Digging deeper into speaker specs

[Octopoida42]

Hi Folks! Newbie here looking to learn a bit more about what can really be gleaned from certain speaker specs. Up front I will just say that I know you can only get so much from a spec sheet and won't really know until you actually hear the speaker in your own system. That said, there is definitely a use to narrowing the field of potential audition candidates via the specs, yes? We can only test so many speakers (reasonably) for any given purchase and if the specs don't help then I feel like I would more or less be choosing speakers at random to try out.

A couple examples of two similarly priced speakers:

Monitor Audio Silver 200
89 dB, 8 ohm, 38 Hz-35kHz, 1" tweeter, two 5.25" woofers, crossover at 700Hz and 2.9kHz

Tannoy Revolution XT 6f
90 dB, 8 ohm, 38 Hz-32kHz, 1" tweeter, two 6" woofers, crossover at 250Hz and 1.8kHz

Sensitivity and resistance are the easy ones. Assuming the room configuration and equipment are the same: I am more wondering about how much we can take away from the frequency range and woofer sizes to make any general statements about them. In theory, they can both produce the same low end frequency, but I imagine the size of the woofer will play a big role in the character of the bass? I don't know how to evaluate crossover points either, what do they actually mean in terms of what you hear? The Tannoy in this comparison is a slightly larger volume cabinet as well, but bigger doesn't always mean better.

Basically, how can we leverage the information we get on a spec sheet to make some sort of educated guess as to whether a speaker is worth giving a go or not?

[Firebottle]

Trust your ears.
Plus the room is going to be a considerable factor in the overall sound.

[fatmarley]

If you read Stereophile reviews you'll see that manufacturers quoted specs can be wildly different to the actual specs.

Big drivers done properly sound better to my ears, but with so many variables that affect the sound It's best to listen in your own room.

[walpurgis]

Basically, how can we leverage the information we get on a spec sheet to make some sort of educated guess as to whether a speaker is worth giving a go or not?

You can't.

Various manufacturers don't necessarily quote specs the same way in any case. For example, frequency response claims are worthless unless you know within what limits they were measured and at what levels and in what environment.

As Matt indicates, generally, bigger is better, but that depends on user requirements.

[YNWaN]

Andrew, the specs you quote do mean absolutely nothing. The quoted frequency response needs to state the -3dB point and the impedance needs to have a plot against frequency response. So, in conclusion, you can tell quite a lot from measurements but when they are reduced to such a level of shorthand they cease being of any use.

[Pharos]

Yes dB down specs are needed for there to be any meaning with F.R.

Bigger woofers can move more air, and I prefer them, but they go wrong at a lower top end frequency than smaller ones.

I would not use those specs as any real guide to one being any better than the other.

I would ask myself;
Do I like bigger speakers rather than smaller?
What do I prefer in the number of 'ways', two, two and a half, three, or maybe more. I prefer the presentation of two to greater.
Which types of tweeter and bass loading do I prefer?
The Xover is the last opportunity for a design tweek to try to get the best balance, and we really have to rely on the designers doing their work. properly.

[Made in 1968]

You are a consumer, leave any technical BS to the designer should be no worry to where for example the X Over crosses over . All i would really be interested in is the speakers efficiency. Lug holes are the greatest specs of all.

[Pharos]

Yes but as a consumer we all have to be very wary and analytical.

[Made in 1968]

We have to be very wary of whats written on a spec sheet too.

[AJSki2fly]

As others had said speaker specs, especially as quoted in the original post, do not really tell you much, where and how they were measured needs to be known.

I know only too well from my various mistakes pairing speakers with a room and amplifier is no easy task to get right. On paper two pairs of very similar speakers you would expect to perform very similarly if put in the same room and tried with the same equipment, but in my experience this is far from the truth of it. Box colouration, how each is ported, size and just how good the drivers are will all have big influences.

My advise is decide what sort of sound you like, detailed/clinical, up front, warm or laid back, decide whether you want floor standers, book shelf or stand mounted, and then go and listen with some of your favourite tracks. Listen to several speaker designs and makes that are suitable for your amplifier, and room size. Remember listening to them in a shop will not be that same as in your home, but you can probably aim to get down to 3 favourites from a sound quality point of view and what you like. Then get them to your home for a decent demo of several hours. Failing to do this and you may be faced with going through ownership of several speakers until you find the right one for you. Unfortunately what I did over many years.

Some rules of thumb points I have used or learnt over the years.

1. In a traditional speaker a big bass driver +10" seems to deliver a better bass than speakers with with multiple drivers to do the same, in my experience anyway.

2. The more drivers you have the greater possibility there is for problems, as the crossover circuit and cabinet needs to be very well designed to ensure a smooth crossover from bass to mid and mid to top end, without enhancing frequencies or causing drop outs.

3. In general I have found rear ported speakers to be a pain, of any sort, I have only had the luxury of a large lounge (28' by 18') for 3 years in my life and only then could I move some rear ported floor standers far enough out into the room to get rid of bass colouration.

4. The heavier the cabinet or the more rigid it is can result in less colouration to the sound and more accurate and musical it will tend to be.

5. I have found metal based and in some cases rigid plastic drivers can sound harsh to my ears, but not in all cases.

6. Think about speaker and tweeter height in relation to your ears when you get them home, if you are forced to have the tweeters firing a foot above or below your head then you will not get the best results sonically or open soundstage.

7. Try and get a reasonably efficient speaker for your amp to drive, the less efficient the speaker is then the better the amp will need to be to keep control of the drivers at reasonable volumes, if it can't cope you will get poorer SQ at higher listening levels.

8. More expensive does not necessarily mean the best sound, if it is big and blingy, even from a reputable manufacturer, this does not mean it will sound great.

9. Always if at all possible try at home with your system before for buy, or be able to return in a specified time if you are not happy and get your money back.

10. Also if you have a partner to consider in your choice, ensure that it meets with their aesthetic approval, failure to do so may result in changing speakers again to get approval for the boxes in the room, no matter how great they may sound. (I had to replace a largish pair of horn speakers for this very reason to get some peace)

I hope this helps in some simple way, I am sure that others will offer lots of other advice, technical or otherwise.

[Made in 1968]

8. can also mean too much of the money is NOT put not into the sound. This can work one way. someone more interested in how they look than sound which sadly is far too many people.. Me being one, but i dont buy modern stuff so can be let off on the Nostalgia trip. But im referring to Hi-Fi enthusiasts

If i were buying an expensive speaker, i would consider a brand that uses a reputable outsourced tweeter, not a ten bob chinese based jobbie. I personally stick to High efficiency, 2 Way if i can..

[Opti-cal]

Couldn't agree more with Adrian above. Well said.

For what its worth I've had speakers which claim 35Hz low end which get no where near and in contrast, speakers stated at 55Hz which went so much lower.

As stated its all about the right speakers in the right room with the right amp. Afraid there is no substitute for trial and error. Once you've been through it a few times and have some experience you can certainly make a more educated guess, but what works and why is sometimes just an enigma . . . .

I've spent the last few days (literally 4-6 hours every night) trying out some new speakers with 3 or 4 different amps. Dragging each 30KG unit around in a loft as they react differently to the amplifiers.

The effort is worth it though.

[Octopoida42]

Awesome stuff, thanks for all the input from everyone.

I tend to be a fairly analytical person and do tons of research on stuff before taking something home (or doing lots of internet ordering/returns) so I was hoping to be able to narrow the field a bit as my "local" shop is upwards of an hour and a half drive each way in traffic. Right now it sounds like I am going to have to stick to price bracket and sensitivity (using a tube amp) and what is available near me. On the upside, the guy I am working with at my shop seems to be actually helpful rather than just trying to sell me stuff.

Thanks again folks. TAOS is a great place to be!

[YNWaN]

As someone mentioned earlier, the magazine ‘Stereophile’ do detailed and worthwhile measurements. In contrast, few manufacturers provide any speciations of real value.

[anthonyTD]

Spec sheets, especialy Graphs showing impedance change with Frequency are probably the most useful info you can gain from the manufacturer, however, the info, and the affect the changes may have on an individual's system will depend greatly on what type of amplification is used with said speakers!
A...

[fatmarley]

May be worth looking at some of the more obscure manufacturers too. Kralk Audio make some interesting stuff.

[AJSki2fly]

Awesome stuff, thanks for all the input from everyone.

I tend to be a fairly analytical person and do tons of research on stuff before taking something home (or doing lots of internet ordering/returns) so I was hoping to be able to narrow the field a bit as my "local" shop is upwards of an hour and a half drive each way in traffic. Right now it sounds like I am going to have to stick to price bracket and sensitivity (using a tube amp) and what is available near me. On the upside, the guy I am working with at my shop seems to be actually helpful rather than just trying to sell me stuff.

Thanks again folks. TAOS is a great place to be!

What valve amp are you using?

What max size of speaker cabinet are you limited to?

What is the room size in feet?

Are there any speaker placement limitations?

Some of us on here can probably give you some good pointers, there are several well respected USA speaker manufacturers that build efficient units that work well with Valve amps.

[Lawrence001]

4. The heavier the cabinet or the more rigid it is can result in less colouration to the sound and more accurate and musical it will tend to be.

I think I agree with everything you said except your point that lack of colouration/rigid cabinet => musicality.

[hornucopia]

No 4 not absolute? My Ocellias are not the only ones where the cabinet 'lets go' of the energy-as you know, Adrian!

[walpurgis]

Yamaha employed the lightweight build, low energy storage principle in their Soava speakers. Very successfully by all accounts, though I haven't heard them myself.

[AJSki2fly]

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4. The heavier the cabinet or the more rigid it is can result in less colouration to the sound and more accurate and musical it will tend to be.

I think I agree with everything you said except your point that lack of colouration/rigid cabinet => musicality.

I don't think I made what I was trying to say very clear, it was meant to be a generalisation, not an absolute. In my experience a heavier and more rigid cabinet leads to a a better result overall, however I do recognise there are exceptions to this. What I was trying to get across was that a vibrating cabinet will colour the sound in some way, obviously if it is designed to do so then it may be part of the end result. I hope that makes some sense.

[Octopoida42]

What valve amp are you using?

What max size of speaker cabinet are you limited to?

What is the room size in feet?

Are there any speaker placement limitations?

Some of us on here can probably give you some good pointers, there are several well respected USA speaker manufacturers that build efficient units that work well with Valve amps.

The main listening space in my room is about 16x24ft with 8ft ceilings, it is a somewhat open floor plan apartment with carpeted floors. Speakers are going to be fairly close to the wall, probably max about 12-15" between back of speaker and wall. As for speaker size, I am less concerned about height than depth; none of the speakers in the price range I have been looking are more than about 42" tall, which is perfectly fine.

I am using a Primaluna tube amp (40wpc) and I recently heard some Monitor Audio Silver 300s with that amp at the dealer and loved the combo. They look great too. Only problem is they were a fair bit above what I wanted to spend. Considering the Silver 200s, looking at some NOS Silver 6s that are a good price, and am intrigued by the PSB Imagine X1T and X2T (though they might be too deep for my space) as well as the QA Concept 40. Was suggested to me to check out the Tannoy Revolution 6 as well. I was really interested in trying the ELAC Uni-FI UF5 but the are rather inefficient (85dB) and probably not a good match with the tubes.

One of the reasons I was curious to ask more about things like frequency response is that the Concept 40s are rated down to 55Hz but none of the reviews I see (professional or in various forums) have any bad things to say about the low end. Compared to the Silver 300s that I have heard which go to 32 Hz, supposedly. Just trying to suss things out and narrow the list with limited auditioning options. Im also just generally curious how this whole hobby works.

Generally I am interested in speakers that are neutral or leaning a little to the warm side. I compared some Klipsch to the Silver 300s and realized I hated the Klipsch sound, was shrill on the high end and really didn't agree with me.

[Pharos]

I came across a lot of M A s on ebay yesterday, some bronzes.

[Haselsh1]

Hey up Andrew, even if you shop demo you are going to get a different sound in your home. This really is a black art.

[AJSki2fly]

The main listening space in my room is about 16x24ft with 8ft ceilings, it is a somewhat open floor plan apartment with carpeted floors. Speakers are going to be fairly close to the wall, probably max about 12-15" between back of speaker and wall. As for speaker size, I am less concerned about height than depth; none of the speakers in the price range I have been looking are more than about 42" tall, which is perfectly fine.

I am using a Primaluna tube amp (40wpc) and I recently heard some Monitor Audio Silver 300s with that amp at the dealer and loved the combo. They look great too. Only problem is they were a fair bit above what I wanted to spend. Considering the Silver 200s, looking at some NOS Silver 6s that are a good price, and am intrigued by the PSB Imagine X1T and X2T (though they might be too deep for my space) as well as the QA Concept 40. Was suggested to me to check out the Tannoy Revolution 6 as well. I was really interested in trying the ELAC Uni-FI UF5 but the are rather inefficient (85dB) and probably not a good match with the tubes.

One of the reasons I was curious to ask more about things like frequency response is that the Concept 40s are rated down to 55Hz but none of the reviews I see (professional or in various forums) have any bad things to say about the low end. Compared to the Silver 300s that I have heard which go to 32 Hz, supposedly. Just trying to suss things out and narrow the list with limited auditioning options. Im also just generally curious how this whole hobby works.

Generally I am interested in speakers that are neutral or leaning a little to the warm side. I compared some Klipsch to the Silver 300s and realized I hated the Klipsch sound, was shrill on the high end and really didn't agree with me.

OK, so looking at what you are looking at your budget is up to £1.2K or $1.6K.

The MA Audio 300s are likely to struggle with the lower end in your room being 3054cu ft, based on some review comments. Also you say 12-15" max from rear walls, with rear ported speakers this is likely cause bass boom, certainly from my experience. I personally would go for forward or bottom ported, alternatively horn loaded (did you listen to Heritage Klipsch Heresy III, although these are out of your budget, a 2nd hand pair could be an option).

Based on your amp, room size and "leaning a little to the warm side" I would try and listen to some Tannoy Cheviots or Eatons, and some JBL L100's or similar JBL's, now all these new are well over your budget but having listened to them if you like any of them, which I would be surprised if you did not, then hunt a pair down second hand, you should be able to get a good pair for under $2K. You will get much better SQ for you bucks if you take this approach.

By the way 40wpc is more than enough, I presume you have the EVO 200 or 100, these are pretty good valve amps and should give you a good result with some decent speakers. Most people will rarely use more than 1 watt when listening at normal listening levels around 80dB, beyond that and it will all be getting pretty loud.

[fatmarley]

Hey up Andrew, even if you shop demo you are going to get a different sound in your home. This really is a black art.

Yep, found this out the hard way.

[Octopoida42]

Thanks AJ and Marley. One of the reasons I want to stick to working with the store I am currently working with is to have that option of returning if it doesnt work out in my space.

I will check out those other speakers. I have been thinking of trying to stick with front ported, didn't think as much about the bottom port. It will probably work out better.

I do have the Evo100 and it is a lovely amp. Im not worried about the power rating, but want to try and stick to more efficient speakers just in case.

[gizze]

I came across a lot of M A s on ebay yesterday, some bronzes.

I have had a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BR2 speakers sat in a cupboard for about a year or so.

I bought a Marantz PM7003 amp from someone to use with some P3 -ESRs that I wanted to use in the office, they were advertised with the amp and a CD7000 or something, I made an offer on the amp only and the seller said fine, and when I went and grabbed them he said you can have the cd player and the speakers anyway. OK cheers.
Gave CD player to someone and shoved the speakers in a cupboard.

Anyway, long story short, I pulled them out the other day as I was selling my Spendors and waiting for the new Spendors to arrive.
They are are seriously impressive.
They go down low, they are well balanced, they are refined and only start to loose it a bit in the upper mids when played pretty damned loud, but they sound seriously impressive.
I have had loads of speakers in that room over the last 3 or so years, many at 10x the price or more, since I moved away from the Meridian DSPs and these little MA BR2s that retailed at under £300 I think, are some of the best.

To be honest I am gutted I didn't try them sooner!

I would now like to hear their gold range with the ribbons.