Moving magnet carts , can they -

[Hopeful]

Sound as good as moving coil carts ? .

I'm starting to wonder if moving coils are worth the faff . Has anyone gone from a moving coil to a decent moving magnet ( 2M black , Nag 500 , VM760 ect ) and been happy ? .

Tell me about your experience and see if you can help me with a Christmas present to myself .

[struth]

much depends on sound you like, type of stage/sut etc and types of music, so it can be difficult to be clearcut.
I used an mc for quite a while but im back on mm's. they suit me better. even my shure m55e(original) is to me, better than the mc's ive had or mostly heard, bu its a particular sound others might not like so much. My B&O sp1 is superb cart as well

[topoxforddoc]

Philip,

If you have a few minutes spare, you can read Rauliregas' thread on Audiogon (over 20 million reads). It's all in there

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc

I have a few of the cartridges mentioned eg Garrott P77i, Ortofon M20FL and AKG P8ES. They all sound pretty good.

Charlie

[Flo]

Excellent article , that’s what I call thorough. I’ve had 4 of those mentioned, fave was Reson Reca, ( curious to hear again) still use a nag mp500.
I remember when mc were considered strange Japanese exotica.

[Slawts]

Had the Len Gregory Musicmaker moving iron for a few years and enjoyed it but with an Ortofon Jubilee and a Koetsu Black it's MC all the way for me.

[YNWaN]

The answer, for me, is ultimately no. However, I think the low output variants of all the MC cartridges I have heard (where there is a low and higher output version) have significantly outperformed their higher output versions.

[graham67]

IME, it is easier to get an MM sounding good, (usually all it involves is a generic 47k loading and 100pf capacitance).

Getting the best from an MC cart can take a lot more effort (particularly where it involves a SUT or headamp). A decent MM cart will often outperform a similarly priced MC using a switchable MM/MC stage, particularly when it comes to rhythm and timing. What you gain in detail is often at the expense of that elusive musicality. I am not saying that MC carts are less musical, rather it can be harder to obtain that sweet spot where it all comes together.

It has taken a lot of time to get the best out of my MC carts. Worth it? Yes but dont expect to pop on an MC and necessarily achieve audio nirvana, it might take a bit of tweaking (and box changes) to achieve it!

I note you mention the AT VM760, one step up from my fave MM the AT150Sa (all but identical to the VM750). This is an excellent MM and will give plenty of mid range MC carts stiff competition. Used into a reasonable valve MM phono stage, you will get a high quality sound that will require more cash if you want to better using an MC cart.

[YNWaN]

I agree with all of Graham’s comments.

[antonio]

I have to say I will never go back to a MM, been using MC for 30 more years and I'd guess I could not do without the extra refinement.

[Mike Reed]

....but with an Ortofon Jubilee and a Koetsu Black it's MC all the way for me.

Wow; talk about chalk and cheese. In output, robust sound, and sheer musical pleasure (i.m.o., of course).

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've seven or eight MM of various brands and have many SPU's and high end Ortofon's........ I'll stick with my Cadenza black!!

[Hibster_2000]

IME, it is easier to get an MM sounding good, (usually all it involves is a generic 47k loading and 100pf capacitance).

Getting the best from an MC cart can take a lot more effort (particularly where it involves a SUT or headamp). A decent MM cart will often outperform a similarly priced MC using a switchable MM/MC stage, particularly when it comes to rhythm and timing. What you gain in detail is often at the expense of that elusive musicality. I am not saying that MC carts are less musical, rather it can be harder to obtain that sweet spot where it all comes together.

It has taken a lot of time to get the best out of my MC carts. Worth it? Yes but dont expect to pop on an MC and necessarily achieve audio nirvana, it might take a bit of tweaking (and box changes) to achieve it!

I note you mention the AT VM760, one step up from my fave MM the AT150Sa (all but identical to the VM750). This is an excellent MM and will give plenty of mid range MC carts stiff competition. Used into a reasonable valve MM phono stage, you will get a high quality sound that will require more cash if you want to better using an MC cart.

Agree with this, although I have never heard the AT150SA, but have heard the AT20SS and AT150MLX. Both very good carts, and need an eye wateringly expensive MC to better them.

[Hopeful]

Thank you to everyone who has replied .

I guess at the very high end of the MC world there is no competition from moving magnets , but what about the more affordable moving coils lets say the £500-£1000 range are they still head and shoulders above the better MM carts ? .

[Patrick Dixon]

I've had a few MC and MM cartridges over the years, but I just use Decca's now. They are neither MC or MM (although they use a MM gain phono stage). They need the right setup and partnering equipment, but IMV they get you closer to the music than any of the MCs I've owned, although maybe without some of the sugar-coating.

[AJSki2fly]

I've had a few MC and MM cartridges over the years, but I just use Decca's now. They are neither MC or MM (although they use a MM gain phono stage). They need the right setup and partnering equipment, but IMV they get you closer to the music than any of the MCs I've owned, although maybe without some of the sugar-coating.

Hi Patricl, Do you use London Decca cartridges and if so which do you prefer if you have tried more than one? Thanks Adrian

[Barry]

Hi Patricl, Do you use London Decca cartridges and if so which do you prefer if you have tried more than one? Thanks Adrian

I was going to suggest that fixed-coil cartridges can sometimes equal the performance of moving-coil designs, citing the Deccas in particular.

Whilst employing fixed coils (though they could also be designated 'moving iron' cartridges), Deccas are so removed from other fixed-coil designs that comparison is difficult. They use a 'sum and difference' arrangement of coils (which means only 3 wires are used; often causing hum problems when interfaced with the usual 4-wire systems of virtually all pickup arms), do not use a cantilever, have a pitifully low compliance (especially to stylus motion in the vertical plane), and can suffer from the most appalling workmanship and sample-to-sample variation. They can also be a PITA to set up and use - but when done properly and with care, can offer a presentation of the musical performance and a listening experience that is breathtaking and second to none.

Not a cartridge for everyone - but I always have a Decca set up on one of my TTs. Having listened to nearly all of Decca's designs and still owning a few - my favourite is the SC4E. If I were to buy a 'new' Decca, it would be the London 'Reference' - not cheap, but the workmanship is significantly improved, the sample variability eliminated, and it comes with the normal 4 output pins.



But if you want the excitement, air, atmosphere and transient attack of the Decca, coupled with the poise and elegance of a moving coil design, look for one of the Ikeda cantileverless MC designs.

[struth]

Only heard one and it sounded pretty tinny to me, and on a decent system of the day.
I'm sure it's not the norm but it put me right off. The owner sadly thought it was good.
I stick with my mm stuff, although I've already started boxing up records for storage.
I'm not giving them away for pennies. We'll not at moment. I'd rather keep them.
Or sell them to someone who actually wanted them and not the profit they can make.

[Patrick Dixon]

Hi Patricl, Do you use London Decca cartridges and if so which do you prefer if you have tried more than one? Thanks Adrian

I have had a few, all secondhand and all rebuilt by John Wright. Currently have an SC4e and C4e plus some 78 rpm and 'head' versions. I also had a Blue which I had rebuilt and transplanted into a wooden body and is now with a friend. Like Barry I would probably go for a London Reference if buying new.

I am currently using the SC4e in a Hadcock 242SE on a Sony TTS-8000 and it sounds better than any previous combination. I also have the C4e in a Mission 774 on a Thorens TD-124/2 and have previously used them in a Terminator and SME 3009/2 Imp (with damping).

I think the key is to get mass at the headshell (which is why the Mk4s and the re-bodied one sounded best IMV) and to find a good tonearm match. I contemplated buying a Graham Phantom to try but the Haddcock is just fantastic with my SC4e (it's a newer 10" version). I'd still like to try with a Graham and/or a Kuzma 4point one day or maybe a Nottingham Analogue Ace Anna.

Dynamics are amazing and in the Sony/Hadcock I also get a wide and spacious soundstage which was a little unexpected. As Barry says, the Deccas are essentially a mono design with a vertical component added as a afterthought to give stereo.

I was long intrigued about Deccas but topoxforddoc (Charlie's) write-up on his C4e a few years ago prompted me to try one. It's been a journey, but I was hooked once I heard The Jam 'Sound Affects' played on a very ragged Decca Blue.

[topoxforddoc]

Dynamics are amazing and in the Sony/Hadcock I also get a wide and spacious soundstage which was a little unexpected. As Barry says, the Deccas are essentially a mono design with a vertical component added as a afterthought to give stereo.

I was long intrigued about Deccas but topoxforddoc (Charlie's) write-up on his C4e a few years ago prompted me to try one. It's been a journey, but I was hooked once I heard The Jam 'Sound Affects' played on a very ragged Decca Blue.

I agree entirely. As a lifelong (at least in hi-fi terms) Decca user, the Decca bring an immediacy to the sound, which virtually no other cartridge provides. I have been using Decca since the age of 15, when I worked as the saturday boy with ken Kessler in Canterbury Hi-Fi. IMO the best vintage Decca is the FFSS MkIV (SC4e, C4e, RC4). If I had the spare cash, I would buy a new London Reference. It took me 3 years to track down a MkIV, but it was one of the best bits of kit I have bought in 40 years.

[dwhistance]

Another vote for the Decca C4e. I bought mine on a whim (because I hadn't heard one) and have listened to it more than my other cartridges ever since. It's really very, very good.

David Whistance

[Mike Reed]

Hmmmm! As I have (12") Ace Anna, maybe I should take a punt as I'm thinking of a change. I did have a Decca (London?) around 1975 but for the life of me can't remember the deck I had it on, though maybe the arm was the International which my bro.-in-law still has. I really don't remember much about the Decca (C4E maybe?) except its sheer chutzpah but those were early days and I think it was just another cart. at the time, just before I dived hook line and sinker into the very expensive quadraphonic fiasco (Marantz oscilloscope receiver and all the plug-ins).

Hmmm again !

[AJSki2fly]

I have had a few, all secondhand and all rebuilt by John Wright. Currently have an SC4e and C4e plus some 78 rpm and 'head' versions. I also had a Blue which I had rebuilt and transplanted into a wooden body and is now with a friend. Like Barry I would probably go for a London Reference if buying new.

I am currently using the SC4e in a Hadcock 242SE on a Sony TTS-8000 and it sounds better than any previous combination. I also have the C4e in a Mission 774 on a Thorens TD-124/2 and have previously used them in a Terminator and SME 3009/2 Imp (with damping).

I think the key is to get mass at the headshell (which is why the Mk4s and the re-bodied one sounded best IMV) and to find a good tonearm match. I contemplated buying a Graham Phantom to try but the Haddcock is just fantastic with my SC4e (it's a newer 10" version). I'd still like to try with a Graham and/or a Kuzma 4point one day or maybe a Nottingham Analogue Ace Anna.

Dynamics are amazing and in the Sony/Hadcock I also get a wide and spacious soundstage which was a little unexpected. As Barry says, the Deccas are essentially a mono design with a vertical component added as a afterthought to give stereo.

I was long intrigued about Deccas but topoxforddoc (Charlie's) write-up on his C4e a few years ago prompted me to try one. It's been a journey, but I was hooked once I heard The Jam 'Sound Affects' played on a very ragged Decca Blue.

Hi

That’s really interesting, I will investigate compliance with my set up, I suspect a London ref will meet the bill, so a bit of saving will be needed to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks

[dave2010]

Hi Patricl, Do you use London Decca cartridges and if so which do you prefer if you have tried more than one? Thanks AdrianI wonder where the Decca cartridges mentioned here come from. Are they all refurbished models from yesteryear?

[dwhistance]

Hi Adrian,

If I was you I'd try a C4E or even better an SC4E first. I'm sure the Reference is excellent but then so is the C4E and even allowing for a checkup and rebuild it will cost a fraction of the Reference.

David Whistance

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks David, I will see what can find when I have some cash.

[Vrajbasi]

Be it moving coil or moving magnet I find many cartridges simply do not cut the mustard in general sounding rather lean and bleached, the days of the great moving magnets such a Audio Technica atm170ml and180ml and shure ultra 500 have long gone. I can quite happily listen to the top end grado,s while they can be a little un entertaining but prefer these to 80 percent of moving coils out there. I have a London reference while I love it very much could not use it as a only cartridge I would want something a bit more refined and full bodied. Most moving coils to me sound rather thin and bleached even the likes of koetsu do not have there engaging qualities they once had. I just purchased a ortofon Ana diamond and again while I hear fantastic detail and wonderful imaging it just does not make music in my opinion the way I personally like. Moving magnets never quite have the detail and insight full ness of a good coil but at least in some instances do not have the hardness and bleached quality many coils have, generally I have found many expensive coils uninspiring to say the least. Luckily there are some lovely cartridges available that still make me smile I always keep a host of spu cartridges to make me smile while they dont do everything at least they have body and scale, the deccas have to be mentioned for there fun perspective, the Miajima's and very nice while they can be heavy bottomed would certainly put them in the high rank for there musical abilities and am happy to live with them. If I were lower down the scale I still like the grado's while lack the ultimate detail can sound very musical and rewarding to say the least. Some of the older cartridges from years back just seemed to have more body and soul and less analytic in my opinion. As moving coils go the likes of hannah while not the ultimate can be rather nice and pleasant and kind of affordable. I just find the whole cartridge buying experience rather daunting one cannot really listen to most models at home and even if you do one gets sample variations even two ortofon ana cartridges do not sound identical but compared to most others ortofons are better in this regard. Moving magnets can sound good as can good coils its certainly not a case of spending more and getting more in my opinion and certainly not easy to choose the right cartridge for many one has to buy blindly and hope for the best. For now I listen to the Etsuro line of cartridges and smile even that was quite daunting as I had to trust my dealer but generally he is pretty much spot on as he has heard almost everything on the market. I have come to the conclusion there are a handful of great cartridge manufacturer's out there and one just has to be careful at whatever price point, as its certainly not a easy purchase and can easily left very very un satisfied.

[Mike Reed]

Hi Adrian,

If I was you I'd try a C4E or even better an SC4E first. I'm sure the Reference is excellent but then so is the C4E and even allowing for a checkup and rebuild it will cost a fraction of the Reference.

David Whistance

Interesting thought, but I guess a Reference would be bought new wheres a C4E (oe SC4E) would be bought used for total refurb.

B.t.w., It's 'If I WERE you' (it's conditional and takes an 'unreal' verb form to accentuate the impossibility or unlikelihood).

[AJSki2fly]

Interesting thought, but I guess a Reference would be bought new wheres a C4E (oe SC4E) would be bought used for total refurb.

B.t.w., It's 'If I WERE you' (it's conditional and takes an 'unreal' verb form to accentuate the impossibility or unlikelihood).

Yes Mike my thoughts exactly, buying a C4E (oe SC4E) which seem to generally be up for sale for around £400 and then to have to pay out probably double that in refurb cost seems an odd route to take. Also the London Decca Reference as I understand it is much more compliant so is a better fit with a modern arm, so that issue is avoided with a Reference.

[walpurgis]

The Mk.IV Deccas and forerunners, to me at least, seem to have a 'bigger' sound than the Mk.V Londons onwards. I've not heard the Reference, but assuming it is developed from the Mk.V, it is unlikely to have the character of a Mk.IV. Perhaps this is why people are prepared to pay the money for the older ones.

[Vrajbasi]

The decca reference for sure has the boldest sound of the lot.In many ways offers fine value sound for pound.

[Patrick Dixon]

The Mk.IV Deccas and forerunners, to me at least, seem to have a 'bigger' sound than the Mk.V Londons onwards. I've not heard the Reference, but assuming it is developed from the Mk.V, it is unlikely to have the character of a Mk.IV. Perhaps this is why people are prepared to pay the money for the older ones.

I think it's because of the mass and rigidity of the body; which is why IMO my Decca (MkV) Blue, once rebuilt, retipped, damped and fitted into a wooden body sounded every bit as good as my SC4e. The London Reference has a solid machined body and I imagine is much more precisely set-up and aligned than the older cartridges.

[dwhistance]

I think the material they made the bodies of the SC4E and C4E has a big impact on the sound. The refurb cost is also quite low, albeit in my case John Wright didn’t think anything needed doing other than a clean and realignment which was £60. As far as compliance is concerned I have used my C4E in a Graham 2.2 and in a Fidelity Research FR64fx with an Orsonic head shell. Both worked well though I tend to use it in the FR more because of the unusual 3 pin wiring which was easier to deal with in the Orsonic (I asked AudioSilente to solder me up a three pin to four pin set of cartridge leads which work very well).

David Whistance

David Whistance

[Jac Hawk]

I've recently move over to using MC after using MM most of my life, my dad had a dynavector high output back in the late 70's and it never really sounded that good, maybe it was the system i don't know. In the MM world my favourite cart was the Ortofon VMS30 Mk2 it sat well in my system and gave a good account of it's self, earlier this year after reading many threads on here and other forums the MC itch was needing to be scratched, more out of curiosity rather than any dissatisfaction i had with the VMS30, anyway the company i work for has an account with Audio Technica so after speaking to a few folks decided to get the ART9.

My set up stayed the same with the only difference being the Firebottle OTP mk3 being switched to its MC setting, initially i was disappointed and although the ART9 was a little better especially in the mid frequencies it didn't blow me away, i stuck with it as i was told they can take a long time 30+ hrs to run in and I'm glad I did as wow what a cartridge and easily head and shoulders above the VMS30 with instruments being able to be located within the soundstage with pinpoint accuracy, very deep controlled bass and a huge expansive sound stage that seems to defy the size of my room.

I may have just been very lucky and put the cart on an arm and phono stage that just happened to suite it, i don't know but my question "which is best" has been answered.

[louie3]

Read this thread with interest. I went through several toneams trying to get the Deccas sounding right...Graham 2.2-9 inch, SME 309...too light, various Audio Technca vintage models. Ultimately found a Dynavector 507. VOILA!!!! Perfect match of mass and easily adjustable vta....but it is HEAVY....can't use it on my suspended table (Oracle Delphi MK 5/6). On either my custom plinth Lenco or a completely custom VPI-based belt drive, the Dynavector is wonderful. Easy to swap cartridges once you get the set up fixed on the head shell. I understand the DV 505 also mates well with carts needing higher mass.

I have a London Jubilee that has been re-tipped with a Shibata stylus....this was the cause of my great high mass tonearm hunt...the DV 507 handles this bitchy cartridge just fine. This Jubilee absolutely hated the Graham, and of course the SME. It almost worked on the heavier Audio Technicas....almost.

My experience is that any of the Deccas need 20+ grams of tonearm mass, however you might achieve that....I understand some folks run Jubilees on Grahams, but I could never get that combination to work for me.

Louis

[louie3]

FWIW: I do NOT suggest replacing the stock stylus on a Jubilee with a Shibata shape. Its just too twitchy bitchy. I have no doubt the Reference is wonderful, but I doubt I will ever hear it in my system. As several others have noted, John Wright's rebuilds (which is something of a misnomer) are the way to go unless your money belt is much fatter than mine.

[Mike Reed]

My experience is that any of the Deccas need 20+ grams of tonearm mass, however you might achieve that....I understand some folks run Jubilees on Grahams, but I could never get that combination to work for me.

Louis

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that about Deccas. At 11g, the Five would not have been compatible then. No idea about the Graham as I can't find any info on their eff. mass, as I was rather interested in a 12" one (B44 Phantom) to replace my 12" Ace Anna (about 14 g). I was also considering the Reed 3P, which I know to be 19g. My K.Urushi much prefers my gimballed 12" PU7 to my unipivot Ace Anna, so am a bit confused here; by choice, I s'pose.

[Jimbo]

Read this thread with interest. I went through several toneams trying to get the Deccas sounding right...Graham 2.2-9 inch, SME 309...too light, various Audio Technca vintage models. Ultimately found a Dynavector 507. VOILA!!!! Perfect match of mass and easily adjustable vta....but it is HEAVY....can't use it on my suspended table (Oracle Delphi MK 5/6). On either my custom plinth Lenco or a completely custom VPI-based belt drive, the Dynavector is wonderful. Easy to swap cartridges once you get the set up fixed on the head shell. I understand the DV 505 also mates well with carts needing higher mass.

I have a London Jubilee that has been re-tipped with a Shibata stylus....this was the cause of my great high mass tonearm hunt...the DV 507 handles this bitchy cartridge just fine. This Jubilee absolutely hated the Graham, and of course the SME. It almost worked on the heavier Audio Technicas....almost.

My experience is that any of the Deccas need 20+ grams of tonearm mass, however you might achieve that....I understand some folks run Jubilees on Grahams, but I could never get that combination to work for me.

Louis

My Decca worked OK to a point on my VPI but there was lots of speaker cone wobble evident which I have not had with any other cartridge. The Decca also struggled to track well at all times but apart from that is sounded very good indeed. I agree I think they need a high mass tonearm to get the best out of them.

[Patrick Dixon]

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that about Deccas. At 11g, the Five would not have been compatible then. No idea about the Graham as I can't find any info on their eff. mass, as I was rather interested in a 12" one (B44 Phantom) to replace my 12" Ace Anna (about 14 g). I was also considering the Reed 3P, which I know to be 19g. My K.Urushi much prefers my gimballed 12" PU7 to my unipivot Ace Anna, so am a bit confused here; by choice, I s'pose.

I've used Deccas with a Hadcock and a Mission 774 so there isn't a high mass rule at all. Damping helps.

FLSs are harder to get working right, but no pain, no gain as they say.

[Chris]

FWIW I have been using my 40 year old A&R P77 for the last year while my Esco Troika sleeps in a drawer. I had the P77 retipped with a hyper elliptical tip and also a new, different shaped magnet but using the original cantilever. I left it to the taste of the retipper, an Italian guy. It came back with appreciably higher output and just sounds great: deeper bass, more body, more relaxed and “right”. I have just sent off a second P77 for a similar treatment (with different and hopefully better magnet this time) . I believe the hyperelliptical tip majors on lower background noise and meatier sound than the detail at all cost microline tips but gone is the anaemic bass light sound of my retipped Troika. I dunno, maybe my valve phono is happier with a higher input signal and no step-up between it and my Linn, Ittok.

I do have an unused A&R PN7 replacement stylus so I can easily compare the before and after the retip job. There is absolutely no comparison and the original P77 was well loved by many and it certainly works for me.

Yes, of course I am deaf but also much happier with my system, at least for now.

[JohnG]

I would be interested to know who carried out the work on your A&R.
It is one I have held onto and would be happy to give it a go once more as a MM Cartridge.
I have seen much said about it paired with the Jelco SAS 1 Stylus.

[Chris]

Hi JohnG,

I will ask him but don´t build your hopes up. I believe he is not accepting any new orders at present. I will get back to you.

What I can tell you is that there are in fact 2 different body models and therefore 2 different styli fits. Mine is the one with open lugs instead of holes and the 4-sided guide tune enters into an orifice entirely situated on the front face of the body as opposed to the other where the hole straddles the front face and bottom. hence the talk of ill fitting replacements. Be careful- )I have no idea which one the Sas-1 fits.

[dave2010]

I just spotted a post about an AT moving coil cartridge, so I followed it up by looking at the AT site and the specifications. One sentence alarmed me - effectively that there seems to be no way for an end user to change the stylus.

Is this normal with moving coil units? If so, given the original high cost of some of these, that would pretty much bang these on the head for me. Even with a stylus replacement service, that would probably still be relatively expensive, and present extra inconvenience. Am I wrong about this?

At maybe $500 (or more) for one of those models, 500 playing hours would cost $1 per hour - which is perhaps not too bad if the results justified it, or can these things go for thousands of hours before stylus replacement/repair/update is an inevitable requirement?

[graham67]

Hi Dave, you make a very good point. the more sophisticated profiles will last longer, microline 1000 hours, Shibata 800 hours, and elliptical only 300 hours, according to Audio Technica. Which is a good argument against buying a cheapo profile as over the life of several cartridges , the cost of a better sounding profile would be little more than the cost of running more frequent cheaper cartridges.
My Audio Technica Microline cartridges do seem to last for the stated hours. Using a record cleaner will extend the life of a stylus. But won't make any difference to cantilever sag which finished my first OC 9.
I would recommend making sure the rest of your replay chain is up to scratch before investing in a big bucks cart. For example a better phonostage SUT or Headamp can give just as big an improvement and won't wear out.
I have learnt this the hard way, having used but not got the best out of some MC carts. In the end I sold or retired the carts and went back to MM while I got everything else sorted out.
Now I can definitely appreciate the benefits of MC over a good MM, but it's taken a lot of time and tweaking to realise the potential.

[paulf-2007]

Be it moving coil or moving magnet I find many cartridges simply do not cut the mustard in general sounding rather lean and bleached, the days of the great moving magnets such a Audio Technica atm170ml and180ml and shure ultra 500 have long gone. I can quite happily listen to the top end grado,s while they can be a little un entertaining but prefer these to 80 percent of moving coils out there. I have a London reference while I love it very much could not use it as a only cartridge I would want something a bit more refined and full bodied. Most moving coils to me sound rather thin and bleached even the likes of koetsu do not have there engaging qualities they once had. I just purchased a ortofon Ana diamond and again while I hear fantastic detail and wonderful imaging it just does not make music in my opinion the way I personally like. Moving magnets never quite have the detail and insight full ness of a good coil but at least in some instances do not have the hardness and bleached quality many coils have, generally I have found many expensive coils uninspiring to say the least. Luckily there are some lovely cartridges available that still make me smile I always keep a host of spu cartridges to make me smile while they dont do everything at least they have body and scale, the deccas have to be mentioned for there fun perspective, the Miajima's and very nice while they can be heavy bottomed would certainly put them in the high rank for there musical abilities and am happy to live with them. If I were lower down the scale I still like the grado's while lack the ultimate detail can sound very musical and rewarding to say the least. Some of the older cartridges from years back just seemed to have more body and soul and less analytic in my opinion. As moving coils go the likes of hannah while not the ultimate can be rather nice and pleasant and kind of affordable. I just find the whole cartridge buying experience rather daunting one cannot really listen to most models at home and even if you do one gets sample variations even two ortofon ana cartridges do not sound identical but compared to most others ortofons are better in this regard. Moving magnets can sound good as can good coils its certainly not a case of spending more and getting more in my opinion and certainly not easy to choose the right cartridge for many one has to buy blindly and hope for the best. For now I listen to the Etsuro line of cartridges and smile even that was quite daunting as I had to trust my dealer but generally he is pretty much spot on as he has heard almost everything on the market. I have come to the conclusion there are a handful of great cartridge manufacturer's out there and one just has to be careful at whatever price point, as its certainly not a easy purchase and can easily left very very un satisfied.
Shure ultra 500 in a Martin bastin body and Jico stylus for me, wouldn't swap it for anything. I had a decca c4e that gave that up front dynamic sound but it also picked out every speck of dust on a record and drove me nuts.

[Patrick Dixon]

Is this normal with moving coil units?

Yes it is. If you think about the stylus/cantilever assembly on a MC compared to a MM, you'll realise that it would be very hard to engineer a solution that has a user replaceable stylus on an MC. The MM just has magnets on the end of the cantilever, whereas the MC has tiny coils which have to connect into the arm wiring using tiny wires.

[dave2010]

Hi Dave, you make a very good point. the more sophisticated profiles will last longer, microline 1000 hours, Shibata 800 hours, and elliptical only 300 hours, according to Audio Technica. Which is a good argument against buying a cheapo profile as over the life of several cartridges , the cost of a better sounding profile would be little more than the cost of running more frequent cheaper cartridges.
So how do the costs per playing hour stack up - MC vs MM if we assume that some form of factory refit is needed with the MCs periodically - or do you simply discard them or start over? [.. which I rather doubt ...]

Do true enthusiasts have more than one cartridge on the go, to allow for downtime/refit time? Also, do you get picky about which discs get played, and perhaps just go for CD or something else if the recordings are known to be below par?

I'm yet to be convinced of the merits of vinyl, having switched to CD almost as soon as CDs were available, but I still have LPs, and in some cases I have felt that the LPs did sound better than the equivalent CD version. I wouldn't really want to switch back either to MM or MC unless there were clear sonic benefits, and additionally if so doing to get acceptable quality didn't require me to sell my house, car, wife .....

[struth]

Ive used both, and ive never worn out a stylus lately.. mostly stick now to mm, as I prefer the sound. Ive 3 carts currently in rotation. You can get quite a few sides out of a stylus, so as long as its not on 10 hrs a day its going to take a good length of time to wear it out.
as soon as im up to it im gonna sell my vinyl front end as im not getting the use of it now. im all files now really.

edit, keeping records clean will also increase the tips life.

[Made in 1968]

Never touch an MC again. Rock music sounds so much better to me with a good MM/MI.. Anyway MC are above me ;)

[CageyH]

If you want value for money, have a look at the new AT VM-95ML.
A big step up from the old AT95e of old, with a micro line stylus. Sure, you can get a better MM cartridge, but they come at a much higher cost.