SME 3009R: anything to watch out for when buying s/h?

[Rosewind]

I was just offered an SME 3009R and would like to know what sort of things to look out for if I go to have a look at it.

1) Potential issues with s/h SME 3009R tonearms?

2) The bearing: nylon --> steel --> bronze - which is the best?

3) Tonearm base material?

4) Would it be a good match for my Benz Micro Gullwing SLR even on my Thorens TD 147 Jubilee?

Thanks!

Here are a few photos sent to me by the seller who has it mounted on a Micro Seiki DQX 500:

https://i.imgur.com/1LWP0CGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pUG1J3al.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J585p2Ll.jpg

[Rosewind]

Oh. Nevermind.
The guy who approached me for a trade, had put his SME 3009R up for sale in Denmark and when we were negotiating a trade, he had removed his advert and was requesting a higher trade value for his SME 3009R against my phono stage. He was the one who approached me. Oh well.

[Barry]

Somewhat post hoc, but I would avoid any SME arm fitted with nylon bearings. There is some debate as to whether steel or bronze is the better material, but most agree that either is an improvement over nylon.

[Jazid]

Someone with business ethics like that wouldn't be above forgetting to mention a fault or two. Lucky escape I'd say.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Rosewind]

I know that you can have the arm serviced and upgraded with bronze bearings in Germany. That is what I would have done.

[tlscapital]

I know that you can have the arm serviced and upgraded with bronze bearings in Germany. That is what I would have done.

This is a SME3009 'R' model. They are of the medium toward heavy effective mass tonearm. As such they would match medium toward low compliant cartridges.

About the knife edge bearing, this one seemed to be of the nylon kind judging by it's matt look from the poor quality photos. Original SME's where all either steel or nylon.

The SME 3009 SII & 2 series are all aluminium tube/wand and prefer a steel knife edge bearing. The 3009 'R' tube/wand is steel. Steel tube/wand should benefit from a bronze knife edge bearing.

[tlscapital]

Oh. Nevermind.
The guy who approached me for a trade, had put his SME 3009R up for sale in Denmark and when we were negotiating a trade, he had removed his advert and was requesting a higher trade value for his SME 3009R against my phono stage. He was the one who approached me. Oh well.

What a time waster that #*!)% dude...

[Barry]

The nylon knife edge bearing was introduced with the 'Improved' version of the 3009/II series, though some of the very early samples used a steel bearing to use up stock.

The use of a softer material for the knife edges was a decision made by Alastair Robertson-Aikman, who thought it improved the performance of the arm and preferred it from a sound quality point of view. So the arm for sale was likely to be fitted with a nylon bearing.

If you do acquire an SME arm fitted with a nylon bearing, it is a straightforward matter (if a little fiddly) to replace it with a metal one.

[Rosewind]

I am going to receive the arm on Friday so I will keep all fingers crossed that it is fine. The bearing I will update if required.

[Rosewind]

I just found out that neither the counter-weight nor the anti-skating weight is original. Would have been great to know. Should have walked away as advised earlier in the thread.

So how bad is it? Please look at the photos and tell me about ALL fake parts. I will want to restore it to its original state.

[Rosewind]

This is what I was told by a German expert on SME arms

"Dear Peter,

thanks for the pictures. The tonearm is not original at all. The counterweight and the antiskating weight are copies and not original. I service only tonearm in original condition. The original counterweights are as spares available, but expensive.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüssen, Best regards, Met vriendelijke groet, Salutations distinguées, Distinti saluti, Med venlig hilsen

Robert Graetke
___________________
Analog Tube Audio - finest quality handcrafted in Germany

[Rosewind]

Is he wrong?

[Rosewind]

I would appreciate if I could be put in contact with someone who knows his way around SME arms.

[Blackdog]

Hi Rosewood,
Contact Alfred at www.smetonearms.com.
Formally the Canadian distributor, now does re-builds. Knows a lot about SME and still has factory contacts.

[Rosewind]

Thanks Dan.
I will comtact him.
Kind regards,
Peter

These parts are not original.

1) The knife edge
2) the counter weight stub
3) the counterweight
4) the rider weight
5) the ride weight carrier
6) the headshell is not original = an Ortofon one - I knew that when I bought it
7) The bias weight support wire is from an "improved" 3009

[struth]

Have you used it?

[Rosewind]

No. Got it in a trade. Wanted to sell it.

[Lawrence001]

Have you contacted the trader to tell him what you have been advised? I didn't realise fake parts existed. It seems that everything of any value is getting faked these days.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk

[WESTLOWER]

Here’s a quick snap shot of my end gear on my original 3012R
For reference.. if it helps
https://i.imgur.com/X5yGQ4z.jpg

[Rosewind]

Thanks for the photo. The grub screws are the easiest to tell apart from the original. I may have to take the arm to someone who owns one and make a direct side-by-side comparison.

Yes I have. He is a private seller and a Dane and he is adamant that everything is original, but contrary to this the evidence is mounting that 6 parts, apart from the headshell that I knew about, are somewhat good copies. Perhaps an earlier owner wanted to use it with a heavier cartridge?

EDIT: I am in touch with someone who owns an original arm and perhaps I can go for a visit later this week to make a direct comparison.

[Rosewind]

Here is a photo of another SME 3009R:
https://i.imgur.com/gO3byBy.jpg

[Rosewind]

Here is Alfred Kayser's rather conclusive reply,

Hi Peter –

That arm is as fake as xxxx!!!


The following items are clearly cheap xxx xxxx ... counterfeit garbage

The counter weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The rider weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The way rod (rider weight carrier) is counterfeit


The knife edge bearing is plastic with the cutoff back, it appears correct , the screws are not correct and appear to have removed and put back in many times.


This arm has been put together out of scrap parts


The bias weight guide assembly is correct for an “ R “ version arm (bias weight support wire)


I am unable to tell you if the counter weight stub is counterfeit as I can not see enough of it.


To be honest I think even the arm tube has been harvested from a 3009 Improved.

(...)

Peter if this is a EBay deal contact EBay and initiate a return at once based on the fact this

item is not as represented , do a charge back.


Do you have the EBay item number , I would love to see the original auction .


Yours Truly – Alfred Kayser


www.smetonearms.com

--------------------
Thanks all. I have just written the seller and demanded that the trade is void and null so I give him back his "pukka" arm and cash, and I receive the Trilogy 907 back

[WESTLOWER]

Here is Alfred Kayser's rather conclusive reply,

Hi Peter –

That arm is as fake as xxxx!!!


The following items are clearly cheap xxx xxxx ... counterfeit garbage

The counter weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The rider weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The way rod (rider weight carrier) is counterfeit


The knife edge bearing is plastic with the cutoff back, it appears correct , the screws are not correct and appear to have removed and put back in many times.


This arm has been put together out of scrap parts


The bias weight guide assembly is correct for an “ R “ version arm (bias weight support wire)


I am unable to tell you if the counter weight stub is counterfeit as I can not see enough of it.


To be honest I think even the arm tube has been harvested from a 3009 Improved.

(...)

Peter if this is a EBay deal contact EBay and initiate a return at once based on the fact this

item is not as represented , do a charge back.


Do you have the EBay item number , I would love to see the original auction .


Yours Truly – Alfred Kayser


www.smetonearms.com

--------------------
Thanks all. I have just written the seller and demanded that the trade is void and null so I give him back his "pukka" arm and cash, and I receive the Trilogy 907 back

Blimey! That seems conclusive.
Hard to believe that people can be bothered to create a 'Frankenstein' arm.

It would actually be interesting to hear how it performs!
Maybe it's amazing!! ;)

I hope you get the deal reversed...
Do lets us all know

[Rosewind]

No chance of that unless I go through the police and court system. The guy became really riled up and forbade me to ever contact him again or use his photos etc. I think I wil have to send the arm to someone who knows SME like the back of their hands to make sure. SME UK wrote me that the parts looked like SME parts and if they were not, they were extremely well-made copies indeed.

[struth]

id be inclined to try it out and see if it actually plays well

[Rosewind]

I will take it to a local expert and we will see if it plays well.

[Lawrence001]

No chance of that unless I go through the police and court system. The guy became really riled up and forbade me to ever contact him again or use his photos etc. I think I wil have to send the arm to someone who knows SME like the back of their hands to make sure. SME UK wrote me that the parts looked like SME parts and if they were not, they were extremely well-made copies indeed.Given his response to your well founded concerns, and if Marco agrees, I think you should share his trading details on here so that other members can avoid dealing with him...

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[Rosewind]

It is NOT a trader or seller from the UK, nor on this forum. I bought it in Denmark from a private seller. So no reason for concern.

[Rosewind]

I have contacted an experienced Danish dealer near me, whom I communicated with about my EAR 516 and (now sold) 509s. He has an outspoken blog about kit on his website and has written a piece about the various iterations of the SME tonearm from 3009 to V (or so). I am sure that he wille be able to tell what is what. He will also be able to service it which will be a boon.

[Rosewind]

I have an appointment today at 15 o'clock (3 pm) with Poul who works at Dansk Audio Teknik in Aarhus, Denmark. He is a true PA and hifi veteran and has seen his share of SME arms over the years. He has/had an SME turntable with SME V tonearm, EAR 549s, Tannoy speakers, Quad ESL and ATC pres in his private stereo set-ups. I hope to be able to have a listen.

We will soon know his professional opinion.

----------
You can see Poul's past set-ups here - the two articles are in Danish but please look at the photos. The first article is from 2014, the second from 2006:

https://lydogbillede.dk/nyheter/hjemmebiograf/prof-grej-i-hjemmeanlaegget/
http://hifi4all.dk/content/templates/besogsartikler.asp?articleid=1226&zoneid=4

I suppose that for some people there will be a bit too much dust on that SME turntable in the second article, so be forewarned! :)

[Rosewind]

The arm is a genuine SME 3009R tonearm.

The only exceptions being the two screws + the fact that two tiny springs are missing + there is no headshell. Otherwise it is complete.

So how on earth two respected international SME-repairers could reach a verdict of it being absolutely a fake arm is beyond me. It beggars belief and one may be excused for saying some nasty things about those two American and German experts that make money restoring SME arms. You can scroll up and get their names. I for one will never ever again get near them or their businesses with a bargepole. NOT RECOMMENDED.

On the contrary, SME UK was right in their tentative conclusion on the basis of my photos of the arm. The same photos that were sent to the two "experts."

------

I spent almost three hours together with Poul Mathiasen (correctly spelled this time) at his combined business and home in Aaarhus. It took him 10 seconds to establish that my SME 3009R is completely genuine and in good condition. No doubt whatsoever. He will gladly certify this or repeat this to anyone who will want to check. You can find him through his website "Dansk Audio Teknik".

After a few minutes spent looking at the genuine SME 3009R tonearm, I listened to some fantastic music - first Lucinda Williams in the basement where some big tower speakers were driven by Class D amps, then upstairs on an active ATC chain: ATC SCA 2 - (8 Channel) ATC power amp - ATC 300 speakers fed by a Weiss DAC 1 and a nice CD-player (I forgot to write down the brand but perhaps someone can identify it from the photo?). We listened to Lucinda Williams albums ("World Without Tears" and "Live @ the Fillmore"), The Hadouk Trio and Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Revisited" (live). Impressive and realistic sound. Holy Moly! I may want to borrow the ATC SCA2 preamp for a repeat performance in my own set-up, or perhaps better not ...

Photos of a vinyl-lined room - and before anyone asks, "no" - I did not listen to music through the gigantic horn-speakers that can be seen waiting in the next room, and "no" we did not spin any vinyl on the SME turntable:

https://i.imgur.com/FBfsdCnh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JxogX20h.jpg

[Lawrence001]

That must be a relief and you can understand why the seller was a bit upset, although having fake screws didn't help the matter.

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[Rosewind]

I think the explanation for wrong or fake screws is simple and innocent enough: they were mislaid at some point in time.

The first thing I did after the arm had been deemed genuine in all respects was to text the seller and apologize to him.