Silver cables-myth or fact?

[Covenant]

I have recently changed my preamp from a BTE stepped attenuator silver wired internally to a much more expensive DCB1 wired with copper. I have noticed a slight loss of high frequency, especially cymbals.
Some say silver cables exaggerate high frequencies. Is the problem caused by the cables or could it be an impedance mismatch? My old preamp was built to suit the amp.

[YNWaN]

I’m not really sure where I stand on the silver/copper interconnect debate. However, my ‘sitting on the fence’ stance isn’t brought about by a lack of experience - I’ve actually compared identical cables made with both types of conductor and quite a number of cables designed and sold with copper, silver, silver clad copper, gold and silver alloy, super pure copper and super pure silver and a number of other similar options. My real problem relates to my understanding of electrical science and essential ‘LCR’ values. Not only does this understanding deny that any worthwhile differences can exist between interconnects but certainly the difference between a pure silver and pure copper conductor is so ridiculously tiny that the whole premise is entirely worthless and outright ridiculous.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another cable debate! They always end up turning to shit ;). Well, for what it's worth. I think I hear more detail with silver although I have a system wired in vintage nickel plated copper which I think sounds warmer. Personally I think I've been brainwashed into thinking these outcomes after reading too many cable debates. :lol:

[YNWaN]

Sorry, I’ve realised I’ve not actually expressed my opinion!

So - my completely unscientific thoughts are that the best silver cables do give a particularly subtle and nuanced quality to their representation of upper frequencies but, in terms of the overall presentation, the sound is less dynamic and ‘fleshed out’. How much this impacts on your system very much depends on its individual strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: I’ve actually found this incredibly hard to write because I have so many contrasting thoughts on the matter I find it hard to compose them - particularly whilst typing on my phone!

[YNWaN]

Further edit; I feel I should add that my stated views are not intended to override the views of others as I feel less than certain in my own experiences (I’m not generally short on opinion). I do generally feel something is going on with this issue but as to how that could be possible I am entirely at a loss.

[Jimbo]

Tried lots of copper and silver cables and I feel both can work in the right situation depending on what they are connected too. What I am talking about is system synergy. It all depends on how the cable interacts with the system and what type of sound you are looking for.

I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong or one is better than the other just carefully judged implementation.

What sounds good to you will be the right choice.

[Bigman80]

Further edit; I feel I should add that my stated views are not intended to override the views of others as I feel less than certain in my own experiences (I’m not generally short on opinion). I do generally feel something is going on with this issue but as to how that could be possible I am entirely at a loss.[emoji1787][emoji1787] One of the best 3 part posts ever. I love it.

[Bigman80]

I agree with no one on this subject it seems.

I have also done masses of experiments with cables. All the lovely types Mark has mentioned and possibly a couple he hasn't.

Truth is, I never kept a Silver cable of any kind in my system. Every time I went back to copper.

The copper cables always sounded more real, more expressive and dramatic. Silver, whilst I agree maybe has the edge I. The HFs, never convinced me that I was hearing a wooden bodied instrument, or the cymbals would be overly shiny. Vocals lacked volume or mass to be more precise and generally, just felt lifeless. Not to be confused with lack of dynamism. I mean, nothing ever sounded Alive or human or like organic matter!!!

I'm being quite general here and throwing a blanket over a huge topic of debate but I'm condensing more cable comparisons than hot dinners.

There are certain applications where silver works and Jim will tell you that he felt the need to have silver plated cables in his croft amps for a long time, to get them to sing.

There are systems that possibly need a bit of zing but mine doesn't, IMO.

[Audio Al]

Why in the year 2019 with 2020 on the way do we not have foo'omiters , Somthing like a very sensative scope display that when used with a microphone shows full scale sound frequency's throught the entire range , From the lowest to the highest audible frequency's

Then If you swap a component you could see the difference .

Have I just invented something , or will I be silenced by the mob :eek:

[Bigman80]

Why in the year 2019 with 2020 on the way do we not have foo'omiters , Somthing like a very sensative scope display that when used with a microphone shows full scale sound frequency's throught the entire range , From the lowest to the highest audible frequency's

Then If you swap a component you could see the difference .

Have I just invented something , or will I be silenced by the mob :eek:Haha, get inventing

[walpurgis]

will I be silenced by the mob :eek:

Could be. :)

You can't measure what you hear or how you hear it (yet).

[Covenant]

Putting aside the cable debate (not wanted by me) Could the problem be a slight impedance mismatch or me spending a couple of years listening to a sound that exaggerated HF? If its the latter I have to say I enjoyed it!

[Hibster_2000]

I agree with no one on this subject it seems.

I have also done masses of experiments with cables. All the lovely types Mark has mentioned and possibly a couple he hasn't.

Truth is, I never kept a Silver cable of any kind in my system. Every time I went back to copper.

The copper cables always sounded more real, more expressive and dramatic. Silver, whilst I agree maybe has the edge I. The HFs, never convinced me that I was hearing a wooden bodied instrument, or the cymbals would be overly shiny. Vocals lacked volume or mass to be more precise and generally, just felt lifeless. Not to be confused with lack of dynamism. I mean, nothing ever sounded Alive or human or like organic matter!!!

I'm being quite general here and throwing a blanket over a huge topic of debate but I'm condensing more cable comparisons than hot dinners.

There are certain applications where silver works and Jim will tell you that he felt the need to have silver plated cables in his croft amps for a long time, to get them to sing.

There are systems that possibly need a bit of zing but mine doesn't, IMO.

Out of interest, why do you use silver solder in the cables you make? Surely, a touch of silver at the connection will make very little difference in an all copper construction? Also, the plugs are silver plated? So does a bit of silver help?

[NRG]

I have recently changed my preamp from a BTE stepped attenuator silver wired internally to a much more expensive DCB1 wired with copper. I have noticed a slight loss of high frequency, especially cymbals.
Some say silver cables exaggerate high frequencies. Is the problem caused by the cables or could it be an impedance mismatch? My old preamp was built to suit the amp.

Or it could be the BTE is simply a better preamp. Sometimes more expensive does not = better :eyebrows:

[Bigman80]

Out of interest, why do you use silver solder in the cables you make? Surely, a touch of silver at the connection will make very little difference in an all copper construction? Also, the plugs are silver plated? So does a bit of silver help?

The silver solder was selected at a time when I just wanted to make the best cable I could, out of the best materials I could afford.

I didn't have any other reason than I had read repeatedly that silver solder was the best. I made the first set using 60/40 and KLE gold plated Bullet plugs. I then found the Silver plated Copper Harmony KLE plugs and decided to try them. As the plug was silver plated, I decided to use silver solder and try and make that joint an extension of the pin, by using a similar solder material. I don't think thats quite possible but I didn't know that at the time.

The result was a cable that sounded less heavy and delivered more air and space to the performance. Better nuances and micro/macro detail. Again this is a subjective opinion.

I tried the KLE's with 60/40 solder on another pair and didn't feel they were as good, although I am open to that being psychological.

I then tried Pure Silver RCA plugs and the air and space improved again.

Each time I added a bit more silver in that are, I found the improvements were obvious but when I removed the copper cable and replaced it with Silver, I lost the all the things I enjoyed about it an yes, I freely admit that where HF is concerned, Silver is usually the way to go but you can have the best of both if you fid the right plug and cable combo.

I have now tried my cable with almost every plug on the market, thanks to the special requests of many customers. The cables sounded different with most of them.

I still prefer the KLE Absolute Harmony and the KLE Copper Harmony and Silver solder combination to any other plug and solder combination I have tried. From a subjective sound perspective.

[Bigman80]

Putting aside the cable debate (not wanted by me) Could the problem be a slight impedance mismatch or me spending a couple of years listening to a sound that exaggerated HF? If its the latter I have to say I enjoyed it!

All I can tell you is that I used a Goldpoint Passive Preamp for a couple of months. It was pimped out with Zfoil resistors, silver wire etc.

I just couldn't have lived with it on a full time basis. It could be that the combination of Passive Pre and Power is complimenting each other and the DCB1 isn't. As for an impedance Mismatch, only the sound of one amplifier wasn't improved by the DCB1, that was Rextons Sondex.

I just cant see it being a mismatch with the croft. I have tried a very similar amplifier and had no issues.

Could just be that you prefer the original combination.

[NRG]

It’s silver LOADED solder. Silver solder is something quite different. At 2~4% silver content it’s very unlikely that it makes any perceived difference to sound quality however it does wet the joint better and flows better making for a better joint especially if you don’t have ninja soldering skills.

[Bigman80]

It’s silver LOADED solder. Silver solder is something quite different. At 2~4% silver content it’s very unlikely that it makes any perceived difference to sound quality however it does wet the joint better and flows better making for a better joint especially if you don’t have ninja soldering skills.Yes, I know this [emoji1787][emoji1787]

Hence the 9% silver content marking on the label lol

[Hibster_2000]

The silver solder was selected at a time when I just wanted to make the best cable I could, out of the best materials I could afford.

I didn't have any other reason than I had read repeatedly that silver solder was the best. I made the first set using 60/40 and KLE gold plated Bullet plugs. I then found the Silver plated Copper Harmony KLE plugs and decided to try them. As the plug was silver plated, I decided to use silver solder and try and make that joint an extension of the pin, by using a similar solder material. I don't think thats quite possible but I didn't know that at the time.

The result was a cable that sounded less heavy and delivered more air and space to the performance. Better nuances and micro/macro detail. Again this is a subjective opinion.

I tried the KLE's with 60/40 solder on another pair and didn't feel they were as good, although I am open to that being psychological.

I then tried Pure Silver RCA plugs and the air and space improved again.

Each time I added a bit more silver in that are, I found the improvements were obvious but when I removed the copper cable and replaced it with Silver, I lost the all the things I enjoyed about it an yes, I freely admit that where HF is concerned, Silver is usually the way to go but you can have the best of both if you fid the right plug and cable combo.

I have now tried my cable with almost every plug on the market, thanks to the special requests of many customers. The cables sounded different with most of them.

I still prefer the KLE Absolute Harmony and the KLE Copper Harmony and Silver solder combination to any other plug and solder combination I have tried. From a subjective sound perspective.

So what we need is an OCC silver/copper hybrid cable?

[Bigman80]

So what we need is an OCC silver/copper hybrid cable?If only it were that simple.

[Covenant]

Or it could be the BTE is simply a better preamp. Sometimes more expensive does not = better :eyebrows:

A firm no to that one. There are lots of things the DCB1 does better but its not the point of the discussion.

[Mike Reed]

Like Mark, I won't pass any judgement on silver v copper, at least in 1 metre I/Cs. However, f.w.i.w., early last year (or maybe before) I hosted a bake-off with 6 people including me; one of these a local dealer known to this parish. I switched between my Chord Indigos and my then recently acquired Artisan Audio Silver Dream Ultimate; 4 cores into WBT Ag plugs. Kit was 4 box Lector CDP (valved) and E.A.R. 912 pre. (valved)

Half those present voted for the copper, half for the silver. Interestingly, if I recall correctly, 2 of those present were mainly classical aficionados and chose copper. The CD only member chose silver; so did I, despite being a classical lover. There was a distinct difference, but not in frequency terms (although the silvers did seem to stretch the upper frequencies a bit) but in presentation. The silvers were leaner and (maybe because of this) seemed to have more 'clarity', with the copper smoother.

I later used this combo swap between pre. and (509 mono) powers and initially liked the uplift in acuity (seemingly) but reverting to the Chords somehow seemed to be more holistic. Didn't try my T.Q. Black Diamonds against the silvers but my guess is that it'll be somewhere in between.

Just to say I'm glad I bought the Silver Dreams and still use them from pre. to power, where they seem to have a more synergistic effect, but adjudicate between the two? No way; they're just different. However, this was with valved source and amplification (+ big ELS). Maybe a different outcome with various s/s designs.

[Rocky]

I find older people prefer silver, probably because of their age-related hearing loss , and hifi related hearing loss, they lose the ability to ear the upper frequencies, so silver cables extenuates those. In the below 60 category, silver sounds thin and artificial. Can't beat a good thick copper cable.

[Gaz]

Could be. :)

You can't measure what you hear or how you hear it (yet).

Or what you think you can hear/want to hear/expect to hear but can't really:lol:

[Bigman80]

Or what you think you can hear/want to hear/expect to hear but can't really[emoji38]A sceptic by any chance?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Could be. :)

You can't measure what you hear or how you hear it (yet).

Exactly, as example we can hear tiny inflections in voice where a singer looks down, or across to other musicians, but getting a measuring instrument
to pick up such nuances is nigh impossible

Some though will try, by aimlessly looking at graphs and oscilloscopes -rather than just appreciating
and expressing what they are hearing.

[NRG]

I find older people prefer silver, probably because of their age-related hearing loss , and hifi related hearing loss, they lose the ability to ear the upper frequencies, so silver cables extenuates those. In the below 60 category, silver sounds thin and artificial. Can't beat a good thick copper cable.

Nothing quite like pigeon holing a demographic is there LOL

[AJSki2fly]

Putting aside the cable debate (not wanted by me) Could the problem be a slight impedance mismatch or me spending a couple of years listening to a sound that exaggerated HF? If its the latter I have to say I enjoyed it!

Ok here’s my two penny worth thoughts and experience of this stuff over 40 years

Every pure silver cable I’ve tried, I have not kept, I feel it makes it all sound a bit clinical.

The right copper cable with silver coat can offer a good option in the right application, in fact I have a phono cable which is this, and it gives more detail. Having said that I recently changed turntable and the one that came with it that sells for 1/4 the price sounds virtually the same and it’s very subtle difference.

Pure copper can IMO give a warm/dampened presentation. In fact I have a solid core short pure copper interconnect which is great to get rid of top end harshness from a piece of gear.

Recently I discovered Belden cable and use this as interconnect between SUT and phono stage, not an expensive cable, a straight forward microphone cable and what I think is key here is with low impedance. It is the best cable I have found and only cost £50.

So I am of the opinion that pure silver gives some edgy ness/harshness to the sound, why I have no idea just my experience with what I have tried. Good multi strand copper work well, and I have found that silvered copper can lift the presentation in the top-end. based on my relatively recent experience with a Belden cable I think impedance matching the cable to where it is being used is pretty important. After all it seems to be common sense that any resistance to getting the signal form one bit of kit to another is going to impede the end result in some way, this may explain why when we cable swap from one cable product to another the sound can be impacted greatly. I think there is not a single solution but for each system and listener there is a cable combination that works best, perfect for manufacturers and retailers to keep offering the perfect cable.��

[JohnG]

Having Trialled a variety of RCA Interconnects and Speaker Cables over the years, and more recently RCA Digital Interconnect and DIN Phono Cables in Silver and Copper.
The Cables range from DIY to Branded - £'s to £££'s.

I am sure there are many parameters that individuals will only consider to make ones evaluation worthy of consideration, so to clarify these are my perceptions of how I felt a particular type of metal in a cable left a impression, and how I felt about the idea of using a type of metal at a particular interface in a System.

My thoughts on most evaluations consistently leans to Copper as the compromise and will usually be my cable of choice to be put to use, or a Cable I will state a overall preference to if being part of a Trial/Bake Off.

As always there are anomalies that will detract from a consistency in a evaluation, and the words 'Compromise' and 'Usually' have a value too be considered.
I don't know if anybody has a cable of their dreams, but some go through periods where these items lined up to be exchanged in the hope of discovering 'The One'.
I have shared in this experience and have a impression left relating to the different metals.

I will say to start that the most impressive cables I have very good recollections of and experiences with have had a purchase value of close to £100 +/- 30%.
This will vary for many, that is my recollection and experience.

I would take what I perceive as the extended top end of a few of the auditioned RCA and DIN Silver Only Cables over the most valued Copper auditioned cables any day.
As a perception of a Bass Extension and Bass Authority in a RCA and DIN Silver Only Cable,
I am not convinced I have auditioned one that can offer, as to what I perceive a RCA and DIN Copper Only Cable can.

I have perceived RCA and DIN Copper Only Cables that have a extended top end, that surpasses other RCA and DIN Copper Only Cables, I am not convinced I have auditioned a RCA and DIN Copper Only Cable that gives the perception of extending in the way that a RCA and DIN Silver Only Cable can.

I have auditioned a few RCA and DIN Silver Only Cables that I will refer my perception of the presentation, as 'Shrill'/Colouration and 'Unwanted.
I have auditioned a few RCA and DIN Copper Only Cables, that have a Muddiness/Colouration
that is 'Unwanted' and very distracting when perceived.
I have not perceived a 'Shrill'/Colouration RCA and DIN Copper Only Cable, or perceived a RCA and DIN Silver Only Cable to have a Muddiness/Colouration.

For Speaker Cables the perceptions are very similar, what is most memorable, is how a few Copper Only Speaker Cables had a overwhelming perception of a Muddiness/Colouration.

There are very enjoyable experiences to be had in the choosing of a cable that one perceives as a very tolerable interface in their system.
I feel the decision comes down to how much 'Colouration' a individual wants to introduce to their system, as we are all individuals, the choices made around this will be very broad and bespoke to the individual.