View Full Version : My new deck..
Wakefield Turntables
08-12-2019, 18:11
6 months in the waiting.
27066
Complete nuts and bolts restoration Garrard 401.
Complete Martin Bastin rework modifications
Martin Bastin plinth
SME V 12 inch tonearm
Townshend Seismic Isolators
Ortofon Royal N SPU (to be mounted)
Not decided upon the PSU but either Phoenix Engineering PSU+Tachometer or LDA Psu.
ovlov854
08-12-2019, 18:32
Very impressive. Hope it sounds as good as it looks
Ali Tait
08-12-2019, 19:06
Very nice Andrew.
Mikeandvan
08-12-2019, 19:19
What's the cut out for the motor unit like? Is it similar to Russ Collinson, cut around the 401s innards or just the usual?
Wakefield Turntables
08-12-2019, 19:21
What's the cut out for the motor unit like? Is it similar to Russ Collinson, cut around the 401s innards or just the usual?
The motor is decoupled. The plinth is built very snugly around the motor. The plinth weight ~50lbs.
Mikeandvan
08-12-2019, 19:41
The motor is decoupled. The plinth is built very snugly around the motor. The plinth weight ~50lbs.
I thought so, must get hot in there with so little space, is it designed like that to just add more weight to the plinth?
Wakefield Turntables
08-12-2019, 20:07
I thought so, must get hot in there with so little space, is it designed like that to just add more weight to the plinth?
I've never heard of a Garrard deck overheating, and I don't think one has ever been reported in over 60 years of since production started.
Mikeandvan
08-12-2019, 21:03
I've never heard of a Garrard deck overheating, and I don't think one has ever been reported in over 60 years of since production started.
You haven't heard of the great fire of 1987? It started in an audiophiles bedsit...…..
Looks superb. Battleship plinth! Bet is sounds excellent Andy?
You can spend many happy hours experimenting with armboard materials now :).
Great looking combo ... love the no-bullshit plinth
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2019, 21:09
You haven't heard of the great fire of 1987? It started in an audiophiles bedsit...…..
Ah that old historical event!
Looks superb. Battleship plinth! Bet is sounds excellent Andy?
Still have to wait awhile. The tonearm cable need re-terminating with a 90 degree jobbie.
You can spend many happy hours experimenting with armboard materials now :).
Ha! Yes I've been a victim of this. Permali/Panzerholz and then it's job done!
Great looking combo ... love the no-bullshit plinth
Ha! Yes it does look quite industrial.
Mikeandvan
10-12-2019, 00:12
The motor is decoupled. The plinth is built very snugly around the motor. The plinth weight ~50lbs.
OK basic question, what do you mean by 'the motor is decoupled'? Just getting my 401 set up now finally, so looking for advice, thanks.
Wakefield Turntables
10-12-2019, 08:56
The motor is not attached to the 401 and therefore no vibration from the motor going into the platter. It's a common design and implemented on a regular basis.
Idlewithnodrive
10-12-2019, 20:42
That should do nicely Andrew :thumbsup:
Enjoy :)
Mikeandvan
10-12-2019, 23:13
The motor is not attached to the 401 and therefore no vibration from the motor going into the platter. It's a common design and implemented on a regular basis.
Does the motor still sit within the plinth or go walkies to a near by metal box?
AJSki2fly
11-12-2019, 06:49
Looks lovely Andrew, bet it sounds good.
Fantastic, no doubt it sounds as good as it looks. Whats your first impressions?
My little garrard project is only a matter of weeks away now so this thread has made me even more impatient to get it finished
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wakefield Turntables
12-12-2019, 08:53
No first impressions yet I'm waiting for a special delivery from Yannis Tome. :eyebrows:
No first impressions yet I'm waiting for a special delivery from Yannis Tome. :eyebrows:
Oooooh very nice! Copper or silver?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wakefield Turntables
12-12-2019, 10:53
The SME v 12 is wired in silver, so the tonearm cable is one of Yannis silver 420xx designs.
Wakefield Turntables
22-12-2019, 13:29
Finally things are nearly setup! I'm still waiting for the Yannis Tome tonearm cable but I have a Nordost TYR plumbed into the SME V-12. The V-12 is finally setup so now it's just a matter of playing with tracking weights, anti-skate etc. Hopefully get a couple of hours tonight. :cool:
Mikeandvan
26-12-2019, 19:46
How are you finding it sir?
Wakefield Turntables
26-12-2019, 20:35
The Yannis Tome cable is still in the ether :( I have, however, been using a Nordost Tyr tonearm cable. I'd say that the 301 has a little more edge and punch, a slightly livelier presentation than the 401. The 401 gives a slightly softer, warmer presentation but with a greater clarity and inner-depth to the soundstage. I think this is the V-12 in action it's gives you the impression that it's the "guv'nor" and a vice like grip on proceedings. I'm still in the process of playing around with tracking and loading forces so this may have an impact on what I'm hearing. I would also say that the Yannis Tome creation is a pure silver creation whilst the Nordost is high purity copper with silver plating. So, overall I'm still in limbo, it's a nice place, however, as I have to listen to hours and hours of vinyl trying to fine tune the 401. If all else fails I've always got my old 301 sitting next to my Uber spec'd 1210 if the 401 pisses me off. Life's really hard you know. :eek:
Mikeandvan
26-12-2019, 21:14
The Yannis Tome cable is still in the ether :( I have, however, been using a Nordost Tyr tonearm cable. I'd say that the 301 has a little more edge and punch, a slightly livelier presentation than the 401. The 401 gives a slightly softer, warmer presentation but with a greater clarity and inner-depth to the soundstage. I think this is the V-12 in action it's gives you the impression that it's the "guv'nor" and a vice like grip on proceedings. I'm still in the process of playing around with tracking and loading forces so this may have an impact on what I'm hearing. I would also say that the Yannis Tome creation is a pure silver creation whilst the Nordost is high purity copper with silver plating. So, overall I'm still in limbo, it's a nice place, however, as I have to listen to hours and hours of vinyl trying to fine tune the 401. If all else fails I've always got my old 301 sitting next to my Uber spec'd 1210 if the 401 pisses me off. Life's really hard you know. :eek:
Sounds like you're enjoying yourself, certainly beats James Bond re runs. I'm also waiting on a Tome cable so I can raise my tonearm, not quite there yet with mine! I just got a £60 pure copper one. I've the Jelco 750 on it for the time being, but would like to try a 774.
Wakefield Turntables
27-12-2019, 11:12
Which TOME did you go for?
Mikeandvan
27-12-2019, 13:04
Which TOME did you go for?
Coppercord @ £60. I needed a completely straight/flush din connector as the tonearm sits fairly high in the 401, so cable needs to go into the tonearm/collar quite far. I'll get a new plinth soon though, just a cheapy ply one from Romania, I can't what sonic differences it would make with any other plywood plinth, it wouldn't be close cut to the motor like yours though, if that makes much difference? Do you screw your mounting screws down out of interest?
RobbieGong
27-12-2019, 13:22
Looks like Yannis is pretty busy with cables then, so we may be in for a bit of a wait but it'll be worth it.
Cant beat Yannis's tonearm cable quality and service in my experience - Very good cables and a top bloke.
I'm also awaiting another 'Yannis' which will be a bespoke 423.5plus.
He has to basically make it like the EPA-250 tonearm cable, which has a ground pin in the middle between the left and right rca, into the tonearm base.
I think he can do it, although just have to be mindful of the size of the KLEI Harmony plugs and fit.
The 423.5 I had previously was superb, the 423.5Plus is an improved version, I can only imagine it will be a stonker then https://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono-litz_plus.html
I'll be having the KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs fitted both ends - hope it all fits/ works out and cant wait.
I did enquire after the 420.5 you have Andy, (as you know it is the top of his high end offerings and isnt on his site), but I just could not justify the spend :eek:
Wakefield Turntables
27-12-2019, 13:48
Coppercord @ £60. I needed a completely straight/flush din connector as the tonearm sits fairly high in the 401, so cable needs to go into the tonearm/collar quite far. I'll get a new plinth soon though, just a cheapy ply one from Romania, I can't what sonic differences it would make with any other plywood plinth, it wouldn't be close cut to the motor like yours though, if that makes much difference? Do you screw your mounting screws down out of interest?
The "cheapy" plinth's from Romania are just as good as anything from this country at x3 or x4 times the price. I don't think the motor being close to the plinth is an issue. There are two sets of mounting screws. The first set is for the motor-cage to connect onto the top plate, and yes you need these screwed in. The 401 has four threaded rods which attach to the top plate and fix the deck onto your plinth via x4 nuts. The 401 needs to be screwed down onto the top surface of the plinth to try and "sink" vibration from the deck and it's components into the plinth.
Looks like Yannis is pretty busy with cables then, so we may be in for a bit of a wait but it'll be worth it.
Cant beat Yannis's tonearm cable quality and service in my experience - Very good cables and a top bloke.
I'm also awaiting another 'Yannis' which will be a bespoke 423.5plus.
He has to basically make it like the EPA-250 tonearm cable, which has a ground pin in the middle between the left and right rca, into the tonearm base.
I think he can do it, although just have to be mindful of the size of the KLEI Harmony plugs and fit.
The 423.5 I had previously was superb, the 423.5Plus is an improved version, I can only imagine it will be a stonker then https://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono-litz_plus.html
I'll be having the KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs fitted both ends - hope it all fits/ works out and cant wait.
I did enquire after the 420.5 you have Andy, (as you know it is the top of his high end offerings and isnt on his site), but I just could not justify the spend :eek:
Sounds good Rob and I hop you see the sonic benefits. I didn't want to faff around with months and years of tonearm cable assessments. I'd already had one of his cables some time back on the 1210 and just took a leap of faith with respects to the 420.5. I've had the cable for several years now and have never regretted the outlay. It's my "endgame" tonearm cable. It's a bit like buying a Cadenza black, there's no turning back once you've got one :D. Yannis also make some tonearm cables which cost mucho-bucks when compared to the 420.5, probably x4 or x5 the expense but these incorporate pure silver and gold!!!
Mikeandvan
27-12-2019, 20:32
Bollocks, me tome cable arrived and it ain't got an earth wire at the tonearm end, have to send it back, more waiting!!
RobbieGong
27-12-2019, 20:40
Bollocks, me tome cable arrived and it ain't got an earth wire at the tonearm end, have to send it back, more waiting!!
Waiting is painful - all I do in this game is wait.......:(
Mikeandvan
27-12-2019, 22:13
The "cheapy" plinth's from Romania are just as good as anything from this country at x3 or x4 times the price. I don't think the motor being close to the plinth is an issue. There are two sets of mounting screws. The first set is for the motor-cage to connect onto the top plate, and yes you need these screwed in. The 401 has four threaded rods which attach to the top plate and fix the deck onto your plinth via x4 nuts. The 401 needs to be screwed down onto the top surface of the plinth to try and "sink" vibration from the deck and it's components into the plinth.
Good to hear. My 401 sounds a bit raw in the highs at the minute, can't imagine that going away with a new plinth? Would a new mat sort that out at all? As it is, its a tad unlistenable because of those raw highs. Does anyone bother insulating the underside of the platter? I have it powered by an AG1500 mains regenerator.
walpurgis
27-12-2019, 22:19
Have a play with the VTA. That can have a significant effect on HF quality. The MP200 with Era V shouldn't sound coarse.
Wakefield Turntables
28-12-2019, 11:39
Good to hear. My 401 sounds a bit raw in the highs at the minute, can't imagine that going away with a new plinth? Would a new mat sort that out at all? As it is, its a tad unlistenable because of those raw highs. Does anyone bother insulating the underside of the platter? I have it powered by an AG1500 mains regenerator.
DONT do anything to the underside of your platter. It's a balanced platter and adding stuff to the underside will have a big impact. I use a Tenuto platter mat and a couple of damping rings around the platter rim. I'd invest in a couple of platter rings to dampen the platter, you can always sell them and they are reasonably cheap. The A1500 should regenerate a clear electricity supply with a steady Hz value. Changes to the Hz value in the voltage supply to the 401's motor will generate platter speed variations so the A1500 should sort this problem out for you. I run my 401 through my P10 and get good results.
Have a play with the VTA. That can have a significant effect on HF quality. The MP200 with Era V shouldn't sound coarse.
I'm currently investigating this myself.
krugdoktor
28-12-2019, 19:43
Bollocks, me tome cable arrived and it ain't got an earth wire at the tonearm end, have to send it back, more waiting!!
You don't need an earthing cable at the tonearm side if it is terminated with a 5 pin din connector. The earth connection is included!
Wakefield Turntables
28-12-2019, 20:35
You don't need an earthing cable at the tonearm side if it is terminated with a 5 pin din connector. The earth connection is included!
Good point!!
Use an MRA Ringmat system on the platter. See http://www.ringmat.com/index.htm
Mikeandvan
28-12-2019, 23:28
You don't need an earthing cable at the tonearm side if it is terminated with a 5 pin din connector. The earth connection is included!
Well, I have one my old tonearm cable and I can confirm it makes the tonearm completely silent, using it without it a slight buzz emits, silence is golden:)
Mikeandvan
28-12-2019, 23:30
DONT do anything to the underside of your platter. It's a balanced platter and adding stuff to the underside will have a big impact. I use a Tenuto platter mat and a couple of damping rings around the platter rim. I'd invest in a couple of platter rings to dampen the platter, you can always sell them and they are reasonably cheap. The A1500 should regenerate a clear electricity supply with a steady Hz value. Changes to the Hz value in the voltage supply to the 401's motor will generate platter speed variations so the A1500 should sort this problem out for you. I run my 401 through my P10 and get good results.
.
Thanks Andrew, I'll try another mat, may'be cheaper than a Tenuto though! Cork looks like it would have good damping properties.
krugdoktor
29-12-2019, 08:52
Well, I have one my old tonearm cable and I can confirm it makes the tonearm completely silent, using it without it a slight buzz emits, silence is golden:)
It seems there is no earth connection between your tonearm and the turntable chassis (no metal to metal contact). You could try an easy experiment: Take a unused cinch cable, press the center pin against the earthing point of your amp and the center pin at the other end against a metal part of your turntable chassis, if the buzzing is gone you need a simple wire connection between either the tonearm and the chassis (not so easy) or a wire between the turntable chassis and the earthing point of your amp (much easier).
Hope this helps!
Wakefield Turntables
29-12-2019, 10:32
Thanks Andrew, I'll try another mat, may'be cheaper than a Tenuto though! Cork looks like it would have good damping properties.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum where I tried at least 10 different mats up against the standard Garrard rubber mat. The Garrard mat fended off all comers! The Tenuto is a special mat and I've heard nothing better so far. It might be worthwhile biding your time and seeing if you can pick one up second hand as they do come up every so often.
i would concentrate on really setting it up 100% first,ie alignment,azimuth and vta. get that right before trying different mats.
Wakefield Turntables
29-12-2019, 11:39
i would concentrate on really setting it up 100% first,ie alignment,azimuth and vta. get that right before trying different mats.
I agree. It depends on what arm you've got as well. The SME V-12 takes approximately 5 minutes to set up. SME do great protractors. The only real thing you have to worry about is the cartridge loading and antiskate and even then it's pretty easy to "tune by ear".
Mikeandvan
29-12-2019, 11:43
i would concentrate on really setting it up 100% first,ie alignment,azimuth and vta. get that right before trying different mats.
Yeh, I thought I had it right, but not 100% on getting the headshell dead straight on the lines of the alignment gauge. Haven't really looked at azimuth yet, the cart obviously fairly straight anyway, but haven't tried to fine tune it, I think the Jelco hs 25 headshell allows for adjustment.
Mikeandvan
10-01-2020, 22:16
Tonearm 'coppercord' cable now back from Yannis, he added an earth lead at the tonearm end for me and returned it - all completely free - nice. So I'm now able to raise the tonearm higher, as the din plug is straight so can be raised through the collar more, just needed about 5mm, but level now. The tonearm looks very level, how much difference does a few mm make though? Is it worth getting the level out?
to some it does matter,other it doesn't,you will have to try it to find what camp you are in.
personally i set vta/sra up using 1 record which i know very well,once dialled in for that i leave it.
Wakefield Turntables
12-01-2020, 15:07
Now I'm debating power supplies. I'll discuss this later!!
Mikeandvan
13-01-2020, 23:14
to some it does matter,other it doesn't,you will have to try it to find what camp you are in.
personally i set vta/sra up using 1 record which i know very well,once dialled in for that i leave it.
I watched some bullshit video yesterday about .025 of whatever difference in vta, how the hell is that achieved?
Easy, use feeler gauges. :)
If you think it’s all a load of bollocks just aim to get the top of the cartridge level.
Mikeandvan
14-01-2020, 11:25
Easy, use feeler gauges. :)
If you think it’s all a load of bollocks just aim to get the top of the cartridge level.
Level with what?
walpurgis
14-01-2020, 11:53
Having the cartridge level is no guarantee of correct VTA. Vertical deflection of the cantilever varies according to tracking downforce and as this deflection (normally) follows a radial path (arc), obviously the angle of the diamond stylus will vary in relation to the record surface depending on downforce.
Just thought I'd throw that in to further confuse things! :)
a good starting point tho as long as deck is level, which most arent o the nth degree so worth setting the headshell at same angle as deck initially with a bubble then use your ears
Clive197
14-01-2020, 12:12
Don’t forget that VTA changes depending on thickness of record, so if you happen to suffer from OCD good luck.
walpurgis
14-01-2020, 12:22
Don’t forget that VTA changes depending on thickness of record, so if you happen to suffer from OCD good luck.
And platter mat.
Clive197
14-01-2020, 12:31
And platter mat.
Sorry Geoff, the platter mat will only make a difference if you keep changing it.
walpurgis
14-01-2020, 12:43
Sorry Geoff, the platter mat will only make a difference if you keep changing it.
As some do.
Clive197
14-01-2020, 12:46
As some do.
Really, “not a lot of people know that” LOL
Having the cartridge level is no guarantee of correct VTA. Vertical deflection of the cantilever varies according to tracking downforce and as this deflection (normally) follows a radial path (arc), obviously the angle of the diamond stylus will vary in relation to the record surface depending on downforce.
Just thought I'd throw that in to further confuse things! :)
Yes but he doesn’t want to bother as it bullshit lol
Mikeandvan
14-01-2020, 13:33
Yes but he doesn’t want to bother as it bullshit lol
How on earth am I supposed to raise/lower my tonearm at 0.025 of a mm? I can barely adjust it by a mm or 2, it is a Jelco 750D, there is no way to use a gauge as you say. At the moment it is finally sounding quite nice as I finally got the tonearm cable I needed (earth wire at both ends!) from Yannis Tome who added one free for me, so I am now able to raise it to the right level.
Mikeandvan
14-01-2020, 13:34
Parallel with the LP.
Well I the tonearm is fairly parallel with the LP, trying to upload pics, but Flickr is having one of its off days.
Mikeandvan
14-01-2020, 14:45
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49384286793_473e9ed20b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ieVnWz)IMG_20200114_122234219_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2ieVnWz) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
There we go, just a hex bolt to release the tonearm and then lift/lower it by 0.025 mm.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49384752346_1b62069ed2.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ieXLkm)IMG_20200114_122302960_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2ieXLkm) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
Looks ok to me, lost my thingy with lines on it for a clearer view, whats it called?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49384751696_685f6672a0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ieXL99)IMG_20200114_122416068_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2ieXL99) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
how much you raise or lower it is immaterial,just start off by getting the top of the cartridge Parallel to the record.
thats all you really need to do if your happy with the sound at the monent.
I can't remember where I read it but I'm sure someone produces an adjuster for the Jelco arm so that you can make adjustments on the fly so to speak.
Found the ebay link if it's ok to post it here,
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Easy-VTA-grey-and-silver-mounting-collar-Jelco-tonearms-/303335453257
Mikeandvan
14-01-2020, 20:01
how much you raise or lower it is immaterial,just start off by getting the top of the cartridge Parallel to the record.
thats all you really need to do if your happy with the sound at the monent.
I found the 'thingy' - cart looks almost spot on.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49385235152_f9210fba4e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2if1eRA)IMG_20200114_153211199_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2if1eRA) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49386654627_ab0d035efa.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2if8vPi)IMG_20200114_210052682_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2if8vPi) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
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