View Full Version : Why you, your children & your grand-children can't put down a phone or Computer game
AJSki2fly
23-09-2019, 17:13
I came across this article below and the other two which are linked to from it. This came about from looking at https://tboneburnett.com/the-tech-industrys-war-on-kids/, some of you may be aware of his recent album that is The Invisible Light(which is an interesting listen), the album is the first in a planned trilogy about technology and its impact on humanity. His web-site has links to various articles which discuss aspects of technology and human discoveries and their impacts on us as human beings. The cynical may view that Mr. Burnett has in fact hooked into a clever way to gain interest and advertise his trilogy, however I hope that his motives are more honourable, I will leave you to decide on that
As some of you know I have worked in the IT industry for many years, I also have an interest in AI(Artificial Intelligence) for several reasons, it is very easy to under-estimate its power, and like all things man-made can be used for good or bad.
I thought some of you facing the issues raised by the article and might find it helpful in understanding what we as simple human beings and consumers are up against. If you think simple advertising on radio, TV, and any other media is bad, then think again, what is being discussed here is effectively subliminal grooming.
https://medium.com/@richardnfreed/the-tech-industrys-psychological-war-on-kids-c452870464ce
http://captology.stanford.edu
https://www.boundless.ai
Very interesting, Adrian. As you may already know, from what I've written many times here on the subject of subliminal brainwashing, by the establishment/elite, through various avenues, none of this is a surprise to me!
I'll comment more later.
Marco.
I don't have TV so I'm safe
You're already terminally daft, so it doesn't matter!:D
Marco.
Beobloke
24-09-2019, 12:09
I got halfway through the article and then got bored by the conspiracy theorist twaddle, but I hadn't yet encountered the phrases "responsible parenting" or "limiting screen time" in reference to the child mentioned at the start.
Did these appear in the second half?
I got halfway through the article and then got bored by the conspiracy theorist twaddle...
More like reality, than twaddle... Or are you one of those folk who prefers burying their head in the sand and pretending that the 'powers that be' are all lovely people, who have our best interests at heart, rather than facing up to what more likely equates to the truth?;)
I frequently find that's the case with those who arrogantly dismiss valid information, much of which is based upon fact, as "twaddle", simply because it doesn't suit their belief system.
Marco.
I got halfway through the article and then got bored by the conspiracy theorist twaddle, but I hadn't yet encountered the phrases "responsible parenting" or "limiting screen time" in reference to the child mentioned at the start.
Did these appear in the second half?
I read the whole of the first article and agree it's a lot about nothing. backed up by nothing but anecdotes and generalisations.
Not sure why youngsters spending time on computer games and social media today is any more of an issue from when I was a youth and the big 'dangers' were... computer games, or maybe hanging around with your mates outside the shops.
Sure you could go down the park and kick a football about but that isn't going to get you the skills you need for life or a job either and it's not exercising the brain any more than a video game - less probably - yet children have been doing that for centuries.
Just bollox from someone trying to flog his book to parents who are taking it all way too seriously.
So you don't believe that both the behaviour of adults and children can be surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by what's being drip-fed to them via today's technological devices, smartphones being but one example?
Then I'm sorry, you're blind, and we'll have to grossly agree to disagree. One day, in the not too distant future, when what's being reported fully comes to fruition, yours (and Adam's) stubborn blinkered-ness will sadly be exposed for what it is;)
Sometimes the TRUTH is uncomfortable.
Marco.
It can be an issue, but mostly it is due to poor parenting. You need to be firm on the type and ammount of exposure they get. Some parents are worse than the kids tbh.:doh:
A bit like eating, a mix of everything is healthier than anything 24/7
So you don't believe that both the behaviour of adults and children can be surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by what's being drip-fed to them via today's technological devices, smartphones being but one example?
.
Our behavior is manipulated and controlled by every influence we are subjected to from the moment of conception. It is what creates out personalities. Do you not wonder why you don't like some types of food for example? That's not your decision, you have no control over it, it's a result of external forces acting upon you.
Indeed all of your likes, dislikes, habits, hobbies etc are the result of external influences. Your entire personality is the result of external influences. Technological devices are just another external influence and they work exactly the same as all the other influences that have been around since Noah was lad.
The bloke's whole theory is banal in the extreme.
crimsondonkey
24-09-2019, 12:58
Bit of a problem with this - all very interesting and that, but where's your empirical evidence mate? A collection of anecdotes and suppositions do not provide evidence or causal links.
The article perhaps appeals to people who can relate to this kind of half baked paranoid psychodrama, rather than rely on building a genuine hypothesis through reason and evidence. The reader nods and say yeah that's what I think so it must be right/ be credible.
The only influencing going on here is on the people who read that kind of superficial theorising and find it more compelling than they really ought to :hmm:
AJSki2fly
24-09-2019, 13:35
So you don't believe that both the behaviour of adults and children can be surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by what's being drip-fed to them via today's technological devices, smartphones being but one example?
Then I'm sorry, you're blind, and we'll have to grossly agree to disagree. One day, in the not too distant future, when what's being reported fully comes to fruition, yours (and Adam's) stubborn blinkered-ness will sadly be exposed for what it is;)
Sometimes the TRUTH is uncomfortable.
Marco.
Quite agree, agencies and various large organisations are using AI to tailor how and what they present to individuals based on feedback through a variety of devices and mediums. They use this to develop applications, games, multi-media, and a host of other stuff for addictive consumption. It is a real thing and IMO is quite a scary state of affairs as it is not controlled in anyway. You only have to look at recently released mobile phones and other devices to see that the selling point is built in AI or even improve AI, this is marketed as improving you experience as a user as the AI learns from what you do what to present you, but actually you have to ask what control do you actually have over that feedback as an end user, or if in fact it is actually what you really want or need.
For those that pooh-poo the article, or ones like them as rubbish, I am afraid that the technology and the meaning of what it can and does do has already passed you by. Major commercial institutions will use whatever they can to leverage loyalty and gain control of customers to get their hard earn dollars, pounds, rupees, yen etc. out of them. Also if the result is a dumbing down of the masses through the tools, then by some that is not necessarily considered a bad thing, it creates control and a divide between those that understand what is happening and those that do not. Remember power is in information, and in this modern world it is data and how it is used, which in turn gives control and manipulation!!! Unfortunately it appears that aspects of this are taking sinister turns, as usual it will be driven by greed and and those wanting power.
Perhaps were are not that far away from a society similar to that in the Hunger Games. We probably just need a couple of major wars to cull the global population a bit and divide society up a bit first, I am sure those that control and manage the technology will flourish, and will even be supported and protected by governments for obvious reasons.
Our behavior is manipulated and controlled by every influence we are subjected to from the moment of conception. It is what creates out personalities. Do you not wonder why you don't like some types of food for example? That's not your decision, you have no control over it, it's a result of external forces acting upon you.
Absolutely. So you're essentially agreeing with me! Now, hold that thought (and what I've highlighted above) for a moment, and run with this...
Therefore, given that the above is FACT, you don't believe that, aided by today's technology and what we've learned over many years about human behavioural patterns , we haven't become better at understanding how to control and manipulate our behaviour as human beings, for nefarious gain, and have utilised currently available technology to help facilitate that?
Come of it... That's as much "external forces acting upon you' as anything else that's had a similar effect before, and you have NO control of this version either. Especially when there's untold billions to be made from it by those set to profit most from the accumulated data!
And those [perhaps including you] demanding "empirical evidence", in order to prove what's being put forward, I'm sorry, are simply cynics using it as a smokescreen to try and deflect from what is likely to be the unpalatable truth.
Exactly how much 'evidence' do you need, other than watching what's currently happening in the world around you, and what people are fast becoming/being slowly, but surely turned into, by the elite, with a ruthless agenda for achieving absolute control and world domination, as a result of having infinite wealth and power?
That's their plan!!
Marco.
Absolutely. So you're essentially agreeing with me! Now, hold that thought (and what I've highlighted above) for a moment, and run with this...
Therefore, given that the above is FACT, you don't believe that, aided by today's technology and what we've learned over many years about human behavioural patterns , we haven't become better at understanding how to control and manipulate our behaviour as human beings, for nefarious gain, and have utilised currently available technology to help facilitate that?
Come of it... That's as much "external forces acting upon you' as anything else that's had a similar effect before, and you have NO control of this version either. Especially when there's untold billions to be made from it by those set to profit most from the accumulated data!
And those [perhaps including you] demanding "empirical evidence", in order to prove what's being put forward, I'm sorry, are simply cynics using it as a smokescreen to try and deflect from what is likely to be the unpalatable truth.
Exactly how much 'evidence' do you need, other than watching what's currently happening in the world around you, and what people are fast becoming/being slowly, but surely turned into, by the elite, with a ruthless agenda for achieving absolute control and world domination, as a result of having infinite wealth and power?
Marco.
What exactly are people being turned into? If you could go into a bit more detail as to how this will all work on a practical level then I'd have something to hang my hat on.
And on the subject of 'artificial intelligence' there's no such thing. It's just a computer program - but there's nothing 'scary' about that.
People have been manipulating other peoples' wants and desires for thousands of years. It's what people do. And the masses have always been dumbed down. The Romans and Greeks can be found complaining about that.
I suppose people just love the idea that we are heading toward some weird and scary future, you see the same thing with the current hysteria about the climate. People want all this shit to be true, I've no idea why. Now an article exploring that might have something interesting to say.
anthonyTD
24-09-2019, 14:25
Good post,
And like others here, its no surprise to me, we have been enticed into using devices like smart phones, and tablets on the pretence that they are helping us, and therfore benefiting us the more we use them, unfortunetly many people have now become so addicted to using them, they cannot put them down, some would say; maybe this was the intention from the start,:scratch: throw in the social media aspect as well, one example; i was recently in one of the play centers for kids with my Daughter, and couldnt help notice one young mother of two constantly on her phone, even when her children tried to get here attention, she continualy blocked them with her arm so they would go away and leave her to continue with what ever it was she felt was more important on her phone than keeping an eye on her kids, or paying any attention to them. this went on for the remainder of time i was there, in total; around 2 hours :doh:
We are constantly being distracted, and quietly brainwashed into accepting a reality that to many of us is unhealthy to say the least.
I really worry for kids today.
Always cracks me up ....
People on the internet pontificating about how evil the internet is :rofl:
What exactly are people being turned into? If you could go into a bit more detail as to how this will all work on a practical level then I'd have something to hang my hat on.
That fact that you're asking that either shows your gross ignorance of what's happening in the world around you, or what I suspect is more likely the case, that you simply don't want to admit the possibility of that which doesn't 'fit' with your ingrained belief system.
Anthony has just touched upon the most pertinent example of all: today's 'iZombies'! And our society is populated by thousands upon thousands of others *exactly* like the 'robot', whose behaviour pattern he described.
There are numerous other examples I could cite of how we're being surreptitiously controlled and manipulated, by having our behavioural patterns analysed and recorded via various 'Smart' devices, or being 'led' into behaving and doing things in a certain way, even with small things such as the near-abolishing of manned checkouts in supermarkets and the move towards computer-controlled 'driverless' cars.
That is fundamental brainwashing, plain and simple, and it's certainly NOT for our benefit. It is symptomatic of the control being imposed upon us by those with a nefarious agenda. Mark my words, man-made machines will eventually be the ruination of mankind....!
People have been manipulating other peoples' wants and desires for thousands of years. It's what people do. And the masses have always been dumbed down. The Romans and Greeks can be found complaining about that.
Precisely - and it's always been carried out by those in positions of authority, for three reasons: to achieve infinite WEALTH and POWER, and with it CONTROL over all others. Various dictators, over the centuries, have tried (and thankfully ultimately failed) to achieve it in the long term, but with those behind it this time, I'm not so sure!!
Marco.
its no surprise to me, we have been enticed into using devices like smart phones, and tablets on the pretence that they are helping us, and therfore benefiting us the more we use them, unfortunetly many people have now become so addicted to using them, they cannot put them down
Exactly - and trust me, it's NO 'accident' either. And the woman you described is a classic example of the 'zombies' we've now been breeding for at least a decade!
Marco.
Always cracks me up ....
People on the internet pontificating about how evil the internet is :rofl:
The Internet itself is not intrinsically "evil"; rather it (and other forms of modern technology) can be used with 'evil' intent by those with an agenda - and it is. *That* is the point.
Marco.
No doubt it can be used for good and not so good... It's not just our leaders either. Being www it can be from anywhere.
I like playing with advertisers who like to target you by looking at stuff online I'm not interested in... They then hit me with ads for stuff I won't be tempted with.. Ner
Pretty much anything can be used with 'evil' intent although I'd challenge the whole concept of 'evil intent.' It's very rare that people who do bad things actually think they are doing bad things. They see themselves as the good guys. People who know they are evil and enjoy being evil mostly only exist in fiction.
In the example Anthony gave of the mother being on her phone instead of paying attention to the children, you could have seen the same thing fifty, a hundred or a thousand years ago, it's just that the nature of the distraction would be different.
I know there's a whole middle-class parenting thing now that says the little darlings cannot be ignored even for a minute. The result is the children are spoiled, over-indulged and unable to entertain themselves for even a second. Much worse for society in the long term.
IMO more parents need to tell their children to sod off and stop bugging them all the time.
anthonyTD
24-09-2019, 15:35
I assure you, that was not the case, the children in my example were away playing by themselves for much of the time they were there, only a few times did they come back to her, and try and get her attention, and each time, she just brushed them away with one arm, while continuing holding, and looking at her phone in the other. This is just one example i see all the time, maybe i notice things more because i don't use a phone, or tablet of any kind when i am out and about.
I know there's a whole middle-class parenting thing now that says the little darlings cannot be ignored even for a minute. The result is the children are spoiled, over-indulged and unable to entertain themselves for even a second. Much worse for society in the long term.
IMO more parents need to tell their children to sod off and stop bugging them all the time.
anthonyTD
24-09-2019, 15:52
As for digital technology, or any modern technology for that matter; when used in a positive way it can indeed enhance our quality of life, and help us a great deal in our day to day lives.
We just need to get the balance right, however; history has shown us that where humans are concerned, if we are able to do something, we find it very difficult to reason whether we should do it or not, and therefore end up doing it anyway! :rolleyes:
I'm still waiting for someone to show some sort of concrete evidence that there is any major cause for concern.
Technology changes, people don't. We have exactly the same societal issues now as the Romans and Greeks did 2000 years ago.
You wait until 2.14 Eastern time, August 29th 1997,skynet will become self aware and we're all doomed
You wait until 2.14 Eastern time, August 29th 1997,skynet will become self aware and we're all doomed
I blame it all on HAL .....
AJSki2fly
24-09-2019, 16:49
Pretty much anything can be used with 'evil' intent although I'd challenge the whole concept of 'evil intent.' It's very rare that people who do bad things actually think they are doing bad things. They see themselves as the good guys. People who know they are evil and enjoy being evil mostly only exist in fiction.
I don't think that Marco meant "Evil" in the way you imply. However there are those who have the access and ability to use these AI tools for self benefit of themselves and the organisations they are part of. Unfortunately there are quite a few whose main aim is to move themselves up the ladder of power and control into elitism, which involves the accumulation of wealth and manipulation of others without those being impacted actually understanding or realising that they are being used in such a way. So the question is can this be viewed as evil or not, it really depends on your morals and what is defined as good of bad.
I can sight a good example of AI being used for a very good purpose, the AI (or computer program.algorithms as you put it) was used to scan multiple breast scans for many, many months for tutors and the learning process was to compare whether the it had got the result correct or not, by comparing with what a human had determined. This is obviously done through a feed back loop process but the clever bit was that the AI program(s) actually self corrected and re-wrote aspects of itself to ensure it got more and more accurate. The end result was that it was able to scan any breast scan for cancer millions of times faster than a human and 10,000 times more accurately than a human. I believe this technology is now in the process of being ruled out in the USA, and will go elsewhere.
On your point about there is no such think as Artificial Intelligence, that is actually not quite true, there are now machine and AI programs out there there can make autonomous decisions on their own and can also develop new precepts from what they have learned. The key here being able to develop new, not what they are programmed to do or learn.
I would remind you of the logarithmic curve and apply this to computers and the technology around it. If you go back to mainframes and just do a simple comparison in terms of size, back in the 70's and early 80's a 128MB of central storage (CPU) were standard on the model 400 of a IBM 3090 machine and considered a sizeable machine. Then by the late 80's we have client server machines in boxes that could go under a desk with 4gb addressable physical memory, by the end of the 90's we were talking about computers with 36-bit address bus to support 64 GB of physical memory, and by the end of 00's speed and addressable RAM had increased again. in June 2007 onto the scene came the multifunctional hand held iPhone with touch screen, with up to 128 MB eDRAM(note the same size as an IBM 3090) and that quickly went up quickly in subsequent generations. The current top A13 processor in an iPhone has has 8.5 Billion Transistors, each one is 0 or 1 to run the code, that is over 1000MB, and it has 4GB RAM available. By the way if you look at clock speeds these have increased in a similar fashion. Similarly chip architecture has got smaller in 1979 the 8086 chip was 3000nm(nanometers), in 2000 a pentium 4 chip was 180nm, and the Intel Core i3-8121U in 2018 is 10nm in size.
The point is that the development of the technology and the code that is run on them is now very much off the bottom of the logarithmic curve and is very rapidly ascending on the steep part., as is the self learning program(AI). Do not under-estimate the technology or what it is capable of doing, just to put this into some context if you had the programming skills and desire to do so, you could launch a Saturn 5 rocket, deploy to the moon, land a lunar shuttle, do all the navigation and manage all the control systems and come back using a current day mobile phone.
Pigmy Pony
24-09-2019, 17:28
Ok, I'm convinced, AI is here and will be making us do things we don't want to do, and buy shit we don't need. So how do we deal with it? All I'm hearing so far are the views from two camps: (a) don't see a problem, and (b) that's because you're thick, it is a problem. What's the solution? I'm all ears :D
On a slightly related note, when I went down to the Asda the other day, I looked up as I went through the entrance, to see a TV screen with me on it. Not so unusual, CCTV has been around forever. But this looked a little different - there was a flashing box around my head, and that of a woman walking behind me. Facial recognition I guess. But why are they so interested in my face? I only went in for a Toblerone.
there are those who have the access and ability to use these AI tools for self benefit of themselves and the organisations they are part of. Unfortunately there are quite a few whose main aim is to move themselves up the ladder of power and control into elitism, which involves the accumulation of wealth and manipulation of others without those being impacted actually understanding or realising that they are being used in such a way. So the question is can this be viewed as evil or not, it really depends on your morals and what is defined as good of bad.
There have always been people doing that. 'AI' is just another tool they can use to do that, I disagree that it is a game changer or that it means they are able to do anything that was not possible previously. It might make the process easier, or faster, assuming they are able to utilise it effectively* but that's about it.
On your point about there is no such think as Artificial Intelligence, that is actually not quite true, there are now machine and AI programs out there there can make autonomous decisions on their own and can also develop new precepts from what they have learned. The key here being able to develop new, not what they are programmed to do or learn.
I was a programmer, I understand how computers work. Learning programmes are nothing new. I agree that the tech makes them more powerful now than they were. But they are not 'intelligent' or adaptive in the way a human is intelligent and adaptive. And they never will be. We are no closer to a 'Commander Data' with his positronic brain than we were 100 years ago.
* For example Amazon sends me e-mails advising me of tat that they sell which I might wish to buy. This is pretty much always something i just bought. e.g I bought a dehumidifier recently so what do they send me? Adverts for dehumidifiers. Given I just bought one it is arguably the one thing I am least likely to buy again, especially right away. In other words even a huge company like Amazon have no idea how to deploy such technology. If nothing else, incompetence and lack of ability will keep us safe ;)
I'm still waiting for someone to show some sort of concrete evidence that there is any major cause for concern.
Lol... FFS, you're not going to get any "concrete evidence", simply because if the problem was that bleeding obvious, it wouldn't be occurring surreptitiously!:doh:
Plus, those who are not willingly part of 'the system', but still occupy positions of authority, would try and stop it. What do you want as proof, a written confession from Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, that he's one of the bastard elite who want to take over the world???
Unfortunately I'm seeing the same stubbornly rigid-thinking and closed-mindedness in evidence here, as is usually present on cable threads... And the blinkered mentality of 'if it can't be proven then it doesn't exist'. Come on, use your own judgement, based upon opening your eyes and SEEING what's happening all around you. *That* is your evidence!
You've already moaned elsewhere about the poor standards of literacy and general written communication you've experienced from your colleagues at work. I bet it wasn't always that bad?
Grant posted an excerpt of an 'essay' that a school kid had presented to their teacher, written entirely in 'text speak', and which I can state from having a wife who's an English teacher, is far from being an uncommon occurrence now among her teenage students, neither are the deplorable overall standards of literacy among the young in general, and which are much worse now than they've ever been.
The woman at the bank, who Mike mentioned on another thread, and who was unable to express herself properly in simple English, folk in shops now who can't count or perform basic arithmetic, as they're too used to the computerised till doing the calculations and thinking for them. The morons we see now on TV, often presenting discussions on serious subjects, yet whose views are considered by the masses as 'important'. iZombies walking into lamp posts because they're *so* fixated upon their screens, portraying the virtual world that they've become so obsessed with, deliberately created and controlled by the establishment.
That type of brainwashing and stupidity exists all around us now, and thus forms your evidence...
The fact is, the majority of people are becoming dumber, not cleverer - and free-thinking is deliberately being stifled by those with a controlling agenda, and who are practicing it by manipulating modern technology for their self-serving ends and/or those of their employers or superiors. That is the reality!
It's ALL intrinsically linked mate, and part of the elite's long-term 'grand plan'. Quite simply, if you're susceptible to being led, rather insular and not very intelligent, then you're easy to manipulate and control - and that's exactly the type of people who 'they' want populating our world in future, and that we're breeding more and more of every day!
Anyway, I know you'll never agree, as you're too binary thinking and fixated upon 'concrete evidence', thus unfortunately unable to see the bigger picture, and in the process completely missing the point, so I'll leave it there.
Marco.
Lol... FFS, you're not going to get any "concrete evidence", simply because if it was that bleeding obvious, it wouldn't be happening surreptitiously!:doh:
Plus, those who are not willingly part of 'the system', but still occupy positions of authority, would try and stop it.
Unfortunately however, I'm seeing the same stubbornly rigid-thinking and closed-mindedness in evidence here, as is usually present on cable threads... And the blinkered mentality of 'if it can't be proven, it doesn't exist'. Come on, use your own judgement, based upon opening your eyes and SEEING what's happening all around you. *That* is your evidence!
You've already moaned elsewhere about the poor standards of literacy and general written communication by your colleagues at work. Grant posted an excerpt of an 'essay' that a school kid had presented to a teacher, written entirely in 'text speak', and which I can tell you from having a wife who's an English teacher is not an uncommon occurrence now among her teenage students, neither are the deplorable overall standards of literacy among the young in general now, and which is much worse than it's ever been.
The woman at the bank, who Mike mentioned on another thread, and who was unable to express herself properly in simple English, folk in shops now who can't count or perform very basic arithmetic, as they're used to the computerised till doing the calculations for them. The morons we see now on TV, often presenting discussions on serious subjects, yet whose views are considered as 'important'.
The fact is, people are becoming dumber, not cleverer - and free-thinking is deliberately being stifled by those with an agenda, practicing mind control via the use of modern technology for their self-serving ends.
It's ALL intrinsically linked mate, and part of the elite's 'grand plan'. Quite simply, if you're susceptible to being led, rather insular and not very intelligent, then you're easy to manipulate and control - and that's exactly the type of people 'they' want populating our world!
.
The reason I don't agree with you is because none of these things are new. The mass of people have always been pretty dumb, that has not changed. And people who are a bit more switched on have always complained about it.
The difference now, maybe, is that that the dummies are doing jobs they would not previously have been able to get due to lack of ability. Now if you are going to say that hiring and promoting idiots is part of the 'global elite's plan' maybe you are right as I'm damned if I can see why it happens. But even if it is I'm not sure how that helps them in any way.
I don't think that Marco meant "Evil" in the way you imply. However there are those who have the access and ability to use these AI tools for self benefit of themselves and the organisations they are part of. Unfortunately there are quite a few whose main aim is to move themselves up the ladder of power and control into elitism, which involves the accumulation of wealth and manipulation of others without those being impacted actually understanding or realising that they are being used in such a way..
Nail > head... And that's probably why they're unable to see it, and thus acknowledge it!! :exactly:
The manipulation and mind control is all very carefully considered, and deliberately executed so as not to be obvious.
Marco.
The reason I don't agree with you is because none of these things are new.
No, but evidence shows (by simply opening your eyes and observing what's happening in the world around you now) that it's worse and more widespread than ever, simply because modern technology has allowed those with the discussed agenda to more easily practice their brainwashing, thus accelerate their plan for world control, achieved through having infinite wealth and power.
As I've said, there's a reason, intrinsically linked with what I've been discussing, why people are factually now more illiterate and unable to think for themselves, or problem solve, than they once were [the deliberate stifling of free-thinking, replaced by technology], and our current, grossly inferior compared with what it once was, education and exam system very clearly reflect that, but I don't expect you to see it.
As usual in these types of discussions Martin, your viewpoint is rather too entrenched, and so continuing debating the subject with you will achieve nothing but a pointlessly circular argument.
Marco.
If this 'brainwashing' malarkey had any substance, everyone would be trusting the Establishment to do the right thing. As it is, the Establishment is less trusted than at any time in my memory.
The establishment isn't just the government, Joe. The government are simply puppets for the elite, and exist to fulfil a specific purpose, often deliberately illusory... The elite (one of whom I mentioned earlier) are the ones who are ultimately in control and pulling all the strings.
Marco.
No, but evidence shows (by simply opening your eyes and observing what's happening in the world around you) that it's worse now and more widespread than ever, simply because modern technology has allowed those with the discussed agenda to more easily practice their brainwashing, thus accelerate their plan for world control, achieved through having infinite wealth and power.
As I said, there's a reason, intrinsically linked with what I've been discussing, why people are factually now more illiterate and unable to think for themselves than they once were [the deliberate stifling of free-thinking], and our current (grossly inferior compared with what it once was) education system and exam process very clearly reflect that, but I don't expect you to see it.
As usual in these types of discussions Martin, your viewpoint is rather too entrenched, and so continuing debating the subject with you will achieve nothing but a pointless circular argument.
Marco.
And as usual you make some sweeping statements and broad generalisations to back up your argument and then act surprised when it fails to convince me. Now I'm not saying that there is no conspiracy of the global elites but I need quite a lot more than 'You must be blind if you can't see it' before I'm going to agree that you might have a point.
The establishment isn't just the government, Joe. The government are simply puppets for the elite, and exist to fulfil a specific purpose, often deliberately illusory... The elite (one of whom I mentioned earlier) are the ones who are ultimately in control and pulling all the strings.
Marco.
So, this shadowy elite; were they for or against Brexit?
And as usual you make some sweeping statements and broad generalisations to back up your argument and then act surprised when it fails to convince me. Now I'm not saying that there is no conspiracy of the global elites but I need quite a lot more than 'You must be blind if you can't see it' before I'm going to agree that you might have a point.
I'm not expecting to convince you - heaven knows if only my powers of persuasion were so great - but rather for you not to rudely dismiss as "bollox' the valid points that Adrian and I have made, and which were highlighted in the articles linked to earlier.
Anyway, we'll leave it there. Best not start on climate change, food banks or Scottish independence, or we'll be back to square one and here all night!!:D;)
Marco.
So, this shadowy elite; were they for or against Brexit?
:lolsign:
Marco.
The establishment isn't just the government, Joe. The government are simply puppets for the elite, and exist to fulfil a specific purpose, often deliberately illusory... The elite (one of whom I mentioned earlier) are the ones who are ultimately in control and pulling all the strings.
Marco.
I have to agree with this.
Take financial collapses as an example, do these happen by accident?
Do dozens, or even hundreds, of investors suddenly wake up one morning and decide to sell their shares thus causing a price drop and ensuing domino effect?
In the banking crisis of 2008 did all the US banks suddenly happen to decide that all their sub prime mortgages, that had been relatively safe bets one day, suddenly became too risky and foreclosed on them?
I doubt it, somebody, somewhere engineers these events and makes vast profits from them. I don't know who they are or how they do it but I'm convinced it happens
Me too, and you make a very valid point. The world's top investment bankers form a significant number of the controlling elite, as do leading members of our Royal family, and who I believe are collectively guilty of some true atrocities. Think 9/11, unless you're daft enough to believe it was hijacked airplanes that brought down the twin towers....
The problem is, too many people either refuse or are too scared to contemplate the awful truth that might exist, instead of the somewhat cosier and more palatable lies painted by the establishment, via propaganda through the media, which like the banking and business world in general, is heavily controlled by Jews...
To see what *actually* exists in our world, you have to dig deep for the truth, if necessary by robustly challenging the accepted norm, and most importantly, fundamentally distrusting those in the highest positions of power - and that's really only possible if you're a free-thinker!
Marco.
AJSki2fly
24-09-2019, 20:37
The establishment isn't just the government, Joe. The government are simply puppets for the elite, and exist to fulfil a specific purpose, often deliberately illusory... The elite (one of whom I mentioned earlier) are the ones who are ultimately in control and pulling all the strings.
Marco.
Absolutely, people really do not understand power is not with government it is with the major companies that define and developed what people think they need.
There are several major companies in the world that had more money than the gdp of some countries, thy are the one that hold the power and influence and control. Think power companies, high tech/it, pharmaceuticals, and military suppliers and you have the major ones.
This is a pertinent point I missed, which Anthony made earlier:
I assure you, that was not the case, the children in my example were away playing by themselves for much of the time they were there, only a few times did they come back to her, and try and get her attention, and each time, she just brushed them away with one arm, while continuing holding, and looking at her phone in the other. This is just one example i see all the time, maybe i notice things more because i don't use a phone, or tablet of any kind when i am out and about.
Indeed, and me too, probably for the same reason!
I wonder if the apparent 'blindness' to what is actually happening around them, by those who claim that there is no cause for concern, is because they're unknowingly a part of the brainwash, but don't realise it, and therefore can't see it? Adrian touched upon that earlier.
Fact is, we rarely see ourselves as we truly are... It's also easier to identify the brainwashing when you're divorced from it, thus on the outside looking in. This is one of the fundamental reasons why I refuse to entertain smartphones, as unless used responsibly, they can so easily take over your life! The whole infrastructure surrounding them is designed to impose their control on you and make you become dependent upon them.
As for attention-seeking children, yes for the good of their development, on some occasions they could do with receiving a little less attention from doting parents, and in that respect I agree with Martin, but not at the expense of being neglected because of (most likely) the mother being more interested in what's happening on social media, than in what her kids were doing right in front of her.
Her selfish and irresponsible behaviour could've perhaps been excused if she had been doing something *really* important. But gawping at Facebook simply doesn't count. More worryingly, what if she had been ignoring a genuine emergency? And if she's behaving like that in a relatively short space of time in public, then what's she like with her kids the rest of the time?
Marco.
Absolutely, people really do not understand power is not with government it is with the major companies that define and developed what people think they need.
Yes, that's the crux of the matter: think being the operative word! Although I would slightly rewrite what you wrote to say: 'people really do not understand that power is not with governments, it is with major companies that define and develop what people think they need'.
That kind of makes more sense:)
Marco.
On a slightly related note, when I went down to the Asda the other day, I looked up as I went through the entrance, to see a TV screen with me on it. Not so unusual, CCTV has been around forever. But this looked a little different - there was a flashing box around my head, and that of a woman walking behind me. Facial recognition I guess. But why are they so interested in my face? I only went in for a Toblerone.
Have you looked at the image on your avatar recently, which I'm led to believe accurately depicts your visage? Unless you swim in the most unusual of circles, sweetheart, that's bound to raise a few eyebrows!:D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
25-09-2019, 05:43
Have you looked at the image on your avatar recently, which I'm led to believe accurately depicts your visage? Unless you swim in the most unusual of circles, sweetheart, that's bound to raise a few eyebrows!:D
Marco.
That "accurate depiction" was circulated by the shadowy elite, in order to discredit me and my theories. Some people have been brainwashed in to believing this representation is actually true, but not the free thinkers, oh no :nono: The truth is much more horrifying. Like Sunday morning Hollyoaks for deaf people :eek:
Me too, and you make a very valid point. The world's top investment bankers form a significant number of the controlling elite, as do leading members of our Royal family, and who I believe are collectively guilty of some true atrocities. Think 9/11, unless you're daft enough to believe it was hijacked airplanes that brought down the twin towers....
The problem is, too many people either refuse or are too scared to contemplate the awful truth that might exist, instead of the somewhat cosier and more palatable lies painted by the establishment, via propaganda through the media, which like the banking and business world in general, is heavily controlled by Jews...
Yeah, that was precisely Hitler's line; the world is controlled by a secretive Jewish elite.
To see what *actually* exists in our world, you have to dig deep for the truth, if necessary by robustly challenging the accepted norm, and most importantly, fundamentally distrusting those in the highest positions of power - and that's really only possible if you're a free-thinker!
Marco.
Any sensible person distrusts governments/powerful people. It's a far step from that to this David Icke-type shite.
Beobloke
25-09-2019, 07:46
The likes of brainwashing that Marco alludes to has indeed been around for years but it relies on one simple thing – weak-minded individuals to be susceptible to it. When was the last time you went out and bought something based on an advertisement? I don’t think I ever have. In fact, my father would generally avoid anything that was advertised, reasoning that if they had to advertise to sell it, it probably wasn’t very good! I have long felt that there are individuals and small groups of people in society who are kind, thoughtful, intelligent, strong minded and empathetic, but the vast majority are thick, easily-led, gullible and completely self-centred.
They have no self control, no awareness of how their actions might affect others and no ability to see that they themselves are often to blame for their problems. Got a kid who’s addicted to their phone? Well, it must be the fault of ‘big brother’, or society, or aliens. Could it be the child’s own lack of self-control, or poor parenting? Why, no – of course not. They cannot possibly take responsibility for their own actions.
This is one of the reasons why I have no time for Wikileaks or these other organisations that are so desperate to tell everyone the truth of what’s going on in every aspect of their lives. Yes, I’d be interested to know about some of them, personally, but generally? Absolutely not - the greater public are largely too stupid to deal with some of the facts and their reactions are ridiculous and unpredictable as a result. Once again you only have to look at the debacle every Black Friday or the way the shop shelves are suddenly empty of bread and milk when the merest dusting of snow descends on the country.
To me, the linked article fails in its original intention, but does neatly allude to everything that is wrong with people today.
Yeah, that was precisely Hitler's line; the world is controlled by a secretive Jewish elite.
You haven't surprised me by making that comment. What I wrote in that respect was simply a statement of fact.
Any sensible person distrusts governments/powerful people. It's a far step from that to this David Icke-type shite.
Indeed, but the problem, as has already been stated, is that there are a growing number of 'not so sensible' people out there, who are willing to believe anything that deflects from the (often) harsh reality. Some even blindly believe what the BBC news, or the newspapers tell them...
I'd contend that that type of wooly-thinking is just as "shite" as anything David Icke has come out with.
Marco.
Good post, Adam! I'll get to it after breakfast:)
Marco.
walpurgis
25-09-2019, 08:12
The likes of brainwashing that Marco alludes to has indeed been around for years but it relies on one simple thing – weak-minded individuals to be susceptible to it. When was the last time you went out and bought something based on an advertisement? I don’t think I ever have. In fact, my father would generally avoid anything that was advertised, reasoning that if they had to advertise to sell it, it probably wasn’t very good! I have long felt that there are individuals and small groups of people in society who are kind, thoughtful, intelligent, strong minded and empathetic, but the vast majority are thick, easily-led, gullible and completely self-centred.
Exactly!
You haven't surprised me by making that comment. What I wrote in that respect was simply a statement of fact.
What you wrote was a combination of fact (many wealthy bankers are Jewish), simple nonsense (eg that the Royal Family are part of a 'ruling elite' - as the recent Supreme Court judgement revealed, the Queen just does what she's told, and her actions can be over-ruled by the courts) and Icke-type speculation (the twin towers weren't brought down by airliners crashing into them).
It's comforting, in a way, to believe that human history is being manipulated by a group with some sort of masterplan, and a known aim. It's a boost to the ego to believe that you have some sort of insight into their machinations because you are a 'free thinker'. The somewhat scarier reality is that human history is a mixture of plans that go awry, coincidences, and unforeseen consequences. Brexit is the perfect example of this. The plan was for Remain to win the referendum, thus disarming Farage and the ERG. (Macca actually predicted that the vote would be rigged to ensure Remain won). The reality is a horrible mess, which does nobody any good at all; which places the Judiciary at odds with the Government; which drags the Queen into the controversy; which risks breaking up the United Kingdom and reigniting the Troubles in Northern Ireland. It's difficult to see how this benefits anyone.
Of course, the smart people will have their bases covered, so that any outcome isn't a disaster for them. George Soros, a favourite demon figure for both the far-right and the far-left, made a lot of money because he could see the 2008 financial crash coming and moved his wealth around accordingly. He is opposed to Brexit, but no doubt he will have made contingency plans in case it happens. Is he a Good Guy or a Bad Guy?
What you wrote was a combination of fact (many wealthy bankers are Jewish), simple nonsense (eg that the Royal Family are part of a 'ruling elite' - as the recent Supreme Court judgement revealed, the Queen just does what she's told, and her actions can be over-ruled by the courts) and Icke-type speculation (the twin towers weren't brought down by airliners crashing into them).
By all means disagree with me, but don't *ever* rudely dismiss my valid opinion as "nonsense"!
That's my educated, carefully researched opinion over many years, which I'm entitled to express without derision. Therefore, learn to respect that, even if you disagree with me, or you'll no longer be here. On AoS, that's a strict and fundamental rule of behaviour, and it applies as much to these discussions, as it does to ones involving hi-fi.
I'll address the rest of your post later.
Marco.
. The somewhat scarier reality is that human history is a mixture of plans that go awry, coincidences, and unforeseen consequences. Brexit is the perfect example of this. The plan was for Remain to win the referendum, thus disarming Farage and the ERG. (Macca actually predicted that the vote would be rigged to ensure Remain won)
I did nothing of the sort. I predicted that even if Leave won we still wouldn't leave. Looks like I was right about that too.
Beobloke
25-09-2019, 11:27
Think 9/11, unless you're daft enough to believe it was hijacked airplanes that brought down the twin towers....
I missed this, Marco. Please educate me further. When I watched the whole thing unfold live in the listening room at Goodmans, it certainly looked like two aeroplanes that brought down the twin towers.
With respect, Adam, I'm unwilling to discuss that subject in detail here, so I'll say one last thing and leave it at that.
What you saw was what looked like what you've just described, as portrayed on the news. Did you *actually see* it happening? There is no irrefutable, conclusive evidence I've seen which proves it was hijacked passenger planes that brought down the twin towers.
I shall say no more on the matter, nor will I respond to any further questions about it. If you want to discuss the subject in more detail, we'll do it over a few beers at the next hi-fi show!
Marco.
anthonyTD
25-09-2019, 12:24
You have to wonder whether we are given technology to help us, or to hinder us, :confused: for me, much of what i see and hear these days leads me to believe its the latter!:doh:
There have been some exceptional leaps in technology over the time i have been on this earth, however; how much of it has led to making our lives better, will depend greatly on the type of person you are, and the kind of lifestyle you live, and therefore expect.
I have deliberately stayed well away from social media since its infancy for a few reason, the main being, time, we only have a finite amount of time, and at the moment, time is amongst the few realities that one cannot buy, no matter how much wealth or power you have, but from what i see every day the amount of folk that willingly give their most valued asset away to this bollox is beyond me, AGAIN; you have to wonder whether certain technolgies are designed specificaly to waste as much of our time as posible :doh:
Another reason being; i believe in everyone being responsible for their own actions, Social media has up to date allowed the low lifes in life to bully, antagonise, and willfully cause deep distress and upset, to the point that it has led to many people becoming seriously ill, or worse to taking their own lives, this has been posible due to the ones that cause the most disturbing distress to others being allowed to do it anonymously, and therefore with little to no fear of any reprimand, or repocusions, go back 20 years, stand in a pub infront of a woman and say; your the ugliest thing i have ever seen, you dont deserve to live, you should go and kill yourself, and see what happens, this is just one tiny example that is factual, but i hope by now you get where i am coming from.
Social media IMHO is a poison, the ONLY antidote is; get a real life! :)
a...
In the meantime, Adam, you may find this article of some interest: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2006/sep/05/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
It discusses some of the points I've raised here, with regard to the elite, and analyses the subject of 9/11 from both a "conspiracy theorist's" POV, and otherwise.
Marco.
In the meantime, Adam, you may find this article of some interest: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2006/sep/05/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
It discusses many of the points I've been making here.
Marco.
We're academics and we're rational, and we really believe Congress or someone should investigate this," says David Gabbard, an East Carolina education professor and 9/11 scholar. "But there are a lot of crazies out there who purport that UFOs were involved. We don't want to be lumped in with those folks
Too late!
Well, the only folks doing that are those too stubbornly entrenched in their own contrary views, and who refuse to see things any other way.
The point is, it's as stupid or irrational to simply swallow what you've been told or shown in the news, which of course is entirely free from corruption, without challenging it whatsoever, as it is being too susceptible to believing in conspiracy theories.
Marco.
Since you're selectively quoting from the article, to suit your POV, allow me to reciprocate:
Barrett says the experts have been fooled by an "act of psychological conversion" not unlike the tactics CIA interrogators use on their victims. "People will disregard evidence if it causes their faith to be shattered," he says. "I think we were all shocked. And then, when the voice of authority told us what happened, we just believed it."
The first highlighted part is particularly apt, and exactly what I've been saying for years about ingrained belief systems and comfort zones, sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la, make the bad man go away', and subsequently burying your head in the sand... The faith mentioned cuts both ways, and so it affects the beliefs of both YOU and I!
No-one is immune from the effects of cognitive dissonance - not even scientists or rational academics;)
And the second describes how the majority of the general public will most often behave in these situations, although not necessarily those who are 'sensible'...
Marco.
I've no problem with being skeptical about anyone's claims. It's my default position.
But as far as 9/11 is concerned there is way too much evidence to show that it happened exactly as claimed and none whatsoever to demonstrate otherwise. A false flag op of that magnitude simply isn't viable.
Well, as before, we'll simply have to agree to disagree - and I have good cause to do so:)
You could still be a victim, as highlighted, of disregarding what doesn't suit your belief system or faith, without realising it.... And only seeing what you WANT to see!
None of that, however, detracts from the validity of what I wrote in post 60. It's not about *wanting* to believe in conspiracy theories, but rather testing the robustness of the supposed 'facts' you're being fed by the media, and how well they stand up to scrutiny. There are *always* two sides to every story. I never just automatically believe one side, without considering the other, no matter how apparently 'ludicrous' or uncomfortable to entertain.
Therefore, CHALLENGING the accepted norm/currently accepted wisdom, or the majority (popular) view, as others and I frequently do, is a sign of an enquiring/inquisitive mind, and the desire to discover the REAL truth, not stupidity or gullibility. So in answer to Joe, *that* is what's called being a free-thinker!
Heretics have always been vilified and considered as dangerous;)
However, if I'm presented with sufficient evidence, which satisfies me that I'm wrong, I'm openminded enough to change my views on 9/11 (and other thorny subjects, such as the assassination of Jill Dando, in relation to her intended exposure of paedophile rings, existing in rather high places, which I believe is the truth, not what the supposed 'facts' suggest), but so far I've seen none.
Marco.
I've no problem with being skeptical about anyone's claims.
Including your own?
Marco.
I'm not making any claims.
anthonyTD
25-09-2019, 13:30
The better side of humanity.
This is one example of why i still believe that the majority of people are good at heart, perhaps misguided, and guilty of the pack mentality at times, but potentialy good! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QntBkDFkiuY
I'm not making any claims.
Yes you are. You're claiming that the stated 'conspiracy theories' are wrong, so if given sufficient evidence refuting that, would you also be skeptical about thinking you were right?
Marco.
Yes you are. You're claiming that the stated 'conspiracy theories' are wrong, so if given sufficient evidence refuting that, would you also be skeptical about thinking you were right?
Marco.
In the case of 9/11 I'm not contesting the official version of events. That's not the same as making a claim.
Conspiracies do happen so I'm happy to entertain the idea of a conspiracy about pretty much anything. Moon Landings, Princess Diana, 9/11 and so on. I'll look at the evidence presented by those claiming conspiracy and weigh it up.
I won't dismiss it out of hand just because it goes against the official version or just because it requires a conspiracy to be true.
But as far as those three go the evidence for conspiracy is badly wanting. I could perhaps go for the idea that they knew 9/11 attack was going to happen but did nothing to stop it, so they could exploit the aftermath. I wouldn't put that past them. But I've seen no credible evidence presented to back that up.
Like Joe said big organizations like governments tend to be incompetent, slow and ineffectual at everything they do. There's a massive weight of evidence plus my own personal experience to back that up.
For these conspiracies to be true that would have to be a complete and deliberate illusion and governments would in fact need to be amazingly well-organized and competent in order to manufacture these events. How likely is that? I'd say there is zero chance.
Conspiracies do happen so I'm happy to entertain the idea of a conspiracy about pretty much anything. Moon Landings, Princess Diana, 9/11 and so on. I'll look at the evidence presented by those claiming conspiracy and weigh it up. I won't dismiss it out of hand just because it goes against the official version or just because it requires a conspiracy to be true.
Same here. And that's exactly what I did, at some length over a considerable period of time, but have come up with a different and equally valid view from yours.
What also needs to be remembered is that it's always easier finding evidence supporting the "official version" of events than the opposite, for various obvious reasons, one of which is that our 'controlling powers' will always ensure that their dirty tracks are covered up as best as possible - and they have the wherewithal, both in terms of manpower and finances, to ensure that that is the case.
However, that doesn't automatically mean that any claimed conspiracy is untrue, despite a seeming lack of evidence, because it could simply just have been very well covered up!
I'm afraid that when it comes to unadulterated inhuman greed, ego or image, and seeking ultimate wealth and power, at the expense of anyone who gets in their way, and protecting their own vile (and corrupt) best interests in the process, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past the elite [especially those within the Royal family, think what happened to Princess Diana], or those whose strings they're pulling - and that includes governments!
For these conspiracies to be true that would have to be a complete and deliberate illusion and governments would in fact need to be amazingly well-organized and competent in order to manufacture these events. How likely is that?
Perhaps more likely than you think, or indeed might want to believe;)
Marco.
AJSki2fly
25-09-2019, 15:00
Some interesting words I came across today that were written some years ago.
"Man is a danger.
Though essentially nothing more than sentient clay, he takes your breath away. He is a prodigy - a miracle.
Unique imagination generates unique ambition. Skill and knowledge, developing in tandem, provide the tools to realise ambition.
In absolute terms his deeds are neither good nor bad - simply good or bad for him, be it directly or indirectly. The only real sin is bad husbandry.
The world shall surely live on - long after he is gone - and the only useful advice to him would be caution.
Man is a danger - though less of a danger to the universe than to man himself.
Man is a danger.
As the angel - in Hadyn's oratorio 'The Creation" - warned Adam and Eve when they were given the custody of the garden:
O happy pair, and happy evermore
Provided folly lead you not astray
To wish for more than what you have
Or more to know for your good."
words by Patrick Woodroffe (27 October 1940 – 10 May 2014)
Beobloke
25-09-2019, 15:15
We're academics and we're rational, and we really believe Congress or someone should investigate this," says David Gabbard, an East Carolina education professor and 9/11 scholar. "But there are a lot of crazies out there who purport that UFOs were involved. We don't want to be lumped in with those folks
Too late!
Indeed! I’m surprised they haven’t suggested that Shergar was involved...
Come on, you can do better than that! Would you consider yourself, Adam, as a rather binary thinker? It seems to be a common trait among engineers and those who claim to be scientifically minded;)
See here: http://www.keypersonofinfluence.com/binary-thinking-vs-directional-thinking/
Marco.
A slightly worrying aspect of not believing what we're told is juries in crown court
I worked in a crown court for several years and sat through many criminal trials from fraud to murder, and I have to say that, even taking police and expert witness evidence as true and factual, I could not have convicted a single person had I been on the jury.
Jurors are directed to only find the defendant guilty if they are sure, beyond all reasonable doubt that the prosecution evidence proves the case, the defence has to prove nothing. Now any half decent barrister can plant reasonable doubt in the jurors' minds easily.
So if we then start to question expert testimony and police integrity we could potentially end up with literally thousands of often dangerous criminals getting away with horrific crimes because juries can't find them guilty
Same here. And that's exactly what I did, at some length over a considerable period of time, but have come up with a different and equally valid view from yours.
What also needs to be remembered is that it's always easier finding evidence supporting the "official version" of events than the opposite, for various obvious reasons, one of which is that our 'controlling powers' will always ensure that their dirty tracks are covered up as best as possible - and they have the wherewithal, both in terms of manpower and finances, to ensure that that is the case.
However, that doesn't automatically mean that any claimed conspiracy is untrue, despite a seeming lack of evidence, because it could simply just have been very well covered up!
I'm afraid that when it comes to unadulterated inhuman greed, ego or image, and seeking ultimate wealth and power, at the expense of anyone who gets in their way, and protecting their own vile (and corrupt) best interests in the process, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past the elite [especially those within the Royal family, think what happened to Princess Diana], or those whose strings they're pulling - and that includes governments!
Perhaps more likely than you think, or indeed might want to believe;)
Marco.
As regards the competence of governments and big organisations I don't require a leap of faith to know that it is true that they are generally completely useless. It isn't a question of belief or faith.
And the US government is even more useless than ours.
I don't live my life believing that reality is what I want to be true rather than what is actually true. I have a friend who lives that way and his life is a disaster as a consequence. Interestingly, he would be with you all the way on the 9/11 and Princess Di ----.
Frankly I couldn't care less if 9/11 was a conspiracy or if Di was assassinated. In fact it would be quite a lot more interesting to me if it was true. But it just isn't.
Frankly I couldn't care less if 9/11 was a conspiracy or if Di was assassinated. In fact it would be quite a lot more interesting to me if it was true. But it just isn't.
In your humble opinion.
Frankly, I couldn't care less what commonly accepted wisdom dictates on the matters being discussed, or what the 'facts' apparently prove. I'll make up my OWN mind - and always will.
I don't live my life believing that reality is what I want to be true, rather than what is actually true either, but I shall continue to challenge lies, cover-ups and corruption, whenever I consider it's necessary, and consequently my life is far from being a disaster;)
Free-thinking is healthy:)
Please don't describe perfectly valid views, contrary to yours, as "shit".
Marco.
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