View Full Version : I know I shouldn't grumble but...
Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 17:49
...I've got too many nice speakers and can't make my mind up which ones to keep [emoji24]
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celestion is it? is prettiest.
Keep the ones you most like the sound of [emoji846]
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the monitor audio ones remind me of my 952md's.
The problem is that all three are equivalent (or not far off) model from different manufacturers. Why not sell all three and use the money to buy something altogether better?
——-
Thinking about it the TDL (?) transmission lines on the right were probably the most expensive - I’m not personally very keen on transmission line speakers though.
You need to get a pair of big Tannoys Lawrence! :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
23-11-2019, 20:05
The problem is that all three are equivalent (or not far off) models from different manufacturers. Why not sell all three and use the money to buy something altogether better?
Exactly :)
Mikeandvan
23-11-2019, 20:13
And you've got another pair on the way!
walpurgis
23-11-2019, 20:17
And you've got another pair on the way!
Oh. Expecting twins? How nice. :D
Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 20:28
the monitor audio ones remind me of my 952md's.Yes the ones I wanted!!
These are the 1200 Gold which were a bit later.
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Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 20:30
The problem is that all three are equivalent (or not far off) model from different manufacturers. Why not sell all three and use the money to buy something altogether better?
——-
Thinking about it the TDL (?) transmission lines on the right were probably the most expensive - I’m not personally very keen on transmission line speakers though.Actually I think the Celestions were the priciest. I'm leaning towards those but something about the speed and detail of the MAs is stopping me.
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Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 20:30
And you've got another pair on the way!Yes need to get rid of 2 pairs for a final showdown [emoji16]
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hifinutt
23-11-2019, 20:38
Yes every time I see a speaker for sale I see your name !! So I thought you might be collecting a few!
Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 20:48
Yes every time I see a speaker for sale I see your name !! So I thought you might be collecting a few!That must be a slight exaggeration. But I do seem to get through them like... was going to say something about whores and knickers but I'm not sure it works [emoji23]
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dantheman91
23-11-2019, 21:22
Think yourself lucky you don't have 20 pairs and a choice:eek: agreed really tricky Celestion and TDLs my choice
walpurgis
23-11-2019, 21:25
I've only got eight pairs. Some in bits though.
Out of the trio in question, my leaning would be towards the TDL's, as I like transmission lines. But I've not heard any of the three.
Mikeandvan
23-11-2019, 21:33
Yes every time I see a speaker for sale I see your name !! So I thought you might be collecting a few!
May'be he's building a wall of sound?
donmarrese
23-11-2019, 21:48
You need to get a pair of big Tannoys Lawrence! :eyebrows:+1
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Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 22:08
The problem is that all three are equivalent (or not far off) model from different manufacturers. Why not sell all three and use the money to buy something altogether better?
——-
Thinking about it the TDL (?) transmission lines on the right were probably the most expensive - I’m not personally very keen on transmission line speakers though.Because I don't have enough time to do expensive speakers justice so I just want to pick the best pair I can under £500 and recuperate the cost of the others I've tried.
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Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 22:09
You need to get a pair of big Tannoys Lawrence! :eyebrows:I was going to get some but Al beat me to them [emoji24]
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I was going to get some but Al beat me to them [emoji24]
Try these for size Lawrence! :lol:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Kingdom-Royal-Carbon-black/293307642056?hash=item444a7f70c8:g:7CAAAOSwQhNdLeT d
Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 22:28
Try these for size Lawrence! [emoji38]
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Kingdom-Royal-Carbon-black/293307642056?hash=item444a7f70c8:g:7CAAAOSwQhNdLeT dYeah I'll get them, thanks for the tip Edward. They'll work fine tight in the corners firing across the short width of the room won't they?
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hifinutt
23-11-2019, 22:40
beautiful , they come from the same guys i got my tannoys from
Yeah I'll get them, thanks for the tip Edward. They'll work fine tight in the corners firing across the short width of the room won't they?
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Just joshing Lawrence. Knowing your room something smaller will work better. Actually a mate is seriously thinking of getting the Kingdoms. He has got stuff from David Wood before and knows that the Kingdoms will be minty. He is just finishing off building a listening room (massive) so the kingdoms will work fine. But it's a lot of money ....
I'll bring round the Eatons to your place for a listen some day. It will be a marmite experience - you will either love or hate them.
Lawrence001
23-11-2019, 23:09
Just joshing Lawrence. Knowing your room something smaller will work better. Actually a mate is seriously thinking of getting the Kingdoms. He has got stuff from David Wood before and knows that the Kingdoms will be minty. He is just finishing off building a listening room (massive) so the kingdoms will work fine. But it's a lot of money ....
I'll bring round the Eatons to your place for a listen some day. It will be a marmite experience - you will either love or hate them.I suspected you weren't being serious.
In the meanwhile, I think I've made my mind up, and the winner is...
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Lawrence001
24-11-2019, 09:57
The Celestions.
Actually that was a shoot out with the MAs I haven't actually used the TDLs for a couple of weeks. I'd kind of moved on from them in my head. Not sure why really...
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Yeah I'll get them, thanks for the tip Edward. They'll work fine tight in the corners firing across the short width of the room won't they?
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:lol: Do like a bit of Sas
Because I don't have enough time to do expensive speakers justice so I just want to pick the best pair I can under £500 and recuperate the cost of the others I've tried.
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Oh, okay - I’m afraid none of those would be on such a shortlist if I were in your shoes though.
Lawrence001
24-11-2019, 14:28
Oh, okay - I’m afraid none of those would be on such a shortlist if I were in your shoes though.What 3 or 4 would be on yours? Preferably in the £2-300 range rather than all at £499+ [emoji16]
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Don't know if you like standmount speakers Lawrence ?, but something like the old AR 18 s can still cut the mustard. I bought a pair earlier this year and since then I've enjoyed immeasurable listening pleasure
from these modest looking little gems All for a 100 squid :).
Mike Reed
24-11-2019, 17:58
They were short of a speaker in the H of C. until recently. :lol: I really don't know how/why people can collect so many of these not so tiny transducers, nor make a definitive choice as to which has the best synergy with their amplification etc. I hate kit lying about not being used. My friend has lots of kit; some quite upmarket, with systems in almost every room in his 3 bed house. He lives alone and rarely has visitors, so it's not as if this kit is used at all.
I have a lot of "upmarket" kit lying around, unused. I keep it as back up, as I can't bear to be without music. There are two systems in my house: the main one and a second for AV duties.
There are others here with a lot of gear listed in their signature.
Lawrence001
24-11-2019, 18:30
They were short of a speaker in the H of C. until recently. [emoji38] I really don't know how/why people can collect so many of these not so tiny transducers, nor make a definitive choice as to which has the best synergy with their amplification etc. I hate kit lying about not being used. My friend has lots of kit; some quite upmarket, with systems in almost every room in his 3 bed house. He lives alone and rarely has visitors, so it's not as if this kit is used at all.I only tend to keep a pair of speakers for a few weeks unless it's a "keeper". Which is currently defined as one I keep for 3-6 months [emoji38] but one lives in hope of a genuine pair of keepers. Which is possibly going to be the A2s or Ref Model 2s. But I've said such things before...
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Oh, okay - I’m afraid none of those would be on such a shortlist if I were in your shoes though.
In reply tot the post to which this was a reply;
The amount of time available for listening surely is not a factor, however big or small that may be, what matters is the quality of experience when you re listening.
They were short of a speaker in the H of C. until recently. :lol: I really don't know how/why people can collect so many of these not so tiny transducers, nor make a definitive choice as to which has the best synergy with their amplification etc. I hate kit lying about not being used. My friend has lots of kit; some quite upmarket, with systems in almost every room in his 3 bed house. He lives alone and rarely has visitors, so it's not as if this kit is used at all.
That is a stance I cannot understand, I would, especially as I am living alone, want one best possible system - with no other person to consider the needs of.
Lawrence001
24-11-2019, 22:25
In reply tot the post to which this was a reply;
The amount of time available for listening surely is not a factor, however big or small that may be, what matters is the quality of experience when you re listening.Well if you have young children and work full time you don't have much time left to do any listening, and when you do it tends to be after 10pm at a low volume. So I'm not going to spend thousands when that's all the use they get. Saving for a replacement for my leaky asbestos garage, or a loft conversion so my son doesn't have a tiny box room for a bedroom when he gets older, has to take precedence.
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Lawrence001
25-11-2019, 17:37
Monitor Audios sold, bids on the TDLs on eBay, now to shift these standmounts...
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Mike Reed
25-11-2019, 20:15
That is a stance I cannot understand, I would, especially as I am living alone, want one best possible system
My stance or my friend's, Dennis? we both have top-notch main systems, but whereas I have a very modest office and kitchen system (tuner based only), he has CDPs, Epos + other speakers, Nait 1 and 2, 01 tuners and the like in a bedroom which is never occupied. as well as his bedroom, office and kitchen; oh, yes, quite a dandy outfit in his dining room too. He lives alone. Of course, his Naim stuff has actually appreciated. If anything goes in my main system, I'm snookered.
Well if you have young children and work full time you don't have much time left to do any listening, and when you do it tends to be after 10pm at a low volume. So I'm not going to spend thousands when that's all the use they get, saving for a replacement for my leaky asbestos garage, or a loft conversion so my son doesn't have a tiny box room for a bedroom when he gets older, has to take precedence.
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I still do not understand because if something one values is rarer, then surely we want to maximise the experience.
I of course respect your concern and care for your son.
My stance or my friend's, Dennis? we both have top-notch main systems, but whereas I have a very modest office and kitchen system (tuner based only), he has CDPs, Epos + other speakers, Nait 1 and 2, 01 tuners and the like in a bedroom which is never occupied. as well as his bedroom, office and kitchen; oh, yes, quite a dandy outfit in his dining room too. He lives alone. Of course, his Naim stuff has actually appreciated. If anything goes in my main system, I'm snookered.
Sorry, ,brief and ambiguous, personally I regard music as a high quality and dedicated experience, rather than a side show to other events, and hence I devote dedicated time to it and maximise that experience.
Spreading resources must necessarily compromise the quality of a system, and hence the experience.
In reply tot the post to which this was a reply;
The amount of time available for listening surely is not a factor, however big or small that may be, what matters is the quality of experience when you re listening.
Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense (I mean I cannot make head nor tail of it) to me and even less when referenced to my quote. In fact the whole premise of the thread makes no sense to me. You start by showing three speakers and bemoan that you can’t pick your favourite - I suggest you sell all three and buy a more expensive, but altogether better, speaker with the money made from selling the three pairs of speakers. Then you respond by saying you want the best speakers for £500.00 - well that doesn’t make sense because if you sold all three you would have more than £500. My subsequent comment was that even if one were limited to £500 then the three you show wouldn’t be on my shortlist - in other words, sell them and buy a better £500 speaker and pocket the rest of the money made.
jandl100
26-11-2019, 13:27
:wierdthread:
Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense (I mean I cannot make head nor tail of it) to me and even less when referenced to my quote. In fact the whole premise of the thread makes no sense to me. You start by showing three speakers and bemoan that you can’t pick your favourite - I suggest you sell all three and buy a more expensive, but altogether better, speaker with the money made from selling the three pairs of speakers. Then you respond by saying you want the best speakers for £500.00 - well that doesn’t make sense because if you sold all three you would have more than £500. My subsequent comment was that even if one were limited to £500 then the three you show wouldn’t be on my shortlist - in other words, sell them and buy a better £500 speaker and pocket the rest of the money made.
Now THAT does make sense :)
Mark it is Lawrence who was deliberating on which speaker to stay with, but your post #41 to Pharos suggest that Pharos who was doing the deliberations. :)
Lawrence001
26-11-2019, 19:16
:wierdthread:It has taken a rather surreal turn. I started a light hearted thread about the difficulty of choosing which pair of speakers one should keep when trying quite different ones out. It turns out some members of the forum believe that one should never have more than one pair of speakers in the house at any time as you should just spend the total cost of them all on one better pair. (Though how you would determine which one was the best without trying them first and comparing them is beyond me).
Furthermore, if one infers that argument holds for any other link in the hifi chain, then we should only have one of each component in our house at any time. I wonder how many other members of the forum adhere strictly to this rule [emoji38]
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Lawrence001
26-11-2019, 19:18
Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense (I mean I cannot make head nor tail of it) to me and even less when referenced to my quote. In fact the whole premise of the thread makes no sense to me. You start by showing three speakers and bemoan that you can’t pick your favourite - I suggest you sell all three and buy a more expensive, but altogether better, speaker with the money made from selling the three pairs of speakers. Then you respond by saying you want the best speakers for £500.00 - well that doesn’t make sense because if you sold all three you would have more than £500. My subsequent comment was that even if one were limited to £500 then the three you show wouldn’t be on my shortlist - in other words, sell them and buy a better £500 speaker and pocket the rest of the money made.I did ask you earlier which ones would be on your list but you didn't say.
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montesquieu
26-11-2019, 19:29
No harm in trying lots of approaches Lawrence, it's the best way to get a feel for what works for you..
Having said that, I do think the 'flog the lot and up the budget' approach has something in it. As did the Eatons recommendation. Or at least dual concentric Tannoys of some description.
Has acid been slipped into our drinking water?
I'm not criticising anyone, but rather expressing my lack of understanding at not using resources to maximise one system, for the best possible quality.
Lawrence001
26-11-2019, 22:30
Thanks Tom the issue is I need the money in the long run for something else more important, especially given the amount of time I get to listen to music with my busy life. So if I can spare the funds for now to try a few options rather than have it sitting in the bank I might as well get some fun out of it.
I don't buy the argument that the less time I have to listen the more I should spend to enjoy that time the more. By that logic if I only had 5 minutes a week to listen I'd be spending about £20k on the speakers [emoji23]
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It has taken a rather surreal turn. I started a light hearted thread about the difficulty of choosing which pair of speakers one should keep when trying quite different ones out. It turns out some members of the forum believe that one should never have more than one pair of speakers in the house at any time as you should just spend the total cost of them all on one better pair. (Though how you would determine which one was the best without trying them first and comparing them is beyond me).
Furthermore, if one infers that argument holds for any other link in the hifi chain, then we should only have one of each component in our house at any time. I wonder how many other members of the forum adhere strictly to this rule [emoji38]
Sent from my POT-LX1 using TapatalkI've still got loads In My spare room, and I got rid of 3 sets recently. Damn things Breed.
Gonna have to do summat some day lol.
Yes u could sell the 3 and start again if you are not attached to any especially.
Alas I don't know there value.
But if say their combined value is 500 or so u should get something nice with change.
If your handy you could build some full range ones
Reduce the time to 3 minutes and you will be able to afford the Kingdoms I mentioned. :lol: :)
Hope you still have the TDLs when I'm next over. Or perhaps you sold them already?
Lawrence001
27-11-2019, 09:24
Reduce the time to 3 minutes and you will be able to afford the Kingdoms I mentioned. [emoji38] :)
Hope you still have the TDLs when I'm next over. Or perhaps you sold them already?They've got bids on eBay so won't be around too long I imagine. I should have compared them to the Celestions first but been too busy.
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I could be tempted to part with my 952’s if that helps :D
Thanks Tom the issue is I need the money in the long run for something else more important, especially given the amount of time I get to listen to music with my busy life. So if I can spare the funds for now to try a few options rather than have it sitting in the bank I might as well get some fun out of it.
I don't buy the argument that the less time I have to listen the more I should spend to enjoy that time the more. By that logic if I only had 5 minutes a week to listen I'd be spending about £20k on the speakers [emoji23]
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I have not presented such an argument, but have stated that only a small amount of time available for listening is not necessarily an implicit reason to spend little on a system.
As the time tends towards zero, then of course one may assume that the time is becoming a negligible part of life, and so a requirement for a good system may be deemed to approach zero.
But it may also be that as something highly valuable becomes more scarce, then to maximise that, there may be a requirement for the best quality to do so, and this may be a reason to spend maximally.
The two arguments may cancel.
That is a bit like the definition of an expert: someone who concentrates on studying an increasingly narrow field of enquiry, so that in the end the expert "knows everything there is to know about nothing at all"!.
walpurgis
27-11-2019, 10:46
Not a great believer in experts. One can be 'an authority' on a subject and have very good knowledge and even have the papers to back this. But many so called experts are far from being expert at anything. I can think of a couple or more, but not naming names. In any case, nobody knows everything about anything.
hornucopia
27-11-2019, 11:46
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?66849-Reiver-Acoustics-Millburn-MK-ii
I was going to suggest looking at these, but a little above the £500. But worth more of course.
Lawrence001
27-11-2019, 11:57
Not a great believer in experts. One can be 'an authority' on a subject and have very good knowledge and even have the papers to back this. Many so called experts are far from being expert at anything. I can think of a couple or more, but not naming names. In any case, nobody knows everything about anything.Actually if you invent your own new subject and make an industry out of it you can probably claim to know everything even if you just make it up as you go along. Diversity training courses spring to mind.
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Lawrence001
27-11-2019, 11:59
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?66849-Reiver-Acoustics-Millburn-MK-ii
I was going to suggest looking at these, but a little above the £500. But worth more of course.Thanks for the suggestion Chris I did in fact look at those but would have preferred a horn loaded rear. All a matter of personal taste of course.
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Lawrence001
27-11-2019, 12:01
I have not presented such an argument, but have stated that only a small amount of time available for listening is not necessarily an implicit reason to spend little on a system.
As the time tends towards zero, then of course one may assume that the time is becoming a negligible part of life, and so a requirement for a good system may be deemed to approach zero.
But it may also be that as something highly valuable becomes more scarce, then to maximise that, there may be a requirement for the best quality to do so, and this may be a reason to spend maximally.
The two arguments may cancel.Of course, I was just being flippant. I get the point but the fact is at about £500 I've already maxed out the budget from a cost/benefit, diminishing marginal utility etc type argument.
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hornucopia
27-11-2019, 12:42
The last thing you need is a string of folk telling you their favourite speakers! I'd think you may already have a list -AND years of experience.
AS my 'monicker' suggests, I'm with you on Horn loading, though Klipsches a bit beyond budget.
That is a bit like the definition of an expert: someone who concentrates on studying an increasingly narrow field of enquiry, so that in the end the expert "knows everything there is to know about nothing at all"!.
Something in me also thought of it as parallel to waiting for a long time for a bus.
They are due every 15 mins, but you've been waiting for an hour and a half, and so ask yourself;
"Does this mean no buses are ever coming due to some catastrophe, or does it mean that as soon as I decide to walk, five minutes later numerous buses will come past me.?"
montesquieu
27-11-2019, 23:02
Not a great believer in experts. One can be 'an authority' on a subject and have very good knowledge and even have the papers to back this. But many so called experts are far from being expert at anything. I can think of a couple or more, but not naming names. In any case, nobody knows everything about anything.
In my days as daily newspaper sub-editor, the great sage in the corner who read absolutely at everything before it went to downstairs to print had a saying that got drummed into us young chaps (all all chaps, we were, back then):
'There are no such things as experts, only specialists'. In his world, calling someone an 'expert' was a value judgment. Calling someone a 'specialist' - if indeed that's what they were - was reporting a matter of fact, and but more to the point, expressed no particular judgment as to their actual level of expertise.
Even 30-odd years later, I find it hard to type the word 'expert' without feeling a hand on my shoulder, a tall chap bearded behind me about to instruct me in proper usage.
Lawrence001
28-11-2019, 07:46
I could be tempted to part with my 952’s if that helps :DI thought we discussed these a while ago but you sold them to someone else?
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In my days as daily newspaper sub-editor, the great sage in the corner who read absolutely at everything before it went to downstairs to print had a saying that got drummed into us young chaps (all all chaps, we were, back then):
'There are no such things as experts, only specialists'. In his world, calling someone an 'expert' was a value judgment. Calling someone a 'specialist' - if indeed that's what they were - was reporting a matter of fact, and but more to the point, expressed no particular judgment as to their actual level of expertise.
Even 30-odd years later, I find it hard to type the word 'expert' without feeling a hand on my shoulder, a tall chap bearded behind me about to instruct me in proper usage.
So was it an expert or specialist who wrote the headline it was the SUN wot won it ! :lol:
From the Lab of the Government Chemist, '75;
"An expert is a drip under pressure."
Mike Reed
28-11-2019, 15:12
So much for Expert Stylus Company, then. Should be re-named 'Specialist Stylus Company'. Having written this in jest, I actually think it sounds better !
An expert is someone who has comprehensive and authoritative knowledge or skill in a subject area. A specialist is very similar (highly skilled etc.) but more in concentrating on a narrow field or activity. The descriptions sound as if there's a distinct difference but not so linguistically, it appears.
montesquieu
28-11-2019, 16:57
So was it an expert or specialist who wrote the headline it was the SUN wot won it ! :lol:
I never worked on the staff of The Sun (mainly working on broadsheets) but I did shifts there on occasion, quite regularly at one point in the 90s when I moved back to the UK from New Zealand and didn't have a staff job at the time. Also did shift work on The Star, the Daily Express, The Mirror and The People around that time as well as Times, Sunday Times, the Herald, The Scotsman and the Edinburgh Evening News. (In the 80s I worked on the Daily Record and Sunday Mail in Glasgow).
The fact is that The Sun's editors were (and probably still are) legendary among their peers as unquestionably the best in the business. Subbing 1500 words of wire copy of some complicated civil court case down to half or a third of that was hard enough on the broadsheets, but it takes a huge amount of skill to convincingly condense it down to 3-4 paragraphs, approx 12-15 word first para, 15-20 word for subsequent paras, with a heading three or four lines of five or six characters. Try it sometime and you might get an appreciation of what it takes.
I never worked on the staff of The Sun (mainly working on broadsheets) but I did shifts there on occasion, quite regularly at one point in the 90s when I moved back to the UK from New Zealand and didn't have a staff job at the time. Also did shift work on The Star, the Daily Express, The Mirror and The People around that time as well as Times, Sunday Times, the Herald, The Scotsman and the Edinburgh Evening News. (In the 80s I worked on the Daily Record and Sunday Mail in Glasgow).
The fact is that The Sun's editors were (and probably still are) legendary among their peers as unquestionably the best in the business. Subbing 1500 words of wire copy of some complicated civil court case down to half or a third of that was hard enough on the broadsheets, but it takes a huge amount of skill to convincingly condense it down to 3-4 paragraphs, approx 12-15 word first para, 15-20 word for subsequent paras, with a heading three or four lines of five or six characters. Try it sometime and you might get an appreciation of what it takes.
Yes ,it was just a lighthearted comment said in jest. Although not a lover of the sun newspaper I m always quite impressed with that Trevor Kavanagh guy when he appears on the airwaves.
I m a big admirer of the newspaper industry in general.
always made a good substitute for toilet paper did sun. certainly had a similar content when used;)
Pigmy Pony
28-11-2019, 21:12
always made a good substitute for toilet paper did sun. certainly had a similar content when used;)
Did you ever try to give the page 3 girl a bit of extra fake tan? :D
I read somewhere (probably apocryphal) that the guidelines for writers for the Sun were as follows:
Try to avoid using words having more than three syllables
Try to avoid having more than five words in a sentence
Try to avoid having more than seven sentences in a paragraph.
montesquieu
28-11-2019, 23:13
I read somewhere (probably apocryphal) that the guidelines for writers for the Sun were as follows:
Try to avoid using words having more than three syllables
Try to avoid having more than five words in a sentence
Try to avoid having more than seven sentences in a paragraph.
The rule on most newspapers (even broadsheets) is to use short words and simple sentences where possible, but five words a sentence wouldn't be practical in anything other than a haiku.
On The Sun as well as most tabloids it's normally one sentence per paragraph, very short first paragraph. So 12-15 words first par, 15-20 words subsequent paragraphs.
No more than seven sentences in a paragraph is about right for a long form book. On a tabloid news story (as opposed to something on the features pages) seven sentences might be a sensible maximum for the whole piece.
I did say it was probably apocryphal. The 3-5-7 rule seemed to be a bit too convenient, despite being memorable.
Haiku in the Sun?
Now that's a strange idea
To amuse readers.
Mike Reed
29-11-2019, 16:14
I wasn't aware of a word or sentence formula in anything. A sentence represents a different thought or aspect on the subject being discussed. A paragraph denotes a completely different subject area within the overriding theme or topic.
I only read one newspaper, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that (a) the writers are not fully educated in their supposed skill, and/or (b) nobody reads anything before it's published (proof-reading).
The election material hitting the doormat at increasing intervals nowadays suffers from either too many (erroneous) capital letters, poor syntax, starting sentences with a conjunction, poor punctuation or even missing words. I've given up red-inking this stuff nowadays, and no party is better than another. There's been an appalling degradation of written English over the past few decades, but it's not difficult to point the finger.
I received a 4 page newsletter today from the Labour Party. At least I thought it was, because the whole front page background was in red. It was actually from the Tories, so obviously colour blindness is an issue as well.:lol:
walpurgis
29-11-2019, 16:33
Many use only text speak as their written communication now.
montesquieu
29-11-2019, 16:39
I wasn't aware of a word or sentence formula in anything. A sentence represents a different thought or aspect on the subject being discussed. A paragraph denotes a completely different subject area within the overriding theme or topic.
I only read one newspaper, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that (a) the writers are not fully educated in their supposed skill, and/or (b) nobody reads anything before it's published (proof-reading).
The election material hitting the doormat at increasing intervals nowadays suffers from either too many (erroneous) capital letters, poor syntax, starting sentences with a conjunction, poor punctuation or even missing words. I've given up red-inking this stuff nowadays, and no party is better than another. There's been an appalling degradation of written English over the past few decades, but it's not difficult to point the finger.
I received a 4 page newsletter today from the Labour Party. At least I thought it was, because the whole front page background was in red. It was actually from the Tories, so obviously colour blindness is an issue as well.:lol:
As someone who worked as a sub-editor for over 10 years (though not for the last 25 or so) I can say that most writers including big name ones are pretty poor on stuff like grammar, syntax, usage ... what a lot of reporters do have is the ability to go out, talk to people and get a story back. That and writing are not the same skill. Sub-editors save writers from looking ridiculous, day in, day out.
Unfortunately the sub-editing function has been severely hit by spending cuts. An example - when I worked on the Daily Record in Glasgow it sold 800,000 copies a day and commanded sky high advertising rates. It now sells about 150,000 on average and rates have fallen through the floor. It also employs about 20% of the editorial staff that it used to employ. This has hit quality drastically as many of the cuts were made on the various subs' desks.
Combine that with the fact that pay has fallen pretty hard - a senior journalist now gets less than I was earning in the early 90s. Not in 'real terms' ie adjusted for inflation, but in actual pound notes - and the fact that the young people who can afford to work for these kind of salaries are so poorly educated in the basics of English these days, and you get ever-falling standards of English.
There are additional factors relating to the online world: not only are people are simply less careful when writing for online consumption, but many newspapers divert staff to censorship duty - making sure nothing untoward appears below the line in the comments section - that would once have been devoted to making sure standards in the actual paper were up to snuff.
Sub-editing is not proof-reading BTW. Subs at least in the old days spent a long time re-writing copy and creating snappy headlines. That has given way to much lighter-touch on-screen editing. Proof reading happens once the page is already typeset, ie already a proof.
As for sentences and paragraphs - a news story isn't a school essay and paragraphs don't work that way in newspapers, in the tabloids particularly. What's most important there is the use of space, to assist in readability and clarity, rather than observing strict ideas about what a paragraph should and shoudn't be.
many use only text speak as their written communication now.
smh nvm lmk @teotd 2mor:d
I thought we discussed these a while ago but you sold them to someone else?
Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk
we did,the pair i have now are a different pair.
I did say it was probably apocryphal. The 3-5-7 rule seemed to be a bit too convenient, despite being memorable.
Haiku in the Sun?
Now that's a strange idea
To amuse readers.
Truth in the sun?
Now that’s a strange idea
To the 96
Mike Reed
29-11-2019, 21:27
As for sentences and paragraphs - a news story isn't a school essay and paragraphs don't work that way in newspapers, in the tabloids particularly. What's most important there is the use of space, to assist in readability and clarity, rather than observing strict ideas about what a paragraph should and shoudn't be.
No idea about the (sensational) tabloids, Tom, but the Times, D.T. and probably Grauniad should uphold some standards. The D.T. (is this the only broadsheet now?) has really let standards slip, but in all fairness, there's a heck of a lot of news etc. which is covered daily. Relying on spellcheck (or the Fleet St. equivalent) has obviated the need for good old proof-reading, it seems. However, it hasn't at all.
An old acquaintance, who later became editor of the Mirror, was quite fastidious about language, though he did say that it was more difficult for his journalists to dumb down reportage to suit the readership than it was for those for more upmarket newspapers.
montesquieu
29-11-2019, 22:10
No idea about the (sensational) tabloids, Tom, but the Times, D.T. and probably Grauniad should uphold some standards. The D.T. (is this the only broadsheet now?) has really let standards slip, but in all fairness, there's a heck of a lot of news etc. which is covered daily. Relying on spellcheck (or the Fleet St. equivalent) has obviated the need for good old proof-reading, it seems. However, it hasn't at all.
An old acquaintance, who later became editor of the Mirror, was quite fastidious about language, though he did say that it was more difficult for his journalists to dumb down reportage to suit the readership than it was for those for more upmarket newspapers.
Standards have certainly fallen across the board, I agree, since the 80s, for the reasons I mentioned above. Back then there were armies of people and limited space. There are now rather fewer people (or at least, fewer paid people) and acres of space to fill in what is now a 24h news cycle. Whether this has made us better or worse off I'm not sure - it does seem that the airwaves are far more crowded by people who have an agenda to push. There used to be far more skepticism in the media of this sort of spin but now of course the journalists join in - The Guardian in particular descends into what looks like self-parody most days now.
I have to say I would be very surprised to find an editor or former editor of The Mirror disparaging his title and his readers like that, using a phrase like dumbing down. I personally was happier as a broadsheet guy but that was partly for an easier life. In my experience it's far harder to turn out a quality tabloid than it is a broadsheet - it has to be far more snappily written, tighter, with more humour, less waffle and a far higher degree of creativity and variation from day to day.
People like to be proud of where they work and the degree of craft in the tabloids is something to be admired. If course this may not be understood by all, especially people whose instinct is snobbishness and who don't have the capacity to appreciate the skill involved.
My father was 27 years working for what was (then) the Mirror Group, though he started his career at the Daily Express back in the early 60s, when the Express was a major force in the news marketplace. Post music degree (which was fun but not exactly great for job prospects when I graduated at the height of the Thatcher recession in 1982) I followed him into journalism, before (it's a long story) moving into publishing systems and subsequently a very different career in IT and (post MBA) management consultancy. But I can tell you now nothing I ever did in my subsequent career as a whiteboard jockey or writer of corporate strategy reports was as mentally tough as my casual subbing shifts on The Sun.
Lawrence001
30-11-2019, 08:16
we did,the pair i have now are a different pair.You could PM me a price, there's the logistical problems as well though.
Mike Reed
30-11-2019, 13:11
Hi Tom,
I've just fished out Richard's book 'Dogs and Lampposts' (2002) and didn't realise he's been Mirror editor twice as well as editor of the People and Today. Quite a career. I knew him best in the mid/later sixties when I used to pop round to his girlfriend's (Penny) flat for breakfast on occasion. He always called me Beard. Went to his amazing wedding (seventies?) where Dave Allen and the Searles brothers were guests among many journalists et al. Lost touch (my fault) sometime in the eighties. Still have his funeral invitation somewhere. He was always somewhat acerbic but obviously ambitious.
Pah....amateur :D
Any less than 5 pairs and the house feels empty.
hornucopia
07-12-2019, 13:28
Got me counting........yes,5. The PAWOs fell over onto the whizzer 'bullet' and broke them so threw them out.I'd made them from off-cuts of house cladding.
Ocella Calliope Grandis Silver Signatures. Zigmahornets by iMac (currently playing John Hiatt 'Live at Newport'*). Wharfedale 3090s via Blu-ray/Kuro.Mini Sandwiches on wardrobe via iDecco.
Original Sandwiches stored away.
*unlisted Ry Cooder appears on 2 tracks!
Lawrence, you haven’t mentioned anything more about those interesting looking stand mounts ? They look very beautifully finished
Lawrence001
08-12-2019, 11:13
Lawrence, you haven’t mentioned anything more about those interesting looking stand mounts ? They look very beautifully finishedThey're Mistral Bow speakers, a JV between a Chinese and a Western company. They were very nice, had a full bodied British kind of sound which I think the ABR at the back helped with. Considering the active driver was a 5" they were unbelievable really.
Someone bought them yesterday. I would have liked to keep them really but I just haven't got the room.
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