Doubling interconnects

[matt2007]

I read this article by Doug Schroeder and was a bit dubious but thought I'd give it a go.

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-schroeder-method-interconnect-placement/

I had a matching spare set of stereo interconnects so all I needed were the 2-into-1 adaptors which I found on the bay for under £5 for 5 (you need 4 per source).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RCA-Male-Phono-Y-Cable-Splitter-1-to-2-Female-Socket-Audio-Adapter-Gold-5-PACK/391654288279?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I use a Bluesound Node 2i into CR Kalypso amp connected to Boenicke W5 speakers. I first played a test track - "I Feel Like I'm Drowning" by Two Feet - a few times using the standard connection. I then powered everything down before doubling up the cables and re-listened.

In a word "WOW". The base was firmer, more precise and had proper pitch. Vocals were better separated from the surrounding music and locked into position. The sound stage expanded by about 25% giving a real wall of sound - extending well beyond the speakers left and right.

I initially thought this effect might just be a placebo - me wanting to hear a difference - so I reverted back to the original set-up to re-test. I wasn't being fooled - the improvement to the music was real - I couldn't believe that for £5 plus a set of cables I had brought about such a positive change.

It is definitely worth a go - your mileage may vary - as the saying goes, but in my system, in my room the changes were not subtle. I will be sticking with the double-cable connection for sure.

As the article states - you do this at your own risk - I double then triple checked all my connections before switching anything on.

[walpurgis]

You could plug your 2 into 1 adaptors into 2 into 1 adaptors and have four cables per run :).

[matt2007]

That's the next step :eek: but for the time being I'm pleased with the way my music sounds exactly as it is. I'll look into better quality adaptors as this is possibly the weakest link.

[JohnG]

I recall many years ago, making a DIY Interconnect out of a cheapo screened wire.
I ran two wires parallel, soldered the two centre cores together at the RCA.
So as a result it was a single plug cable.
A long time has passed, but I do recall, there was a very noticeable increase in the bass output.
I can't say if I can recall the cable being a overall improvement.
With improved systems and better quality cables available today, I'm sure there will be a much more accurate description of the effect to be offered.
Bring on the 'Siamese Spotfires' :interesting:

[Bigman80]

I recall many years ago, making a DIY Interconnect out of a cheapo screened wire.
I ran two wires parallel, soldered the two centre cores together at the RCA.
So as a result it was a single plug cable.
A long time has passed, but I do recall, there was a very noticeable increase in the bass output.
I can't say if I can recall the cable being a overall improvement.
With improved systems and better quality cables available today, I'm sure there will be a much more accurate description of the effect to be offered.
Bring on the 'Siamese Spotfires' :interesting:

It just got more copper and probably more capacitance, which will certainly effect the overall sound. As to whether its better, who knows.

[matt2007]

I recall many years ago, making a DIY Interconnect out of a cheapo screened wire.
I ran two wires parallel, soldered the two centre cores together at the RCA.
So as a result it was a single plug cable.
A long time has passed, but I do recall, there was a very noticeable increase in the bass output.
I can't say if I can recall the cable being a overall improvement.
With improved systems and better quality cables available today, I'm sure there will be a much more accurate description of the effect to be offered.
Bring on the 'Siamese Spotfires' :interesting:

Yes, the logical next step would be to do away with the adaptors and connect the 2 parallel cables into one socket. The only thing for me is that I would be stripping 8 good connector sockets with no guaranty the sound would be any better - it could even be worse.

[JohnG]

My thoughts on this at present are based from a experience of rejecting cables for their effects on SQ.
I today seem to find that the £70 - £120 a 1 metre pair purchase region, is offering to me a cable I can contently live with in my system, be it a new or used purchase.

With the above in mind, and if being really analytical, OCC is offering the most desired SQ as a interface wire.

To carry out a Siamese Interconnect exercise, and give it a worthy evaluation that I would be willing to recommend, would be a outlay I would need to give a consideration more than usual.

If I am going to use a Same Brand Cable at all interfaces, then a re-purpose of one interface to produce a Siamese Interface is a more doable option.

I feel confident the Bass Notes will increase in heft as I recall in the past, I would not be too sure of any other perceived improvements to predict.

I have a Soldering Iron, I have Silver Solder, I have RCA Plugs as well as OCC Cable.
Who Knows what one can get up to after being beaten mindlessly with Xmas TV. :)

[Slawts]

Both my pre and power have two pairs of sockets so tried it with 2 pairs of VdH First Metals. No change, no magic moment, no eureka.

[YNWaN]

I've just had a read of the linked article and it does seem to be based on some very questionable basics. One that stood out to me straight away is this:


The doubling of interconnects is seen by the source component as though driving interconnects twice the length...

Now as far as I am aware the above just isn't true and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between series and parallel connection.

_____________

As an aside, when one looks at the products produced by the larger market players, one often finds that (underneath all the marketing) the more expensive interconnect and speaker cables just offer more conductor.

[scotty38]

Plus I can think of an easier way to make the interconnect appear to be twice as long :lol:

[Pharos]

I've just had a read of the linked article and it does seem to be based on some very questionable basics. One that stood out to me straight away is this:



Now as far as I am aware the above just isn't true and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between series and parallel connection.

_____________

As an aside, when one looks at the products produced by the larger market players, one often finds that (underneath all the marketing) the more expensive interconnect and speaker cables just offer more conductor.

Absolutely, I couldn't believe it when I read it. The object with cables is to reduce resistance AFAP, and tqo parallel runs halves it. Why not just get a thicker cable?

[struth]

Instead of increasing the bass it may just be reducing the higher freq thus making the bass sound deeper.

[jandl100]

I read this article by Doug Schroeder and was a bit dubious but thought I'd give it a go.

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-schroeder-method-interconnect-placement/ ....

... In a word "WOW".

Very interesting, and well done for sticking your head up above the parapet on what was bound to be a contentious subject. :thumbsup:

I'll be giving it a try but I need to source the extra cables first .... or maybe a hybrid mix of cables would give interesting results? :eyebrows:

Here's a thought, Matt - have you tried single cables but with the adapters in place? That would address one of the variables from the experiment. Maybe it's what the adapters do to the sound rather than the doubling up of cable.

[Lawrence001]

I've always had a theory about doubling speaker cables with different types/guages of wire (in fact I just mentioned it on the biwiring thread) and the principles may apply here too, that is the cables will have different strengths in different parts of the frequency spectrum.

Now doubling SPDIF cables, there's an idea.. [emoji38]

[YNWaN]

It used to be quite the ‘thing’ for a while, using thin solid core for the tweeters and thick multi-strand for the bass (when bi-wiring that is).

[Stratmangler]

Now doubling SPDIF cables, there's an idea.. [emoji38]

Yes, it's an idea, and it's a poor one :)

[matt2007]

Instead of increasing the bass it may just be reducing the higher freq thus making the bass sound deeper.

I haven't noticed any reduction in the higher frequencies - all still there according to my ears.


Very interesting, and well done for sticking your head up above the parapet on what was bound to be a contentious subject. :thumbsup:

I'll be giving it a try but I need to source the extra cables first .... or maybe a hybrid mix of cables would give interesting results? :eyebrows:

Here's a thought, Matt - have you tried single cables but with the adapters in place? That would address one of the variables from the experiment. Maybe it's what the adapters do to the sound rather than the doubling up of cable.

I'm aware this is going to be very contentious - especially amongst those who haven't tried it for themselves :argument:

I've now re-tested with single cables + adaptors and the music sounds the same as single cables alone so the adaptors don't have an effect to my ears.

[Mr.Ian]

To optimise this you really need cables from by peter belt or russ andrews. Expensive but worth every penny in foo cred

[YNWaN]

I don’t think PB actually makes any cables, in fact he doesn’t make any components of any kind.

[Mr.Ian]

Long lost tweaker i managed to avoid but it was fun

[YNWaN]

His stuff is still available I believe - fringe by any standards.

[Mr.Ian]

Best for our pocket we dont go there but i can sell you a nos marker pen to put random coloured lines on the edge your 12 inch vinyl or cd. New comers to hifi dont know what they have missed

[Alex_UK]

Best for our pocket we dont go there but i can sell you a nos marker pen to put random coloured lines on the edge your 12 inch vinyl or cd. New comers to hifi dont know what they have missed

Sorry but random colours won't cut it. My extensive experiments proved that green is the only one that works, in line with the foo pedlars of the day! :lol:

[walpurgis]

This is true. The walpurgis 'Ultimate' digital interconnect cable is in fact green. Other colours just don't deliver! :)

[losepete]

Hi All

Having experimented with double biwiring speakers, using Audioquest Rocket
44 cable, and found the effect was that the sound produced by the speakers
was fuller - more of everything and all a little better defined - this
discussion finally pushed me into experimenting with what doubling an
interconnect could do.

So I dug out my soldering kit, some phono plugs and some cable.

As it happens I had just enough of the same cable that the existing "standard"
single stereo interconnect (see image 1 below) installed between my Meridian
G08 CD player and Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor is made of but not quite
the same phono plugs although they seem very similar - fairly inexpensive gold
plated phono plugs.

Swapping the single stereo interconnect for a double stereo interconnect made
of the same cable should make for a reasonably fair comparison.

I am not sure what Brand/Model the cable is - apart from well screened and
insulated solid core cable, possibly Audioquest - as there are no markings on
the cable. This may be due to age as I purchased 10 or so metres in 1998/99...

Here are some images of the cable and interconnects

1] cable construction - shown on a rule to give an idea of size

https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f34/losepete/interconnects/cable_zpsd2agfsn3.jpg



2] single and double stereo interconnects

https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f34/losepete/interconnects/single_and_double_zps9igvsd3z.jpg




Listening test performed by wife and son - whose hearing age is half wifes and
mine - without them knowing in advance which interconnect was currently
installed.


We selected the following CDs/Tracks as we were all at least slightly familiar
with them:-

1] Steve Windwood: Higher Love, (1) Higher Love (2) Take it As It Comes

2] Eurthymics: Missionary Man, (1) Missionary Man (2) Thorn In My Side


Wife and son then left the room while I "prepared" the system.
When I had loaded the Steve Windwood CD I waited a couple of minutes before
asking back in them to listen - at this point they did not know if the single
or double stereo interconnect was installed.

After we had listened to the 2 selected tracks both left the room again so that
I could change the interconnect. Having changed to the double stereo
interconnect we listened to the same tracks again.

Both said after a minute or so words to the effect of the sound is clearer than
previously, a little more of everything. I have to say that I agree with them.

To confirm their findings we decided to play the Eurthymics tracks: they left
the room and I swapped interconnects back to the single stereo.

When they returned and started listening both immediately said that they
thought I had "done something - probably swapped cables back" as the sound now
seemed a little more "distant" - not as clear and open as on the Steve Windwood
CD 2nd play (using the double stereo interconnect).

Having listened to the 2 tracks they left the room and I swapped interconnects
to the double stereo. When we started playing the CD they both said
"That's better" and explained they thought there was more to the overall sound.

So, wife and son both hear the same sort of difference I hear between the
single and double stereo interconnects.


We have now been using the double stereo interconnect for a few weeks and are
still convinced that the sound is clearer, better defined.


While I am happy with my "new" double stereo interconnect I am aware that the
cable itself is quite old. If anyone knows of a similar, more "up to date"
version of this solid core cable - possibly 2 solid cores with 1 core being
slightly larger than the other - I would probably be interested in giving it a
try especially as I am now keen to try doubling the interconnects between:-

1] Pro-ject PhonoBox DS+ to Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor - will the
LP12/Ittok/Kiseki Blue Gold Spot output benefit from this "cable doubling"?
- should I look into replacing the LP12 phono leads as well?

2] Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor and Meridian G55 Power Amplifier - to
"see" if there is a "system wide" benefit.


Guess I should also look into the quality of phono plugs to use - suggestions
for sensible priced, good quality plugs welcome.

[Pharos]

My inclination, if I thought that doubling was a definite improvement, would be to find a heavier cable, especially given the difficulties of connecting in the phono plugs. There must be some heavy duty stuff made.

[losepete]

Hi Dennis

The problem I seem to be having at the moment is locating any solid core cable suitable for interconnects on-the-reel. All I seem to be able to find is complete cables hence my question above "If anyone knows of a similar, more "up to date" version of this solid core cable..."

[CageyH]

Hi All

Having experimented with double biwiring speakers, using Audioquest Rocket
44 cable, and found the effect was that the sound produced by the speakers
was fuller - more of everything and all a little better defined - this
discussion finally pushed me into experimenting with what doubling an
interconnect could do.

So I dug out my soldering kit, some phono plugs and some cable.

As it happens I had just enough of the same cable that the existing "standard"
single stereo interconnect (see image 1 below) installed between my Meridian
G08 CD player and Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor is made of but not quite
the same phono plugs although they seem very similar - fairly inexpensive gold
plated phono plugs.

Swapping the single stereo interconnect for a double stereo interconnect made
of the same cable should make for a reasonably fair comparison.

I am not sure what Brand/Model the cable is - apart from well screened and
insulated solid core cable, possibly Audioquest - as there are no markings on
the cable. This may be due to age as I purchased 10 or so metres in 1998/99...

Here are some images of the cable and interconnects

1] cable construction - shown on a rule to give an idea of size

https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f34/losepete/interconnects/cable_zpsd2agfsn3.jpg



2] single and double stereo interconnects

https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f34/losepete/interconnects/single_and_double_zps9igvsd3z.jpg




Listening test performed by wife and son - whose hearing age is half wifes and
mine - without them knowing in advance which interconnect was currently
installed.


We selected the following CDs/Tracks as we were all at least slightly familiar
with them:-

1] Steve Windwood: Higher Love, (1) Higher Love (2) Take it As It Comes

2] Eurthymics: Missionary Man, (1) Missionary Man (2) Thorn In My Side


Wife and son then left the room while I "prepared" the system.
When I had loaded the Steve Windwood CD I waited a couple of minutes before
asking back in them to listen - at this point they did not know if the single
or double stereo interconnect was installed.

After we had listened to the 2 selected tracks both left the room again so that
I could change the interconnect. Having changed to the double stereo
interconnect we listened to the same tracks again.

Both said after a minute or so words to the effect of the sound is clearer than
previously, a little more of everything. I have to say that I agree with them.

To confirm their findings we decided to play the Eurthymics tracks: they left
the room and I swapped interconnects back to the single stereo.

When they returned and started listening both immediately said that they
thought I had "done something - probably swapped cables back" as the sound now
seemed a little more "distant" - not as clear and open as on the Steve Windwood
CD 2nd play (using the double stereo interconnect).

Having listened to the 2 tracks they left the room and I swapped interconnects
to the double stereo. When we started playing the CD they both said
"That's better" and explained they thought there was more to the overall sound.

So, wife and son both hear the same sort of difference I hear between the
single and double stereo interconnects.


We have now been using the double stereo interconnect for a few weeks and are
still convinced that the sound is clearer, better defined.


While I am happy with my "new" double stereo interconnect I am aware that the
cable itself is quite old. If anyone knows of a similar, more "up to date"
version of this solid core cable - possibly 2 solid cores with 1 core being
slightly larger than the other - I would probably be interested in giving it a
try especially as I am now keen to try doubling the interconnects between:-

1] Pro-ject PhonoBox DS+ to Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor - will the
LP12/Ittok/Kiseki Blue Gold Spot output benefit from this "cable doubling"?
- should I look into replacing the LP12 phono leads as well?

2] Meridian G61R SL Sound Processor and Meridian G55 Power Amplifier - to
"see" if there is a "system wide" benefit.


Guess I should also look into the quality of phono plugs to use - suggestions
for sensible priced, good quality plugs welcome.

It would have been interesting to have them leave the room, do nothing and see what they said when they came back in, as a “control”.
Although this seems like an interesting subject, personally I would spend my money on a higher quality cable, such as an OCC copper, or silver conductor, with some decent plugs. Getting two cables into one plug just seems like too much hassle to me.

[Pharos]

Hi Dennis

The problem I seem to be having at the moment is locating any solid core cable suitable for interconnects on-the-reel. All I seem to be able to find is complete cables hence my question above "If anyone knows of a similar, more "up to date" version of this solid core cable..."

I'm not sure what you mean by "solid core". In my career it has always meant a single inner conductor, made from only one thick strand. Why you would want that I do not understand, unless you believe S/S to have superior sound quality.

Interconnects are likely to be moved and flexed, and multi-strand cables are made that way to make them flexible and avoid breakages.

I currently have an FM aerial connection lead which has only one central conductor, and it is vulnerable, and I am seeking some multiple strand to reduce its vulnerability.

My interconnects are all Radiospares "Low Noise" screened cable, there being two sizes, standard and a finer version, I use the standard version, and it looks very similar to that in your pictures, but of course I cannot see the detail of the inner on them.

This RS cable has a semiconducting black plastic sleeve around the transparent dielectric insulator, which must be peeled back
when terminating, and also I recommend using meths with a toothbrush to remove traces of it from the sleeve.
I use the finer one for my Walkman Pro.

[losepete]

Yes, I hear a lot of difference between multistrand and solid core cables.

I find the multistrand cables I have tried deliver a boomy, over round sound - other people who have listened to differences between cables with me have described multistrand cables as "hifi" and solid core as "realistic". I can agree with that.

I do not spend much time behind my hifi moving interconnects around and have not had any problems with solid core cables breaking in the 20+ years I have been using them. I also have to add that there is a little flex in solid core cables - but one should still handle fairly carefully, no pulling on the cable to remove.

Guess I'll have to email Audioquest to find out if they can supply contact details of UK/European stockists of any of their off the reel solid core cable.

[sailor]

@losepete Hi Pete: Contact Chris at VH Audio, he has what you're looking for.

https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html

Consider his OCC solid core with special AirLok insulation which has the lowest dielectric constant.

His V-Twist is excellent which I have recently used to rewire my amp from input to amp module. A big improvement over the previous stuff.

The quality of wire makes a big difference but, in my opinion the quality of the RCA connector is even more important. He also sells the outstanding range of KLE Harmony low-mass RCA's

The Copper Harmony pack of 4 sells for $51.99 which is crazy good value. I am slowly replacing all my RCA's with these or the top of the range Absolute Harmony. Easy to work with.

WBT also has very good units at much higher price.

[Barry]

NVA use twin RG316 cable in a 'shotgun' configuration for some of their interconnects (I think they are called SSC). RG316 coaxial cable uses a solid centre core.

Most RF cables used for TV installations also have a solid centre core.

What you are doing in doubling up your cables is putting the two of them in parallel: so halving the loop resistance and inductance, but doubling the capacitance per unit length.

If you are interested in coaxial cables having both a solid centre core and a low dielectric constant (1.4) you might like to consider cables made by Gore. https://www.gore.com/products/gore-r-microwave-sealed-airframe-assemblies-7-series

[losepete]

Hi All

Thanks for cable suggestions, all look interesting and could prove to be alternatives to my current thoughts.

Currently considering Audioquest Mackenzie https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-mackenzie-2-rca-to-2-rca-audio-cable

Looking at the differences in prices for interconnect lengths I can only guess the cold welded phono plugs are the more expensive bit of the interconnect. Any opinions?

[losepete]

Hi All

Being using Audioquest Mackenzie interconnect between CD player and pre-amp for about a week now. Definitely an improvement over the "doubled" interconnect I have been using. To get the full benefit I will have to replace pre to power amp interconnects as well - more expense says the Wife ;-)