PDA

View Full Version : Beresford Caiman DAC keeps getting better



magiccarpetride
12-06-2010, 04:20
I know, I know, people are getting sick and tired of hearing this... But still, I am here to tell you that, my god, the Caiman just keeps getting better!

OK, this time I took some pain to make sure nothing changes in my system and in my listening room while I continue the Caiman burn-in. All else being equal, the DAC keeps pulling more and more out of the same tracks I keep comparatively listening to. We're now approaching the six weeks milestone...

For example, Ernie Lake "I Feel You Too". Both my wife and I know that song by heart, as we've been listening to it since 2006 (it being one of our favorite tracks). Just played it again today to my wife, and we both froze as if seeing a ghost. By golly, there's suddenly so much more revealed in this song! The deep male vocal mumbling during the opening, so many other new sounds and sighs throughout the song. How's that possible? We've just listened to it on Monday, and didn't hear almost 20% of the additional music that we're hearing today!

Many other tracks keep revealing the same shocking surprises. As the time passes by, we get to enjoy more and more in the old familiar music.

This experience is very similar to weeding the garden (which is something my wife and I have just been doing for the past week). You keep pulling the weeds out, and with each new effort, you rediscover more and more of your real, underlying garden. All of a sudden, you realize there's so much beauty in there that was just masked by the vile weeds.

Same is with the maturing of this DAC. It just keeps removing the 'weeds' (i.e. the noise and the distortion) from the music, thus revealing the true beauty of the signal hidden in the digital files.

It is shocking how much music is actually buried deep into the properly mastered red book CDs. But in addition to this reckless precision, this DAC is also making everything sound so analogue-like. Everything is so well rounded, warm, smooth, silky. Nothing grates the ear, and there is progressively less and less of the dreaded listening fatigue.

OK, I'm off the soap box now:)

John
12-06-2010, 05:19
Yep a good DAC makes a huge difference

Covenant
12-06-2010, 07:15
Alex you really really really must consider getting the modifications done. Its not expensive, especially if you can source a 15v linear supply locally. I am expecting my Beresford back today, its had the Elna capacitors fitted plus 12k resistor and circuit shortening mod done:). It would be less expensive for you because I have sent mine off three times and have paid a fair bit for secure delivery.
I think you will be impressed to say the least.

AlanS
12-06-2010, 22:55
I know, I know, people are getting sick and tired of hearing this.


But it is still a hoot to read.
20% more in 4 days, shocking discoveries after 6 weeks,
ghosts,
reckless precision (love that one),
less and less of the dreaded listening fatigue,
weed effects.
I wonder what 3 months will yield.

Labarum
13-06-2010, 09:10
I do wonder if Stan's good science and engineering is being devalued by all these claims.

As I said, I use it as he sent it to me.

StanleyB
13-06-2010, 09:25
It depends. A 3dB increase in sound level or S/N ratio equates to a 100% increase. As you no doubt remember Brian, even you were sceptical about the alleged improvements my DAC could make to your existing audio set up. If memory serves my right, that view was changed within a minute of you switching it on :).
My money back guarantee has been one reason why so many have taken the plunge and bought one of my DACs against their better judgement, only for them to have to shake their heads in disbelieve that the claims were valid after all :).

AlanS
13-06-2010, 09:28
I do wonder if Stan's good science and engineering is being devalued by all these claims.



You dont suppose it is a competitor trying to reduce credibility? I think it is starting to look counter productive. How many 3db improvements can you get in 6 weeks >18db?

roob
13-06-2010, 10:07
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:

The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2010, 10:18
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:

He already does, it's in his signature!

Themis
13-06-2010, 10:28
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:
Well, I guess that this is true with every single dac in the market, isn't it ? ;)

roob
13-06-2010, 10:48
You can always rely on a delusional fanboy to raise a smile on a grey Sunday morning.:)

StanleyB
13-06-2010, 10:54
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:
The word 'best' has so many interpretations. It's all relative :). But if it is taken too serious, then I suggest that one grabs one's coat and goes out for some fresh air:).

AlanS
13-06-2010, 11:45
So Alex/Magic do you like the Alan Partridge character, Steve Coogan the comedian or just like the picture as an avatar?

magiccarpetride
13-06-2010, 14:53
So Alex/Magic do you like the Alan Partridge character, Steve Coogan the comedian or just like the picture as an avatar?

I like Alan Partridge.

magiccarpetride
13-06-2010, 14:55
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:

Intelligent people do not allow themselves to get caught in the linear thinking.

The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2010, 14:59
I think like an onion - cyclically and with many layers!
I'd like to tell you what that means but I need to wait for the idea to come around again ...

The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2010, 15:00
... Oh hold on, sorry I thought this was my balderdash and piffle thread for a second there!

magiccarpetride
13-06-2010, 15:03
I do wonder if Stan's good science and engineering is being devalued by all these claims.

We live in the age of skepticism. People think that anyone who's not extremely skeptical is a fool. But these are the same people who, even if their life depended on it, can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi, Blu ray and DVD, Toyota and BMW, good meal and McDonalds, great sounding system and a shitty boombox. But in the end, the joke is on them.

I once met an 'audiophile' guy who was raving about the analog-like warmth of his high-end audio system. Turns out his tweeters were completely shot, so the highs were nicely 'rolled-off' :mental:. It is clueless morons like that one who create confusion and give this hobby a bad name.

The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2010, 15:27
We live in the age of skepticism. People think that anyone who's not extremely skeptical is a fool.

yeah, right on ...

Open mindedness wins out everytime for me, there is no definitive answer to anything in my books, how anyone can rely solely on scientific facts as they currently stand is in my books doing them selves an injustice. All possibilties have to be taken into account before any conclusion can even be vaguly rested upon.
In my case I rarely rest on anything as a fixed idea or truth, it's much harder to go back on an idea when you fix your mind on it... Instead I choose to let the world give me ideas, clues and hints to my surroundings, take any evidence on board and let my self live in a vague existance of half understanding - happy in the knowledge that I am never likely to fully understand anything. That way I can get on with my life chuckleing to my self at those who spend thier entire lives trying to understand! That's the big joke of it all you know... I'm fairly certain everyone gets let in on it at some stage!

AlanS
13-06-2010, 17:04
Intelligent people do not allow themselves to get caught in the linear thinking.

Like my new stylus may burn in for a short while but then it starts to burn out?

If Stans 3db improvement in noise threshhold explains your hearing things unheared on Monday then 6 weeks of 3db improvements makes 18db or more since you had it - 600%. That in turn means it must have been very muffled when you first had it. I bet StanB uses some linear thinking along the way.
Weeds left cover garden.
Theres nowt wrong with a bit of linear thinking, it's what makes our kit get produced.

StanleyB
13-06-2010, 17:14
Like my new stylus may burn in for a short while but then it starts to burn out?

If Stans 3db improvement in noise threshhold explains your hearing things unheared on Monday then 6 weeks of 3db improvements makes 18db or more since you had it - 600%. That in turn means it must have been very muffled when you first had it. I bet StanB uses some linear thinking along the way.
Weeds left cover garden.
Theres nowt wrong with a bit of linear thinking, it's what makes our kit get produced.
Unfortunately your thinking is non-linear, but well off the track and in the bushes :lolsign:. Perhaps you should go slow on the weed :eyebrows:.

Themis
13-06-2010, 19:45
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that Alex is happy with the Caiman. :)

And, even if I don't grasp the "continuous improvement" concept, I don't mind his enthusiasm about his purchase. ;)

StanleyB
13-06-2010, 20:26
Not all improvements are necessarily from the DAC itself.
As I have discovered from years of repairing and designing things, if the signal upstream has a better output, the equipment upstream gets to burn in a bit more from its regular state. I put it down to the increased I/V stresses that some components undergo in say the amp and the speakers. So they experience a new plateau of burn in perhaps.

magiccarpetride
13-06-2010, 21:42
Unfortunately your thinking is non-linear, but well off the track and in the bushes :lolsign:. Perhaps you should go slow on the weed :eyebrows:.

What we need to allow for is that, in my case, this may well be it. Meaning, perhaps this was the last hooray as far as the Caiman burn-in goes (I'm pushing the 1,000 hours boundary as we speak). Who's to say? I'm not making any assumptions that, since I've been experiencing a pretty steady improvement in the sound quality for the past five weeks, that the trend will necessarily continue indefinitely into the future (that would be a bone-headed case of linear thinking).

Better to assume that the honeymoon is, for all intents and purposes, over, and then perhaps be pleasantly surprised (yet again!) down the road:)

magiccarpetride
13-06-2010, 21:47
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that Alex is happy with the Caiman. :)

And, even if I don't grasp the "continuous improvement" concept, I don't mind his enthusiasm about his purchase. ;)

I'm not claiming that I grasp the "continuous improvement" concept either. I'm just reporting events from the field, so to speak. I can't pretend that I'm not hearing new details when they're obviously freshly emerging from the old familiar mixes. To fortify my findings even more, I have testimonials from my wife, who can also very plainly hear new, never before heard music emanating from the dusty old tracks. Brand new things keep emerging as the Caiman (and, as Stan mentioned, other components) get gradually settled in. That's an undeniable fact!

I don't explain them, I just hear them:)

Peter Galbavy
14-06-2010, 09:48
When it comes to burn-in I am a complete cynic. I can believe in changes in behaviour over time - note this does NOT mean for the better - in mechanical systems such as speaker drivers etc. I have also read enough about the changes to certain types of capacitors to have less skeptisim there but I will refuse point blank to believe that cables and ICs change over time in any way except for breaking

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 16:04
Alex you really really really must consider getting the modifications done. Its not expensive, especially if you can source a 15v linear supply locally. I am expecting my Beresford back today, its had the Elna capacitors fitted plus 12k resistor and circuit shortening mod done:). It would be less expensive for you because I have sent mine off three times and have paid a fair bit for secure delivery.
I think you will be impressed to say the least.

Thanks Jerry, I've been hearing a lot about the Caiman mods and the substantial improvements they bring. Two things come to mind:

1. Not sure how to go about pursuing the mods (me not being very handy with the soldering kit:) Do I send the DAC back to Stan?

2. Will the mods require a fresh new burn-in?

Also, at this point I'm so enamored with the Caiman, that I cannot envision parting with it. I've tried switching to other DACs and they all sound either too grainy, or too clinical, cold, and non-musical compared to the Caiman.

I guess I must start saving money and get me a spare Caiman that I can play with. Stan, Stan, what have you done man...

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 16:08
When it comes to burn-in I am a complete cynic. I can believe in changes in behaviour over time - note this does NOT mean for the better - in mechanical systems such as speaker drivers etc. I have also read enough about the changes to certain types of capacitors to have less skeptisim there but I will refuse point blank to believe that cables and ICs change over time in any way except for breaking

Cynical is the right word. I remember how I used to think that this entire burn-in charade was just a marketing gimmick for the vendors to get you glued to their product (I was being a hardened cynic). I thought that, if you purchase the DAC, and you don't like it and want your money back, the marketeers just explain to you "oh, it needs 900 hours burn-in time, trust me, it's gonna sound marvelous after a couple of months".

However, Stan's no bull money return policy reassured me that maybe there's some worth to the burn-in claim. So I gave it a shot. The rest, as they say, is history...

Seeing is believing, and hearing is a bitch :eyebrows:

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 16:19
Not all improvements are necessarily from the DAC itself.
As I have discovered from years of repairing and designing things, if the signal upstream has a better output, the equipment upstream gets to burn in a bit more from its regular state. I put it down to the increased I/V stresses that some components undergo in say the amp and the speakers. So they experience a new plateau of burn in perhaps.

To take things to their extreme limits, I would also add that there is a learning process that factors in. This is purely subjective, but I'm discovering that this burn-in process has been very educational for me. In other words, thanks to the clarity and the musicality that is gradually being revealed to me, I am now learning how to properly listen to the recorded music. I am discovering that what I used to think was a stellar music reproduction was more of a 'feature' (read: distortion). Now that the Caiman is presenting the music in the new, more natural light, I'm starting to learn how the music should actually sound when reproduced at home.

This is similar to going to an art gallery and viewing the exhibited masterpieces. Imagine if all the artwork was presented to us under some garish blue fluorescent light. We'd form a completely distorted picture about those masterpieces. Imagine now that the repair crew starts gradually replacing those godawful garish dark blue light bulbs with high quality, more naturally glowing light bulbs. Slowly, while going through that process, we gain new appreciation for the exhibited artwork, as we learn more and more how to really view and admire those masterpieces.

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 17:51
Well if the improvements carry on at the previous rate in twelve months time you will own the best dac ever built :rolleyes:

What will I own in 24 months time?

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 17:56
yeah, right on ...

Open mindedness wins out everytime for me, there is no definitive answer to anything in my books, how anyone can rely solely on scientific facts as they currently stand is in my books doing them selves an injustice. All possibilties have to be taken into account before any conclusion can even be vaguly rested upon.
In my case I rarely rest on anything as a fixed idea or truth, it's much harder to go back on an idea when you fix your mind on it... Instead I choose to let the world give me ideas, clues and hints to my surroundings, take any evidence on board and let my self live in a vague existance of half understanding - happy in the knowledge that I am never likely to fully understand anything. That way I can get on with my life chuckleing to my self at those who spend thier entire lives trying to understand! That's the big joke of it all you know... I'm fairly certain everyone gets let in on it at some stage!

It's like making love. What's to understand there? If you enjoy it, no one can come up to you and explain to you how you are being delusional and how this love making is just some hyped up crap. No one would even try a thing like that, knowing full well that you'd laugh in their face.

So why are some people here trying to persuade others that their enjoyment in the reproduced music is bogus? That's bullshit, at least in my book. And I will continue to laugh in their faces, because it is them who are clueless.

magiccarpetride
14-06-2010, 18:04
Like my new stylus may burn in for a short while but then it starts to burn out?

If Stans 3db improvement in noise threshhold explains your hearing things unheared on Monday then 6 weeks of 3db improvements makes 18db or more since you had it - 600%. That in turn means it must have been very muffled when you first had it. I bet StanB uses some linear thinking along the way.
Weeds left cover garden.
Theres nowt wrong with a bit of linear thinking, it's what makes our kit get produced.

I'm calling bullshit on this 3 dB improvement. Don't care about that at all. The undeniable fact remains that things keep changing for the better with each passing day. Can't explain why, just know that I'm enjoying the journey tremendously:)

I fully acknowledge that there are those who cannot detect that process of continuing improvement, even if they gave the Caiman a world. There are two possible explanations:

1. The rest of their gear is not as revealing as my gear is, so any improvements that the Caiman may offer are lost in the downstream shuffle.

2. They cannot hear real differences in a differently reproduced music (to verify that, they could subject themselves to the double-blind test comparing lossless red book CD to the lossy mp3 of the same track; I've witnessed a lot of people who are simply incapable of hearing any difference between these two formats; it is highly doubtful that those people would be capable of detecting the gradual burn-in improvements).

AlanS
16-06-2010, 11:52
Alex

When listening to your music/system/DAC how much does the volume get changed. You know what I mean, by recording level of the music, time of day, you or the wifes mood, visitors, even the weather. So does the volume control stay fixed day to day or does it get varied for the previous or any other reasons?

Do you like it LOUD like a concert level, vary it as above or what?

Reason for asking is I am still, fool that I am, trying to work out what (other then the DAC is burning in) affects how you heard the music from your system. See I can understand you associating improvements with fitting the DAC (it is a recognised change point), I can accept the DAC will settle in somewhat and that it is fairly revealing of sources in a subtle way. Also understand that your speakers are very revealing more so than most cone/coil types, comparable to electrostatics in some ways. Very little gets hidden due to speaker shortcomings.

I have an unidentifed CD player (second hand) on long term loan due to the owner being elsewhere and listening to my music on that has opened my eyes to what is on the disk and how well it has been recorded. I listen to the same CD another day and I hear something else I have not heard before. Without the dramatic style you use to describe your discoveries I could be posting that I have heard something not previously recognised/heard on the CD but I would not ascribe it to burnin of the CD player. Yes this loaned CD player is a lot better than my own Cyrus, it has 2 DACs I believe. Put the same CD back in the Cyrus and the music is just not the same.

I reckon some of us listen like we view a landscape, not focusing on everything because it would be too much for us to do, but settling on bits that take our attention. That is how I explain hearing things not noticed before.

This does not make such good reading or raise the profile of the product as well of course. Sorry to piss on your beliefs about burnin. Enjoy your music (and DAC)

magiccarpetride
16-06-2010, 15:23
Alex

When listening to your music/system/DAC how much does the volume get changed. You know what I mean, by recording level of the music, time of day, you or the wifes mood, visitors, even the weather. So does the volume control stay fixed day to day or does it get varied for the previous or any other reasons?

Do you like it LOUD like a concert level, vary it as above or what?

Reason for asking is I am still, fool that I am, trying to work out what (other then the DAC is burning in) affects how you heard the music from your system. See I can understand you associating improvements with fitting the DAC (it is a recognised change point), I can accept the DAC will settle in somewhat and that it is fairly revealing of sources in a subtle way. Also understand that your speakers are very revealing more so than most cone/coil types, comparable to electrostatics in some ways. Very little gets hidden due to speaker shortcomings.

I have an unidentifed CD player (second hand) on long term loan due to the owner being elsewhere and listening to my music on that has opened my eyes to what is on the disk and how well it has been recorded. I listen to the same CD another day and I hear something else I have not heard before. Without the dramatic style you use to describe your discoveries I could be posting that I have heard something not previously recognised/heard on the CD but I would not ascribe it to burnin of the CD player. Yes this loaned CD player is a lot better than my own Cyrus, it has 2 DACs I believe. Put the same CD back in the Cyrus and the music is just not the same.

I reckon some of us listen like we view a landscape, not focusing on everything because it would be too much for us to do, but settling on bits that take our attention. That is how I explain hearing things not noticed before.

This does not make such good reading or raise the profile of the product as well of course. Sorry to piss on your beliefs about burnin. Enjoy your music (and DAC)

Alan,

I never touch the volume knob. It always stays put, so there is no way that varying loudness could play any role in our detecting improvements in the sound quality.

I've also made sure that, in the past few weeks, we didn't make any changes to our listening conditions. No moving of the furniture in the room etc.

Despite all the other factors staying the same, the sound still keeps getting better. I can buy your explanation that a lot of the 'discovery' may be due to the selective focusing on various aspects of the recording (your foreground vs background picture viewing bit). That is a real possibility. The only thing is, I've never experienced it before, even though I've been listening to those tracks for years and years, with my undivided attention.

It is only since I've plugged the Caiman in that I've started noticing this sound morphing phenomenon. Previously, I would change a component, and the sound would obviously change (most of the time for the better), and that would be it. It wouldn't continue to improve (or to degrade, as the case may be).

Ali Tait
16-06-2010, 17:54
Could all this possibly be down to a slightly dodgy cap gradually reforming?

Ashmore
16-06-2010, 21:41
I suspect Carpet's Caimen is possessed by a benign spirit. Wonder if Tirna can do that mod for me too.