and in my system to my ears they all do.

[AJSki2fly]

Every generation or so there is an attempt by the music industry to persuade us to re-purchase music we already bought in a new format. The latest model allows us to "rent" at modest cost from a near unlimited library. Whilst vinyl may persist as a "niche" market, I cannot see CDs surviving in the longer term as they have neither the "tangibility" or "nostalgic" lure of the former.

Personally, I cannot understand the negative attitude by some to streaming, though those not attracted to the model can carry on buying CDs or vinyl ..... for now! I still have a large vinyl collection and a huge cd collection but have gone over almost completely to streaming (either online or my own cd rips). A Tidal subscription allows me to listen to a huge amount of new material that I would never hear without the "rental model".

Looking to the future when producing co2 as a result of producing energy (electricity) from whatever source, then electricity and its use may become very expensive and even elitist. Using a valuable power resources to run myriads of servers and storage devices around the world to support streaming of any sort may become too costly and even seen as a bad thing, people are already talking about digital carbon footprint. So back to home storage whether analogue or digital of some sort may be the future.

I did read somewhere that modern tech, mobile phones, computers, tablets, internet and networks was a vast energy consumer already and its may need to be focused on important stuff only in the future. That will be an interesting one to achieve.


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[Sherwood]

Looking to the future when producing co2 as a result of producing energy (electricity) from whatever source, then electricity and its use may become very expensive and even elitist. Using a valuable power resources to run myriads of servers and storage devices around the world to support streaming of any sort may become too costly and even seen as a bad thing, people are already talking about digital carbon footprint. So back to home storage whether analogue or digital of some sort may be the future.

I did read somewhere that modern tech, mobile phones, computers, tablets, internet and networks was a vast energy consumer already and its may need to be focused on important stuff only in the future. That will be an interesting one to achieve.


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Yes, servers do consume a lot of electricity but increasingly these will be powered by renewable sources. Iceland is developing a huge server industry based upon its abundant and largely "free" geothermal energy.

Contrast this with the financial and environmental cost of producing physical media such as vinyl and cds; the distribution costs of physical media; and the end of life disposal costs.

[struth]

The world is doomed anyway so lets partay:D

[Sherwood]

The world is doomed anyway so lets partay:D

Agreed. I feel great sympathy for the younger generation. What a world to be born into. We are running headlong to extinction.

[AJSki2fly]

Yes, servers do consume a lot of electricity but increasingly these will be powered by renewable sources. Iceland is developing a huge server industry based upon its abundant and largely "free" geothermal energy.

Contrast this with the financial and environmental cost of producing physical media such as vinyl and cds; the distribution costs of physical media; and the end of life disposal costs.

I agree but even even creating energy from neutral sources has a carbon footprint from building it to maintenance and in the long term replacing it, I am not saying it isn't better than other forms of energy generation, but it is not necessarily clear cut. Also how efficient the Green generated power (electricity) is used is pretty important as well. I believe a recent study at an American university worked out the total carbon footprint of building a Tesla, maintaining it for 10 years, running it for 100K miles and then scraping it, and compared that with an equivalent petrol driven car, sadly the petrol car had the lower carbon footprint. At present in the UK we are around 50% green electricity generated for our current needs, I am not sure how long the forecast is to get to 100% but it is certainly quite a few years into the future. If you add to that +30 million electric cars then I think the amount of daily required generated electricity required is massively increased, so it will be interesting how and where a country like the UK will being getting its Electric power to support its needs.

Also I have been told that to produce one litre of ethanol for bio-fuel use produces a bigger carbon footprint than producing the same in petrol, so this implies ethanol as a additive to replace petrol is not such a great idea, apart form the fact that large organisations are destroying/burning vast swaths of forests(the lungs of the Earth) and planting cereals to then produce bio-fuels, this all seems a bit cock-eyed to me.

Don't get me wrong I don't think fossil fuel burning is the way forward I just don't think the right solutions have been thought through and the total environmental impacts. It is interesting how certain other technologies have been rubbished or resisted by large corporations as they probably would impact control and profits long term.

[Sherwood]

I agree but even even creating energy from neutral sources has a carbon footprint from building it to maintenance and in the long term replacing it, I am not saying it isn't better than other forms of energy generation, but it is not necessarily clear cut. Also how efficient the Green generated power (electricity) is used is pretty important as well. I believe a recent study at an American university worked out the total carbon footprint of building a Tesla, maintaining it for 10 years, running it for 100K miles and then scraping it, and compared that with an equivalent petrol driven car, sadly the petrol car had the lower carbon footprint. At present in the UK we are around 50% green electricity generated for our current needs, I am not sure how long the forecast is to get to 100% but it is certainly quite a few years into the future. If you add to that +30 million electric cars then I think the amount of daily required generated electricity required is massively increased, so it will be interesting how and where a country like the UK will being getting its Electric power to support its needs.

Also I have been told that to produce one litre of ethanol for bio-fuel use produces a bigger carbon footprint than producing the same in petrol, so this implies ethanol as a additive to replace petrol is not such a great idea, apart form the fact that large organisations are destroying/burning vast swaths of forests(the lungs of the Earth) and planting cereals to then produce bio-fuels, this all seems a bit cock-eyed to me.

Don't get me wrong I don't think fossil fuel burning is the way forward I just don't think the right solutions have been thought through and the total environmental impacts. It is interesting how certain other technologies have been rubbished or resisted by large corporations as they probably would impact control and profits long term.

Renewable technology is improving continuously and will eventually displace fossil fuels (if we survive that long!). However, I don't think that that energy consumption is a major impediment to streaming, even now.

[nonuffin]

We will all be going back to wind up clockwork gramophones, you mark my words :lol:

[struth]

We will all be going back to wind up clockwork gramophones, you mark my words :lol:

Ive got 2 so am ok :ner:

[Macca]

I've got a guitar so can always make my own music if push comes to shove. I mean that's what they did in the olden days.

It just won't be very good.

Big problem facing streaming services is that they aren't making any profit. So something will have to change at some point.

[struth]

I've got a guitar so can always make my own music if push comes to shove. I mean that's what they did in the olden days.

It just won't be very good.

Big problem facing streaming services is that they aren't making any profit. So something will have to change at some point.

Hillybilly Macca,...frae Stoke:D

[AJSki2fly]

Reach for your banjo, yiha

[Alex_UK]

Big problem facing streaming services is that they aren't making any profit. So something will have to change at some point.

Looks like Spotify is getting there - two consecutive profitable quarters, apparently. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/spotify-profitable-how-happen-910456/

[Pharos]

I haven't committed to streaming yet, although in principle I regard it as the way forward.

My problem is the multiplicity of routes, and the apparent unreliability and incompatibility of so much both hard and software, that I am unable to resolve an approach which fulfils my aims.

I would pay someone o cut through the dross and give me the best solution; there always seems to be a problem or drawback with each.

[struth]

I think if your happy to use a pc/laptop as a core, then if your prepared to spend on it, Roon is no doubt the best solution as it can host Tidal or qobuz..... pop that therough whatever endpoints(dacs etc) and youve got a damn good sound that basically just works.
Needs a fairly good speed pc with memory and preferably an ssd to hold core program imo tho.

Must admit when ive got enough pennies i think I will buy it.. its damn good

[Jimbo]

I think if your happy to use a pc/laptop as a core, then if your prepared to spend on it, Roon is no doubt the best solution as it can host Tidal or qobuz..... pop that therough whatever endpoints(dacs etc) and youve got a damn good sound that basically just works.
Needs a fairly good speed pc with memory and preferably an ssd to hold core program imo tho.

Must admit when ive got enough pennies i think I will buy it.. its damn good

I know folk who have had ROON and could not wait to get rid of it after a short while.

[tapid]

I haven't committed to streaming yet, although in principle I regard it as the way forward.

My problem is the multiplicity of routes, and the apparent unreliability and incompatibility of so much both hard and software, that I am unable to resolve an approach which fulfils my aims.

I would pay someone o cut through the dross and give me the best solution; there always seems to be a problem or drawback with each.
Yup, just put a c d in or spin a record. Thats the way to do it. lol

[struth]

I know folk who have had ROON and could not wait to get rid of it after a short while.Any reason?

[Mr. C]

Streaming will evolve, however FBA is clearly a big step up from actually streaming makes CD's sound quite ordinary, however for the most part Cd's do sound a better than streaming if you have a respectable cd player imho.

[Jimbo]

Any reason?

No UPnp, connectivity problems, metadata issues and constant updating and manipulation of stored library.

[Jimbo]

Biggest issue I have with streaming it the majority of artists earn hardly any money at $0.008 per stream! Where as in the old days artists could make money selling LPs or Cds now everyone wants their music for nothing!!:steam:

[struth]

No UPnp, connectivity problems, metadata issues and constant updating and manipulation of stored library.Not noticed anything library wise so far. It connected to my rpi surprisingly without me doing anything. Just sees it as an endpoint. Not sure how it does it tho. I presumed it was upnp or the like.
Phone is fine after a sticky start re the ip's.
Connection to my other laptop is good too. Very quick.
If course its on a fairly recent bug update so it might not always been that way.

[Alex_UK]

Biggest issue I have with streaming it the majority of artists earn hardly any money at $0.008 per stream! Where as in the old days artists could make money selling LPs or Cds now everyone wants their music for nothing!!:steam:

I think it is actually less than that on Spotify, $0.00437 according to The Guardian. So Ed Sheehan has earned $8.74m from “Shape of You” from Spotify alone, and added to his Tidal income for that one song, who pay $0.0125 per stream, he’s doing ok.

I do take your point though, that less successful artists won’t be doing so well - but on the other hand, once a track is there, it will forever be a potential source of constant income. If an artist has 10 published tracks that get 10,000 plays a month average, they would be earning $4,370 a month. This is where I think the subscription model works as I said earlier, if I buy a CD and play it once the earnings for the artist are the same as for my favourites that have been played hundreds of times, so isn’t the new model fairer to all?

[Jimbo]

I think it is actually less than that on Spotify, $0.00437 according to The Guardian. So Ed Sheehan has earned $8.74m from “Shape of You” from Spotify alone, and added to his Tidal income for that one song, who pay $0.0125 per stream, he’s doing ok.

I do take your point though, that less successful artists won’t be doing so well - but on the other hand, once a track is there, it will forever be a potential source of constant income. If an artist has 10 published tracks that get 10,000 plays a month average, they would be earning $4,370 a month. This is where I think the subscription model works as I said earlier, if I buy a CD and play it once the earnings for the artist are the same as for my favourites that have been played hundreds of times, so isn’t the new model fairer to all?

At $0.004 per track x 10,000 x 10 = $400? You also picked Ed sheeran who is probably the most played artist out there and yes there are quite a few at the top, but there are many many more(the majority) of artists who don't earn anywhere near this!

Take a read of this.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/how-musicians-make-money-or-dont-at-all-in-2018-706745/

[Alex_UK]

That’ll teach me to try and do maths after half a bottle of wine!

[Jimbo]

That’ll teach me to try and do maths after half a bottle of wine!

:lol::cool:

[Ashmore]

Finish the bottle and we'll all be millionaires

[struth]

Ed sheeran.. Don't think I've heard any of his stuff. Maybe fortunate there

[Jimbo]

Ed sheeran.. Don't think I've heard any of his stuff. Maybe fortunate there

Hi is quite popular at the moment but not my cup of tea.

[griffo104]

Never see the point in going back to CD. I see nothing to be nostalgic about it. Crap plastic cases, crap little booklets and and shiny discs hidden in a drawer of a big overpriced metal box. At one point, yes, cd sounded better than streaming but with services offering higher resolution, broadband getting faster and dacs getting more popular (and cheaper if you want to look at china), then who really wants to go back to CD ????

I don't see anything from CD that I can't get from a good streaming service as well as access to a huge amount of music.

Vinyl is a bit different as that is a more physical, tactile and nostalgic format and turntables are things of beauty (imo of course).

[struth]

Vinyl is still, or would be my preferred method but it's files and streaming for me now.
No mobility isn't an issue now.

[YNWaN]

My personal opinion is that streaming (unlike CD) still has a strong future. However, at present, it is very much the poor cousin and both CD and vinyl are very obviously better.

[dave2010]

I don't see anything from CD that I can't get from a good streaming service as well as access to a huge amount of music.
Very slightly different, but essentially the same technology - tonight we tried to watch live TV (ITV) via broadband. For various reasons we do that quite often. We can't get good Freeview in this location, but we can get satellite TV, so sometimes we watch that instead, but mostly we have shifted to broadband - the so-called Negroponte shift.

Usually it works well enough, though sometimes there are bufferings issues and drop outs. Tonight we had one of the weirdest problems. We paused the stream during an advert break, but when we resumed the video and audio were totally unlinked. I don't mean slght - a small lip sync issue - I mean the audio didn't even seem to relate to the scenes being shown. We stopped the stream and tried to kickstart it again. I believe that streaminig audio could have similar problems on occasion - though many people will of course get reasonable quality if they live in an area with good broadband. Actually our broadband ought to be very good, as we're almost right on top of the local distribution point, but athough we can often get 60+mbps, we still do get buffering issues.

Compare that with owning CDs - of which I have many. Yes - it's a pain to have to go to get the boxes out of the room down the corridor, and to choose a CD, or one out of a large box of CDs, but once done almost all of them play well. The quality is mostly very good, and I'm afraid to say my choice is pretty huge. Also, I may have some CDs which are not on streaming services, though I agree that some streaming services have a huge choice. I'm not sure that all streaming services are prepared to keep a library of recordings going back 50 or more years, and there are pieces which are certainly worth hearing from long bygone eras.

An added complication is that if a streaming or download service fails, or merges with another company, the rules change, and customers may find that the service they thought they were getting "for ever" is now not what it was. This has happened already several times, and it is likely to continue to happen in the future.

[Pharos]

Yup, just put a c d in or spin a record. Thats the way to do it. lol

That is what I do, and I have only a few CDs, but they are of very high value - to me major works of art music because they were so much inspirational in my developmental years. Probably only 100 CDs at most, and they are reference for me.

[Pharos]

Ed sheeran.. Don't think I've heard any of his stuff. Maybe fortunate there

For the life of me I cannot see any merit in Sheeran's stuff, but he does have the persona of a person who is genuine, and genuinely in touch with his inner self. (albeit still in a nursery.)

[Pharos]

Never see the point in going back to CD. I see nothing to be nostalgic about it. Crap plastic cases, crap little booklets and and shiny discs hidden in a drawer of a big overpriced metal box. At one point, yes, cd sounded better than streaming but with services offering higher resolution, broadband getting faster and dacs getting more popular (and cheaper if you want to look at china), then who really wants to go back to CD ????

I don't see anything from CD that I can't get from a good streaming service as well as access to a huge amount of music.

Vinyl is a bit different as that is a more physical, tactile and nostalgic format and turntables are things of beauty (imo of course).

Yes the physicality is crap.

[Barry]

Very slightly different, but essentially the same technology - tonight we tried to watch live TV (ITV) via broadband. For various reasons we do that quite often. We can't get good Freeview in this location, but we can get satellite TV, so sometimes we watch that instead, but mostly we have shifted to broadband - the so-called Negroponte shift.

Usually it works well enough, though sometimes there are bufferings issues and drop outs. Tonight we had one of the weirdest problems. We paused the stream during an advert break, but when we resumed the video and audio were totally unlinked. I don't mean slght - a small lip sync issue - I mean the audio didn't even seem to relate to the scenes being shown. We stopped the stream and tried to kickstart it again. I believe that streaminig audio could have similar problems on occasion - though many people will of course get reasonable quality if they live in an area with good broadband. Actually our broadband ought to be very good, as we're almost right on top of the local distribution point, but athough we can often get 60+mbps, we still do get buffering issues.

Compare that with owning CDs - of which I have many. Yes - it's a pain to have to go to get the boxes out of the room down the corridor, and to choose a CD, or one out of a large box of CDs, but once done almost all of them play well. The quality is mostly very good, and I'm afraid to say my choice is pretty huge. Also, I may have some CDs which are not on streaming services, though I agree that some streaming services have a huge choice. I'm not sure that all streaming services are prepared to keep a library of recordings going back 50 or more years, and there are pieces which are certainly worth hearing from long bygone eras.

An added complication is that if a streaming or download service fails, or merges with another company, the rules change, and customers may find that the service they thought they were getting "for ever" is now not what it was. This has happened already several times, and it is likely to continue to happen in the future.

Good post Dave.

I have about 2,000 CDs (and about the same number of LPs) and yes, they do take up a lot of space - but they are mine, I own them and can play them as many times as I like, unlike streaming whereby you only have paid a licence to play but do not actually own a copy of the music.

It's probably a generational thing, but I like to own, rather than rent, the things I use - be it the TV, music or my car.

[Jimbo]

My personal opinion is that streaming (unlike CD) still has a strong future. However, at present, it is very much the poor cousin and both CD and vinyl are very obviously better.

With about 80% of music now consumed via streaming I think the future is already here mate.

[dave2010]

It's probably a generational thing, but I like to own, rather than rent, the things I use - be it the TV, music or my car.Plus if you have the CD you can (or could ...) play it in a car - if there's a CD player, which is getting rare these days, or rip it (which is technically lillegal in the UK) to a memory stick. OK - I know that some streaming services provide an "off-line" mode and that "everyone" uses a smartphone these days (I don't, but I have one, which I don't use) which they use to play music.

I used to copy CDs for use in my car - to keep the originals in good condition, but I'm happy to use the ones I buy from charity shops in cars. Sometimes I rip several to mp3 - so I can get about 5 CDs on one disc.

To be fair to younger people, a large collection takes up quite a lot of space - and many people don't have a lot of living space, or the time to listen either.

[Pharos]

To me corporations are already intruding and having too much control in our lives, and I want autonomy.

[Macca]

Plus if you have the CD you can (or could ...) play it in a car - if there's a CD player, which is getting rare these days, or rip it (which is technically lillegal in the UK) to a memory stick. OK - I know that some streaming services provide an "off-line" mode and that "everyone" uses a smartphone these days (I don't, but I have one, which I don't use) which they use to play music.

I used to copy CDs for use in my car - to keep the originals in good condition, but I'm happy to use the ones I buy from charity shops in cars. Sometimes I rip several to mp3 - so I can get about 5 CDs on one disc.

To be fair to younger people, a large collection takes up quite a lot of space - and many people don't have a lot of living space, or the time to listen either.

I think you would have to have thousands of CDs before the space they take up really became an issue, even if you live in a box room. A couple of hundred will fit in a small box that would slide under a bed, you could probably get ten such boxes under a single bed. People don't tend to want 'clutter' these days so I can understand that argument, but not the 'takes up too much space' one. On two occasions I've lived in rooms no larger than 10' by 7' and there was never a space issue with storing CDs and LPs, I also had big four way floortstanders in there too. No compromise!

I'd propose a hybrid solution whereby you own say your favourite one thousand albums on CD, then you have the versions you want of those albums with known provenance and for which access to that music can't be arbitrarily taken away from you or the recordings messed about with, and everything else you stream. For convenience you could copy the cds and stream them locally, but you always have the archive tucked away somewhere.

[struth]

got about a thousand cds at a guess. ive aleady boxed some as they were becoming unwieldy in livingroom. the box wasnt huge by any means but when filled it was damned heavy

[hornucopia]

Just checked. Have 9800 tracks on Lossless iTunes on HDD-or 2 iPods - (all from my own CDs). The actual CDs are 'hard copy' in store.Often feel I could exist quite happily on this (without further addition)
I occasionally use Spotify to check out a new name.

Betamax redux? I still have a Betamax; used to belong to Massive Attack, who used it for digital recording before actual digital players existed!

[mightymonoped]

Struggling to understand what the issue is here. No single source format covers all the options as far as I’m concerned, just find the one that suits you best and compromise on the rest.

I find that Tidal streaming covers most of my listening needs for the most part (and certainly beats the pants off the pretty decent CD transport/Dac I have). I also have a drive with ripped FLAC content which is also accessed alongside Tidal.

Having said that, Tidal doesn’t have all the content that Spotify has, nor does Spotify have some of the CD’s and LP’s that I have. To that end I still keep CD and Vinyl replay options to cover the legacy, but my streaming setup is still the main focus.

Storage of legacy CD’s is no big deal, just use 200+ type CD storage cases and keep the CD inserts and CDs, ditch the boxes.

I’m not going to hazard a guess at what the future holds for source formats, as frankly, I don’t think it warrants the angst or effort, will deal with it when I need too.


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[AJSki2fly]

Struggling to understand what the issue is here. No single source format covers all the options as far as I’m concerned, just find the one that suits you best and compromise on the rest.

......


I’m not going to hazard a guess at what the future holds for source formats, as frankly, I don’t think it warrants the angst or effort, will deal with it when I need too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the issue is whether Streaming across the internet will remain to be a viable audio service in the future.

My views are:

1. Yes, but probably at a not an insignificant cost to the end user, to support infrastructure, royalty payment and so on, and as we already know the higher the so called SQ the higher the fee will be. I suspect the £25-40 price model will soon be about as low as it will get. It will be commercially looked at from the perspective of an average punter previously buying 2-3 CD's a month, about 30-40 tracks at £1 each. I am just waiting for Spotify to close the free usage door, unless they can up advertising revenue, especially having captured lots of users already.

2. Streaming is unlikely to disappear as younger generations effectively brought into the concept with the advent of iTunes, Apple Music Match and access to the whole iTunes catalogue for a fee, and of course a lot use Spotify and/or Youtube for free or pay about £9 a month to Spotify for so called better SQ. I doubt many are too bothered about the SQ, more interested in listening on the go and the latest tunes, and creating playlists. This is a fact I work with them, and they consider me an old weirdo (I probably am) for listening to albums, and having CDs and LPs for a music collection. They actually think listening to music on a pair of £100-300 in EarPods or a pair of wireless speakers is great SQ. The fact that a lot of currently produced music is specifically mixed so that the dynamic range is lost to make it better to listen to on headphones is lost on them, its what they know and are used to. To be honest what I have is described is all they can afford and as far as they are concerned is VFM for them.

3. Streaming Providers will come and go, some will be sucked up by others, ultimately a few 2 or 3 will find the perfect business model, and appeal to the masses as well, much like FaceTime, Google, and Twitter have taken over the world.

I am sure there are other relevant points, but that's my main take on it.

[prestonchipfryer]

Streaming is a fantastic way of hearing new and well-loved music. Long may it continue. :)

[griffo104]

Very slightly different, but essentially the same technology - tonight we tried to watch live TV (ITV) via broadband. For various reasons we do that quite often. We can't get good Freeview in this location, but we can get satellite TV, so sometimes we watch that instead, but mostly we have shifted to broadband - the so-called Negroponte shift.

Usually it works well enough, though sometimes there are bufferings issues and drop outs. Tonight we had one of the weirdest problems. We paused the stream during an advert break, but when we resumed the video and audio were totally unlinked. I don't mean slght - a small lip sync issue - I mean the audio didn't even seem to relate to the scenes being shown. We stopped the stream and tried to kickstart it again. I believe that streaminig audio could have similar problems on occasion - though many people will of course get reasonable quality if they live in an area with good broadband. Actually our broadband ought to be very good, as we're almost right on top of the local distribution point, but athough we can often get 60+mbps, we still do get buffering issues.

Compare that with owning CDs - of which I have many. Yes - it's a pain to have to go to get the boxes out of the room down the corridor, and to choose a CD, or one out of a large box of CDs, but once done almost all of them play well. The quality is mostly very good, and I'm afraid to say my choice is pretty huge. Also, I may have some CDs which are not on streaming services, though I agree that some streaming services have a huge choice. I'm not sure that all streaming services are prepared to keep a library of recordings going back 50 or more years, and there are pieces which are certainly worth hearing from long bygone eras.

An added complication is that if a streaming or download service fails, or merges with another company, the rules change, and customers may find that the service they thought they were getting "for ever" is now not what it was. This has happened already several times, and it is likely to continue to happen in the future.

I agree with your point regarding the catalogue - I subscribe to Amazon HD and Google Play, between them they seem to cover most of the gaps in each other.

But then I have jazz and classical recordings that never saw the light of day on CD either, I think that will happen regardless of what format comes next.

I would also criticise every streaming service for poor UI and and ropey search engines. My CDs have all been put in to storage, and there will be some I can't get on a steaming service - Swamp Terrorists being one band I can't get but can get some tracks on youtube.

The availability and being able to spend an evening chilling looking for new music for outweighs the need to own a physical medium, especially one as horrible as CD.

A few years ago I never thought I would say that or be listening to music this way, but a bit like ebooks, I want to own the big reference books but I don't need to own a novel anymore, especially when I can carry 300 of them in my pocket.

There will always be the collector for whom the object is more important then the actual content it carries.

[Made in 1968]

Im getting the impression that people are mixing up Streaming & just playing files on your computer system.. Streaming is Doomed with me cos there are too many problems..I do still use Lossless files however i have yet to find a media player programme that is simple, gapless. I presently use Busybee which is ok but it wont access my files from outboard HDD or SD card, you have to load them into the playlist... I have had a major sort out & got shut of hundreds of CDs in the name of simplicity + less & less time on my hands.. The lossless music files are all from my own CD's, i refuse to source them from elsewhere..

I think this is pretty much the future for me. I bought another recod deck but i wont buy re issues nor pay for old records so im gonna cut that in the bud straight away.. I dont need a record player anyway other than a nostalgia illness i have..

[dave2010]

A few years ago I never thought I would say that or be listening to music this way, but a bit like ebooks, I want to own the big reference books but I don't need to own a novel anymore, especially when I can carry 300 of them in my pocket.

There will always be the collector for whom the object is more important then the actual content it carries.Don't many of us actually use several different ways to play music on our systems? There doesn't have to be just one way. There are of course costs of having more than one way - equipment costs, space taken up by kit, storage of the media, but some of us do that for two or more modes. Why?

It's a mixture of convenience, and desire for quality, and also perhaps fear that in some cases cherished recordings will become unavailable.

Many people don't like music sufficiently to be bothered, but that still leaves perhaps 1-5% of us who do care. People who go to live concerts - of whatever variety - pop festivals, jazz in pubs, folk music, classical concerts.

People who listen to recorded music will surely always try to balance up feasibilty and costs against the benefits, whatever the modes. Some people will always chase after the tingle factor - if it's there to be had, while others may be happy enough (or think they are) with relatively dull presentations. Some of the cons can be showstoppers for some - for example no gapless playback - a killer for people who listen to music with tracks which should flow seamlessly together. There are many factors, and no absolutely definitive "answer" which will suit everybody.

Perhaps it isn't a "good thing" that some of us try out different kit and ways of listening. We may contribute to the piles of "junk" which is amassed, and which will probably go to landfill when we die. Does it really matter? I'm not sure.

[griffo104]

Don't many of us actually use several different ways to play music on our systems? There doesn't have to be just one way. There are of course costs of having more than one way - equipment costs, space taken up by kit, storage of the media, but some of us do that for two or more modes. Why?

It's a mixture of convenience, and desire for quality, and also perhaps fear that in some cases cherished recordings will become unavailable.

Many people don't like music sufficiently to be bothered, but that still leaves perhaps 1-5% of us who do care. People who go to live concerts - of whatever variety - pop festivals, jazz in pubs, folk music, classical concerts.

People who listen to recorded music will surely always try to balance up feasibilty and costs against the benefits, whatever the modes. Some people will always chase after the tingle factor - if it's there to be had, while others may be happy enough (or think they are) with relatively dull presentations. Some of the cons can be showstoppers for some - for example no gapless playback - a killer for people who listen to music with tracks which should flow seamlessly together. There are many factors, and no absolutely definitive "answer" which will suit everybody.

Perhaps it isn't a "good thing" that some of us try out different kit and ways of listening. We may contribute to the piles of "junk" which is amassed, and which will probably go to landfill when we die. Does it really matter? I'm not sure.

I agree with a lot of what you write there. Qobuz in particular annoyed me with the lack of gapless playback - it does frustrate.

My hifi got put in to storage due to the emergence of dogs and grandchildren running around and not wanting my much loved Michel Orbe SE to be damaged.

Most of my listening now happens on headphones, when the wife wants to watch her soaps and medical programmes on tv and I want to relax with music and read a good book.

It's only recent;y I've returned to hifi forums having been away for a very long time and this is due to wanting to get a computer based system up and running. I can cast to my second system which is still out downstairs (Denon amp with Totem Dreamcatchers), I can cast to the Google nest and Echo Dot, but for me being a snobby audiophile, the last two simply aren't good enough but the wife and grandchildren love them, so now I have dacs, headphone amps and connect them up with interconnects that cost more than the chi-fi cost altogether,

I also listen to a huge range of music, mainly (very) heavy metal, industrial, punk, electronica, classical and jazz - all genres which struggle with getting albums on these streaming services but also difficult in actually buying some of these in physical media. I'm lucky that we still have a "proper" record shop here in Newport (if little else). You want to try and find a certain version of a classical recording on any of these streaming services - none of them are geared up to it.

I have 20 years of hifi up in the loft, which sadly, may well end up in landfill after all how much am I going to get for Audio Analogue Maestro CDP nowadays? and then weigh up the cost of sending a 20kg CDP through the post. I still have a my top end Denon multiformat DVD player (remember those?) and it's been even longer since I bought an SACD than a CD.

I now have my tingle factor back and it's in the discovery of new music at my fingertips and the fact I can still replay it at a very high level to cure my sonic needs.

I don't believe streaming is dead by a long way, my kids don't get CD so what will my grandkids make of it? will they get nostalgic for it when they are growing up with a huge library of music available by just talking to a speaker? I have a 1000 records and a decent deck still out of the loft in the hope one day my grandkids will ask me about them and take an interest. I doubt they will take any interest in CD though.

my hope is one day someone will do a Guttenberg Project for music and store these great recordings before we lose them and make them available to all.

[VanDerGraaf]

Not a bloody chance, sadly. The game has changed for the forseeable future.

[Made in 1968]

Gapless is the biggest biggest problem for me playing my Files back, a nightmare with Live albums as ou can imagine..

[struth]

Gapless is the biggest biggest problem for me playing my Files back, a nightmare with Live albums as ou can imagine..

is that gapless as in live concert. coz most albums have a gap between each track.

[Manicatel]

Can’t see streaming failing to be honest.
The vast majority of consumers under 30 or so demand instant access & mobility built into a phone & app controlled etc. It’s how they live their lives.
The notion of collecting music on a hard format, storing it somewhere, copying it to a computer & paying for every disc is totally alien to them.
OK vinyl has an attraction & is enjoying a purple patch but that is in addition to their music accessed via their phones.
I guess individual streaming services may come & go but streaming as a concept is here to stay for quite a while.
£10..........the price of one or two cd’s a month or unlimited access to an infinite library of music per month.

[Made in 1968]

is that gapless as in live concert. coz most albums have a gap between each track.

On a standard CD player the TOC will clock seperate tracks but play thru the concert flawless. These media players act like MP-3 where as they create an audiable gap.

[Made in 1968]

What im not understanding is why the industry are not making the effort to make everything abvailable as a lossless Download where you can legally pay for, instead we have shitty MP-3 available from various outlets. No way on earth would i pay for a lossy file.

[struth]

qobuz sells them, even if you dont have a current service. they can be downloaded and added to your files but can also be streamed via qobuz too

[Made in 1968]

grant im talking about everything that is on CD should be made available to buy on lossless if they want people to take it seriously. seems to me like the future is set for the young genaration that dont give a fuck about sound or where they get the music from..

[struth]

grant im talking about everything that is on CD should be made available to buy on lossless if they want people to take it seriously. seems to me like the future is set for the young genaration that dont give a fuck about sound or where they get the music from..

well, most of their content can be bought afaik. ive bought quite a lot over the piece. good downloads.

[Made in 1968]

22 Euro for download! Dont think so somehow..

[struth]

Average is a bit dearer than cd but usually not too much. Depends on the seller band and handling company. I get lots at £ 4..

[Pharos]

What im not understanding is why the industry are not making the effort to make everything abvailable as a lossless Download where you can legally pay for, instead we have shitty MP-3 available from various outlets. No way on earth would i pay for a lossy file.

It is just a symptom of a greater malaise in society - dumbed down.

[Pharos]

grant im talking about everything that is on CD should be made available to buy on lossless if they want people to take it seriously. seems to me like the future is set for the young genaration that dont give a fuck about sound or where they get the music from..

In their dumbed down experience, they have never experienced good sound, or for that matter good art.

[griffo104]

grant im talking about everything that is on CD should be made available to buy on lossless if they want people to take it seriously. seems to me like the future is set for the young genaration that dont give a fuck about sound or where they get the music from..

Slightly disagree here, Tidal and Qobuz offer lossless streaming and Amazon has now also recently offered a lossless service so actually the current trend is ditch MP3 and go lossless.

I'm listening to an album now on Amazon HD which according to my DAC is 16/44.1

I pay £20 for a family plan and I can download onto a portable device for playing offline.

One of the main benefits of streaming is for phone users, on a data plan do you really want to stream a full specced recording? You data plan isn't going to last very long of a full hi-res stream due to the size of the recording. On wifi at home you can then open it up.

[griffo104]

I'll also add that as a 50 year old I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of my contemporaries that care about sound quality, it's not just the youngsters.

[Made in 1968]

O i know this. My missus sits there listening to music on a mobile phone. I sit there fuming lol.. I do moan about all this & the way things are going but im really glad i have a short list of what i want & generally have most of what i want, im really glad im out of oit all.

[dave2010]

I'll also add that as a 50 year old I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of my contemporaries that care about sound quality, it's not just the youngsters.
Are any of them musical or musicians? I think that may make a difference. I am somewhat older than you and I can still tell the difference between grotty sound and something better, and I know which I prefer. I do go to quite a lot of live events.

I don’t know about the activities of younger people. Some may have damaged hearing due to listening to music too loud, while others may simply have become used to the sound of poor quality recordings. It is possible that some may have no idea what good quality systems or recordings sound like. If the only sounds people listen to are recordings they are unlikely to have a clue what good quality sound experiences are like.

[dave2010]

I'll also add that as a 50 year old I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of my contemporaries that care about sound quality, it's not just the youngsters.
Are any of them musical or musicians? I think that may make a difference. I am somewhat older than you and I can still tell the difference between grotty sound and something better, and I know which I prefer. I do go to quite a lot of live events.

I don’t know about the activities of younger people. Some may have damaged hearing due to listening to music too loud, while others may simply have become used to the sound of poor quality recordings. It is possible that some may have no idea what good quality systems or recordings sound like. If the only sounds people listen to are recordings they are unlikely to have a clue what good quality sound experiences are like.

[griffo104]

Are any of them musical or musicians? I think that may make a difference. I am somewhat older than you and I can still tell the difference between grotty sound and something better, and I know which I prefer. I do go to quite a lot of live events.

I don’t know about the activities of younger people. Some may have damaged hearing due to listening to music too loud, while others may simply have become used to the sound of poor quality recordings. It is possible that some may have no idea what good quality systems or recordings sound like. If the only sounds people listen to are recordings they are unlikely to have a clue what good quality sound experiences are like.

Yes a couple of musicians I know do indeed enjoy their sound quality and both enjoy mainly vinyl based systems.

From my youngsters I would say the ease of availability far outreaches how it sounds. My turntable always get appreciative nods from their friends but they really don't care about CD.

[gizze]

I have been streaming in lossless for 5 years now with Tidal.

I ditched physical media around 4 and a half years ago.

I use Volumio with Tidal, which is lossless and Qobuz which is lossless and hi res. Deciding whether I want to move to Qobuz from Tidal.

I mainly listen to classical, soundtracks and electronic mixsets and haven't had a problem with lossless since the early MP3 players from 10-15 years ago. I know some of the cheap 'streamers' have an issue, even things like the chromecast, as they load one track at a time, no doubt due to buffer size.

I am at the point where my font end is a Raspberry Pi and my Dac is a Khadas Tone Board, it sounds absolutely sublime. It cost me £120.


It will play music from any other device around the house too, but the reality is the streaming services sound better, so I don't bother anymore, in fact, since swapping over my system and room a few months back I haven't even bothered attaching my NAS drive.


I have discovered so much new music since using Tidal and soundcloud etc.
I used to buy maybe 4 albums a month, which is what? 45-50 a year. Cost me £50 a month or so. I would guess I would love 3 or 4 of those each year and play them a lot, the others would have a track or two I liked but rarely played because I couldn't be bothered to get the disc out for those couple of tracks.
I now have access to pretty much everything, I can put tracks I like into playlists and therefore I get to listen to artists that I would often neglect far more than I ever did with vinyl or CDs.
What I can say is this, the music I have in my collection is all music I love, and music that is on constant rotation, plus I am discovering more new music than ever.

Oh, and it costs me £20 a month for lossless, £25 for Hi Rez.

Volumio is £22 a year I think.

I liked Roon, a lot. I ran it for 2 years.
But Volumio does every thing I need for far less money.

[AJSki2fly]

Are any of them musical or musicians? I think that may make a difference. I am somewhat older than you and I can still tell the difference between grotty sound and something better, and I know which I prefer. I do go to quite a lot of live events.

I don’t know about the activities of younger people. Some may have damaged hearing due to listening to music too loud, while others may simply have become used to the sound of poor quality recordings. It is possible that some may have no idea what good quality systems or recordings sound like. If the only sounds people listen to are recordings they are unlikely to have a clue what good quality sound experiences are like.

Yes it is interesting if you get an earlier generation to listen to a reasonable system playing different media. I got this with my niece and nephew, 24 and 26 at the time. Both listen mainly on the go to a variety of genres using headphones from mobile phones, but they also listen using WiFi speakers, not great IMO.

I sat them down and I had selected 3 tracks, for each I had CD, Vinyl, streamed hi-res, and 320kbps MP3. I said we would play each version in no particular order and blind, and they should write what format they thought each was each was and mark their favourite from purely a SQ perspective. If they were not sure after going through all 3 we would repeat listening but again randomly blind. I went to great lengths before to equalise the volume when playing each track in whatever format, by measuring Spl and noting down volume setting for each. I did not want differences in volume affecting the listening experience.

In general the results were:-

They clearly identified each MP3, saying it sounded odd, primarily dull and/or boomy, their words not mine.

Only one track could they tell which was CD and which was Hi-Res, they both like them the sound quality of all 3 tracks.

The vinyl tracks were interesting, they did not hear the lead in or out of any tracks, for any media so it made it harder to identify a vinyl replay. They knew one was vinyl but was not sure about the two others initially. After the first listen to all 3 tracks, they both preferred the vinyl renditions saying it just sounded more natural and involving. After the second play of the 3 tracks randomly for all media they quickly identified the vinyl replay.

So what’s the point, they both enjoy music and listen a lot, they both said if they ever had the room and money then they would buy a reasonable hifi, with turntable and buy their favourite music on vinyl if available, and if not then Stream at hi-res when at home, and continue to listen at lower quality on the go. Interestingly they now comment occasionally to me about some new music releases sounding bad, and annoying to hear.

[Discopants]

I only had a few dozen cds and Im environmentally friendly, so when I got back into hifi at 47. Streaming was the obvious choice to invest in.

Im on spotify premium £10/month although I will step up to family for 15.

My other source is netflix / amazon prime and you tube via apple tv.

After paying careful attention to power conditioning, I’m using conventional Isotek and some esoteric tweaks. Ive also made efforts to control the room, vibrations of all system components and some rfi shielding.

I’m getting really really good SQ from the system for all sources. I recently added an audiophile switch to the system and that was the icing on the cake really pleasing improvement.


Streaming is very much capable of delivering truly great sound but its much trickier to implement than most people assume. As a medium its very much the digital future.


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[AJSki2fly]

I only had a few dozen cds and Im environmentally friendly, so when I got back into hifi at 47. Streaming was the obvious choice to invest in.
..........
Streaming is very much capable of delivering truly great sound but its much trickier to implement than most people assume. As a medium its very much the digital future.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry but for me digital whether CD or Streamed really does not deliver at the same level as analogue in terms of presence and dynamic presentation. I am someone who converted totally to CD for 25+years and has taken up streaming, but even so I only now use it for convenience listening, I Have reverted to analogue for my primary listening experience as it sounds more natural/real, at least to me anyway.

There are and have been many discussions on the topic but digitised music as it stands today does change the way it sounds, maybe it will improve over time, with more data and faster chips.

[Made in 1968]

I prefer Vinyl for 12" singles only.. Digital is not only convenient i just find it so much easier to source music i want in Digital. I have to admit that had not listen to vinyl for quite sometime the first play i did recognise a more expansive sound.. all the same, Digital will always be the primary source.. However i utterly refuse to stream music from the internet had one week of that to last me a lifetime..

[Discopants]

Sorry but for me digital whether CD or Streamed really does not deliver at the same level as analogue in terms of presence and dynamic presentation.

There are and have been many discussions on the topic but digitised music as it stands today does change the way it sounds, maybe it will improve over time, with more data and faster chips.

I didn’t say it was easy , but you can get great sound quality from 320kbps. There is plenty of data there, all you miss out on is 19khz + and thats no use to me personally nor many others.

I measured 80db of dynamic range (crudely with an app at my listening position). Listening to Mahler’s 2nd symphony the other day Wienna Philharmonica and Gilbert Kaplan. Volume set to -5dB from reference. Absolutely stunning, no distortion , no clipping incredible detail and tone, you can only get about 12dB of true dynamic range out of an LP.



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[Made in 1968]

Can i ask why do people entertain MP-3 when they can have WAV or FLAC! FLAC is free, are peeps so strapped for disc space?

[AJSki2fly]

I didn’t say it was easy , but you can get great sound quality from 320kbps. There is plenty of data there, all you miss out on is 19khz + and thats no use to me personally nor many others.

I measured 80db of dynamic range (crudely with an app at my listening position). Listening to Mahler’s 2nd symphony the other day Wienna Philharmonica and Gilbert Kaplan. Volume set to -5dB from reference. Absolutely stunning, no distortion , no clipping incredible detail and tone, you can only get about 12dB of true dynamic range out of an LP.



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Actually that your 12dB statement is not true, and you are ignoring some important facts have a read of these https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/does-vinyl-have-wider-dynamic-range-cds-heres-some-math

They explain much better than I.


Another point is that 320kbps digital files are lossy so you are definitely not hearing as it was originally. I have done several AXB comparisons of lossy to lossless files of the same material from the same master and can identify the lossy in the majority of cases. It is harder to hear the difference when the original already has high frequency noise present.


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[Discopants]

Can i ask why do people entertain MP-3 when they can have WAV or FLAC! FLAC is free, are peeps so strapped for disc space?

I have no disc space, I have no discs.

From what I have read once you get to 320kbps it gets very difficult for the vast majority of folks to hear the difference between 320kbps and redbook. There are a handful of people who can reliably pick out the differences everytime. I cant do it much more than sheer luck, i might get 6 out of 10 right

The difference between redbook and those hi rez sampling formats is almost impossible for anyone to hear a difference. I suspect some folks can (maybe some blind folks)

If you want to electronically digitise your CD collections then I can see having lossless files is the way to go, then you can truly convert to any and all existing and future formats.

I’m trying to keep my playback system as simple as possible (for now, thats not to say I wont try out something like an innuos zen challenge that at some point).




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[struth]

yeah id buy a couple of cheapish 500gb drives and use something like db, or jriver to put them on a drive in flac. then copy it over to the backup.. that way its all there and safe as it should be on a cd... no need to ever rip it again. odds on both drives going together are slim.
then you can convert and save over to another storage system in 320kb .. a flas drive is a cheap storage solution, and most cars take them and read mp3

also use flac over wav as it handles the metadata properly

[Made in 1968]

I beg to differ but i can hear a difference as well as all the issues i encountered.

[Discopants]

I beg to differ but i can hear a difference as well as all the issues i encountered.

Maybe you are one of the super sensitive hearers.


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[Made in 1968]

Well i do headphone listening mostly but i just can hear, i am very sensitive to tone & High frequency..

[Discopants]

Actually that your 12dB statement is not true, and you are ignoring some important facts have a read of these https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/does-vinyl-have-wider-dynamic-range-cds-heres-some-math

They explain much better than I.


Another point is that 320kbps digital files are lossy so you are definitely not hearing as it was originally. I have done several AXB comparisons of lossy to lossless files of the same material from the same master and can identify the lossy in the majority of cases. It is harder to hear the difference when the original already has high frequency noise present.


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Checked out the links , thanks, not sure where i got 12dB from but a bit more research looks like the dynamic range of an LP is about 60dB. You can definitely improve that with digital, even 320kbps max is about 90dB of dynamic range. Much of which will be dependant on the mastering in the first place.




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[bronzeage]

In answer to the original question - of course streaming is not doomed. Sound quality is not a factor for the vast majority, as long as it is good enough, those who want vinyl or anything else will continue to use, just as some people still buy laserdiscs. Maybe at some point in the future some new model will appear, who can predict the future?

[AJSki2fly]

Checked out the links , thanks, not sure where i got 12dB from but a bit more research looks like the dynamic range of an LP is about 60dB. You can definitely improve that with digital, even 320kbps max is about 90dB of dynamic range. Much of which will be dependant on the mastering in the first place.




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No read again everyone assumes it’s 60db bit actually you have to take low level noise floor into account of turntable and stylus on record if you take that out it is actually much better, and as it says you get a much better noise floor with a high end turntable,arm and stylus.

[Macca]

No read again everyone assumes it’s 60db bit actually you have to take low level noise floor into account of turntable and stylus on record if you take that out it is actually much better, and as it says you get a much better noise floor with a high end turntable,arm and stylus.

Except you don't, his comparison is badly flawed. It doesn't take mastering differences into account, he's just picking one (analogue) recording and claiming it is representative. The noise floor on the cd recording will be tape hiss from the recording process, this will swamp any inherent noise in the CD medium itself and will swamp at least some of the noise from the vinyl system, especially at higher frequencies.

He doesn't seem to appreciate the problems involved in measuring the true dynamic range of a vinyl record. (It will always show as artificially high). We already know that comparing the very best of both you will get a maximum of 70dB out of a vinyl, 90dB out of a CD. 70dB is plenty which is why no-one complains about the limited dynamic range of vinyl. 90dB is massively more range than will ever be required for home replay.


Added to which he says 'I much prefer listening to the LP over the CD on my system. The CD sounds dull, congested, muddy, and lacking in dynamics. If I push up the volume, the sound becomes noticeably harsh and artificial. '

That's a problem with his amplification, not the CD.

[Gazjam]

Happily enjoying streaming from Tidal, Qobuz and even Spotify 320kbs.
as good, just “different” from vinyl in my experience.

Can enjoy both.

[AJSki2fly]

Except you don't, his comparison is badly flawed. It doesn't take mastering differences into account, he's just picking one (analogue) recording and claiming it is representative. The noise floor on the cd recording will be tape hiss from the recording process, this will swamp any inherent noise in the CD medium itself and will swamp at least some of the noise from the vinyl system, especially at higher frequencies.

He doesn't seem to appreciate the problems involved in measuring the true dynamic range of a vinyl record. (It will always show as artificially high). We already know that comparing the very best of both you will get a maximum of 70dB out of a vinyl, 90dB out of a CD. 70dB is plenty which is why no-one complains about the limited dynamic range of vinyl. 90dB is massively more range than will ever be required for home replay.


Added to which he says 'I much prefer listening to the LP over the CD on my system. The CD sounds dull, congested, muddy, and lacking in dynamics. If I push up the volume, the sound becomes noticeably harsh and artificial. '

That's a problem with his amplification, not the CD.

Thanks for the clarity Martin, could not have put is better myself.

[Landloper]

To me corporations are already intruding and having too much control in our lives, and I want autonomy.

Agreed. Streaming vs. CD or vinyl is not just as issue over convenience and quality. Whie it is undoubtedly very convenient to be able to use streaming sites to find new composers and check out various versions of a piece, I am uncomfortable with the privacy that these companies walk away with. I can 'go private' and use track blockers &c, but these technicques are vrtually useless against fingerprinting tech. If i pay cash for a CD or an LP the seller can't access my details and online habits and sell them on to third parties. Fingerprinting is becoming more of a problem for me.