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Recently acquired these two items
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/kernowman/esound_YS_june10.jpg
Have wanted an Eastsound player for a very long time and just for once the tricky art of getting the timing right of selling the old player and sourcing it's replacement panned out quite nicely, even though I had to wait over a week for it to arrive.
It is certainly a step up from the Myryad player that went before, but not a huge leap, more a case of some more subtle nuances.
The YS Audio Symphonies Plus pre is causing me some consternation though. While the bass it produces is awesome with it's huge depth and resolution, the midband is certainly congested and I don't feel the top end has as much sparkle as I would like - certainly compared to the MF F22 pre I had. The reviews on this pre are rather good, describing the speed, litheness and agility the sound has, yet I can't seem to get those results. The previous owner had it modified at DMS Audio http://www.dms-audio.com/symphonies-plus-pre-amp because it was a tad "too bright" for him. I think doing that has thrown the baby out with the bathwater to be honest, but there you go.
Step one is to replace the front end valve from a Mullard ECC83 to a new Electro Harmonix 12AX7 which should add some top end sparkle hopefully. I haven't cracked the lid off yet to see what has been modified and/or upgraded but I really do want to get rid off the midrange bloom it has for sure.
Cracked the off the pre today and took out a Mullard ECC83 and replaced it with an Electro Harmonix 12AX7. Has brought the treble up slightly and taken away the midrange cloud, but has reduced the bass quality an quantity. You can't win :(
It has however had the full monty of mods from DMS Audio so I may have to start backtracking on those to see what is putting the sound out of balance because it should have sounded really ace with the Mullard valve in my experience.
Ali Tait
16-06-2010, 07:00
Try some different valves before anything else would be my advice.A lot of people rate Telefunken as the best.Not cheap though.The new TJ valves are also well thought of.
Hi Frank,
Speak to Swampy (Dave) and Dave Hewitt, as they've both owned (or still own) the same AS preamp. They have both modified it extensively, so they should be able to give you some good advice. Just pop 'em a PM.
Let me know how you get on :)
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
16-06-2010, 11:51
hi,I have the schematics for the psu and linestage as well as the phonostage,can send them if I can find out how.
Dave.
hi,I have the schematics for the psu and linestage as well as the phonostage,can send them if I can find out how.
Dave.
That would be great Dave. It will certainly help me to untangle what mods have been done and what I think should be reversed. DMS Audio and the previous owner of this pre much preferred a "warm" sound whereas I like clarity and dynamics
The standard caps in this pre are mains x-class caps. The x-class caps are very bright and forward sounding... you may like them but quality film caps are better IMHO... stay away from Obbligato caps.. they sound warm and lack timing me and Dave found. Mullard tubes can be warm, laid back and lush sounding so as already suggested try 3 new tubes. GE and Brimar are brighter and have a more etched edgy sound. Also do not forget the rectifier tube for another brand. This can make the pre sound soft and flat depending on type and can make or break the sound. Also as the rectifier tube ages is can go softer sounding so try a new 6x4 tube I think it is. These are cheapish.
Standard signal wire is basic common screened stuff. The standard sockets tarnish eventually so better sockets a must. Standard volume pot is Alps blue. Most other parts are good... dale resistors in key locations.
I used to have a E-Sound CD Player. Dave H still has his. I personally did not like the Mid range the E5 produces, a bit un-natural sounding compared to my MF A308 but it was certainly detailed but to me had a 'wrong' sound about it. You should like it if you prefer a detailed analytical sound over a warmer sound.
Sometimes I wish that Glenn Croft could do a whizz-bang bling front panel option for his gear. That preamp looks very classy, but I'll bet a Croft would eat it alive..
Apologies, but I hate it when people mod the hell out of otherwise well balanced gear to *change* the sound to taste, rather than improve it subtly with better specified components. My Croft's Mullards are CV4003/4004 and these work fine and sound great, with one pinging off for a few seconds on the phono stage after minute or two, behaving perfectly thereafter.
Good luck with the "back-tracking." In some ways, I'd suggest a cheap Audiolab 8000C, MF XP100 or late AVI S2000MP to keep as a general fixed reference, so you'll know how far you've strayed (or not) from neutrality of tone at least. It's amazing how close my Croft is to the AVI overall, just so much more involving and enjoyable, without sounding "doctored" in any way (it measures well too for a valve product, but I digress).
YSA have tube products levels 1 to 4. This pre sells as a level 2 item and the designer will give you a list of parts to change if you want to take it to level 3 or 4. Just as Glen Croft will mod your pre amp for you if you wish with new caps / parts thus altering its tonality.
Soon as you use a different set of tubes, caps, wire etc you are moving away from the designer / builders original 'sound' whether that be neutral in the first place. Who is to say that Mullard Tubes are Neutral compared to any other brand, maybe they are in the croft. Circuit makes a big difference and put the same Mullards in another pre and they will take on a different tone due to operating points, circuit topology etc.
Hi Dave,
Who is to say that Mullard Tubes are Neutral compared to any other brand, maybe they are in the croft but then circuit makes a big difference and put the same Mullards in something else and they may take on a different tone due to operating points, circuit topology etc.
Indeed, and the same applies here to your comments about Obbligatos:
stay away from Obbligato caps.. they sound warm and lack timing me and Dave found.
Not inside my Croft preamp, they don't - not even remotely so! :eyebrows:
Generalisations, I'm sure you'll agree are dangerous, mon ami ;)
I agree with the rest of what you've written. I don't think you can get a proper handle of the sonic signature of valves, caps, etc, until they've been tried many times in different circuits - and even then, there could be a circuit somewhere which optimises the particular characteristics of those components.
Marco.
Hi Dave,
Indeed, and the same applies here to your comments about Obbligatos:
Not inside my Croft preamp, they don't - not even remotely so! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yes, point taken. I really used to like these caps and always used them. Then Dave H and myself had no luck with these in this pre-amp or the Impluse speakers so we both stopped using them. I really like the tin foil versions of these but voltage is limited at 250V so not suitable for some amps.
I guess if we all want flat and neutral; we should all be buying naim gear ? I like to tune my system to a sound I like, as do we all I suspect.
I think you're absolutely right, mate. It's a system you're building, after all, which means that the sonic characteristics of everything used, from cables to the equipment itself, must 'pull together' in a way which our ears deem as musically satisfying....
"Flat and neutral" rarely comes into it, and even then it'll only be what we consider as 'flat and neutral', rather than it being measurably the case.
Yes, the tinfoil Obbligatos are what I'm using in the Croft, where of course the 250V rating is ample. They sound absolutely sublime, in the same way as the SCR teflon coupling caps do, too! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks for your inputs chaps.
Taking out the Mullard ECC83 and dropping in an Electro Harmonix 2AX7 has certainly lifted the midrange bloom and sharpened up the top end. However, the Mullard did produce a very deep and articulate bass which the EH valve can't emulate - unless some "running in will change it's characteristics. It is said that a Brimar valve in the centre slot is a good compromise.
Let me add that the YS pre was not my choice of replacement for the MF F22. I sent it round ebay a fair few times with no takers and one chap offered the YS and some cash off ebay so I took him up on his offer - at least some coin crossed my palm :lol:
Thanks for your inputs chaps.
Taking out the Mullard ECC83 and dropping in an Electro Harmonix 2AX7 has certainly lifted the midrange bloom and sharpened up the top end. However, the Mullard did produce a very deep and articulate bass which the EH valve can't emulate - unless some "running in will change it's characteristics. It is said that a Brimar valve in the centre slot is a good compromise.
Many tube heads like the mid range bloom ... mostly even order harmonics typical of some tube amps.
True, but count me out. I don't think that's really your thing either, Dave, is it? The 'pipe & slippers' pish is what gives valves a bad name!
Frank,
I've got quite a lot of experience with tube-rolling, and often Brimars are a good half-way house between the mellifluous sound of Mullards and the more incisive and dynamic sound of current production valves, like the EH you mention.
Brimars, generally, have most of the bass weight and midrange clarity of Mullards and a goodly dose of the treble sparkle of the EHs.
I would therefore recommend you check them out. As an aside, I have a spare Telefunken ECC83 'long, smooth plate', NOS Tesla E83CC frame-grid type, and one of the new Tech-Tube ECC83 types, along with some Chinese Cryo'd ECC83s, if you'd like to try them in your system.
PM your addy and I'll pop them in the post :)
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
17-06-2010, 10:53
scematics for ys audio pre and psu attached
True, but count me out. I don't think that's really your thing either, Dave, is it? The 'pipe & slippers' pish is what gives valves a bad name!
Frank,
I've got quite a lot of experience with tube-rolling, and often Brimars are a good half-way house between the mellifluous sound of Mullards and the more incisive and dynamic sound of current production valves, like the EH you mention.
Brimars, generally, have most of the bass weight and midrange clarity of Mullards and a goodly dose of the treble sparkle of the EHs.
I would therefore recommend you check them out. As an aside, I have a spare Telefunken ECC83 'long, smooth plate', NOS Tesla E83CC frame-grid type, and one of the new Tech-Tube ECC83 types, along with some Chinese Cryo'd ECC83s, if you'd like to try them in your system.
PM your addy and I'll pop them in the post :)
Marco.
You are a real star Marco. PM sent.
No worries, dude. S'all part of the service :)
Dave, cheers for posting the schematics! :cool:
Marco.
scematics for ys audio pre and psu attached
Many thanks Dave.
Just a brief look at the circuit tells me both the input and output caps have been changed to larger values, so reading DMS Audio's website blurb it has been done to add some warmth to what was/is a fast sounding sounding component. When I get some spare time to play I will look into it a bit deeper.
I am truly indebted to Marco who has kindly sent me a box of valves to do some tube rolling with and of course to Dave Hewitt who has also given me some valuable advice with circuit diagrams and other useful tips for a better sound. To me, this is the real essence of a great hi-fi forum where genuine help is at hand to fellow enthusiasts in need.
I was getting a bit despondent with the YS Audio because with the original Mullard valve it sounded lush in the bass with little else going for it. The switch to the new EH valve I bought took away the bass strength and left me with an unsophisticated treble to contend with.
Last night I plumbed in Marco's Tube Tech valve which also had a rich fullsome bass, but blow me down I could actually hear some sweet treble too in the mix - promising. Then I fitted one of the TAD cryo'ed valves from Watford Valves and now we were really cooking :) Bass is full and deep, but not overpowering at all, more in balance to be truthful so I could enjoy the bass line articulation without it swamping the rest of the music. Percussion has taken on a real snap, so a snare drum now sounds like a real stick hitting skin instead of sounding like a sponge flung against cardboard. Looking forward to tonight when I can try out the other valves Marco has sent me and see what unfolds.
Hi Frank,
No problem. It'll be interesting to hear what the Tesla and Telefunken do :)
The 5751 GE valve is also a goodie, but has slightly less gain, which is sometimes no bad thing depending on the preamp being used.
Marco.
I guess if we all want flat and neutral; we should all be buying naim gear ?
Naims are a lot of things, but flat and neutral they aint... well, most of 'em anyway :lol:
I hope Marco would agree that the likes of AVI's ss amps and possibly LFD could be fairly called flat and neutral, often with clinical overtones if not partnered right..
Hi Frank,
No problem. It'll be interesting to hear what the Tesla and Telefunken do :)
The 5751 GE valve is also a goodie, but has slightly less gain, which is sometimes no bad thing depending on the preamp being used.
Marco.
Methinks you already know the answer to my views on the Tesla and Telefunken ;)
Anyways, a bit more swapping tonight and we have a clear winner for me - the Telefunken which put all the others in the shade with the TAD as second best a long way back. The TAD has slightly more bass and a bit uncouth in the upper treble COMPARED TO THE TELEFUNKEN and if I had no comparison against such a fine valve it probably would have been more than acceptable in the YS pre, because it trounced all the others easily.
The TFKN has an extended and very detailed treble, the bass is a shade understated perhaps but that's no big deal for me. What blew me away was the way the entire sound was lifted out of the speakers and placed right in front of my listening position, with height, depth, width, the works. Awesome. Little wonder they are in demand, which of course makes them a tad expensive.
The Tesla sounded terrible; imagine if you will an LP running at 25rpm instead of 33 1/3 and that's the perception I got from it. Slow isn't the word for it :(
Bugger playing around with the GE tonight, I'm off to listen to some choons :)
Many thanks Dave.
Just a brief look at the circuit tells me both the input and output caps have been changed to larger values, so reading DMS Audio's website blurb it has been done to add some warmth to what was/is a fast sounding sounding component. When I get some spare time to play I will look into it a bit deeper.
The input caps were increased to stop bass roll-off on some power amps. Depends on what it is driving. You can drop the values for a leaner more focused sound if it drives your amp with too much low frequency bass.
The circuit sent with the pre never had any values printed on, they were hand written maybe indicting that the value was never set in stone.
Dave's resistor mod is supposed to make it even more dynamic better than Aikido pre !!
Hi Frank,
I'm not surprised you like the Telefunken. I suspected it would hit the spot :)
That's interesting with the Tesla, as in my system it works really well, so it just shows how system-dependent the results are with tube-rolling!
What do you think of the 5751?
Marco.
Hi Dave,
I hope Marco would agree that the likes of AVI's ss amps and possibly LFD could be fairly called flat and neutral, often with clinical overtones if not partnered right..
Yes, that's a fairly good summary of their effect :)
Marco.
Hi Frank,
I'm not surprised you like the Telefunken. I suspected it would hit the spot :)
That's interesting with the Tesla, as in my system it works really well, so it just shows how system-dependent the results are with tube-rolling!
What do you think of the 5751?
Marco.
I still cannot fathom out how the Tesla valve managed to make the sound so slow, because as we both know it is an impossibility for it to do that, but do that it did. The bass was very ponderous indeed, sounding like a wind-up gramophone that needed cranking and I remember Mr C saying at a bakeoff once that the bass timing was way off on a pair of speakers and I understand now what he meant. Tonally, the Tesla was just fine.
I didn't get to try the GE last night as I went from the TAD (which was still in from the previous night) to the Telefunken, then the TAD again and returned to the Telefunken to confirm what I was hearing. Luvvly jubbly ;)
Tonight I tried the GE valve and that was fair sounding, but very much on the soft and gentle side with transients rounded off. Probably ideal in a harsh up front system but not in mine.
So, THE clear winner without any doubt is the Telefunken by a country mile. That top end detail is sublime, midrange is uncoloured, bass is slightly lightweight, although still detailed and able to convey subtle timbres nonetheless. In my system and my awful listening room that booms at the drop of a hat I can live with that.
Ah well, time to start scouring the adverts for a Telefunken valve that isn't going to cost me a kidney. Why are they mostly old in pairs?
Lol! Frank, PM me and I'll do you a nice deal on the Telefunken... It may as well go to a good home :)
Marco.
Lol! Frank, PM me and I'll do you a nice deal on the Telefunken... It may as well go to a good home :)
Marco.
Got any Telefunken E88CCs Marco? I would be interested.
Cheers
Soz, Bazza - ain't got none of them dudes... :)
Marco.
Happy to tell you all that that the YS pre is singing sweetly now with Marco's kind help.
Gone are the Mullard and 2 original 12AX7's and in their place is a Telefunken ECC83 and a pair of TAD 12AX7s.
The treble is now exceptionally clear and detailed just as I like it, the midrange is open and clear, while the bass is detailed, deep and tight. Terrific!
jandl100
30-06-2010, 07:52
I had one of those YSA pre's - unmodded and with remote control. Sounded pretty good with a bit of tube rolling - although I cannot now recall what tubes!
You seem happy now with the Telefunkens, but if you fancy a bit more of a roll, I've been having great success with NOS Amperex ecc88 in my Graaf power amp. Deep taut vibrant bass and a lovely open and detailed sound in the higher freqs.
Must admit though, that with valves I think a lot depends on the circuit that you drop them into.
But that MF F22 pre was a hard act to follow, I'm not that surprised it has been a bit of an uphill struggle!
I had one of those YSA pre's - unmodded and with remote control. Sounded pretty good with a bit of tube rolling - although I cannot now recall what tubes!
You seem happy now with the Telefunkens, but if you fancy a bit more of a roll, I've been having great success with NOS Amperex ecc88 in my Graaf power amp. Deep taut vibrant bass and a lovely open and detailed sound in the higher freqs.
Must admit though, that with valves I think a lot depends on the circuit that you drop them into.
But that MF F22 pre was a hard act to follow, I'm not that surprised it has been a bit of an uphill struggle!
When I first got this pre I was mighty disappointed to say the least Jerry. I couldn't work out initially whether it was the DMS Audio upgrading or the valve compliment that was at fault and it was Marco that saved the day by offering his assortment of valves to try that helped me see the wood from the trees. What threw me initially was the Mullard valve in there because broadly speaking a NOS Mullard is no shabby performer, but when the Telefunken went in, it was a real revelation.
I'm just glad I was able to be of help, Frank. Nothing worse than when yer not happy playing yer choons :)
Marco.
I'm just glad I was able to be of help, Frank. Nothing worse than when yer not happy playing yer choons :)
Marco.
Amen to that! :)
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