Remembrance day "Poppy Fascism"?

[walpurgis]

David Starkey makes some points: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7671361/Historian-David-Starkey-says-Remembrance-Sunday-crazy-religious-ritual.html

Seeing this: https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2019-11-11/man-admits-to-setting-off-fireworks-during-remembrance-sunday-event/

Makes me wonder if he is right.

The miscreant showed a lack of respect it's true, but sixteen weeks inside for letting off fireworks? He'd have maybe just been fined if he'd done it elsewhere, if the police could be bothered in the first place.

I note, all the main TV channels suspended regular programmes and showed the two minutes silence at The Cenotaph this morning. Why? They've not all done that before. Is there some sort of climate of fear developing?

Are there situations where we are now compelled to 'show respect'?

[Barry]

This was the 100th aniversary of the first Remembrance Day; which might explain the extra coverage by all the TV and radio channels.

One could argue that it is through the efforts of those who fought in the two World Wars, that Starkey can enjoy the continuing maintenance of freedom of speech to express his opinions. His claim that some enlist because they like to kill is just abhorrent.

[struth]

Well the 2 main ww's were 99%conscript so kinda blows that argument out of water.

Folk Complain about remembrance day for their own alterior motives and nothing else.

[Stryder5]

There's a time and place for things, this showed a total disrespect for the situation. Doing it elsewhere is not relevant.

Perhaps we should revert to older times, people could show their disrespect for this individual with 24hrs in the "stocks".

I don't think there's a climate of fear, rather a feeling of nationalism not multiculturalism.

Feeling compelled, no, rather a gratitude for what was given for us that is natural no forced in any way.

Who would now volunteer to go to fight, leaving their loved one's behind to suffer the consequences of our current lawlessness.

Their is currently no respect for creed or age. We need a deterrent.

Gary

[nonuffin]

It would frighten the seven shades of shit out of living humanity if all the dead during these wars popped their heads out of their final resting place and shouted in unison "Thank you for remembering us all". From that point of view it is about as useless as flowers being placed at the roadside where a fatal accident took place. The dead cannot ever appreciate the sentiment intended.

The real message is for people that are still alive to step back and realise just how utterly horrific a real war is and not make the same stupid futile mistakes again. "It will be all over by christmas" has that ring of flawed logic this world does not need any more under any circumstances.

[YNWaN]

I don’t believe political threads have any place on a hi-fi forum and I think this thread should be deleted and the OP asked not to post similar again (via pm).

[Stryder5]

Well the 2 main ww's were 99%conscript so kinda blows that argument out of water.

Folk Complain about remembrance day for their own alterior motives and nothing else.

I don't agree with your proportions given that over 2.5 million British citizens volunteered early in WW1.

Gary

[walpurgis]

I don’t believe political threads have any place on a hi-fi forum and I think this thread should be deleted and the OP asked not to post similar again (via pm).

Not sure anybody mentioned politics. An allusion to attitudes yes, politics? No, I don't think so.

[struth]

Yup in first couple of years it was a sort of voluntary thing. Groups and pals brigades were all the rage, with a thought about it being over by Xmas for first year. Then pressure was brought a bit if u didn't by public etc.
It became conscript in 1916.
Ww2 was mostly conscript after dunkirk although folk did volunteer like my dad. You had a chance to pick your service early especially if u volunteered.
He went qbroad in1940 and never got home til late 46 being forced to stay in n Africa guarding an instillation

[Lawrence001]

David Starkey makes some points: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7671361/Historian-David-Starkey-says-Remembrance-Sunday-crazy-religious-ritual.html

Seeing this: https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2019-11-11/man-admits-to-setting-off-fireworks-during-remembrance-sunday-event/

Makes me wonder if he is right.

The miscreant showed a lack of respect it's true, but sixteen weeks inside for letting off fireworks? He'd have maybe just been fined if he'd done it elsewhere, if the police could be bothered in the first place.

I note, all the main TV channels suspended regular programmes and showed the two minutes silence at The Cenotaph this morning. Why? They've not all done that before. Is there some sort of climate of fear developing?

Are there situations where we are now compelled to 'show respect'?Other news channels are saying he pointed the fireworks at the crowd in which case the sentence is more than deserved.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Joe]

Well, whatever it is, it's not facism. Interestingly, the ex-servicemen in the immediate aftermath of WWI were cynical about the whole Remembrance thing. Here's Lord Peter Wimsey in 'The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club' talking to a fellow veteran:

'All this remembrance-day business gets on your nerves, don't it? It's my belief most of us would be only too pleased to chuck these community hysterics if the beastly newspapers didn't run it for all it's worth'.

La plus ca change, as they say.

[WESTLOWER]

David Starkey makes some points: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7671361/Historian-David-Starkey-says-Remembrance-Sunday-crazy-religious-ritual.html

Seeing this: https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2019-11-11/man-admits-to-setting-off-fireworks-during-remembrance-sunday-event/

Makes me wonder if he is right.

The miscreant showed a lack of respect it's true, but sixteen weeks inside for letting off fireworks? He'd have maybe just been fined if he'd done it elsewhere, if the police could be bothered in the first place.

I note, all the main TV channels suspended regular programmes and showed the two minutes silence at The Cenotaph this morning. Why? They've not all done that before. Is there some sort of climate of fear developing?

Are there situations where we are now compelled to 'show respect'?

Imho Starky is a total cretin for trying to question it.
As for the pond life that couldn’t keep his pyrotechnics under control during the homage to the fallen, here’s hoping he has time to reflect on his sad life whilst doing porridge

IMO Yes we are obliged to remember and do it with dignity.
‘Poppy fascism’ ? What an insult.

[WESTLOWER]

Well, whatever it is, it's not facism. Interestingly, the ex-servicemen in the immediate aftermath of WWI were cynical about the whole Remembrance thing. Here's Lord Peter Wimsey in 'The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club' talking to a fellow veteran:

'All this remembrance-day business gets on your nerves, don't it? It's my belief most of us would be only too pleased to chuck these community hysterics if the beastly newspapers didn't run it for all it's worth'.

La plus ca change, as they say.

And as for an ex servicemen just back from that nightmare, it’s totally understandable that they would not want the pomp of Remembrance Day. But as the years tick by and the old timers make way, it’s only right that the next generations to come feel it part of our history and commitment to remembering the horrors and the sacrifices of so many around the globe.

[Gaz]

The very fact that the OP could post this thread, the Mail could print that article and the guy with the fireworks wasn't executed is due to the sacrifices made by the allied servicemen.
So yes, we should be grateful and spending 2 minutes once a year remembering them isn't much to ask in return for the freedom (albeit diminishing) we enjoy today

[walpurgis]

Imho Starky is a total cretin for trying to question it.

So you think there may be something to my last line, "are there situations where we are compelled to 'show respect'"?

[Marco]

The very fact that the OP could post this thread, the Mail could print that article and the guy with the fireworks wasn't executed is due to the sacrifices made by the allied servicemen.
So yes, we should be grateful and spending 2 minutes once a year remembering them isn't much to ask in return for the freedom (albeit diminishing) we enjoy today

I fully agree, but others are also entitled to an alternative view. Freedom of speech is one of the perks of living in a free country...;)

Marco.

[WESTLOWER]

So you think there may be something to my last line, "are there situations where we are compelled to 'show respect'"?

Yes there maybe something in he question,
I think it's just right to show respect, and to pass that on to the kids.
Sorry, thats not 'Poppy Facism'..

The insinuation those that do are just sheep and are morally forced to,
again isn't right or true.

If others wish to show their respect allow them to do so.
A total fucknut letting fireworks off to disrupt it, IMHO needs a shoeing.

I don't think the 'Poppy Facism' question has validity, it's just posed for reaction.

[Joe]

I'd have thought that, as well as remembering the sacrifices made by those who died fighting for their country, Remembrance should also be about remembering what caused the war(s) in which they died, and how best we can avoid such conflicts. Which makes it particularly nauseating to see pond-life like Farage making political capital out of portraying our fellow-Europeans as 'the enemy', and posing for a photo-op next to a cannon draped in poppies. Dr Johnson's comment about patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel spring to mind.

[Joe]

I don't think the 'Poppy Facism' question has validity, it's just posed for reaction.

'He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases'.

[Marco]

How apt! Shall I make that your new user title?;)

Marco.

[Joe]

No.

[Alex_UK]

Remembrance should also be about remembering what caused the war(s) in which they died, and how best we can avoid such conflicts.

Totally agree with that point. Dictators don't just rise up and the nation follows them - the process if far more subtle than that...

[Marco]

No.

:D

Spoilsport!

Marco.

[Marco]

Totally agree with that point. Dictators don't just rise up and the nation follows them - the process if far more subtle than that...

Let's remember too, that if weren't for those who lost their lives so tragically in war, fighting for our freedom, it's likely that none of us would be here conducting this discussion!;)

Marco.

[Joe]

:D

Spoilsport!

Marco.

Though you could maybe change the thread title to 'Remembrance day "Poppy Fascism"?', as there's no such word as 'facism'.

[Marco]

Done!

Marco.

[Joe]

Done!

Marco.

Excellent!

[struth]

Ive seen it spelled that way in the US. oddly, even in legal docs....Mind You the Yanks spelling leaves a lot to be desired.

[Gaz]

I think we need to remember that the modern day definition of a fascist is anyone disagreeing with the looney left pc brigade

[prestonchipfryer]

I think we need to remember that the modern day definition of a fascist is anyone disagreeing with the looney left pc brigade

:)

[Barry]

I think we need to remember that the modern day definition of a fascist is anyone disagreeing with the looney left pc brigade

It is not a 'modern day' definition, but an mis-appropriation of the word.

[Joe]

I think we need to remember that the modern day definition of a fascist is anyone disagreeing with the looney left pc brigade

Not a new concern. Here's George Orwell, writing in 1944:

I have seen the words ‘Fascist in sympathy’, or ‘of Fascist tendency’, or just plain ‘Fascist’, applied in all seriousness to the following bodies of people:

Conservatives: All Conservatives, appeasers or anti-appeasers, are held to be subjectively pro-Fascist. British rule in India and the Colonies is held to be indistinguishable from Nazism. Organizations of what one might call a patriotic and traditional type are labelled crypto-Fascist or ‘Fascist-minded’. Examples are the Boy Scouts, the Metropolitan Police, M.I.5, the British Legion. Key phrase: ‘The public schools are breeding-grounds of Fascism’.

Socialists: Defenders of old-style capitalism (example, Sir Ernest Benn) maintain that Socialism and Fascism are the same thing. Some Catholic journalists maintain that Socialists have been the principal collaborators in the Nazi-occupied countries. The same accusation is made from a different angle by the Communist party during its ultra-Left phases. In the period 1930-35 the Daily Worker habitually referred to the Labour Party as the Labour Fascists. This is echoed by other Left extremists such as Anarchists. Some Indian Nationalists consider the British trade unions to be Fascist organizations.

Communists: A considerable school of thought (examples, Rauschning, Peter Drucker, James Burnham, F. A. Voigt) refuses to recognize a difference between the Nazi and Soviet régimes, and holds that all Fascists and Communists are aiming at approximately the same thing and are even to some extent the same people. Leaders in The Times (pre-war) have referred to the U.S.S.R. as a ‘Fascist country’. Again from a different angle this is echoed by Anarchists and Trotskyists.

Trotskyists: Communists charge the Trotskyists proper, i.e. Trotsky's own organization, with being a crypto-Fascist organization in Nazi pay. This was widely believed on the Left during the Popular Front period. In their ultra-Right phases the Communists tend to apply the same accusation to all factions to the Left of themselves, e.g. Common Wealth or the I.L.P.

Catholics: Outside its own ranks, the Catholic Church is almost universally regarded as pro-Fascist, both objectively and subjectively;

War resisters: Pacifists and others who are anti-war are frequently accused not only of making things easier for the Axis, but of becoming tinged with pro-Fascist feeling.

Supporters of the war: War resisters usually base their case on the claim that British imperialism is worse than Nazism, and tend to apply the term ‘Fascist’ to anyone who wishes for a military victory. The supporters of the People's Convention came near to claiming that willingness to resist a Nazi invasion was a sign of Fascist sympathies. The Home Guard was denounced as a Fascist organization as soon as it appeared. In addition, the whole of the Left tends to equate militarism with Fascism. Politically conscious private soldiers nearly always refer to their officers as ‘Fascist-minded’ or ‘natural Fascists’. Battle-schools, spit and polish, saluting of officers are all considered conducive to Fascism. Before the war, joining the Territorials was regarded as a sign of Fascist tendencies. Conscription and a professional army are both denounced as Fascist phenomena.

Nationalists: Nationalism is universally regarded as inherently Fascist, but this is held only to apply to such national movements as the speaker happens to disapprove of. Arab nationalism, Polish nationalism, Finnish nationalism, the Indian Congress Party, the Muslim League, Zionism, and the I.R.A. are all described as Fascist but not by the same people.'

[montesquieu]

The perfect all-purpose insult then.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAJlmnv3KKM