Mint vinyl that plays with surface noise

[Mikeandvan]

Why is it you buy some used vinyl and it looks practically mint, but plays with loads of surface noise? Really annoying, just got some original ECM stuff off ebay, and most of it is great but the odd one or two has significant surface noise and I cannot see why. These records were made around 1980.

[Shovel_Knight]

Defective vinyl? Something wrong with the chemical formula?

[Crackles]

Dirt that you can't see? Have you got a record cleaner?

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[Mikeandvan]

Dirt that you can't see? Have you got a record cleaner?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

no, may'be I should as most of my vinyl is bought second hand.

[mikeyb]

Might be well played and worn, can still look mint

[walpurgis]

Actually, I suspect there are many RCM owners who get really pissed off that their carefully cleaned records still pop and crackle, but not many will admit it.

There again, I own many records over forty years old that have never been near a cleaning machine and seem to play as well as new, with no particular surface noise problem.

Cartridge choice can play a part. Some are more forgiving than others when it comes to surface noise emphasis.

[martinswimmer]

It is possible that it's the dirt - you'll see the state of the stylus after playing.

I recently came across some really great records in a charity shop, but looked so bad that I purchased only 1 to try. It played ABSOLUTELY perfect. Went back and bought the rest and they were all great.

I also buy ECM label and can't say that I'm always impressed with the pressing, but usually treated well by owners.

[Audio Al]

Have a look here
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=record+grooves+under+microscope&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[Mikeandvan]

It is possible that it's the dirt - you'll see the state of the stylus after playing.

I recently came across some really great records in a charity shop, but looked so bad that I purchased only 1 to try. It played ABSOLUTELY perfect. Went back and bought the rest and they were all great.

I also buy ECM label and can't say that I'm always impressed with the pressing, but usually treated well by owners.

I thought the pressings were nice, most of the other ECM lps I got were fine, but this one looks mint, but seems to have some surface ghosting on it, so faint it hard to see. Damp perhaps?

[Mikeandvan]

Apart from that after buying records again off eBay after about 2 years I am dismayed at the gradings, I had to return almost half, waste of time. Strange thing is I got all these lovely nrmint ECM lps off one seller, then the next bunch he sends - Beatles and others are hideous.

[struth]

Can be various factors to blame. Sometimes tho it's just noisy vinyl.
Apart from that, static, dirt, cart type, cart alignment, groove damage, poor storage and scratching are the usual culprits.
Grading should be stated as play grades if it's very high(unless basically never played)

[martinswimmer]

Apart from that after buying records again off eBay after about 2 years I am dismayed at the gradings, I had to return almost half, waste of time. Strange thing is I got all these lovely nrmint ECM lps off one seller, then the next bunch he sends - Beatles and others are hideous.

It's such a thrill going after ECM records - you can find a single one somewhere, but the postage will kill you. As soon as the seller has 10+ - the bidding gets crazy because of the shipping discount :scratch:
Recently I picked a really cheap Steps Ahead double album on eBay. It had a lot of surface noise despite looked clean and shiny. I've been listening to it for a couple of weeks and the noise is much less of a problem now.
The worst thing - which I had with a batch of sealed classical boxsets is mould. I managed to "fix" that by scrubbing with Isopropyl alcohol. Probably stored in a very wet place and the humidity went through the cellophane?
I have never had a record-cleaning machine, maybe that would reduce the stylus cleaning intervals (after every side at the moment).

[Cas]

Actually, I suspect there are many RCM owners who get really pissed off that their carefully cleaned records still pop and crackle, but not many will admit it.

There again, I own many records over forty years old that have never been near a cleaning machine and seem to play as well as new, with no particular surface noise problem.

Cartridge choice can play a part. Some are more forgiving than others when it comes to surface noise emphasis.

I have always found that an elliptical stylus is more forgiving when it comes to surface noise.

[Stryder5]

You can get manual RCM's for less than £70, a must in my book, even new LP's I have found benefit from cleaning.

I had LP's that I had forgotten, they were in the loft and some had mould, cleaned up wonderfully.

Gary




It's such a thrill going after ECM records - you can find a single one somewhere, but the postage will kill you. As soon as the seller has 10+ - the bidding gets crazy because of the shipping discount :scratch:
Recently I picked a really cheap Steps Ahead double album on eBay. It had a lot of surface noise despite looked clean and shiny. I've been listening to it for a couple of weeks and the noise is much less of a problem now.
The worst thing - which I had with a batch of sealed classical boxsets is mould. I managed to "fix" that by scrubbing with Isopropyl alcohol. Probably stored in a very wet place and the humidity went through the cellophane?
I have never had a record-cleaning machine, maybe that would reduce the stylus cleaning intervals (after every side at the moment).

[Mike Reed]

You can get manual RCM's for less than £70, a must in my book, even new LP's I have found benefit from cleaning.

I had LP's that I had forgotten, they were in the loft and some had mould, cleaned up wonderfully.

Gary


I quite agree. It's a must have for any decent collection and new purchases. IPA mix is cheap, safe and effective. No static (ever?), kind to stylus, no need for frequent stylus cleaning and clearer dynamics where the recording allows. Obviously new Nagaoka type or poly-paper inners are de rigeur.

I don't like the small platter on some cheaper RCMs, as it's difficult to scrub, and some (Moth?) are bloody noisy, I believe. However, an RCM will not ameliorate damage or lousy vinyl, found too often. Mould is fine, though.

[Made in 1968]

Some people uses things like Methylated Spirits to clean records. :steam:

Buying 2nd hand record is an utter utter nightmare & a massive money gamble.. How people find it pleasarable is beyone me!

Not quite a bigger way of throwing you money away on new vinyl though.

:rolleyes:

[Mike Reed]

Some people uses things like Methylated Spirits to clean records. :steam:

Buying 2nd hand record is an utter utter nightmare & a massive money gamble.. How people find it pleasarable is beyone me!

Not quite a bigger way of throwing you money away on new vinyl though.

:rolleyes:


Not so; most of my 1250+ collection was used; many from charity shops. Most cleaned up nicely. The only exception is the classical stuff I bought donkey's years ago from shops, and they haven't fared well. Type of genre, many played a lot before RCM etc.

I've given up buying new, partly because I have everything I need and partly have been very disappointed by s.q. and/or vinyl cond. on re-mastered stuff. Exceptions have been the Leonard Cohen albums.

[martinswimmer]

Some people uses things like Methylated Spirits to clean records. :steam:

Buying 2nd hand record is an utter utter nightmare & a massive money gamble.. How people find it pleasarable is beyone me!
:rolleyes:

Honestly, for me buying new records is a massive gamble. I spend 20 pounds and pray. Most of the recent new purchases haven't been perfect. Most of my random ebay, charity shops purchases have been fantastic.
I actually can't remember when I last purchased a second-hand record that I'm not happy to keep. I admit that I have to clean the stylus after every side. Would love to try a record washer, but how would I explain that to my wife? I already have 6 turntables...

[struth]

Honestly, for me buying new records is a massive gamble. I spend 20 pounds and pray. Most of the recent new purchases haven't been perfect. Most of my random ebay, charity shops purchases have been fantastic.
I actually can't remember when I last purchased a second-hand record that I'm not happy to keep. I admit that I have to clean the stylus after every side. Would love to try a record washer, but how would I explain that to my wife? I already have 6 turntables...

sell a tt and replace with cleaner.. she probably wont notice til you switch on:D

[martinswimmer]

sell a tt and replace with cleaner.. she probably wont notice til you switch on:D

lol - joke aside - it sounds like a good idea! Is it messy and loud?
ooops - just forgot that I purchased that Lenco L70 that was recently advertised here and yet to be collected ....

[struth]

A moth for eg is noisy. It's a big hoover after all. It's not messy tho. I've never had a mess ever. I usually wear earphones or sound blocking buds when using if doing more than one.
Had mine 10years or so and its never blinked and still looks new

[AJSki2fly]

Why is it you buy some used vinyl and it looks practically mint, but plays with loads of surface noise? Really annoying, just got some original ECM stuff off ebay, and most of it is great but the odd one or two has significant surface noise and I cannot see why. These records were made around 1980.

Hi Mike

ECM records are rarely poor unless they have been played with a damaged stylus, I suspect the ones you had were probably dirty. I went through lots of experimentation around 2 years ago as I was buying and being given quite a lot of 2nd hand records. Initially I used a Knosti Disco Stat cleaner, but found this to be a bit hit and miss getting records clean.

So I read up a lot created a thread on here and asked questions, the end result is I made my own simple record cleaner from an old turntable, with electrics and arm removed, I manually spin the records when cleaning. I purchased a wet/dry vac for £40 and modified the corner head tool to create a sucker that goes across the record and sucks the liquid off the surface, it has velvet fixed to it to protect the vinyl. I then went through several weeks of experimentation using various cleaning fluids and making some, and I also found a process to follow written up by a chap who had gone through a similar adventure. The end result is that I can get most records to a very clean and none pop/crackle state, so as long as they are not damaged they will be good. Also just because a record has some small scuff marks on the surface this does not necessarily mean that they will affect the replay in any way. If the surface is scratched then it may cause noise.

I have found it is quite surprising how robust a vinyl is, quite recently I purchased a record which had been subjected to a lot of water and the sleeve and inner sleeve were effectively stuck to it. So for my own interest I soaked it in distilled water/isopropyl alcohol for and hour and then proceeded to peel the sleeve of, after several attempts which involved rubbing the surface with my gloved finger I had it all off, it did take off the labels as well. So I put the record through my cleaning process but did it 3 times and then popped it on the turntable and it played fine, much to my own surprise.

If you want me to explain how to make you own machine and the process let me know. Cheers Adrian

[Made in 1968]

Not so; most of my 1250+ collection was used; many from charity shops. Most cleaned up nicely. The only exception is the classical stuff I bought donkey's years ago from shops, and they haven't fared well. Type of genre, many played a lot before RCM etc.

I've given up buying new, partly because I have everything I need and partly have been very disappointed by s.q. and/or vinyl cond. on re-mastered stuff. Exceptions have been the Leonard Cohen albums.

How do you mean not so! Some people do use Meths & Meths destroys plastic. No matter how fantastic your record cleaner may be you will not get rid of that noise. I once went upto sheffield to buy a load of 1st edition albums at very good prices till i saw the Bottle of meths on the shelf with his record cleaning paraphernalia. That was that i went home empty handed.. The idiot could not understand what my problem was. Every single album that i have know was meths cleaned gave the very same sand paper crackles sound, but you never know this till you complain & ask.

As for new vinyl. How long they been making records now? Even so they have totally forgotten how to make one that is acceptable. Crap cover construction, In a lot of cases pathetic designed labels, Obviously no quality control in most cases & clicks & pops..

[Made in 1968]

I just started back up with a very small select list of LP's but i totally do not know how to attack it. New vinyl is an utter No No. Second hand vinyl is a frigging nightmare. I need mint Records/Mint Covers/1st issues. Mail order is a too big a risk due to the amount false gradings. Going out to a record shop is the only way i see but we only have three near us, they all have turntables to listen but getting what i want is a bit tricky.. Way i see it i might complete the list in about 20 years lol..

[YNWaN]

I buy a lot of new releases, almost entirely mail order, and rarely have an issue of any kind.

On the other hand, you can make a record ‘look’ like new by giving it a spray with Mr Sheen furniture polish and a quick wipe.

However, I have bought quite a lot of second hand vinyl and have rarely been disappointed.

[Made in 1968]

Hi Mark
Im not referring to Mail order with new records although that is a different story with private sellers of 2nd hand albums. Packing a record is an Art, a small Art but an art unless split through & dog eared corners is al ok.. Im not saying a lot use Meths but as you pointed out the quick wipe over to make them look new is a common thing, Meths, Surgical spirit, Furniture polish, Spray window cleaner you name it, the latter two can be cleaned off but the others cause damage..

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike

ECM records are rarely poor unless they have been played with a damaged stylus, I suspect the ones you had were probably dirty. I went through lots of experimentation around 2 years ago as I was buying and being given quite a lot of 2nd hand records. Initially I used a Knosti Disco Stat cleaner, but found this to be a bit hit and miss getting records clean.

So I read up a lot created a thread on here and asked questions, the end result is I made my own simple record cleaner from an old turntable, with electrics and arm removed, I manually spin the records when cleaning. I purchased a wet/dry vac for £40 and modified the corner head tool to create a sucker that goes across the record and sucks the liquid off the surface, it has velvet fixed to it to protect the vinyl. I then went through several weeks of experimentation using various cleaning fluids and making some, and I also found a process to follow written up by a chap who had gone through a similar adventure. The end result is that I can get most records to a very clean and none pop/crackle state, so as long as they are not damaged they will be good. Also just because a record has some small scuff marks on the surface this does not necessarily mean that they will affect the replay in any way. If the surface is scratched then it may cause noise.

I have found it is quite surprising how robust a vinyl is, quite recently I purchased a record which had been subjected to a lot of water and the sleeve and inner sleeve were effectively stuck to it. So for my own interest I soaked it in distilled water/isopropyl alcohol for and hour and then proceeded to peel the sleeve of, after several attempts which involved rubbing the surface with my gloved finger I had it all off, it did take off the labels as well. So I put the record through my cleaning process but did it 3 times and then popped it on the turntable and it played fine, much to my own surprise.

If you want me to explain how to make you own machine and the process let me know. Cheers Adrian

Thanks Adrian, think I'll just invest in a rcm, definitely sound worthed, seen as I buy 90% of my vinyl used.

[Made in 1968]

If you dont have many albums or dont buy many , plenty places have em & only charge about a squid per album tp clean..

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks Adrian, think I'll just invest in a rcm, definitely sound worthed, seen as I buy 90% of my vinyl used.

Hi Mike

Good idea, but from my experience and this article the only way to get it clean is with patience and following a process, whatever you RCM you have, my best friend has fount the same and he uses a proper RCM.

Have a good read of this Record Cleaning article (https://www.analogplanet.com/content/most-comprehensive-record-cleaning-article-ever-0)

My process is

First put on thin rubber gloves

Ensure three cleaning brushes are clean, I use cut down emulsion paint pads, only a £1 each and will make 3 brushes, the hairs will not shed, are very small and will get in the groove. Mark each one on the back ISO, H2O, L'Art with indelible pen

Use rubber mat on cleaning TT, one side for a cleaned record side to be put on and the other for the for an uncleaned side to be put on. I clean the rubber off with Isopropyl article after cleaning about 15 records.

1. Put record on cleaning unit, spin and remove loose dust with and old carbon record brush.

2. Spray onto record 1st clean fluid, I use small glass mist spray bottles purchased on eBay, Cleaning fluid is 75% distilled water, 25% Isopropyl Alcohol and 2.5ml of ILFORD ILFOTOL (in 500ml total mix)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINYL-RECORD-CLEANER-RECIPE-PLUS-ILFORD-ILFOTOL-WETTING-AGENT-5ML-ENOUGH-FOR-1L/293057585045?epid=2160693250&hash=item443b97df95:g:3toAAOSw8d5ZS-LT

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SHL-BRAND-ISOPROPANOL-Isopropyl-Alcohol/dp/B003D8QFR8/ref=sr_1_9?crid=3DL0XG5A719FC&keywords=isopropyl+alcohol+99.9&qid=1578744678&sprefix=isopropyl%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-9

Get Distilled water from you local garage, it may be called de-ionised water, if you want pure water you can get it but much more costly.

Mix in 250ml plastic bottles and store.

3. Spin record and apply ISO brush applying light pressure, spin for a least 10 revolutions.

4. Vacuum of cleaning fluid.

5. Apply L'Art Du Son mixture from spray bottle to record, use L'Art brush, spin 10 revolutions at least. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vinyl-Record-Cleaning-Fluid-Concentrate/dp/B007B1BLBI

Only mix up small volume at a time and keep in brown glass bottle as it has enzyme cleaner in it and is light reactive and will go off.

6. Vacuum of L'Art Du Son mixture cleaning fluid.

7. Spray Distilled Water onto record, and spin record at least 10 times using H2O brush applying light pressure.

8. Vacuum off H2O

9. Turn over rubber mat on cleaning unit to clean side

10. Turn record over to side 2 and repeat steps 1-8

11. Having cleaned both sides place record in rack and leave to air dry for at least 5 minutes, this will ensure the ant small remnant of water evaporates.

12. Place record in a new poly lined sleeve.


You could add an H2O rinse between 4 and 5, but I have found this unnecessary.

If you find a record still has the odd crackle and pop but the surface looks unblemished re-clean 1-2 times, its probably badly soiled from cigarettes or handling with greasing fingers. If after that it still is noisy then its been damaged with a bad stylus or played many times.

Have fun.

[Mike Reed]

How do you mean not so! Some people do use Meths & Meths destroys plastic. No matter how fantastic your record cleaner may be you will not get rid of that noise. I once went upto sheffield to buy a load of 1st edition albums at very good prices till i saw the Bottle of meths on the shelf with his record cleaning paraphernalia. That was that i went home empty handed.. The idiot could not understand what my problem was. Every single album that i have know was meths cleaned gave the very same sand paper crackles sound, but you never know this till you complain & ask.

As for new vinyl. How long they been making records now? Even so they have totally forgotten how to make one that is acceptable. Crap cover construction, In a lot of cases pathetic designed labels, Obviously no quality control in most cases & clicks & pops..

A case of misinterpretation here. I wasn't commenting on using meths as I've never encountered anybody using it. In fact, I can't understand any audio-savvy person contemplating meths when IPA is one of the more widely used cleaning fluids for records.

I was addressing your assertion that buying used records was a nightmare; the only nightmare nowadays is that it's nearly impossible to find anything but dross in what used to be reliable charity shops (now mostly re-fitted as gift shops, unfortunately).

DIY IPA mix of 4:1 or 5:1 (flexible) is likely to be the cheapest cleaning fluid, as proprietary ones (L'Art...) are much more expensive. This latter can develop growth over a few months if not suitably stored but IPA mix in the fridge lasts years, so can be made in bulk, saving money and time.

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike

Good idea, but from my experience and this article the only way to get it clean is with patience and following a process, whatever you RCM you have, my best friend has fount the same and he uses a proper RCM.


If you find a record still has the odd crackle and pop but the surface looks unblemished re-clean 1-2 times, its probably badly soiled from cigarettes or handling with greasing fingers. If after that it still is noisy then its been damaged with a bad stylus or played many times.

Have fun.
Thanks for this Adrian, luckily I don't have too many records that need cleaning! But have a lot of time on my hands at the minute, will make a start after I've fitted my new Roksan tonearm, things happen slowly in the mike house.