A totally new British amplifier.. A challenge?

[The Black Adder]

Hi all.

This has been a question I've been thinking about for some time. In these days of china manufacturing almost everything is it still possible to make an amplifier which is constructed from components made and sourced in the UK.

I guess this could be a challenge for someone but if it was to be a challenge NOS materials would be accepted.

From the smallest component to the case work it would all have to be from and made in the UK.

So, is this possible? If so, what kind of quality would it reach in the grand scheme of things?

What are the main problematic areas one would face?




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[Light Dependant Resistor]

That's a great challenge, but could get complex as to exactly what is a British manufacturer

Would Zetex for instance to supply the transistors, qualify ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zetex_Semiconductors

As they are UK based but were acquired by Diodes incorporated Dallas USA in 2008
but have a listing on the London Stock Exchange.

[Jimbo]

Designed and assembled in Britain would be a good start?

[Bigman80]

Hi all.

This has been a question I've been thinking about for some time. In these days of china manufacturing almost everything is it still possible to make an amplifier which is constructed from components made and sourced in the UK.

I guess this could be a challenge for someone but if it was to be a challenge NOS materials would be accepted.

From the smallest component to the case work it would all have to be from and made in the UK.

So, is this possible? If so, what kind of quality would it reach in the grand scheme of things?

What are the main problematic areas one would face?




Sent from my BBC Microcomputer 32KEverything you need for an amplifier is already available in the UK and made by British companies.

The biggest issue they face, or that amp builder face, is the fact China can do it so mucv cheaper than we can. Including postage.

Most likely because the chinese companys don't pay a living wage but also as important is the fact most British made items Include a high premium for being..... British made.

I recently went to buy an insert Stove. The company that designs them is in Dudley. The design them, get them fabricated of site and then assemble them back in Dudley.

The stove is £700.

I went to a fireplace shop the other days to pick a new fireplace and the guy won't install our stove because it's "made in China". I explained, he didn't care.

Instead he offered us a British one of exactly the same spec. The price.... £1400. Yes, double.

Why anyone would buy British for the fact its British is beyond me.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Sugden appear as at least one remaining, entirely British based manufacturer of amplifiers.

https://www.sugdenaudio.com/current

[The Black Adder]

Okay, interesting.

I guess a caveat would be that it would need to be designed and assembled here too.

I guess there is quite a lot of confusion to what is made in the UK and assembled in the UK.

Do sugden use components made in China?

Also, price wise I guess that would be another interesting factor but for this it's not important. The question is can it be done?

As for bought out companies. I'd not include them at them moment.

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[YNWaN]

Nobody makes an electronic component that is absolutely 100% manufactured in the UK. The biggest single stumbling blocks are the electronic components and I very much doubt it is even possible to source every component from a UK manufacturer (and certainly not a UK owned and UK based manufacturer).

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Okay, interesting.

I guess a caveat would be that it would need to be designed and assembled here too.

I guess there is quite a lot of confusion to what is made in the UK and assembled in the UK.

Do sugden use components made in China?

Also, price wise I guess that would be another interesting factor but for this it's not important. The question is can it be done?

As for bought out companies. I'd not include them at them moment.

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Hi Josie
I have written to Sugden to hopefully reply directly to the forum- if they meet the challenge.
I will relay what they say, if their reply is instead direct to me.

Cheers / Chris

[The Black Adder]

Nobody makes an electronic component that is absolutely 100% manufactured in the UK. The biggest single stumbling blocks are the electronic components and I very much doubt it is even possible to source every component from a UK manufacturer (and certainly not a UK owned and UK based manufacturer).I agree in regards to base materials, some materials are only found in certain parts of the globe.

But surely they manufacture parts here? And are proud to do so too? For example, charcroft, claritycap...?


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[Mr. C]

A few of us have been doing this for quite a while now, I can think of three other small outlet manufacturers that designs and construct in this country using as many of the home grown parts as they can. These are very niche companies but have a small dedicated following, never going to make it as a large player, but then they do not wish to I suspect.

Difficult when it comes to caps and really decent FET's, etc and quality casework that is produced in the UK at a price that the majority buying public would wish to pay.

With our own amplifiers, around 45% is British manufactured components the reason so many amps (who's ever badge is on them) are Chinese manufactured simply do to cost and potential profit margins.

Its a balance of running a business and keeping potential customer happy, not an easy task

[anthonyTD]

Hi Josie,
As others have said, its very difficult to find components manufactured in the UK, but its very posible to manufacture a completed product with everything sourced in and from the UK, and its something i have always Believed in since i started producing Amplifiers over 20 years ago now. Cost play's a big part in being able to make products competetive, however; that has never bothered me, for me the finnished product costs what it does, because of what's gone into making it, and the ethics behind the whole process.
I hope this helps.
A...
I agree in regards to base materials, some materials are only found in certain parts of the globe.

But surely they manufacture parts here? And are proud to do so too? For example, charcroft, claritycap...?


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[hifi_dave]

Rega manufacture everything in the UK right down to the packaging. Of course not every component is UK, I think that would be impossible nowadays but all assembled in Southend.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Josie,
As others have said, its very difficult to find components manufactured in the UK, but its very posible to manufacture a completed product with everything sourced from the UK, and its something i have always Believed in since i started producing Amplifiers over 20 years ago now. Cost play's a big part in being able to make products competetive, however; that has never bothered me, for me the finnished product costs what it does, because of what's gone into it, and the ethics behind the whole process.
A...Hi Anthony.

Indeed. It was just interesting to know if Britain could still make a truly home grown unit.

I guess it was when I was looking through some old valves. Most are mullard and I also found some mullard tropical fish caps.

So I wondered if there are still enough resources around in the UK to build an amplifier.

I'm not looking for one, just thought it would be interesting... Lol

Love my copper.


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[Barry]

I believe resistors and semiconductors are still manufactured in the UK, but the companies involved are not necessarily UK owned.

I'm not sure if any capacitors are made in the UK.

[The Black Adder]

A few of us have been doing this for quite a while now, I can think of three other small outlet manufacturers that designs and construct in this country using as many of the home grown parts as they can. These are very niche companies but have a small dedicated following, never going to make it as a large player, but then they do not wish to I suspect.

Difficult when it comes to caps and really decent FET's, etc and quality casework that is produced in the UK at a price that the majority buying public would wish to pay.

With our own amplifiers, around 45% is British manufactured components the reason so many amps (who's ever badge is on them) are Chinese manufactured simply do to cost and potential profit margins.

Its a balance of running a business and keeping potential customer happy, not an easy taskThat's interesting... I didn't know that.

You see, independently made components made by individuals rather than companies is another interesting point.

I'm sure there are guys out there who can make stuff.

But when I was making my crossovers I couldn't find anyone to make me coils or resistors so even though I tried to source 100% everything from the UK it wasn't possible.

I guess it's who you know. [emoji636]

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[The Black Adder]

I believe resistors and semiconductors are still manufactured in the UK, but the companies involved are not necessarily UK owned.

I'm not sure if any capacitors are made in the UK.I think Claritycap are make in the UK.

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[Barry]

I think Claritycap are make in the UK.

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Yes, you are correct. But are they UK owned? It's difficult to tell from their website.

[The Black Adder]

Yes, you are correct. But are they UK owned? It's difficult to tell from their website.Hmm.. True. I've no idea. Maybe someone here knows?

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[struth]

if it were im sure they'd boast about it..

[Jimbo]

We already have a company that designs and manufactures an amplifier in Britain, in fact he has a whole range and his business is entirely based in the UK.

CROFT.:D

[hifi_dave]

But not all components are UK made as per the OP.

[walpurgis]

Has there ever been an all British amplifier?

[Jimbo]

But not all components are UK made as per the OP.

It will be a tough challenge to manufacture from all UK components especially at a price that was commercially viable.

[Barry]

The question is not only whether the design and manufacture is made in the UK, but if the components used are also manufactured in the UK. And that would include valves as well as semiconductors.

DNM design their amps (and capacitor and cables) in the UK, but I think they are made in Switzerland.

Naim products are, I believe, still made in the UK, but the semiconductors are sourced outside the UK.

[hifi_dave]

It will be a tough challenge to manufacture from all UK components especially at a price that was commercially viable.

Exactly but that was the original question.

There are some companies who design and build in the UK but they have to use some components from abroad, such as Rega, Croft, EAR.

[Barry]

Has there ever been an all British amplifier?

I have a Sugden C51 preamp, and all the components look to be UK made: Colvern potentiometers; Mullard capacitors; Ferranti semiconductors; Bulgin mains connectors. The resistors are uncertain, as are the RCA and DIN connectors.

[Puffin]

You can make your own amp here in the UK. You can use LM3886 or LM3875 from Texas Instruments. Most of the amps made with these chips use the stock TI schematic and values. However as the name suggests these chips are from Dallas, Texas:eek:. You can source all the required components (of which there are few) from a reliable supplier like Farnell etc and (hopefully) you will not get any fakes. They sound far far better than the cost of the parts would suggest. There have been many manufacturers that have used these in their amps. There are some that shy away from DIY perhaps due to the "oh they can't be as good as a well designed professionally made amp.....can they" school, or that they can look like the back end of a bus if not cased nicely.

If the chip company has done the hard work of making a circuit that is stable the other bits that can be tweaked are for window dressing.

[Mr. C]

This is the point, there will always be a parts (s) that you will not be able to source from the UK, yes you could have it made (we wind all our own Tx's and print/mill our circuit boards, but use another country's components to a greater degree.

Example some of the best audio FET's are sold and marketed here in the UK however they are made for said company in another country.

Designing an amp is not always using a well known chip manufacturers off the shelf device, so the amount of fully discrete circuitry and supporting cast require to do the job that are actually UK is properly pretty low.

Both Sonneteer and Renaissance amplification are wholly British entities and make all of their products here and the majority of there products use as many UK built or source items as they can.

[Jimbo]

Exactly but that was the original question.

There are some companies who design and build in the UK but they have to use some components from abroad, such as Rega, Croft, EAR.

:rolleyes:

[anthonyTD]

I can think of One uk capacitor manufacturer LCR, they used to be just up the road from me [well a few miles] I think they are still there, they still make Caps anyway, and i have visited them in the past to discuss products etc.
Again as others have said, its a juggling act trying to make an all British product to sell comercialy as cost will play a huge part, as Mr C has pointed out, However, you can still make an [almost] all British product if cost is not the main issue, there are companies in the UK that can make Transformers, Casework, Wire, even Capacitors and other components, that will satisfy the needs of even the most demanding Audio designers and engineers etc.
As for truly all british amps from the past, i can think of a few, but again, if we were to examine every component, and what materials went into them, we would posibly find flaws, all depends on how deep you want to delve!
A...

[Mr. C]

Yes Anthony COST is the issue here I feel.

Quality casework here in the UK around £300-400 for that alone if you purchase 12+ complete units ( I am talking quality casework and finishing here)

You could manage around 85% of all British but there would be a cost premium without question, PLUS true audiophile products are for the few and far between, the vast majority of audio products are sold in John Lewis etc.

The audiophile is a dead duck for true business, just not enough of it without question, HOWEVER the lifestyle, Essex bling, overseas middle east, eastern Asia and Russian customers then (just to stick in Napoleon's claw) these will spend serious £$$$ on looks and impressing their oligarch friends one afternoon after flying in on personal Lear jets from an afternoon of racing around their private tracks in France.

This is not the late 80's or 90's anymore people buying habits, products have moved on from the multi box monsters of big hair 80's, gone are the racks of green lit equipment, now its slick, good looking all in one box solutions for the greater masses.

You guys are some of the last of the tinkers as these buyers from the previous era's have retired no longer have the disposable income or have sadly passed away, true their are a few, but these numbers are reducing.

Its the law of economics, their is good talent here in the UK home grown as well, but its pretty much financial suicide to open up a new manufacturer just to produce audiophile goods. Unless you go Kicker starter or have very wealth friends who need to 'loose' funds on a regular basis.

Look at Meridian if the owner was not married to a US multi millionaire's daughter who is very big in the film industry do you really feel they could keep going with 'x' losses?

Manageability and market research is the key imho

[Spectral Morn]

Who cares. If the best performing item, needs components from other countries to sound the best then that surely is the most important thing, not if its made in Britain a rather nebulous thing that fluctuates to include or not include Scotland or Wales, when it suits.

I want best sound, for the given function and money, where its made or not made I do not care one jot.

[anthonyTD]

Sadly I can't disagree with much of that. :(
Yes Anthony COST is the issue here I feel.

Quality casework here in the UK around £300-400 for that alone if you purchase 12+ complete units ( I am talking quality casework and finishing here)

You could manage around 85% of all British but there would be a cost premium without question, PLUS true audiophile products are for the few and far between, the vast majority of audio products are sold in John Lewis etc.

The audiophile is a dead duck for true business, just not enough of it without question, HOWEVER the lifestyle, Essex bling, overseas middle east, eastern Asia and Russian customers then (just to stick in Napoleon's claw) these will spend serious £$$$ on looks and impressing their oligarch friends one afternoon after flying in on personal Lear jets from an afternoon of racing around their private tracks in France.

This is not the late 80's or 90's anymore people buying habits, products have moved on from the multi box monsters of big hair 80's, gone are the racks of green lit equipment, now its slick, good looking all in one box solutions for the greater masses.

You guys are some of the last of the tinkers as these buyers from the previous era's have retired no longer have the disposable income or have sadly passed away, true their are a few, but these numbers are reducing.

Its the law of economics, their is good talent here in the UK home grown as well, but its pretty much financial suicide to open up a new manufacturer just to produce audiophile goods. Unless you go Kicker starter or have very wealth friends who need to 'loose' funds on a regular basis.

Look at Meridian if the owner was not married to a US multi millionaire's daughter who is very big in the film industry do you really feel they could keep going with 'x' losses?

Manageability and market research is the key imho

[Mr. C]

Just taking up Neil's point for a moment

If you are talking 'best' then your cost is not an issue this negates all of the above issues no question, BUT the amount of these products would be around 10 units max per year due to the amount of time to hand build these best units, no production line modular systems to work with just pure one on one with the product.

Though I feel Josie's point wasn't that one.

A couple of years ago we looked at a truly English amplifier manufacturer, quality products price pints between £3-7K, dealers liked the product but said can't sell it, why when asked easy reply came 'Its, not Quad, B&W, PMC, ATC, Arcam, Cyrus etc we can sell that to cows come home!'

Then there is the perception in the market place customers want provenance with their audio (audiophiles do anyway!) and that takes time and trust, look what happened to Devialet in the UK


The best is quite simple, you pay your money etc, with a more standard product the rules are very different imho

[Edward]

Is there something intrinsically superior to UK audiophile components as compared to what is made in, say, Sweden, Germany, Japan, USA?

[Jimbo]

Most electrical items produced around the world are an assembly of globally produced items based on price, quality and functionality. In terms of building a truly 'National' amplifier I would have thought the only countries able to do so would be Japan, China, USA and possibly Russia?

[Spectral Morn]

Just taking up Neil's point for a moment

If you are talking 'best' then your cost is not an issue this negates all of the above issues no question, BUT the amount of these products would be around 10 units max per year due to the amount of time to hand build these best units, no production line modular systems to work with just pure one on one with the product.

Though I feel Josie's point wasn't that one.

A couple of years ago we looked at a truly English amplifier manufacturer, quality products price pints between £3-7K, dealers liked the product but said can't sell it, why when asked easy reply came 'Its, not Quad, B&W, PMC, ATC, Arcam, Cyrus etc we can sell that to cows come home!'

Then there is the perception in the market place customers want provenance with their audio (audiophiles do anyway!) and that takes time and trust, look what happened to Devialet in the UK


The best is quite simple, you pay your money etc, with a more standard product the rules are very different imho

Well best at the given price points. Clever, well judged components, taken from where ever they can be found to give the best product at the various prices, £500, £1000, £1500, £2000 +

Unfortunately many are brainwashed that What HiFi 5 star products are the best option, when What HiFi frankly is a joke with an over damped demo room (was the case) that only bright, forward kit sounds any good. Every brand you list fall into that camp, except maybe PMC.

I have no idea what happened to Devialet in the UK. The very nature of the designs put me off ever being interested in them.

[Mr. C]

Would agree with a lot of thoughts on the What Caravan rotation of the usual drivel Neil

I suspect that most discerning music lovers are looking for something a little more engaging with long term satisfaction.

Pretty sure the Onix guys produce here in the UK as well

Any more thoughts Josie?

[The Black Adder]

Would agree with a lot of thoughts on the What Caravan rotation of the usual drivel Neil

I suspect that most discerning music lovers are looking for something a little more engaging with long term satisfaction.

Pretty sure the Onix guys produce here in the UK as well

Any more thoughts Josie?

Not really. All good so far.

Maybe different complexity of units would offer a more doable challenge? A simple amplifier might be more possible.

Aren't Chord also British?



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[Mr. C]

Chord electronics just what the doctor ordered for one of the best methods of non evasive ear wax removal.

Good call indeed.

A basic straight power amplifier maybe valves could do this, as mentioned all the decent FET's are non UK made, same for the discretes not sure all of the Zetex transistors is all made in the UK maybe Issac could enlighten us (if he still posts here?) his dad is Mr Zetex!

Maybe Anthony could produce a very close to all English unit, I would seriously struggle to achieve this and generate the sound our products actually do currently and going backwards in performance is not what our products are about.

Its not that we cannot do this here in the UK its the production costs and the potential demand for them.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Exactly but that was the original question.

There are some companies who design and build in the UK but they have to use some components from abroad, such as Rega, Croft, EAR.

I had a reply from Sugden also confirming this same answer: 'It would be impossible for us to build our equipment with components manufactured from only UK sourced materials.
I can’t think of any product that could be off the top of my head."

Which is not to say a very patriotic manufacturer could set about making everything from UK components, but would take a lot of patriotism
and passion. Having finished the first one, I can visualise Dad's army giving them a salute.

[Mr. C]

Sorry double post

[Jazid]

OP stipulated that the components must be made here by British companies. That kind of excludes Mullard from his reverie, as they were Dutch owned.
Also even if fabrication of components was achieved, the raw materials would often be mined and refined elsewhere. Its a bit of a pointless exercise attempting to buck the laws of supply and demand, though I notice around 90%of what I own is British made (and some of that pretty ancient [emoji16]), so I'm not knocking Britain here.

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[anthonyTD]

I think from my point of view, all we [as small individual companies who are still passionate about true HI-FI] can expect to be able to deliver, is a product that has been designed, and built here in the UK, that has taken full advantage of the best components available to us through UK suppliers, and to use some of the best skilled engineering companies here in the UK, to create and produce the casework needed etc.
A...

[Mr. C]

I think from my point of view, all we [as small individual companies who are still passionate about true HI-FI] can expect to be able to deliver, is a product that has been designed, and built here in the UK, that has taken full advantage of the best components available to us through UK suppliers, and to use some of the best skilled engineering companies here in the UK, to create and produce the casework needed etc.
A...

100% spot on Anthony :)

[Jazid]

And thanks for doing it guys [emoji16][emoji106]

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[paulf-2007]

Nobody makes an electronic component that is absolutely 100% manufactured in the UK. The biggest single stumbling blocks are the electronic components and I very much doubt it is even possible to source every component from a UK manufacturer (and certainly not a UK owned and UK based manufacturer).
Spot on. I could see this becoming political especially with comments like China not paying a living wage, which is tosh.

[walpurgis]

Even if items like capacitors or resistors etc., were manufactured in the UK. You can bet your life the constituent materials would not be all British sourced. Whether that eats into the argument or not, who knows! :)

[struth]

Low paid Chinese workers are hard done by... no idea how low electronics assemblers are but betting they will mostly be low. Anyway thats not the discussion .
Just thought I'd mention it

[Barry]

Even if items like capacitors or resistors etc., were manufactured in the UK. You can bet your life the constituent materials would not be all British sourced. Whether that eats into the argument or not, who knows! :)

Of course - we have no deposits of tantalum ore and bauxite, and now, no working copper ore mines in the UK.

[Macca]

tantalum ore .

I thought that was something from Star Trek?

[struth]

Captain, the Dilithium crystals are empty... As is the whisky, and, God I'm so fat... [emoji23]

[topoxforddoc]

Josie,

I think Graham Tricker uses pretty much exclusively British components for his TRON amplifiers. The power and output transformers are custom wound in the UK, the PCBs are custom made in the UK, the case work is all made in the UK, and I think the majority of of the components are UK sourced. Obviously designed and manufactured by GT in Bucks. Valves are a mixture of NOS UK and foreign manufacture.

Charlie