View Full Version : The big vinyl push
Right, I could do with a little advice please!
Over the last couple of years I have built a new HiFi system. The Tannoy Cheviots and the Radford Revival STA25 are keepers as is the Thorens TD124. Unable to spend big on a preamp and phono I have made do with an Audiolab 8000c. For the outlay I can't complain about the Audiolab but it isn't the last word in reproduction. I recently acquiring a Phase Tech P3 Cartridge. I really like the Phase Tech but I also know it would sound much better through something other than the MC phono in the Audiolab. The Phase Tech's output is 0.27mV.
So...... I need to ditch the Audiolab but I'm not sure whether to go Valve MM phono and SUT or Valve MC phono. I know both routes are expensive and i would have to do it in stages. I am happy to ditch all other sources and go vinyl only so a line level pre would not be necessary. To get the best I can afford all components are likely to be secondhand. I have a dull Audionote IQ1 I can use whilst buying the components but it is worth mentioning that I am determined to use the MC Phase Tech. I bought a valve mm phono from an AOS forum member just last week to play about with. It cost very little but easily betters the Audiolab's internal phono, making the Audionote IQ1 slightly less mundane so I know there is plenty of capacity to make gains!
What would you consider the best route to audio nirvana, bearing in mind I can't blow multiple thousands in one go?
Any valve MC phonostage will most likely be a valve MM phonostage preceded by an SUT. This is because valves are generally too noisy to use in the first stage of an MC preamp.
Since you already have a valve MM phonostage, all you need is a suitable SUT. Given your Phase Tech cartridge outputs 0.27mV, all you need is an SUT with a turns ratio of 8 - 10x, of which there are plenty to choose from.
Thanks Barry, the mm phono will probably be used mainly by my dad as we bought it together. Not to say I cant use it now and again. What SUT would you recommend?
Anything by Lundhal, Cinemag, Haufe, Stevens & Billingham or Van der Veen having a turns ratio of 10:1 (20dB) ought to be suitable.
Some users have quite strict loyalties to particular manufacturers, so you may get some conflicting advice.
Thanks for the advice Barry, I will have a look at those brands. One thing that I am not entirely clear on is the step up ratio. I was under the impression that my .27mV 4ohm cartridge would be best matched with a 20x step up showing 5.2mV to the mm phono. I know I you are right but I'm not sure why. I should probably go and read the Rothwell page again!
Made in 1968
05-01-2020, 21:38
Thanks for the advice Barry, I will have a look at those brands. One thing that I am not entirely clear on is the step up ratio. I was under the impression that my .27mV 4ohm cartridge would be best matched with a 20x step up showing 5.2mV to the mm phono. I know I you are right but I'm not sure why. I should probably go and read the Rothwell page again!
I always recommend the vintage Mayware 'T24' but no one seems to try or mention. Don't have to worry about Impedance or anything it does it all for you. You can use it for both MM & MC's
If you are happy that 5.2mV will be well within the overload capability of the MM preamp then that's fine, but remember the 0.27mV cartridge output is quoted at a 'typical' playback velocity of 5cm/sec. Peak playback levels can easily be 10 - 50 times as high.
A 20:1 turns ratio will transform the nominal 47k input impedance of the MM preamp down to ~ 120 Ohm, which is perfect.
Crackles
05-01-2020, 21:58
Surprised you're so unimpressed with the Audionote cartridge given the price of them.
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I always recommend the vintage Mayware 'T24' but no one seems to try or mention. Don't have to worry about Impedance or anything it does it all for you. You can use it for both MM & MC's
Thanks, I'll investigate those
Made in 1968
05-01-2020, 22:24
Try get the one that does not have the captive RCA output lead
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=28173.45
Surprised you're so unimpressed with the Audionote cartridge given the price of them.
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It doesn't do much for me in this system to be honest. Lacks detail and is bland.
If you are happy that 5.2mV will be well within the overload capability of the MM preamp then that's fine, but remember the 0.27mV cartridge output is quoted at a 'typical' playback velocity of 5cm/sec. Peak playback levels can easily be 10 - 50 times as high.
A 20:1 turns ratio will transform the nominal 47k input impedance of the MM preamp down to ~ 120 Ohm, which is perfect.
Ok, perfect for the quoted output of .27 but likely not in reality when a x10 step up might be more appropriate. Tbh the mm phono is an unknown quantity being a DIY unit.
Some early MMs had an output of 4-5mV, and the Deccas have an output of up to 7mV. So I don't think you will have a problem - I was just being over cautious.
To get a seriously stonking MC pre for relatively little money, look no further than the Big Bottle phono (approx £650).
Barrington brought his tweaked mk1 to a couple of BOs last year, and on its 1st appearance it thrashed my MFA SUT feeding into the mm stage of my MasterSound PHL5 pre. On its 2nd visit it stood its ground against my Tron Seven mm/MFA SUT combo, with the BB giving more in the LF (weight, extension texture etc) whereas my rig was better on HF (air, space, detail) but the differences were nowhere near as great as the £4.3k rrp difference, go figure.
Have a word with Ollie (Bigman80) about your requirements, as I'm sure the new BB mk3 will be even better than Barringtons mk1.
To get a seriously stonking MC pre for relatively little money, look no further than the Big Bottle phono (approx £650).
Barrington brought his tweaked mk1 to a couple of BOs last year, and on its 1st appearance it thrashed my MFA SUT feeding into the mm stage of my MasterSound PHL5 pre. On its 2nd visit it stood its ground against my Tron Seven mm/MFA SUT combo, with the BB giving more in the LF (weight, extension texture etc) whereas my rig was better on HF (air, space, detail) but the differences were nowhere near as great as the £4.3k rrp difference, go figure.
Have a word with Ollie (Bigman80) about your requirements, as I'm sure the new BB mk3 will be even better than Barringtons mk1.I have Olis own BB, bought it from him a few ago, previously owned a Firebottle Vivant, and Trilogy 907.
Unless I ditch vinyl all together the BB isn't going anywhere. It combines the best of both of the stages I owned previously. Mind you it does have NOS Telefunken valves in it that are around £200 a pair which are a big improvement on the stock ones fitted, it did push the cost of the BB to nearly £900 but well worth it.
You might have to contact Oli via PinkFish Media Forum if you're interested in one as he's no longer on here.
To get a seriously stonking MC pre for relatively little money, look no further than the Big Bottle phono (approx £650).
Barrington brought his tweaked mk1 to a couple of BOs last year, and on its 1st appearance it thrashed my MFA SUT feeding into the mm stage of my MasterSound PHL5 pre. On its 2nd visit it stood its ground against my Tron Seven mm/MFA SUT combo, with the BB giving more in the LF (weight, extension texture etc) whereas my rig was better on HF (air, space, detail) but the differences were nowhere near as great as the £4.3k rrp difference, go figure.
Have a word with Ollie (Bigman80) about your requirements, as I'm sure the new BB mk3 will be even better than Barringtons mk1.
Mike and John, thanks for the recommendation. I will add the Big Bottle.mk3 to the list of possible. At the moment I am also considering a Tron Convergence MC and a Croft plus head amp or SUT. I dont think Ollie and I have spoken previously but I will.seek him out and se if a demo is possible.
Mike Reed
07-01-2020, 12:04
.... but remember the 0.27mV cartridge output is quoted at a 'typical' playback velocity of 5cm/sec.
Depends, as generally, Japanese coils have their outputs referenced to the American standard of 3.545 cms/sec rather than the European one of 5cms/sec. 0,27mV, if at the American standard, would equate to virtually 4 mV as far as I can see, which is pretty healthy for a l.o. m/coil
O.p. You may not feel the need for other sources at present, but it's always useful to have line inputs (if only for radio, TV, CDP or borrowing others' kit, etc.) I much prefer the all-in-one pre., rather than faff about with separate SUTs, I/Cs and potential hum prob's, and to that end I'd strongly suggest an E.A.R. pre. with built-in coil and mm stage. Superb dynamics and musicality, Cambridgeshire low-cost servicing, reliability and (I think) probable compatibility with the Radford which T. de P. may (?????) have had dealings with in his varied career.
His phono stages are revered among vinylistas. (and I am one with his 912). Nor would you lose out on resale if buying used as they don't hang around.
Depends, as generally, Japanese coils have their outputs referenced to the American standard of 3.545 cms/sec rather than the European one of 5cms/sec. 0,27mV, if at the American standard, would equate to virtually 4 mV as far as I can see, which is pretty healthy for a l.o. m/coil
O.p. You may not feel the need for other sources at present, but it's always useful to have line inputs (if only for radio, TV, CDP or borrowing others' kit, etc.) I much prefer the all-in-one pre., rather than faff about with separate SUTs, I/Cs and potential hum prob's, and to that end I'd strongly suggest an E.A.R. pre. with built-in coil and mm stage. Superb dynamics and musicality, Cambridgeshire low-cost servicing, reliability and (I think) probable compatibility with the Radford which T. de P. may (?????) have had dealings with in his varied career.
His phono stages are revered among vinylistas. (and I am one with his 912). Nor would you lose out on resale if buying used as they don't hang around.
I might be too impatient to save for an EAR pre.that has a mm/mc. I would love to hear one and I do accept.that a line level is useful to have. At.the moment I am leaning g towards a MC Tron Convergence.
walpurgis
07-01-2020, 20:24
I might be too impatient to save for an EAR pre.that has a mm/mc.
You may be doing yourself a favour. Whilst the 834P sounds OK on MM input, the built in SUT's for the MC side are not great.
You may be doing yourself a favour. Whilst the 834P sounds OK on MM input, the built in SUT's for the MC side are not great.
A friend said they were a little noisy. I haven't heard so cant say either way.
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