Does anyone still listen to radio (DAB or FM)?

[dave2010]

I'm prompted by the recent posts on MP3 compression or similar to ask about radio usage. In the UK DAB radio is at best 192kbps Musicam (MP2), so definitely should not sound as good as 192kbps mp3. We know from the debacle a few years back that listeners definitely didn't like the reduction to 160 kbps (on Radio 3), causing the BBC to revert back to 192 kbps.

Other digital stations unfortunately don't use such high bit rates - the next highest being ClassicFM at 160 kbps Joint Stereo, and after that most are down at 128 kbps or less.

I even hear that some listeners still like FM, and some prefer it to DAB.

In this context maybe MP3s at high bit rates could be preferable to most forms of radio.

[Barry]

I'm prompted by the recent posts on MP3 compression or similar to ask about radio usage. In the UK DAB radio is at best 192kbps Musicam (MP2), so definitely should not sound as good as 192kbps mp3. We know from the debacle a few years back that listeners definitely didn't like the reduction to 160 kbps (on Radio 3), causing the BBC to revert back to 192 kbps.

Other digital stations unfortunately don't use such high bit rates - the next highest being ClassicFM at 160 kbps Joint Stereo, and after that most are down at 128 kbps or less.

I even hear that some listeners still like FM, and some prefer it to DAB.

In this context maybe MP3s at high bit rates could be preferable to most forms of radio.

Hi Dave,

We listen to FM radio every day we're at home. And have done so for the last thirty years!

There's absolutely no comparison between the monstrosity called DAB and FM radio.

I shall be listening to FM right up to the proposed switch off!

Regards

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Dave,

We listen to FM radio every day we're at home. And have done so for the last thirty years!

There's absolutely no comparison between the monstrosity called DAB and FM radio.

I shall be listening to FM right up to the proposed switch off!

Regards

+1

DAB is an act of cultural vandalism. If the once proud tradition of BBC engineering think its fit for purpose then how the mighty have fallen....sound quality does not matter any more DAB is shite.....:(

FM eats DAB. Even a mediocre FM radio sounds better than the best DAB radio I have heard. The best FM radios such as the Leak Trough-line, Revox, Quad, Pioneer, Sony and Sansui radios sound amazing :)




Regards D S D L

[Joe]

I listen to FM every day and I'm currently dipping my toe into the brave new world of internet radio. We have a DAB radio too but rarely use it.

[The Grand Wazoo]

FM for me.
Internet radio sometimes, but only for a few specific stations at times of extreme busyness or if I fancy some non-stop Zappa. It's for hearing, but never, ever for listening.

[Marco]

I even hear that some listeners still like FM, and some prefer it to DAB.


Yes it's just us idiots who, despite the government and BBC's continual 'dumbing-down' of broadcast material and sound quality, still possess the faculty for discernment! ;)

Marco.

[DrMartin]

FM everyday for me. Radio 2 mostly.

I haven't heard DAB through my system, only on a Roberts portable downstairs which I have to have plugged into the mains because for some reason these DAB radios seem to eat batteries. If that sort of excessive power consumption is across the board then there must be some sort of environmental objection to DAB?

[The Grand Wazoo]

I did a comparison of 4 or 5 tuners (some were the tuner sections of 70's Japanese receivers) with BBC Radio 3 and 4 on Freeview piped through my Accuphase DAC and the difference was obvious after about 1/2 a second.....maybe less.
The difference was substantial in every case, & based on that evidence, I won't be dumping my tuners yet.

[Spectral Morn]

I did a comparison of 4 or 5 tuners (some were the tuner sections of 70's Japanese receivers) with BBC Radio 3 and 4 on Freeview piped through my Accuphase DAC and the difference was obvious after about 1/2 a second.....maybe less.
The difference was substantial in every case, & based on that evidence, I won't be dumping my tuners yet.


Very much my findings too, using Sky and Free view feeding the digital signal to a high quality DAC. FM was vastly superior.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Let's face it, chaps, DAB and computer radio are simply yet more examples of convenience over quality in today's largely undiscerning 'disposable' society........

Marco.

[spendorman]

FM everyday for me. Radio 2 mostly.

I haven't heard DAB through my system, only on a Roberts portable downstairs which I have to have plugged into the mains because for some reason these DAB radios seem to eat batteries. If that sort of excessive power consumption is across the board then there must be some sort of environmental objection to DAB?

Yes, I had read that DAB radios tended to eat batteries, but also that the newer ones are better in that respect. My Creative DAB radio, although not that big, does not have battery facility only mains power, probably due to its high power consumption.

When I got the DAB radio I was quite impressed with the sound through the internal speakers until I tried LBC. It was atrocious. I genuinely thought that the radio had gone faulty. It was just the poor bit-rate of that station

Using the headphone output to my Quad 44, sound quality (on Radio3) was not bad at all, not too far behind the Quad FM4. However, because the time delay on the DAB radio, proper A/B testing was difficult.

One bonus of DAB, very little hiss.

But I must admit, the most frequently used radio here is a small Sony portable which picks up FM (and AM) quite nicely, has respectable sound through its small speaker and runs for many many hours on two rechargeable AA batteries.

[dave2010]

Neil and others

You are probably all aware of the following website - http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ The site owner is very active in radio issues.

Part of my motive for initiating this thread was simply to point out the forms of compression used in DAB and how this compares with MP3. It looks like there are other issues, and the response so far has been more than I expected.

Right now there is a silly situation as the previous government wanted to turn FM off around 2014-15, and the new government may relax slightly, but may still intend to do so if DAB sales/penetration increase. This means that you shouldn't buy a DAB set if you want to keep FM - which is mad, as despite its problems there may be some benefits in using DAB.

Personally I don't have such strong opinions in favour of FM. My own experience of FM is that at its best its good - but that requires a good aerial. Where I used to live I had a pretty good one, but now I haven't. My own tuners are a JVC TX55 (lovely) and a Sony 777ES DAB/FM/AM tuner - which in fairness does sound quite similar, though I still have a feeling that the JVC is better - maybe it isn't!

The best FM sound I have heard was actually from someone who made a recording from his tuner and put it on a CD to demonstrate the quality, and clearly his tuner is/was very good and his reception area (somewhere in Scotland) good.

For the sort of music I listen to FM often has too narrow a dynamic range and hiss is very apparent without using a very good aerial. Even then there can be interference. In the London area interference and pirate stations are a big problem.

DAB, on the other hand generally suffers little from major interference, and the dynamic range is good. However the sound quality quite often leaves something to be desired. Under some weather conditions the DAB signal can become unmanageable. Rather than being either wholly on, or wholly off, which we were originally led to believe, it oscillates somewhere between, with the consequent bubbling mud noises. I am aware that some people, even in the London area have problems with DAB, simply because of hills, and despite the supposed superiority of DAB regarding multi-path problens some of my friends and colleagues have said that reception varies between DAB and FM - for example near Kingston, where there are hills.

DAB does has the advantage that some tuners, such as mine, have an optical output. The results if I feed the output through my Caiman are not bad. This is not usually possible with FM units, so analogue links are the order of the day there. Actually what I don't know - someone else might - in the case of the Sony or similar DAB units, is the optical digital output effectively a digital representation of the transport stream? In that case when I listen to DAB via my Caiman, I may be getting the benefit of a better DAC than in the tuner. On the other hand, if the Sony converts, then reconverts the data back to SPDIF that might not be the case. Does that make sense?

My current view is that DAB is not good enough, and the government, Ofcom and the BBC are being either misguided or devious in continuing to promote it. If they stick with DAB as it is now, it is clearly not as good as it should be. If they move to a newer digital system (DAB+, DRM, DMB for example) are they going to pretend that it's still DAB. I suspect they may be going to go for something a bit like DAB+, but just conveniently pretend that it's the same as the old DAB. DAB+, for example, has the capability for better sound quality, but unfortunately it also has the capability to squeeze even more lower quality stations into the available bandwidth. Commercial pressures may drive broadcasters to more rather than better, as they have done in the past. On the other hand, by the UK authorities sitting on the fence, or at least not jumping over it for a while, it is possible that eventually something substantially better could come along. In the meantime I'd expect a lot more development in internet downloads and streaming, though these are still not really convenient enough for most people to use.

Sorry if you disagree with the last sentence of the last paragraph, but radios can usually be taken out of the box, plugged in, or batteries put in, and then turned on - usually less than 5 mins. Internet radios often require IP addresses, DNS servers etc. to be set up. Most people wouldn't have a clue. It took me 20 minutes to set up my new Squeezebox Boom, and I'd already got a SB3 so knew what I was letting myself in for. Even now it still sometimes loses the local connection, and I have to reset the IPs. That would drive my wife mad, and many others would also find it hard. Internet radios have to become easier to use for the masses.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Dave

Nice well balanced post.

Your question about the DAC in your Sony Dab radio is a very astute one but alas I don't have the answer, though there may be an answer in a review of it. I might have one somewhere I think HIFI news did a review and I have most of them for the last 10 years or so.

Strangely I have always found DAB radios to be very fussy about the aerial they are hooked up to, whereas FM radios work well here on a bit of wire. I am based about 7 miles, as the crow flys from the main transmitter but still found the addition of a proper aerial a real boost to FM sound quality. However the bit of wire still gave good silent results on all stations. But that will depend on the tuner being used as there is a fair bit of variation between them, with some better than others.

I think this is the real issue at heart for all technology that requires transmission and pick up, there are just so many variables for that to work well, both in the home and where you live.

The digitisation of analogue signals is not an issue for me (as I don't ever do it) but ADC are available if you want to record digitally, an analogue signal. However many of us here (AOS) would generally favour the quality of analogue output signals as they are and would not seek to make them digital.

Thank you for an interesting post.


Regards D S D L

[Barry]

Excellent post Dave.

I have no objection to digital techniques per se. I am unhappy with the fact that the BBC seemed to have reneged on the bit rates they promised. Originally it was supposed to have been 256bps, then was soon reduced to a still acceptable 192bps. 192bps is only now used for the occasional live performance and for the Proms; both on Radio 3. I believe a bit rate of something like 128bps is used for all else.

I'm sure that DAB could be further developed, so that not only the 'little portable in the kitchen', but the tuner forming part of an audio system will provide acceptable quality.

What really gets my goat is that all this is being foisted on us, without the incentive of better quality. When 625 line TV was introduced, yes you needed a new set to watch BBC2, but the picture quality was better. Also, for those viewers who were content to watch BBC1 or ITV on their 405 line sets, they could do so. The 405 line transmissions were eventually switched off nearly twenty years after the introduction of 625 lines. Not so with FM/DAB it would seem!

Regards

[Barry]

Whilst we are discussing the pros and cons of DAB radio v. FM radio, I should like to remind readers of the 90th anniversary of the world's first live concert broadcast.

The original broadcast was made by Dame Nellie Melba, the famous Australian opera singer (after whom Peach Melba and Melba toast are named) and took place on 15th June 1920. In those days the 'studio' and the transmitter were on the same site: the Marconi factory at New Street in Chelmsford.

Apparently, when she was told by a technician that the 300' mast (?) would allow people to hear her, Nellie Melba is said to have replied: "Young man, if you think that I'm going to climb all the way up that mast, you can think again!"

Reminds me of the directions printed on the cartons of the early incandescent light bulbs: "No match or taper required"!

Regards

[ReggieB]

Heretic number one stepping forward. I like DAB. It's easy and has given me access to a lot of content that I wouldn't have listened to otherwise. I admit that for me Radio is a secondary source, and that I tend to listen mostly to the spoken word via radio (love BBC 7). It's a shame that the quality isn't potentially as good FM, but it's good enough for what I want.

[dave2010]

Barry

I believe a bit rate of something like 128bps is used for all else.The BBC use 160kbps for Radio 3 when they reduce the rate, otherwise it's 192kbps. At 160kbps I think they now use Stereo mode, but they have played with using Joint Stereo at both 192kbps and 160kbps. Other channels generally use 128 kbps, and in fairness, although this is reasonably satisfactory for Radio 4 which is mostly speech, and some of the others, some of the other music oriented channels would benefit if higher bit rates were used. Some of the channels are at 80 or even 64 kbps, and Radio 4 sometimes drops to 80 kbps in Mono!

I'm sure that DAB could be further developed, so that not only the 'little portable in the kitchen', but the tuner forming part of an audio system will provide acceptable quality.Newer DAB sets are likely to be DAB+ compatible. DAB+ should work better on lower bit rate channels which would be appropriate for Radio 7, Radio 5, annd even Radio 4 most of the time, etc. Arguably 128 kbps rates in DAB+ would be as good as 192 kbps in DAB - since it uses AAC I think. DAB is being reviewed or even abandoned in other countries. There are several other possible digital contenders, including DAB+ and DMB, and there is also the possibility of DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale) on AM channels, and possibly also on FM. Most of these are capable of operating as Single Frequency Networks - which requires some quite clever synchronising in the distribution network.

I take your point about 405 line TV. Besides the DAB vs FM issue, there may also be a DAB vs DAB issue, as if DAB+ or DMB (which the BBC and others may choose to call DAB) services replace DAB, then some older equipment, such as my Sony tuner, will not be compatible with New DAB. They might do some sort of compromise, such as keeping DAB as it is now for Radio 3 - who knows?

I'm not sure if FM will die completely as it might be used to provide local radio services, and if that's the case, they may also broadcast national programmes, but not all the time.

Note that the recent House of Lords recommendation was to be more cautious, and may delay any switchover. If you don't want FM to go, I suggest that you keep writing to your MPs etc., and lobbying from time to time. The new government may lose the will to fight for DAB if it decides there's significant opposition.

[ZebuTheOxen]

Note that the recent House of Lords recommendation was to be more cautious, and may delay any switchover. If you don't want FM to go, I suggest that you keep writing to your MPs etc., and lobbying from time to time. The new government may lose the will to fight for DAB if it decides there's significant opposition.
I think DAB is just a poor technology, pushed through with political incentive.

The move away from FM will happen eventually, what we have to ensure is that we end up with a radio system better than DAB. Nearer to CD quality(Or better even!) would be ideal.

The resulting gap in the frequency spectrum would allow all sorts of lovely new wireless services which would benefit all forms of media and communication.

I often listen to Radio 4 for comedies on DAB, and find it increasingly difficult to make out several voices talking at once with the lower bit rates.

[dave2010]

ZebuTO
I think DAB is just a poor technology, pushed through with political incentiveI get suspicious when I see political motives ascribed. What political incentives exactly do you think apply here?

I suspect DAB started as a project in a few labs(BBC, Fraunhofer etc.), and the reason it's not as good as it should be is that it was released too early, and the technology available at the time wasn't mature enough. I don't think it was anything other than a mistake. Also, I don't believe it's poor technology, just nothing like as good as it could/should be.


The move away from FM will happen eventually, what we have to ensure is that we end up with a radio system better than DAB. Nearer to CD quality(Or better even!) would be ideal.Possibly, though AM is still flourishing. Why does there have to be a move away from FM? Many cars still have the brake and clutch pedal arrangement which has been around a long time.


The resulting gap in the frequency spectrum would allow all sorts of lovely new wireless services which would benefit all forms of media and communication.Is it really that significant? Also, wouldn't it be hijacked by others? I hear that at present there are actually no plans to sell of the spectrum or to use it. What do you envisage?


I often listen to Radio 4 for comedies on DAB, and find it increasingly difficult to make out several voices talking at once with the lower bit rates.I haven't noticed this being a problem. Wouldn't this also be a problem on FM?

[dave2010]

Reggie
Heretic number one stepping forward. I like DAB. It's easy and has given me access to a lot of content that I wouldn't have listened to otherwise. I admit that for me Radio is a secondary source, and that I tend to listen mostly to the spoken word via radio (love BBC 7). It's a shame that the quality isn't potentially as good FM, but it's good enough for what I want.I don't blame you if it works for you. Mostly it works for us too, for non music sources, and we use it a lot in the kitchen. However, today it's barely working at all - truly horrible noises. Not sure what's causing this - low signal, weather conditions? I've tried moving the set around, but apart from holding up in the air - which I don't intend to do for long - the results remain bad.

Haven't tried FM today, but may have to fall back on it later. Today's first line fallback was the Squeezebox Boom, which isn't great at 48 kbps streaming, but was better than the DAB on this occasion (Monday 14th June).

The channel affected was BBC Radio 4. DAB does seem to be going off in our area recently, and I've not managed to get a decent signal for my DAB tuner for some while, and haven't had the time or patience to sort it out. Perhaps I'll look into this when the immediate work panic passes in a couple of weeks. It's bad that portable units are affected though, as they should work without an external aerial.

DAB or Son of DAB - whatever that might turn out to be - will have to do a lot better than this to be a countrywide success. We have several rather good DAB sets, and one not so good one (which doesn't work well with weak signals), but they're all affected now.

[trailer]

I can't receive DAB where I live so I use a Sky>DAC for radio lstening. It is very good too.
The new Sky HD boxes have two digital outs, optical & co-ax so you have a bit more flexibility. Unfortunately you can't assign one to stereo and the other to DD5.1. It's all or nothing so you have to be careful on switching channels/sources.

[Krisbee]

Although my Rotel tuner is no longer in use, I have a Roberts portable downstairs, a Roberts personal sports radio and a bashed up 40 year old trannie in the bathroom. And listen to BBC Radio 4, 3 and 5 at various times of the day. A switch from FM to DAB spells disaster to me. So I have three devices which will turn into useless junk supposedly in the name of progress. :(

As to quality, the way the BBC have messed around with rates seems to say it all and doesn't even compete with some Internet radio stations like cesky d-dur.

People here may have the technical savvy to make the most of digital sources, but spare a thought for all those FM radio lovers our there who will become the dispossessed.

P.S. Do vuvuzelas sound any better on DAB?

[Alex_UK]

a bashed up 40 year old trannie in the bathroom.

:eek: don't try googling that for God's sake!

Sorry, I couldn't resit... That did make me laugh!

My biggest worry is my cars, which I have no intention of changing any time soon - in my main car it is integrated with the Sat-Nav system, which will become junk when FM goes unless you buy some sort of additional digital tuner, I suppose, but why should I have to?

[trailer]

:eek: don't try googling that for God's sake!



I did out of interest and got "Warton Stock Car Club Homepage" :stalks:

[colinB]

I was mug enough to be taken in by DAB during its frenzied hype and bought a Cambridge audio unit for £200 only to find my Humax freeview box sounds better and thats without a DAC or a decent aerial:steam: