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magiccarpetride
15-06-2010, 19:02
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I wasn't able to find any section dedicated to speakers on the art of sound. Correct? If yes, why don't we have a play pen/sandbox where we can exchange rapid fire lines/witticisms/recommendations/insults about our favorite speakers?

Beechwoods
15-06-2010, 19:06
There's no specific speaker forum Alex - but feel free to have any discussions about speak's right here in Blank Canvas :) The forum 'rooms' are intentionally pretty broad in their outlook so people don't get too tied up thinking in silo's - it's all about the whole!

Marco
15-06-2010, 19:14
Hi Alex,

Thanks for your feedback.

The key is in the description written under the Blank Canvas heading:


General hi-fi discussion. Anything not covered in the categories below goes here.


"Here" meaning in Blank Canvas. As speakers are not covered in any of the other room descriptions below Blank Canvas, then the above should be self-explanatory ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-06-2010, 20:52
It is deliberate. We wanted people to focus more on source and control components with the speakers acting as part of a system whole.

magiccarpetride
15-06-2010, 21:18
It is deliberate. We wanted people to focus more on source and control components with the speakers acting as part of a system whole.

Gotcha! thanks.

Stratmangler
15-06-2010, 22:08
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I wasn't able to find any section dedicated to speakers on the art of sound. Correct? If yes, why don't we have a play pen/sandbox where we can exchange rapid fire lines/witticisms/recommendations/insults about our favorite speakers?

Well I was wondering when you were going to get some speakers with decent drive units;)








:sofa:







:ner:

The Vinyl Adventure
15-06-2010, 22:16
It is deliberate. We wanted people to focus more on source and control components with the speakers acting as part of a system whole.

Why is that then?
Speakers in combination with the room they are in seem to me to be the biggest variable...
Moving my room around or swaping speakers has a much greater effect than swaping my valve amp for this tripath I have been playing with lately ...
So why the focus on source and amps? ... Just interested like :)

Marco
15-06-2010, 23:02
Hamish, it's because people tend to focus sometimes too much on what their speakers are doing, and not enough on what's happening upstream.

Yes I agree that rearranging the layout of the equipment in your room or swapping speakers will have a more profound overall effect on the sound than swapping your valve amp, but only in terms of certain aspects of your system's presentation.

The source and control components, however, are where the essence of the music is derived, so nothing lost there can ever be 'retrieved' downstream, no matter how good the speaker/room interaction is :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-06-2010, 23:30
We have separate sections for digital sources, analogue sources and ancilliaries.

Amps, speakers and how they interact with each other and the room go into Blank Canvass. :)

goraman
16-06-2010, 05:35
Why is that then?
Speakers in combination with the room they are in seem to me to be the biggest variable...
Moving my room around or swaping speakers has a much greater effect than swaping my valve amp for this tripath I have been playing with lately ...
So why the focus on source and amps? ... Just interested like :)

Hammish,think of your whole audio system as a rocket leaveing the Earth for the Moon.If the Trajectory of the rocket becomes 5% off course near the very end of it's journey you will still land on the moon but you might not land in the exact spot you set your course for.
But if the trajectory is 5% off from the launch pad you will be lost in space.
If the source sucks how can amplifying a bad signal even with the best amp make it better? No, it can't.The speakers can't make it better and even in a great room it will still sound like crap.The further you go down the path the bigger the problem becomes.

Start with a great source and then get a better amp later better speakers.
Most people build there audio systum backwards but I was shown early on the mistakes in that approch.

The Vinyl Adventure
16-06-2010, 08:10
I'm with ya... Makes sence!
I have always worked on a source first principle myself ... It's always seemed obvious that even with the best speakers and amps in the world if you play you 128kb mp3 ... ... Or dab radio ... ... through it you shooting you self in the foot! Bit when i have said "source first" before people have said it's a daft aproach and that i should concentrate on the system as a whole!
I guess your saying "concentrate on the system as a whole, but concentrate on on it from the bottom up..."
pretty obvious when you think about it I supose ....
As you were... :)

Steve Toy
16-06-2010, 08:39
Yep the holistic approch from the bottom up would be about right.

I'm off to Montpellier next week and there is department store over there called FNAC that sells some really nice speakers upto around the 2k mark. Unfortunately they hook them up to budget components using freebie interconnects, well I doubt much has changed since 2003 when I was last there.

If I recall thay had the likes of B&W, Focal, Triangle and Cabasse. Great speakers! I may pop in and see if I gan get a shop assistant to quote me some frequency response and sensitivity measurements....

Perhaps we could have a speaker room. We could call it La FNAC! :lol:

Not wishing to be derogatory about that department store, it's a great place to buy CDs. I usually found stuff in there (pre-Amazon days) that I'd been hunting for to no avail elsewhere.

Labarum
16-06-2010, 14:06
If the source sucks how can amplifying a bad signal even with the best amp make it better? No, it can't.The speakers can't make it better and even in a great room it will still sound like crap.The further you go down the path the bigger the problem becomes.

Start with a great source and then get a better amp later better speakers.
Most people build there audio systum backwards but I was shown early on the mistakes in that approch.


Ah yes, the "rubbish in, rubbish out" approach.

In my youth (he says stroking his white beard) conventional wisdom said the greatest problems were with the transducers - microphones and phono cartridges at one end and loudspeakers at the other. For playback systems that meant turntable/arm/cartridge and speakers. The amplifier was benign in comparison with the errors introduced by the mechanical transducers.

Enter digital sources and the problems of a front end mechanical transducer in the playback system disappeared. A digital source is now so good as is the following electronics that even ordinary production electronics will feed a decent signal to a loudspeaker. That is where the big gains are to be had by upgrading - put the cash in the only mechanical transducer in the home - the speaker.

Abandon all the compromises of a mechanical transducer at the front end and the signal is pure and undefiled all the way to the speaker which is where the problems are, and where the resources should be committed.

A decent digital source solves the "rubbish in" problem immediately.

Now I know many will disagree - but that's life.

Marco
16-06-2010, 14:11
Hi Brian,


Enter digital sources and the problems of a front end mechanical transducer in the playback system disappeared. A digital source is now so good as is the following electronics that even ordinary production electronics will feed a decent signal to a loudspeaker.


Meh!! If only things were so simple....


A decent digital source solves the "rubbish in" problem immediately.


[Double] meh!!!


Now I know many will disagree - but that's life.


<Cough!> Indeed. I don't even know where to start!! :lol:

I'll educate you in the errors of your ways once I've finished watching Spain vs. Switzerland in the World Cup! ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
16-06-2010, 16:03
I think it's the perfect sound for ever argument succeeded by the all cheap modern digital sources are good argument.

Actual experience (as opposed to idle theory) begs to differ. Digital transports vary in performance as does transfer from other forms of digital storage. Then there is the quality of the DAC and its power supplies and how well everything is isolated from mechanical vibration (and how well internal vibration is grounded in the case of moving components like CD or DVD transports).

Then you've got the preamp - a lot of info and dynamics can be lost there not to mention through cabling and that's before we even reach power amplification let alone the transducers at the back end.

Labarum
16-06-2010, 16:22
I think it's the perfect sound for ever argument succeeded by the all cheap modern digital sources are good argument.

I have read the above words five or six times, Steve, but your precise meaning eludes me. Please elucidate.

Joe
16-06-2010, 18:25
All this 'source first' stuff is a bit daft, really. Sticking mediocre speakers in front of a good source and amplification is just as useless as sticking good speakers in front of a mediocre source and amplification. In both cases the system will only be as good as its weakest link.

Speakers are the hardest part of a system to get right, IMO, mainly because of the vagaries of speaker/room interaction, which is why I've often preferred listening via headphones if the room is less than ideal.

Steve Toy
16-06-2010, 19:04
In the Eighties CD was almost the panacea and in their marketing Phiips stated it was "perfect sound forever."

It became an accepted truism from the late Eighties through the Nineties and well inot the new millenium that CD was far from perfect although the implementation of this imperfect tecchnology was improving but really good, musical and natural sounding CD players were rather expensive. They were certainly no cheaper than decent turntables.

Then in recent years the "perfect sound forever" mantra was reborn on the more objectivist audio forums on the purely theoretical basis that somehow the technology developed to make CD work properly had somehow trickled down to the budget end of the market.

It hadn't for the simple reason that it was old technology that was making digital sound pleasing to the ear in the way that power supplies were implemented and these have never been cheap and never will be unless a way is found to manufacture low-cost yet stiff, stable and quiet switch-mode power supplies. This hasn't happened yet.

Output stages are also a major challenge for designers of DACs.

The chips themselves are only a small part of the story.

Joe, it's a presentation versus communication thing. To my ears a system with good amp/speaker room interaction that sounds good but coveys the musical message in an obviously flawed fashion would do my head in for serious listening. Also, bass boom for example is more often a timing glitch at source than a speaker/room issue.

Joe
16-06-2010, 21:12
Joe, it's a presentation versus communication thing. To my ears a system with good amp/speaker room interaction that sounds good but coveys the musical message in an obviously flawed fashion would do my head in for serious listening. Also, bass boom for example is more often a timing glitch at source than a speaker/room issue.

I wouldn't want to listen to anything 'obviously flawed' either, Steve, but what I'm saying is that the flaw is just as likely to be in the speaker as it is in the source or amplification, so there's no point compromising on any part of the listening chain because it will compromise the whole system.

Marco
16-06-2010, 21:14
Joe, it's a presentation versus communication thing.


Spot on; that's it in a nutshell :)

I'd suggest that some people digest that one slowly.

In my experience, people tend to place too much importance on the former, and not enough on the latter when building a system (just read the type of adjectives used when folk are describing what their system priorities are), often to the detriment of their musical enjoyment, which manifests itself in the chagrin so often expressed on audio forums.


To my ears a system with good amp/speaker room interaction that sounds good but coveys the musical message in an obviously flawed fashion would do my head in for serious listening.


Me too! As they say, some get it early, some late - and some never.......... ;)

Marco.

Joe
16-06-2010, 21:18
Heh. I'm not the one that keeps wanting to 'soup-up' my system. It sounds great as it is, even without a copper amp!

Marco
16-06-2010, 21:40
Lol, I'm sure it does! But when am I, in your words, "always wanting to soup-up my system"?

The accent there is on "always". I think you're grossly exaggerating.

Far better to improve what you already have because you basically like what it does and know what the equipment is intrinsically capable of, than constantly box-swapping (unless you're Jerry!) chasing some deluded form of 'audio nirvana' because you don't know what the f*ck it is you want!! ;)

And how often do you see me changing the core components of my system or posting threads here expressing dissatisfaction with some aspect of my system's performance? I don't because I'm very happy with it and the components therein, and know exactly what I'm doing to improve them further, which is basically about getting more of what I already enjoy about them.

Occasionally, I'll have something modified internally or add a better component to some of my existing equipment (for example a PSU or bearing to my T/T), but I'm hardly 'always souping-up my system', Joe. You're being rather melodramatic for the sake of effect, me thinks! :eyebrows:

Most of the time my system just sits there playing music, and the only time I touch it is to load a CD or spin a record, which is exactly as it should be :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait
16-06-2010, 21:58
I already have great speakers.Nick is now builing the perfect amp for them.It works both ways.

Marco
16-06-2010, 21:59
Yes I heard that, Ali. I suspect the results will be quite stunning! :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
16-06-2010, 22:00
There are two types of upgraders:

Those who do so because they are dissatisfied with their system but chase rainbows by refusing to tackle the obvious flaws.

Those that do so because they ARE happy with their system but want to get even more of the same.

I've fallen into both camps myself. This year I found myself thinking that my system lacked bass drive so looked to change my speakers. Then Marco brought his Sony/Audiocom DAC round and the fireplace began to resonate with all the low-end energy. My DAC has gone to Anthony's for major surgery and I'm currently enjoying the amazing prowess of the Tom Evans Eikos Precision CD player belonging to Anthony. This is one setup I could live with happily until I had the opportunity to get even more of the same musical involvement.

Marco
16-06-2010, 22:05
There are two types of upgraders:

Those who do so because they are dissatisfied with their system but chase rainbows by refusing to tackle the obvious flaws.

Those that do so because they ARE happy with their system but want to get even more of the same.


Bang on, muchacho - and I've blissfully been in the latter camp for years! :)

Marco.

goraman
16-06-2010, 22:25
I already have great speakers.Nick is now builing the perfect amp for them.It works both ways.

Yes, I can see the horn mounted on a VW bug woofer cabnet,Who would have thought a ported VW bug is the perfact cubic volume for the big 31.5 inch Fostex woofer. Do you have a matched pair?http://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=304

magiccarpetride
16-06-2010, 23:12
Ah yes, the "rubbish in, rubbish out" approach.

True. However, this maxim applies to all the links in the chain, not just to the entry point (i.e. your analog or digital source signal) and to the exit point (your speakers).

In other words, you can feed a healthy, hearty signal into the digital transport, for example, but if that transport messes it up, it then feeds garbage into the DAC. What you get in the end (down the chain) is garbage entering your ears.

Or, the signal may remain healthy and pristine as it leaves the DAC, but then gets messed up at the preamp stage. This again results in the garbage hitting your ears. And so on -- the signal may get morphed into garbage at the interconnects stage, etc.

In my subjective experience, I've always gained the most improvements/degradation at the power amp stage. Yes, I can always hear notable differences whenever I change anything in my chain, but to me, power amp makes the most audible difference in the entire audio chain. Consequently, that is the component I've been experimenting with the most. Nothing makes such a dramatic difference in the sound as swapping the power amp.

Marco
16-06-2010, 23:23
Hi Alex,

That's likely because of how fussy the relationship is between the power amp and speakers with electrostatics, not necessarily because power amps universally affect the sound the most (they don't). Otherwise, I completely agree with you :)

I fear, however, that Brian is spending far too much time mixing it with the dogmatic measurement-obsessed objectivist brigade on a certain other forum, where he's become infected with the deluded notion that digital audio is somehow 'perfect' ;)

Others and his thinking on this matter is unfortunately way too simplistic.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2010, 23:38
All of the garbage in/garbage out cliches are fine as long as we don't go down the road of recommending a spend of 20p on the speakers and £10k on the source & amp. A situation that certain advocates of certain brands got perilously close to several years back.

So what has all of the above got to do with there being no natural home on the AoS for discussions about speakers?

I've often asked myself the question, but never been sufficiently motivated to ask you folks.

Marco
16-06-2010, 23:47
'Tis classic AOS thread drift, muchacho. You should be used to it by now! :eyebrows:

Incidentally, may I direct you to my post #62 on this thread and the question I asked you therein:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=130196#post130196

:cool:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2010, 23:53
Thread drift? yeah yeah, I know!
Just answered your question, sorry about the delay - the trees have been particularly demanding today!

Marco
17-06-2010, 00:07
No worries... And I know you talk to them, too! ;)

I've repied to your post - right now it's music time (I'm having a Blood, Sweat & Tears sesh at the moment) and then bed......

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
17-06-2010, 00:09
BST? Nice, but sadly under-rated in the UK.
..............enjoy!

Cheers

Steve Toy
17-06-2010, 00:48
All of the garbage in/garbage out cliches are fine as long as we don't go down the road of recommending a spend of 20p on the speakers and £10k on the source & amp. A situation that certain advocates of certain brands got perilously close to several years back.


Yes you can take things to extremes. Just looking at Naim hierarchy as an example, it is pointless putting an XPS on a CDX2 before you've upgraded your pre from the 202 to the 282 or even 252 although you can wing it with a NAP 200 power amp for a while at least into a pair of Allęs.

With 10k spent on source and amp, say a 6k source and a 4k amp, the speakers should cost around 2k. Obviously these are commercial price benchmarks. We can consider equivalent DIY or bespoke kit costing less and price it in commercial terms (various slurpers plus VAT) for comparative purposes.

What we don't want is the FNAC* model of £300 source, £500 amp and £2000 speakers with freebie interconnects and bell wire for speaker cable.

*Department store in France and Spain which is the equivalent of Curry's, Superfi and WH Smith rolled into one but with a fantastic music section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnac

Labarum
17-06-2010, 04:29
he's become infected with the deluded notion that digital audio is somehow 'perfect' ;)

Others and his thinking on this matter is unfortunately way too simplistic.

Marco.

O, I don't think it's perfect Marco - it just introduces less errors than a cartridge wobbling on an arm in a groove that contains data that was (most times) produced digitally anyway. So also runs the argument about FM Tuners which receive data from a transmitter fed from a digital line.

And I'd love to hear your big Tannoys, Marco. Folk in the other place will never convince me that a small two way can move enough air to do the job.

Ali Tait
17-06-2010, 08:59
Yes I heard that, Ali. I suspect the results will be quite stunning! :)

Marco.

I hope so,though going by the breadboard prototype,they'll be amazing!

Ali Tait
17-06-2010, 09:02
Yes, I can see the horn mounted on a VW bug woofer cabnet,Who would have thought a ported VW bug is the perfact cubic volume for the big 31.5 inch Fostex woofer. Do you have a matched pair?http://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=304


I wish a) I DID have a pair,and,b) the space to do them justice!

John
17-06-2010, 10:01
O, I don't think it's perfect Marco - it just introduces less errors than a cartridge wobbling on an arm in a groove that contains data that was (most times) produced digitally anyway. So also runs the argument about FM Tuners which receive data from a transmitter fed from a digital line.

And I'd love to hear your big Tannoys, Marco. Folk in the other place will never convince me that a small two way can move enough air to do the job.

Marco Tannoys shift plenty of air :guitar:

Marco
17-06-2010, 20:59
Lol - cheers, John!

Brian, when you're back in the UK and if you fancy a long-weekend in North Wales being fed nice drink and munchies and some decent tunes, you're more than welcome :cool:

Marco.

Labarum
18-06-2010, 05:49
Thanks for the offer, Marco, but I have enough difficulty maintaining family interests in SW and NE England!

At 0630 this morning it was 30 Celsius in our house. 37C is forecast, but it will probably get to 45C!

Marco
18-06-2010, 07:27
No worries, Brian - if you're ever passing by, like.... :eyebrows:

Gosh that's warm! I thought it was bad here last night. It's the humidity that's the worst thing.

It must be a nightmare for that where you are, but then you'll have air-conditioning, I suppose, and rooms furnished with hot, humid weather in mind, unlike homes here in the UK :)

Marco.