Moving coil experiment

[Caber10]

Hi, I am considering trying a moving coil cartridge to replace the current favourite a Stanton EEE. Neither of my set ups has an MC input one using a Quad 33 the other a Graham Slee phono stage. Should I be thinking about a high output cartridge like the Denon DL 110 or something else and SUT or MC phono stage? As this is to an extent an experiment I am looking for an “economic” first step. Any suggestions welcome!

AVO 111 [emoji2]


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[walpurgis]

Unfortunately, there is no really satisfactory cheap intro to MC cartridges. Low cost MC's tend to be nothing special and high output examples seem to offer little over a decent MM cart. Even worse is a cheap SUT, as that will always disappoint.

The DL-110 is lively, but a little unruly. I'd sooner go for a DL-103 with a good MC phono stage or SUT although the 103 lacks decent analysis at the top end. The DL-103R is more refined and worth the extra cost.

[paulf-2007]

A good mc phono stage will be very expensive or not very good. A decent step up is more affordable and probably easier to move on when the time comes. Klaus Hurler sells pretty good step ups on eBay and can match one to the cart of your choosing. I had one from him to suit a 103r,

[topoxforddoc]

If your SME 3009 Imp has a detachable head shell, the tonearm effective mass 9.5g. You would need a medium to high compliance cartridge to work well in it to minimise low freq resonance on warps. Some of the Audio Technica And older Ortofon MC carts light work in the SME. The Denons will have far too low compliance to work well.

[dave2010]

The DL-110 is lively, but a little unruly. I'd sooner go for a DL-103 with a good MC phono stage or SUT although the 103 lacks decent analysis at the top end. The DL-103R is more refined and worth the extra cost.DL103R - a tad under £300 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/DENON-DL-103R-Moving-Turntable-Cartridge/dp/B000OY3CFM?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-uk-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000OY3CF

What would you recommend for a matching step up transformer, or MC phono stage - with expected costs?

[AJSki2fly]

DL103R - a tad under £300 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/DENON-DL-103R-Moving-Turntable-Cartridge/dp/B000OY3CFM?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-uk-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000OY3CF

What would you recommend for a matching step up transformer, or MC phono stage - with expected costs?

You could try one of these, http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/moving_coil_step-up_transforme.html, occasionally they come up secondhand, they are generally very good. I use the MCX model into an LFD Phonostage, and it gives a very good result.

[mikeyb]

I'm about to advertise a boxed Denon 103R and an Aluminium Bodycap if that's of any interest.

117 hours use, kept a note of running time with a timer on my phone.

Let me know if interested and I'll sort out the advert.

[emoji4]

[Clive197]

Stick to Moving Magnate (MM) cartridge’s. Most will work very well with an SME and will have greater bang for your buck over a budget MC.
If you can find a low hrs Ortofon ML25 then you will be well on your way. If a little more money is available then Ortofon 2M Black would be my recommendation, with its Shibata stylus you will be very close to MC sound in the £300-600 price range.

[steve-z]

Have to disagree with the comment as to the Denon 110 being unruly, I had one for quite a while and thought it was a very good sounding and refined presentation, my only criticism was that it lacked a bit in the dynamics department with rock music, for other musical genres it was very good. As to low output MCs it isn’t necessary to pay a fortune to get good sound, I’ve been using an Audio Technica ATF7 for almost 2 years now and find it excellent, it will track anything at 2g downforce and to my mind it is vice free, lab tests show it has the mildest of lifts at hf amounting to 1-2db gradually rising above 8khz which a younger listener might be sensitive to but which I personally (at age 67) find beneficial.
It can be had at around the £200 mark at which price it’s a real bargain IMO, A friend of mine has the cheaper ATF2 (around £140) as well as an ATF7 and he says that there’s very little if anything in it for sound quality, only difference is a nude elliptical on the 7 and shank mounted on the 2. As to MC phono stages I use mine with a Cambridge CP2 which suits it well, tried the ATF7 with a Rega Fono MC which I borrowed for a few days and that sounded even better but the wallet wouldn’t run to it. Another AOS member recently bought the new ATOC9XEB which he’s finding excellent but it is a little more expensive.


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[martinswimmer]

MC can sound really great, but, in my experience, only as part of a perfectly matched system. I've accumulated quite a few relatively nice MC cartridges and enjoy them, but every time I go back to the Shure Ultra 500 (for example) - there doesn't seem to be anything lacking.

In my opinion, tonearm choice, turntable and the setup are way more important than a phono stage. A nice phono stage is an excellence pursuit and not key to enjoying the music.

I also think that the Denon 110 is a very fine cartridge.

[RobbieGong]

Stick to Moving Magnate (MM) cartridge’s. Most will work very well with an SME and will have greater bang for your buck over a budget MC.
If you can find a low hrs Ortofon ML25 then you will be well on your way. If a little more money is available then Ortofon 2M Black would be my recommendation, with its Shibata stylus you will be very close to MC sound in the £300-600 price range.

+1

The amount of times I've recommended, no highly recommended the 2MB, I must sound like a broke record, but hey ho ! I'll always share and spread the news :)

The 2MB opened my eyes to what can be achieved in hifi, up until that point i wasnt close, a properly set up 2M Black is a superb and classy mm, and yes it does have mc like traits, which reviews often express.

If I were you, rather than go through the hassle / conundrum of how to get the best out of an mc - which SUT ? / headamp ? and all the rest of it, I highly recommend you try and bag an Ortofon 2M Black.

IMO, Every mm user should experience an Ortofon 2M Black before even contemplating the mc route. I did and boy am I glad I did - an invaluable education in that respect, high end carts, what they bring to the table and so on.

Make no mistake the 2MB is a high end cart.

I remember when it launched (around 2011/12 ? Blimey cant believe it's been that long :eek: ), some said £460 was crazy money to spend at the time on an mm (nearer £500 these days).

Lets put it this way, I was so impressed with the 2MB that I then went on to the the other Ortofon Shibatas up the range which was Quintet Black and Cadenza Black.

The Cadenza was £1850 for a long time (I didnt pay anywhere near that as I bagged a used bargain) - Does the Cadenza Black sound £1350 'better' than the 2M Black mm ? No! and that's another thing the 2MB experience taught me, In hifi and mc's are no exception, there comes a point of quality where improvements become incremental / small in comparison to the spend / price hike for small level of said improvement, it's just how it is in this game.

Lastly, for now :D Everything is a compromise ie: no such thing as a free meal ticket. Been said numerous times here by me and others - The 2MB will require meticulous / accurate attention to setup AND in particular vta adjustment as the final sweet spot nailer, due to it's stylus profile/shape.

If you havnt got easy/smooth vta adjust then it'll be hard.

If it's set up sweet spot isnt right, then it wont sound great/right, you wont know what the fuss is about. Hit it and you'll be grinning from ear to ear, only wanting to play album after album after album ..... :)

[AJSki2fly]

I completely agree with Robbie, I have had a couple of good MM's in the past and when I went back to vinyl initially I had a Dual 504 with Ortofon OM5E MM and as most know they sounded pretty good for the cost. I then purchased a Pro-Ject Xperience II with Ortofon Rondo Blue MC and a Cambridge Azur 640P MC phono stage. There was an improvement basically a bit more detail and bass was improved.

But was it the cartridge or the better TT that gave most of the improvement, to be honest I cannot say for certain, but what I have subsequently tried is the OM5E in a better arm and on another TT and found it to perform surprisingly well, yes the Rondo Blue does give more detail, and a slightly better soundstage, but remember I am comparing £50 MM cartridge with a £600 MC cartridge, a differential factor of 12 times the cost, so is it 12 times better, straight answer NO, and NO again. The improvement was probably only in the order of 10-15%. Since then I have moved onto two other cartridges a Michell Cusis (Micro Benz Wood SL in another body) and currently a Micro Benz LP-S. Each were an improvement, the Cusis/Wood cost about twice the cost of the Rondo Blue, and this gave about 3-5% improvement. The LP-S is a pricey cartridge, I would say that the improvement in detail, sound stage, and realism is again only about 5% better than the Wood SL, but it costs 3 times the Wood SL. I have recently put the Rondo Blue onto an ebony head shell and fitted it to my Pro-Ject Signature 10, interestingly after spending sometime finding the VTA sweet spot it actually performs very well, so much so that I could sit an enjoy listening with it.

So in summary as Robbie points you can pay out lots of money and only get small improvements, IMO the key is to find the best performer for the money you can afford and which works well with your set up.

[Barry]

If your SME 3009 Imp has a detachable head shell, the tonearm effective mass 9.5g. You would need a medium to high compliance cartridge to work well in it to minimise low freq resonance on warps. Some of the Audio Technica And older Ortofon MC carts light work in the SME. The Denons will have far too low compliance to work well.

There is nothing to stop one either using a heavy headshell (such as one of the Fidelity Research designs), or keeping the SME S2 shell and adding mass to it via a lead shim or a brass weight. The only problem might be if the increased mass of the cartridge/headshell exceeds the counterbalance range of the SME 3009(improved) when fitted with the standard counterweight. Heavier counterweights were available, but are now difficult to source and will be expensive.

If you wish to use the Denon 103 MC cartridge, one of the best SUTs to use is the Haufe T-7883. Others recommend Denon's own AU320 SUT, as well as the Fidelity Research FRT3. https://theartofsound.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-55810.html

[struth]

You can add a magnetic weight to the counterweight to balance it out. I have done this for years. Weights or magnets the correct diameter are available. One of members gave me mine. It looks perfect as it's shiny like main weight.
The magnet does not affect the mc cartridge.

[mikeyb]

Just advertised one of my Denon 103Rs if your interested. [emoji6]

[Jac Hawk]

A good mc phono stage will be very expensive or not very good.


Bollocks!! i use a Firebottle OTP3 it cost me £150 2nd hand and i'm very happy with it, a good MC phono stage doesn't have to cost the earth, however it does need synergy with the cart you're parring it with.

[Chris]

FWIW My Esco Paratrace Troika has been sleeping in my odds and sods drawer ever since I retrieved my old A&RP77 from a similar fate and sent it off to get a Hyper Elliptical retip. In the same arm (Ittok LVIII) It is just more "real" than my Troika ever sounded to me into my souped up Purseound P10 valve phono. Please note I have never heard an original new Troika but considering people used to say, when it was the Linn tops, it was a gutsy, full-bodied sound then my A&RP77 sounds just that so I must have been doing something wrong through my highly tuned Hagerman/Salas Piccolo step-up.
Moral of this boring tale : Don´t write off MMs as inferior - it just ain´t so.

[Mike Reed]

If your SME 3009 Imp has a detachable head shell, the tonearm effective mass 9.5g. You would need a medium to high compliance cartridge to work well in it to minimise low freq resonance on warps. Some of the Audio Technica And older Ortofon MC carts light work in the SME. The Denons will have far too low compliance to work well.

This. I don't offhand know of any m/coils to match the compliance of magnets, though having used a K Black and Urushi in my SME Five, I can attest to a decent, if not potentially maximising s.q. (later realised in 12" heavier mass arms). The Hana, by all accounts, is highly popular at that lower end, but again, unless you're going to reasonably match the arm (without add-ons) and phono stage, stick to magnets.

I have an Ortofon VMS20E mk. 2 on my 14g (ish) 12" unipivot and I and others are amazed when I compare it to my Trans. Proteus on 12" gimbal. There really shouldn't be that small an increment considering the incompatibility of my pairing and the cost difference. I never play it, though, so that extra involvement and transparency of the Proteus is the draw every time.

There are quite a few good m.magnets around; don't conflate the different demands and properties of the two cart. formats.

[Doctor Fuse]

There are decent, very affordable head amps, like my Harmonious Audio (yikes, don't judge it on the embarrassing name) MC head amp (MCA-1). Very easy way to get into MC carts. Provided you are happy with your Graham Slee.

I used it in my bedroom system, with a Thorens TD160, Benz Micro MC cart, and NAD 3020, but am now enjoying a vintage Empire 2000E. I'd sell it for cheap.

[Doctor Fuse]

There are decent, very affordable head amps, like my Harmonious Audio (yikes, don't judge it on the embarrassing name) MC head amp (MCA-1). Very easy way to get into MC carts. Provided you are happy with your Graham Slee.

I used it in my bedroom system, with a Thorens TD160, Benz Micro MC cart, and NAD 3020, but am now enjoying a vintage Empire 2000E. Probably sell it for cheap, now that it's sitting idle (as good as it is, it's no comparison to my Benz Micro PP-1 MC preamp).

[Doctor Fuse]

There are decent, very affordable head amps, like my Harmonious Audio (yikes, don't judge it on the embarrassing name) MC head amp (MCA-1). Very easy way to get into MC carts. Provided you are happy with your Graham Slee.

I used it in my bedroom system, with a Thorens TD160, Benz Micro MC cart, and NAD 3020, but am now enjoying a vintage Empire 2000E. I'll probably sell it for cheap, now that it's sitting idle (as good as it is, it's no comparison to my Benz Micro PP-1 MC preamp).

[Doctor Fuse]

I just traded a Harmonious Audio LOMC head amp and Sony XL-MC1 cartridge for a VPI power line conditioner.

The Harmonious Audio head amp is cheap, but works very well. It is butt ugly, though. Not something you want to proudly display.

Performance was very good. Totally dual mono, powered by two 9V batteries, one per channel, so dead quiet. Batteries didn't last the year like they say, but I was using dollar store ones, so there you go. Frequency response something like 10-100kHz, which I appreciate.

That would be my recommendation for starting out in LOMC. And go LOMC, there are less compromises than a HOMC.

Other similarly priced cheap units, like a Project Phonobox II and a vintage Rotel RX-855 receiver, were both hissy when using the MC head amp section. The HA unit blows them away.