View Full Version : Jelco 250st first impressions
Set up my Jelco arm this weekend. I bought it used from Stanford audio when i first bought my deck august last year so its about time really.
I used a Mint protractor and found i had to set my Ortofon 2m well back in the head to the point i had to push it firmly against the cartridge tags but after an hour of much squinting it was ready to play.
Sounds a lot smoother and calmer than the standard arm. Listening to the a 70s recording of the Brazillian vocalist Joyce and im very aware shes singing in Portugese which is wierd. Also when she hits the high notes theres more detail without the metalic edge. The bass sounds more textured and the overall sound is a bit more organic. Sorry for the wanky words.
I might treat it and swap the blue cartridge for the bronze in the future but im very happy at the moment .
chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 12:50
Nice upgrade ' Colin, the techy arm is a bit busy sounding with a metallic edge .
No going back .
Thanks Chris. I was thinking back to the moment i first wanted a TT when i heard a michel gyro in Sevenoaks. I wondered into the listening room where the sales guy was playing a Joy Division lp, not a big fan but it sounded so good on the ears that i new that was it. Im amazed i can get close to that sound with a Dj deck.
chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 13:50
The gyro is a nice deck though the Orbe is big step up again , the modded Techie with the right arm is a very viable alternative IMHO .
I have to force myself to rest the finances for a bit but the power supply has to come some day soon.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2010, 14:18
I have to force myself to rest the finances for a bit but the power supply has to come some day soon.
well worth it!!
Well done, Colin. One day or the other I have to change my stock tonearm, too. Your 250ST could be a good choice, but I still prefer a tonearm with ease of cartridge interchange, that is the main reason I bought the SL 1200.
uhm... I just wonder why the Jelco SA250 S, at about the same cost of the 250ST but with SME removable shell, is not the preferred choice :scratch:
Is it a bad tonearm, compared to the 250ST?
Hi Giovanni,
No, it's just that S-shaped arms with detachable headshells are unfashionable in Europe, that's all. And also because the SA-750D is available, which is better. However, the 250S should be just as good as a 250ST :)
Colin,
Nice one on the new arm! That's a smart move, as will be buying an off-board PSU ;)
If you're not in too much of a hurry, I'll be selling my Timestep soon when I upgrade to an HE PSU, Paul Hynes PR5 or Tube Distinctions Revelation 14.5.
I'll give you a shout, if you like :cool:
Marco.
I have read that its an inferior arm but ive no idea why.
Hi Colin,
What about the Timestep - would you like me to give you a shout when it's for sale? :)
Marco.
Er , sorry Marco. Had no idea it was for sale.
Im skint after the arm build to be honest but i was hoping id be in the clear again by the end of the month. Had been thinking about building a Paul Hynes partly because i have fond memories of building wah wah pedals from my yoof and part because of costs. Thanks for the offer but can you let me stew on it for a bit?
Im guessing your upgrading to the special edition?
Hi Colin,
There's no hurry whatsoever, dude, as I'll not be selling it for at least a couple of months. I just thought I'd let you know since you had mentioned adding a PSU to your deck :)
I'll give you a shout when the time comes. It won't be until after I've thoroughly analysed the sonic effect of the superior PSUs options I have, such as the Paul Hynes PR5, Tube Distinctions Revelation 14.5, and of course the Timestep HE PSU.
Marco.
Cheers. If you have a price in mind could you send me a PM so the wee wheels in ma heed can start rolling , as my mother would say about my habit of over thinking things.
No worries, I'll mull it over and PM you later :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 23:20
I belive dave is offering an HE upgrade to the standard psu so you don't have to shell out the full whack ... Although don't quote me on that I just vaguly remember him saying something along those limes to martin when he was askin about it when we were there
Yes I heard that too, Hamish - in fact I think he's posted to that effect somewhere....
Thing is, I don't want to pay for an HE upgrade on my existing Timestep when I'll be selling it anyway (the Paul Hynes PR3 I have now beats it), and the HE PSU might not be what I end with up anyway, if the PR5 or Anthony's PSU is even better to my ears :)
It's always best to keep your options open!
You must be curious of the outcome of all this yourself, or will you simply stay 'loyal' to Dave and buy an HE PSU, regardless, when you want to upgrade? ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
15-06-2010, 00:50
I'm unlikely to do any ferthr upgrades to my tt for now to be honest. I always felt that £2k was about my limit concidering relativly speaking how few records I have - although that number is increasing quite quickly at the moment....
If i were to to upgrade ferther I very much doubt I would waver from daves products as I do trust his judgement! He has built up a good few years of specific experience in his field and his holistic aproach does make sence to me! I feel the same about my amps for eg, I wouldn't trust anyone other than Anthony with them ... It's like you were saying on the phone the other day ... It make sence to go to the person who obviously knows the most about a particular product and dave certainly knows the most about the techie!
I'd def hold my hands up and say that I buy into the timestep upgrade path and the theory behind it ... Even if I'm unlikely to climb any more of the steps up it any time soon ...
I, as I said to you before, have always been very happy with daves products and services, his passion fasinates me ... and I like the guy too. I'm open to the idea that a different psu might offer a different sound but I'm no that interested to be honest! I'm sure people might think this aproach is silly - not to try alternatives to get a little bit better sound... But for me daves whole idea of slowly creating a completely new turntable out of bit that replace inferior parts o the techie to me is brilliant... If I could afford it I would follow it to the nth degree, even to the point of there not being a single part left made by panasonic .... I dunno call me daft, it just really apeals to me!
It's why i think I must come across as though i'm fighting his corner I suppose, as much as I like the guy, I am also, as I said fasinated by what he is trying to achive and I do belive that in the end the combination of the bits he makes will win out ... Even if they do become a bit to expensive for me...
So yes marco, in answer to your question, I'd say I am loyal to his products... But more importantly I like the whole idea... I know some don't get it... But I really do ... I understand the guys passion ... It's something I like in people and am willing to support it ... I'm not sure that's gonna make much sence to some people... But I'm not fussed to be honest...
Hi Hamish,
I'm unlikely to do any ferthr upgrades to my tt for now to be honest. I always felt that £2k was about my limit concidering relativly speaking how few records I have - although that number is increasing quite quickly at the moment....
Fair enough, but never say never, dude - it doesn't take much for the upgrade bug to bite!
If i were to to upgrade ferther I very much doubt I would waver from daves products as I do trust his judgement! He has built up a good few years of specific experience in his field and his holistic aproach does make sence to me!
It makes sense to me too, and I would trust Dave's judgement on a number of matters where I felt his experience and/or expertise in a particular area exceeded mine. However, ultimately I trust my own ears more than anything else when a product is demonstrated to me which I consider is clearly superior. This is why I would use, for example, a PSU from someone else other than Dave, if to my ears in my system it sounded better. That's just normal and part of life. It shouldn't be seen as a slap in the face to Dave, because it isn't.
The fact is, neither Dave nor I (or anyone else) knows everything there is to know about the SL-1200/1210, or audio in general - one is always on a constant learning curve. The moment you think you know it all is when something is liable to jump up and slap you in the face and bring you back to reality with a crashing thud.....!
Therefore, it's dangerous to set yourself up as 'da man' with anything because someone is bound to come along sometime and knock you off your perch. How you then react to that shows your true character, and in that respect it's obvious certain people don't handle competition very well. Competition, IMO, should always be seen as a healthy thing, as it ensures you're always learning and kept on your toes.
As they say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going! What they don't do is sulk and go off in a huff..... ;)
Therefore one should remain open-minded at all times and always be willing to learn and embrace new ideas and methods from others which may prove more effective than your own in order to stay at the top of your game, and most importantly, maintain your credibility and good reputation.
I feel the same about my amps for eg, I wouldn't trust anyone other than Anthony with them ... It's like you were saying on the phone the other day ... It make sence to go to the person who obviously knows the most about a particular product and dave certainly knows the most about the techie!
Well he may be the person who knows most about the Techie that you know of, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually knows the most. Dave undoubtedly knows his onions about the SL-1200, through years of experimenting, but so does the likes of Kevin Barrett from KAB USA, whom I bought my modified SL-1210 from originally, and who was modifying the Technics long before Dave. Check out his website and click on 'Technics mods', and you'll appreciate the extent of his experience: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/
I'm also sure that there are many other people too all over the world who know plenty about modifying Technics direct-drive T/Ts, simply because these turntables have been on the market now for over 30 years. Therefore, what I do is seek to gain knowledge from as many people as possible and use that knowledge to my benefit, rather than simply acknowledging one specific person, no matter how knowledgeable he may be, as 'THE Techie guru'. You learn much more that way!
You're right when you say: "It make sence to go to the person who obviously knows the most about a particular product", but it also makes sense to always be receptive to the possibility that someone else may have discovered something new which that person either didn't know or hadn't considered, and thus the other person may have made an even better product as a result.
That's why I won't simply 'accept' (and nor should I be expected to) that Dave's HE PSU is the best (for me) in my system until I listen to it and all the available alternatives from people I believe know exactly what they're doing. In that respect, Paul Hynes and Anthony TD are highly qualified audio engineers, and as capable as Dave C of building a top-notch PSU for the Techie. There is no 'magic' or rocket science involved, Hamish; just simply the employing of solid engineering principles and having an in-depth understanding of the circuit.
I'd def hold my hands up and say that I buy into the timestep upgrade path and the theory behind it ...
So do I - to an extent, but I'm not naïve enough to believe that it's the only 'one true path'. I've always found that embracing the bigger picture and casting the net out far and wide in audio reaps the most significant rewards.
I, as I said to you before, have always been very happy with daves products and services, his passion fasinates me ... and I like the guy too.
I'd agree with that. Dave and I obviously have our differences but I wouldn't ever let that cloud the fact that he's passionate about what he does.
I'm open to the idea that a different psu might offer a different sound but I'm no that interested to be honest! I'm sure people might think this aproach is silly - not to try alternatives to get a little bit better sound... But for me daves whole idea of slowly creating a completely new turntable out of bit that replace inferior parts o the techie to me is brilliant... If I could afford it I would follow it to the nth degree, even to the point of there not being a single part left made by panasonic .... I dunno call me daft, it just really apeals to me!
So would I - and having abandoned the SP10 option, I intend to 'pimp' my SL-1210 until it can be 'pimped' no more! :eyebrows:
However, whether I use Dave's services or products for that or not will depend on whether I think his are the best of the available options - it's simple as that. I'm afraid that I have no 'loyalty' to anything or anyone other than what I consider is best for my own system and me, which is exactly how it should be.
I will always help and support the businesses of those I feel are worthy of supporting, and use their products and/or services when necessary, and Sound Hi-fi products come under that category, but I won't feel obliged to use or recommend them simply to keep those involved happy, as that would be disingenuous. And any dealer or manufacturer who takes umbrage at that, or makes one feel awkward, I'm sorry to say has IMO a fatally flawed approach to business and a rather fragile ego.
The situation is also slightly different for me, compared to how it is for you, as apart from simply being an end user of products, I'm also the owner of an audio forum such as this, and thus find myself in an influential position when recommending various products and services.
Therefore I consider it my duty to accumulate as much knowledge and experience of the products and services I'm recommending, and be as thorough as possible, in order that I can make suitable and effective suggestions to people here with all sorts of different systems when they ask for my advice.
I couldn't do that if I just blindly followed one dealer/manufacturer's approach at the expense of all others, which is why I must always look at the bigger picture if what I write here is to have any genuine credibility and not be seen as simply the scribbles of a blinkered fanboy/puppet of one particular dealer or manufacturer's products and/or system building methodology.
It's why i think I must come across as though i'm fighting his corner I suppose, as much as I like the guy, I am also, as I said fasinated by what he is trying to achive and I do belive that in the end the combination of the bits he makes will win out ... Even if they do become a bit to expensive for me...
So yes marco, in answer to your question, I'd say I am loyal to his products... But more importantly I like the whole idea... I know some don't get it... But I really do ... I understand the guys passion ... It's something I like in people and am willing to support it ... I'm not sure that's gonna make much sence to some people... But I'm not fussed to be honest...
That's fine, and I totally respect that and appreciate what you’ve said. I also agree with a lot of it. I am equally as passionate myself about what I believe in. However, I also hope you can respect the fact that in my position I have to approach things somewhat differently.
Sorry for rambling on somewhat, but I felt it was important to get all this across :)
Marco.
P.S Perhaps this discussion needs a separate thread of its own?
The Vinyl Adventure
15-06-2010, 12:48
Blimey marco, that's quite an extensive reply...
Erm yeah, you have your aproach and I have mine.
I'm not sure we need another thread... I think we have pretty much covered it between us! :)
... Although I should say I'm not trying to keep dave happy in anyway ... As I said it more his level of interest in the subject fasinates me enough to want to stick with it. As well as having products manufactured with the idea of them working together
I'm sure Dave can look after his own happiness :)
I'm sure he can (and does). However, I thought your post deserved quite an extensive reply, so that my position on this is crystal clear.
No worries, we'll leave the discussion there, as long you understand why I do what I have to do. I know I don't have to explain myself, but your opinion and that of others is important to me :)
Marco.
Beobloke
15-06-2010, 17:07
Hi Giovanni,
However, the 250S should be just as good as a 250ST :)
Unfortunately it isn't. Measurement of the arm's vibrational characteristics show it to be markedly inferior to the straight and well damped tube of the SA-250ST and this translates into a sound that is less well focsed and comparatively lacking in drive.
The same is not true, of course, of the SA-750D.
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the info. If you've tested it, then fair enough :)
I'm simply rallying against the age-old bias in Europe (particularly in the UK) against S-shaped tonearms with detachable headshells, where often such bias isn't sonically justified.
Marco.
Unfortunately it isn't. Measurement of the arm's vibrational characteristics show it to be markedly inferior to the straight and well damped tube of the SA-250ST and this translates into a sound that is less well focsed and comparatively lacking in drive.
The same is not true, of course, of the SA-750D.
That's interesting, thank you Adam.
So, if I want a replaceable headshell I have to go for the 750D, no alternatives...
Hi Giovanni,
Ortofon also produce a re-badged Jelco SA-750D at double the price, which apparently has a better damped armtube.
There is also the classic Acos Lustre GST 801 (shown below), if you can find one in good condition :)
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7250/acoslustregst801.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/acoslustregst801.jpg/)
Marco.
Hi Giovanni,
Ortofon also produce a re-badged Jelco SA-750D at double the price, which apparently has a better damped armtube.
There is also the classic Acos Lustre GST 801, if you can find one in good condition :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I just need a not-so-expensive tonearm, with a replaceable headshell, to play with, but I don't want to get a used one. I guess the only choice is the Jelco SA 750D.
I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I can contend from personal experience that the 750D is a superb tonearm, and punches way above its weight, sonically. It's unquestionably a £1000 tonearm with a £450 price tag.
I've just fitted my new Ortofon SPU Royal GM to it and, goodness me, what a superb combination that is - undoubtedly one of the finest I've heard! :eek:
Currently spining The Beatles 'Help' album, and the music has never sounded so natural and believable through my equally vintage Tannoys!
Marco.
I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I can contend from personal experience that the 750D is a superb tonearm, and punches way above its weight, sonically.
I've just fitted my new Ortofon SPU Royal GM to it and, goodness me, what a superb combination that is - undoubtedly one of the finest I've heard! :eek:
Currently enjoying The Beatles 'Help' album, and the music has never sounded so natural and believable through my equally vintage Tannoys!
Marco.
Marco, I know the Jelco 750D is a very good choice (since I have a DL103SA, it is the *best* choice, too), but I'll wait for a little more, to see if some 12'' arm solution for the 1200 will arise somewhere. Otherwise I'll go for this http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm
since you can swap very easily the tonearms, it is possible to change cartridges just like I want to do.
I asked Vic and he said the Terminator is a good companion for low compliance cartdridges, too.
What you think about that toneamr, Marco?
The Vinyl Adventure
15-06-2010, 18:01
I want a terminator for mine long term... Even just for a week ... I still say it's one of the coolest bits of kit I have ever seen!!
By all accounts, Giovanni, the Terminator is a superb tonearm. I've not heard one myself, but John (Music Room Mod) has on many occasions, and Vic is a personal friend of his, so John's your man for advice on that one :)
Marco.
Hi Marco, do you prefer the ortofon to your denon 103s ?
Hi Colin,
The short answer is, so far, yes! And I don't even have the right SUT for it yet...... :eek:
It's big, ballsy and effortlessly musical in a way that even the 103SA couldn't manage, and works oh so sweetly with the Jelco.... Sonically (and even aesthetically), the Jelco SA-750D and Ortofon SPU Classic GM are a match made in heaven!
Marco.
Nice result marco. Im pleased with my jelco / ortofon 2m blue . I had no idea if they would match but seems to work well. One day i hope to stick a black stylus on the arm but the price has rocketed in the last 6 months. In january they were £260 at Super fi on line. They go for £360 now:eek:
Hi Colin,
Seems like you've got a result, too :)
I've heard the 2M Black on Shuggie's (old SL-1210) and Jelco, and it's a nice combo. Getting vinyl reproduction correct is largely down to achieving the right synergy!
Marco.
chris@panteg
16-06-2010, 09:58
Hi Marco
So true i feel after a fair amount of listening that the DL160/309 combo is not the best match , ironically the SA750 i suspect would suit the 160 better .
But and this is the thing i kind of suspected as much ! and was always looking further ahead to getting something better for the 309.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.