Are you a budget audiophile?

[magiccarpetride]

I am a sitcom guy (single income, two kids, oppressive mortgage). I must watch my money carefully. Hence, I am always on a tight budget when shopping for audio components.

If you're in the same boat, how about sharing some pointers? What's the most optimal approach to get to the point of assembling a decent system without breaking the bank? Shop for used? Seek out slightly broken stuff and then diy fix it? Look for the emergent, so-called "giant killers"?

[Ali Tait]

DIY!

[John]

Dislike the word audiophile!! Music lover yes and agree with Ali DIY or kits usually best sound per pound Also good knowledge of Hifi from the past

[Ali Tait]

Yes agree John,I'm far more of a music lover than a kit freak.

[Rare Bird]

Yes agree John,I'm far more of a music lover than a kit freak.

Same here, i content now but i do have a list of things i need to tidy up but it's the cash all the time..Gives me bloody sleepless nights most nights :(

[Stratmangler]

Music lover here first and foremost.

Been fortunate to have been given a couple of nice pieces of kit - my TT is a prime example.

I have to get around to refoaming the surrounds on my latest donated pieces of kit - Monitor Audio MA2 Reference Monitors. The suspension foam has perished on the bass and mid range drivers on both cabinets, so 4 drivers to sort out.
Had a good chat with Andrew I at the last Owston, and I'm almost feeling brave enough to have a go at the job myself.
I also might have a go at replicating the crossovers with more current capacitors and what have you.

[Codifus]

I am the consumate budget audiophile!

And speaking of budget, I remember you looking for an amp earlier......if it's not too late you should give the Behringer's a good look. Wickedly powerful and fantastically cheap. They actually sound good, too. I had a Yamaha AX-596 integrated amp. It is now retired:) It sounded great but with my new found discovery of bypassing the pre-amp, I need more power, way more.

The A500 is Behringer's baby amp and you have to WATCH setting the gains or it will develop the piano-solo-distortion-of-death. Behringer developed a tarnished reputation with their amps mostly due to the A500. I've had 2 of them. Both eventually suffered from the aforementioned piano solo shinanigans.

Now I have big brother EP2000. I stayed with Behringer because;

1. They are cheap!
2. They really sound good!
3. The bad rap (on the amplifier side) seemed to be mostly the A500. The bigger EP series amps are quite robust and have the same, nice sound.

The EP2000 is a BEAST. 750 to 1000 watts per channel. It's actual rating is 2000 wpc into 4 ohms..... a bit of a strecth apparently. Still, conservatively rating it at 750 to 1000 wpc? Is that not enough? The EP2000 is really built for the professional market, so it only has XLR inputs and a noisy fan. I switched my fan for a quieter one. If you can switch an opamp in your Caiman/7520, then you can do the fan mod. To connect my 7520 I used the samson s-convert to push the consumer level RCA voltages/impedances up to the pro level XLR voltages/impedances needed in the EP 2000.

Sounds great:)

CD

[The Vinyl Adventure]

music ... thats for idiots... i just like haveing expensive looking stuff littering my house

[magiccarpetride]

I am the consumate budget audiophile!

And speaking of budget, I remember you looking for an amp earlier......if it's not too late you should give the Behringer's a good look. Wickedly powerful and fantastically cheap. They actually sound good, too. I had a Yamaha AX-596 integrated amp. It is now retired:) It sounded great but with my new found discovery of bypassing the pre-amp, I need more power, way more.

The A500 is Behringer's baby amp and you have to WATCH setting the gains or it will develop the piano-solo-distortion-of-death. Behringer developed a tarnished reputation with their amps mostly due to the A500. I've had 2 of them. Both eventually suffered from the aforementioned piano solo shinanigans.

Now I have big brother EP2000. I stayed with Behringer because;

1. They are cheap!
2. They really sound good!
3. The bad rap (on the amplifier side) seemed to be mostly the A500. The bigger EP series amps are quite robust and have the same, nice sound.

The EP2000 is a BEAST. 750 to 1000 watts per channel. It's actual rating is 2000 wpc into 4 ohms..... a bit of a strecth apparently. Still, conservatively rating it at 750 to 1000 wpc? Is that not enough? The EP2000 is really built for the professional market, so it only has XLR inputs and a noisy fan. I switched my fan for a quieter one. If you can switch an opamp in your Caiman/7520, then you can do the fan mod. To connect my 7520 I used the samson s-convert to push the consumer level RCA voltages/impedances up to the pro level XLR voltages/impedances needed in the EP 2000.

Sounds great:)

CD

Whoa, you got me very excited now about the Behringer EP2000! How much money are we talking? What's the best way to get it?

Talk to me!

[magiccarpetride]

Yes agree John,I'm far more of a music lover than a kit freak.

There are three things to discern here:

1. music
2. sound
3. kit/gear

For the purposes of this conversation, I'm going to claim that I'm a sound freak. Yes, music comes first and foremost (duh!), but being a musician myself, I get to satisfy that craving while I'm sitting/standing with my guitar strapped on, preferably with my mates rehearsing/performing.

When I sit down in front of my 2 channel stereo, I first and foremost detect SOUND. The art of sound, eh? Sound to me is like a drug. I must have it. And the recording artists are like purveyors of high quality drugs.

The best way to get that fix of high quality sound is to work on assembling a well balanced audio system. Isn't that why we're spending time here, on this bloody forum?

[John]

music ... thats for idiots... i just like haveing expensive looking stuff littering my house
That be me then:lolsign:

[Ali Tait]

Alex,if you're looking for a good cheap amp,check out the Hlly T-amp 90 on ebay.It's a great sounding bit of kit for not a lot of cash.I wasn't expecting much,but I was really taken aback by how good this amp is.

[goraman]

Every one is on a budget, some just have bigger budgets than others.

The 1950's Dynaco ST 35 is very rare,Not very menny made unlike most Dynaco stuff.
This is a fantastic little amp,I have been lucky to hear an origanl one and TE's upgraded reissue is also very well recived.
This little amp has way more iron than it needs,and the 17 watts per channel are as sweet as any EL84 amp costing menny times more.


http://store.triodestore.com/diy35kit.html

[Codifus]

Whoa, you got me very excited now about the Behringer EP2000! How much money are we talking? What's the best way to get it?

Talk to me!

In the US, The EP2000 is $300. The A500 is about $200 for 250 wpc. The A500 is more consumer friendly in that it has RCA inputs and is totally silent with no fan. Of course there's its reputation to consider:confused:

The EP2000 is;
1. Bullet proof. Gobs of power that will hurt you:)
2. NOT completely consumer friendly (XLRs needing s-convert for your Caiman.)
3. Requires an easy fan mod to be quiet.

But, after that, I think your wife and neighbours will all hate me:gig:

CD

Here's the fan mod;

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45137&highlight=behringer+fan+mod

The Behringer EP1500, 2000, 2500 and 4000 all share the same exact chassis. The EP1500 and 2000 are a more audiophile friendly class AB amplifier design whereas the 2500 and 4000 are class H.

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,if you're looking for a good cheap amp,check out the Hlly T-amp 90 on ebay.It's a great sounding bit of kit for not a lot of cash.I wasn't expecting much,but I was really taken aback by how good this amp is.

Will that amp be powerful enough to drive my Maggies (steady 5 Ohm impedance, 82 dB sensitivity)?

[magiccarpetride]

In the US, The EP2000 is $300. The A500 is about $200 for 250 wpc. The A500 is more consumer friendly in that it has RCA inputs and is totally silent with no fan. Of course there's its reputation to consider:confused:

The EP2000 is;
1. Bullet proof. Gobs of power that will hurt you:)
2. NOT completely consumer friendly (XLRs needing s-convert for your Caiman.)
3. Requires an easy fan mod to be quiet.

But, after that, I think your wife and neighbours will all hate me:gig:

CD

Here's the fan mod;

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45137&highlight=behringer+fan+mod

The Behringer EP1500, 2000, 2500 and 4000 all share the same exact chassis. The EP1500 and 2000 are a more audiophile friendly class AB amplifier design whereas the 2500 and 4000 are class H.

Thanks. How loud is the fan? Also, can I use my pre-amp instead of going variable from the Caiman?

[Codifus]

Thanks. How loud is the fan? Also, can I use my pre-amp instead of going variable from the Caiman?
If you were to leave the orignal fan intact then I would suggest that you locate the amplifier in another room:)

Of course you can hook up a your pre-amp as well.

CD

[magiccarpetride]

The A500 is Behringer's baby amp and you have to WATCH setting the gains or it will develop the piano-solo-distortion-of-death. Behringer developed a tarnished reputation with their amps mostly due to the A500. I've had 2 of them. Both eventually suffered from the aforementioned piano solo shinanigans.

Can you explain in a bit more detail what's the problem with A500? What do you mean by the "piano-solo-distortion-of-death"? What about watching the gains?

The reason I ask is mostly because I don't feel like going through the pains of upgrading the fan on the EP2000. Is A500 acceptable if set properly?

[Themis]

I am not (anymore) a consumer audiophile. But I like reasonably-priced pieces of kit.

Why pay more, when you can get more with the same money ? ;)

[Ali Tait]

Will that amp be powerful enough to drive my Maggies (steady 5 Ohm impedance, 82 dB sensitivity)?

Yes.It drives my statics no problem.

[John]

It might be worth hunting down the Chamalion This is a very good amp and will handle your maggies without any worries in fact I would imagine it to be a match made in Heaven
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6480

[Codifus]

Can you explain in a bit more detail what's the problem with A500? What do you mean by the "piano-solo-distortion-of-death"? What about watching the gains?

The reason I ask is mostly because I don't feel like going through the pains of upgrading the fan on the EP2000. Is A500 acceptable if set properly?

Give the A500 a go, and make sure you have a good return policy. The only reason I have the EP2000 is because my luck with the A500s, well, wasn't:)

What I believe the issue is with the A500 is that if you set the gain too high, you damage the input section of the amplifier. Most amplifiers can handle being overloaded at the input side, but apparently not the A500. Once the input side of the A500 is damaged, there will be this subtle distortion in all of your music. This distortion becomes painfully obvious if you play piano solos. Hence the name:)

CD

[Rare Bird]

One thing you have to learn is 'it don't matter what people think about your gear as long as it sounds good to you' if it be old or new..Expensive doesnt always mean good, there's actually more cheap good than expensive good.

[magiccarpetride]

One thing you have to learn is 'it don't matter what people think about your gear as long as it sounds good to you' if it be old or new..Expensive doesnt always mean good, there's actually more cheap good than expensive good.

Music to my ears:)

[magiccarpetride]

Give the A500 a go, and make sure you have a good return policy. The only reason I have the EP2000 is because my luck with the A500s, well, wasn't:)

What I believe the issue is with the A500 is that if you set the gain too high, you damage the input section of the amplifier. Most amplifiers can handle being overloaded at the input side, but apparently not the A500. Once the input side of the A500 is damaged, there will be this subtle distortion in all of your music. This distortion becomes painfully obvious if you play piano solos. Hence the name:)

CD

Thanks David. Stupid question (there's no such thing as stupid question?!?): how do I control the gain?

[magiccarpetride]

It might be worth hunting down the Chamalion This is a very good amp and will handle your maggies without any worries in fact I would imagine it to be a match made in Heaven
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6480

How much is that baby (and what's the best place to buy it from)?

[leo]

Mainly DIY for me , less compromises for my needs anyway :)

[Codifus]

Thanks David. Stupid question (there's no such thing as stupid question?!?): how do I control the gain?

Looking at the A500, the left and right circle are the L and R gains for the amp;

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/A500.aspx

The best way to set the gain is to do this;

record 2 to 3 minutes of a 100 Hz sine wave tone at 0 db. Burn it to CD.
Play the CD through your Caiman or pre-amp with the Caiman or pre-amp's volume set to maximum. While the tone continues to play, slowly turn the knobs on the A500 up from zero until the LEDs on the A500 show that clipping is occuring.

Done.

CD

[John]

How much is that baby (and what's the best place to buy it from)?
You have to search on ebay and be paitent
Tim from Mad was telling me a few speakers manufactures use this to test as it is so transparent It will eaisly cope with the load of your speakers and then some, it will let your system shine if your system up to it, it will give you speed lots of dynamics and keep it all tight and coherant A lot of studios use this but don't worry its very musical

[magiccarpetride]

Looking at the A500, the left and right circle are the L and R gains for the amp;

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/A500.aspx

The best way to set the gain is to do this;

record 2 to 3 minutes of a 100 Hz sine wave tone at 0 db. Burn it to CD.
Play the CD through your Caiman or pre-amp with the Caiman or pre-amp's volume set to maximum. While the tone continues to play, slowly turn the knobs on the A500 up from zero until the LEDs on the A500 show that clipping is occuring.

Done.

CD

Wow. You're such a great help, mate. Another stupid question from me (by now, you must be really running out of patience, I know:) -- What's the best way to record a 100 Hz sine wave tone at 0 dB? (keeping in mind that I'm a Mac guy).

[Codifus]

Wow. You're such a great help, mate. Another stupid question from me (by now, you must be really running out of patience, I know:) -- What's the best way to record a 100 Hz sine wave tone at 0 dB? (keeping in mind that I'm a Mac guy).

Send me a private message with your e-mail addy and I'll send you an AIFF you can load into iTunes and burn from there.

CD

[Codifus]

Alex,

you've got mail:)

[ReggieB]

For me, getting a bargain is part of the fun of buying hi-fi. To achieve that regularly, I think you need two things: good knowledge of which hi-fi kit is good and what constitutes a good price.

Hi-fi kit
For me that means reading reviews, monitoring hi-fi magazines, and getting involved in forums such as this, as well as taking opportunities to listening to kit (at shops, shows and friend's houses).

Also identifying the kit that is good but not too well known as this is kit that tends to go for a good price towards the end of the product life, and second hand.

Price
You need to monitor prices. That means watching prices in hi-fi stores (perusing bargain areas, sales promotions, and open box sales). It also means watching ebay to get a good feel for second hand prices.

Then if you get a good feel for what's good, you can snap up a bargain when you see it available for a good price.

Lastly - if you buy good kit at a good price, you'll be able to sell it for a reasonable price. That means you can afford to experiment. Buy equipment cheaply, and you can afford to change it and hunt down the kit that works best for you. You can afford to take the journey to find the hi-fi that suits you and the music you enjoy most.

... oh and be patient.

[aquapiranha]

I like the DIY route. Not only do you get very good kit at low prices compared to the overpriced bling that some are duped into buying, but you get the satisfaction of knowing you built it yourself. I have built a couple of pairs of speakers and cobbled together a couple of amps using bits on the net. I am lucky also in that I like the Tripath sound, and that nearly always comes cheap. It is hardly ever as difficult as you might imagine.

[Rare Bird]

I like the DIY route. Not only do you get very good kit at low prices compared to the overpriced bling that some are duped into buying, but you get the satisfaction of knowing you built it yourself.

Thats true Steve but many many people pay money for the company name & model number which is pathetic really.

[aquapiranha]

Thats true Steve but many many people pay money for the company name & model number which is pathetic really.

Indeed they do Andre, but I like to think that as long as something is doing what it should, I don't mind what it looks like! Which reminds me I need to get round to putting the cover on my CD player... :lol:

[Steve Toy]

Set the bloody thing up properly in the first place thus enabling you to jump off the never-ending merry-go-round of box swaps. A well setup system will always outperform one that is just parked on an Ikea type stand and wired together with string no matter how expensive the boxes are.

I still see a lot of box-swapping discussions between folks with poorly set-up systems. I'm sorry guys but until you alter your approach you are pissing in the wind! ;)

:sofa:

[aquapiranha]

Set the bloody thing up properly in the first place thus enabling you to jump off the never-ending merry-go-round of box swaps. A well setup system will always outperform one that is just parked on an Ikea type stand and wired together with string no matter how expensive the boxes are.

I still see a lot of box-swapping discussions between folks with poorly set-up systems. I'm sorry guys but until you alter your approach you are pissing in the wind! ;)

:sofa:

Duh! I am so stupid! for twenty years I ahve been 'pissing in the wind' when I was listening to music I could have been listening to the equipment support instead! how silly of me. Thaks for pointing out the error of my ways steve, I will go now and flog all my sub standard poorly set up / supported shite 'hifi' on ebay...

:rolleyes:

[Rare Bird]

Duh! I am so stupid! for twenty years I ahve been 'pissing in the wind' when I was listening to music I could have been listening to the equipment support instead! how silly of me. Thaks for pointing out the error of my ways steve, I will go now and flog all my sub standard poorly set up / supported shite 'hifi' on ebay...

:rolleyes:

:)

Na you won't gain anything by doing that

You gear will sound just the same even if it's sat on pile of bog rolls.I'm sorry to say this for the millionth time, a piece of granite sat ontop of my sideboard is all i'll ever want cos i live in the real world see..

[Steve Toy]

You go chuck the baby out with the bathwater then (and miss the point) :lol:

[Steve Toy]

Andre, your opinion is just that - it is not backed up by experience.

I knew a few folks were going to get a bit narky about the prospect of not pissing in the wind. Perhaps the box-swap merry-go-round for a different flavour (but no more music) is what it's all about and I'm missing out on all the fun!

[aquapiranha]

Andre, your opinion is just that - it is not backed up by experience.

I knew a few folks were going to get a bit narky about the prospect of not pissing in the wind. Perhaps the box-swap merry-go-round for a different flavour (but no more music) is what it's all about and I'm missing out on all the fun!

steve, if I swapped my gear as often as you add bits of plastic eveywhere then you could accuse me of being a box swapper too.

If this going to turn into the usual cyclic 'I have golden ears / my equipment is able to show differences yours can't' etc shit then I am off.

[Rare Bird]

Andre, your opinion is just that - it is not backed up by experience.



Where your wrong Steve i do have experience & to be frank it's all a pile of bollox, unless you convice yourself otherwise..

[swampy]

box-swap merry-go-round

Some people like box swapping as it can be a major part of this hobby at the end of the day to many. Same as people like to diy or kit build. Most diy'ers don't usually stop at the first or 2nd build. I've built about 10 kits so far and several scratch builds and some get sold on for another project.

It's all part of the fun. Also you find that your ears, music taste, room etc may change over years so box swapping and hifi changes may be required to keep a sound you like.

[John]

Good isolation can make a difference but it effects can be very hit and miss
For instance isolation under my balanced mains supply a big difference, under my dac none that I can hear

[Rare Bird]

Good isolation can make a difference but it effects can be very hit and miss
For instance isolation under my balanced mains supply a big difference, under my dac none that I can hear

But we don't want the 'do as i say or it's wrong' bull shit ramming down your throught all the time.. Everyones ideas are all different, you do what you want, there aint no gospel..I don't want to sound rude or pull anyones gear down it's not my intention but i've heard that copper amp & i do not like the sound of it, but as i say everyones ideas are different.I often get my old amp slagged off by people but i think it's great. it's how it goes..

[John]

Andre I am not doing the ramming down bullshit far from it
Lets put it this way it really is going vary from system to system

[Rare Bird]

Andre I am not doing the ramming down bullshit far from it

John
You misunderstand i wasnt refering to you at all..

[John]

ahh sorry

[swampy]

i've heard that copper amp & i do not like the sound of it,

I'd rather buy something like this if you want the punch of a push-pull... Cheaper

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/670

Maxed out with all the best parts you rarely get in commercial gear and assembly cost is not too bad for non diy'ers out there.

[Steve Toy]

steve, if I swapped my gear as often as you add bits of plastic eveywhere then you could accuse me of being a box swapper too.


Where do you get this silly idea that I keep adding bits of plastic? Everywhere indeed! :lol:

Why are you getting so defensive and precious about this?


If this going to turn into the usual cyclic 'I have golden ears / my equipment is able to show differences yours can't' etc shit then I am off.

Golden ears don't come into it when the effects of getting the setup right are so significant. If it was that subtle it would be pointless!

The system (equipment + ancilliaries) is as good as its weakest link. Until you've found that weak point none of any of the other changes you may make will be particularly beneficial. Your statement above shows that you cannot escape the notion that the equipment itself is the be-all-and-end-all.

The other changes include:

Supports/isolation - decoupling external sources of vibration and grounding internal sources of same.

Cabling + connections and dressing thereof

Mains setup, earthing, order in which components are plugged in

Positioning of equipment in the room (not just the speakers) and proximity of power supplies to other more sensitive equipment, proximity of digital devices to other pieces of kit, proximity of kit to magnetic fields and the elimination of the latter where critical/appropriate/feasible.

Consider all of the above points and your system is likely to provide you with considerable greater music listening pleasure within any given budget.

If you wish to ignore the above then please just do that instead of ramming your negativity down the throats of the rest of us!

[Rare Bird]

You a miracle of modern man Steve seems you have the perfect stereo system. Well done.

But next year i'm sure i'll something different! ;)

[aquapiranha]

Where do you get this silly idea that I keep adding bits of plastic? Everywhere indeed! :lol:

Why are you getting so defensive and precious about this?



Golden ears don't come into it when the effects of getting the setup right are so significant. If it was that subtle it would be pointless!

The system (equipment + ancilliaries) is as good as its weakest link. Until you've found that weak point none of any of the other changes you may make will be particularly beneficial. Your statement above shows that you cannot escape the notion that the equipment itself is the be-all-and-end-all.

The other changes include:

Supports/isolation - decoupling external sources of vibration and grounding internal sources of same.

Cabling + connections and dressing thereof

Mains setup, earthing, order in which components are plugged in

Positioning of equipment in the room (not just the speakers) and proximity of power supplies to other more sensitive equipment, proximity of digital devices to other pieces of kit, proximity of kit to magnetic fields and the elimination of the latter where critical/appropriate/feasible.

Consider all of the above points and your system is likely to provide you with considerable greater music listening pleasure within any given budget.

If you wish to ignore the above then please just do that instead of ramming your negativity down the throats of the rest of us!

I am not ramming anything down anyones throat!

It is obvious from just that one post that you are incredibly arrogant when it comes to what you know and what you consider others don't know. Pointless arguing over petty things is not why I joined this forum, however since my beliefs do not tally with the 'ethos' of this forum, I think it best if I leave before I infect anyone else with my 'negativity' FFS

Those who matter already have my email address, bye all!

[Rare Bird]

Well said..

[Steve Toy]

Steve you have just trodden into ad hominem territory. Do you not know any better?

Andre, my system is not perfect but every change I make is intended to be a genuine improvement in retrieval of musical performance not just a change of flavour. I hope that next year my system will do everything it does this year and more besides.


Well said..


That's like saying "good riddance!" He's just had the equivalent of a door-slamming strop.

Changing the equipment is fine if it results in a genuine improvement in performance and a step closer to realism. I suspect a few here just fancy a change which is hardly in keeping with the OP question


Are you a budget audiophile?

Perhaps the answer in some cases can be

"Yes but I (don't) want to waste my hard earned on going round in ever decreasing circles making changes for change's sake."

I don't wish to offend anyone but I do like to tell it like it is. I know some folks have been in this game for years and are therefore very experienced. I also know that you can go round in circles for years too. Perhaps after 20+ years it might be an idea to try a new approach, one which involves looking (and listening) beyond the boxes....

As for the DIY folks all I can say is :respect: as I don't have the skills myself.

Those of you who have the requisite skills can cut out a lot of wasteful expenditure on middle men, marketing, VAT and superficial gloss. You can invest all of your time and resources into the very best components. You can also recoup your costs by selling on bits of kit you've made. I guess I'm stating the obvious to those into DIY but this can extend to the ancilliaries too.

A qualified sparky should be used for the mains stuff though.

The rest of us have much to lose in endless box swapping only to be ultimately disappointed because the changes were only sideways moves.

Taking a more holistic approach to system building might prove rather refreshing so why kick out against it?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

you cant spell steve, its ad hominem ;) :lolsign:

i tell you i do crack my self up sometimes

[Steve Toy]

It's a shit computer riddled to hell and back with adware/malware/spyware. As such typos occur. I'm also a crap one-finger typist.

[Joe]

Set the bloody thing up properly in the first place thus enabling you to jump off the never-ending merry-go-round of box swaps. A well setup system will always outperform one that is just parked on an Ikea type stand and wired together with string no matter how expensive the boxes are.

I still see a lot of box-swapping discussions between folks with poorly set-up systems. I'm sorry guys but until you alter your approach you are pissing in the wind! ;)

:sofa:

Does that apply to people who keep adding souped-up accessories to Japanese direct-drive turntables?

[Steve Toy]

Does that apply to people who keep adding souped-up accessories to Japanese direct-drive turntables?


Not if the Japanese direct-drive turntable is on a decent support, its power supply is fed clean mains and it's setup properly, no.

[Joe]

Not if the Japanese direct-drive turntable is on a decent support, its power supply is fed clean mains and it's setup properly, no.

OK. I'd have thought your philosophy of not pissing in the wind would involve buying a better turntable in the first place rather than faffing about with new power supplies, motors, platters, counterweights et al ad infinitum.

[Steve Toy]

Naah, buying a "better turntable in the first place" would be box swapping rather than making the most of what you've got first. The whole ancilliaries thing is about optimising what you have before changing it for something supposedly better.

Moreover, when you've optimised your existing system by setting it up properly subsequent component upgrades tend to make an even bigger improvement.

[Marco]

Guys,

This is an interesting discussion, but can we please just be a bit less provocative towards each other?

There is a distinct 'niggle' in the air at the moment, which doesn't sit too well with the friendly atmosphere I want on AOS.

Robust debates are good, but *only* when they're well received by all parties concerned, otherwise it moves from robust debating to something rather more unsavoury.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[leo]

Naah, buying a "better turntable in the first place" would be box swapping rather than making the most of what you've got first. The whole ancilliaries thing is about optimising what you have before changing it for something supposedly better.

Moreover, when you've optimised your existing system by setting it up properly subsequent component upgrades tend to make an even bigger improvement.

Agreed ! I'd personally prefer to learn and fully understand what I already have, work out what I'd consider weakness and sort it. Its not often box swapping can give you exactly what you want imo

Just reading the various posts on here, its very easy to see why these types of discussions go around in circles

[Steve Toy]

Anthony's done some mods to my pre and there is further potential. It'll be a very long time before I swap this pre for anything else. However, I'd like to save for the new Revo rack as it'll upgrade every component that sits on it. I know because I've already heard what it does.

I'm also keen to hear what Furutech plugs do to mains leads. I suspect that will be a biggie too.

[Ian Walker]

It's a shit computer riddled to hell and back with adware/malware/spyware. As such typos occur. I'm also a crap one-finger typist.

mmm the mind boggles as to what youve been viewing to get RIDDLED with that lot Stevie boy:lol:

[aquapiranha]

mmm the mind boggles as to what youve been viewing to get RIDDLED with that lot Stevie boy:lol:

www.plasticfetishistsanonymous.com

and

www.voicesinmyhead.com


:lol:

[Rare Bird]

First links dead is it a Celine Dion link? :)

[Steve Toy]

More ad hominem steve. Do you know any better?

[aquapiranha]

More ad hominem steve. Do you know any better?

No I dont. Why would you quote latin? do you think it somehow makes you sound intelligent? Mind you, at least you spelt it right this time.

[Marco]

Steve (the Toyster one), I think if you dish it out, dude, you have to be able to take it back! :eyebrows:

Don't go down the old 'ad hominem' route either or you'll end up sounding like Richard Dunn!! :doh:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Ian, it's a very old PC - older than Tasha and I have been together :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

He nicked it from Richard Dunn!

[Steve Toy]

Marco I didn't dish it out remember. So what you are saying is that controversial statements warrant the response of playing the man not the ball.

This is a new development.

[Ali Tait]

No,but a lot of your posts come across as arrogant and condescending Steve.

[Marco]

So what you are saying is that controversial statements warrant the response of playing the man not the ball.


Nope, just that if you insist on pushing some people's buttons, they'll likely return the compliment, that's all ;)

Let's keep this one friendly banter only though please, chaps! :cool:

Marco.

[aquapiranha]

Marco I didn't dish it out remember. So what you are saying is that controversial statements warrant the response of playing the man not the ball.

This is a new development.

Steve, we were having a nice discussion about DIY / budget gear and you jumped in and essentially decreed that by using your logic we are all wasting our time. If that is not going to ruffle a few feathers then I do not know what will.

[Ian Walker]

Ian, it's a very old PC - older than Tasha and I have been together :eyebrows:


"It was just a wee accident..... Whilst searching innocently for black pudding for a dinner party, he ended up with this:

FORBIDDEN ERROR 403:lol:

[Steve Toy]

Steve, I was responding perhaps belatedly to the title of the thread.

I made no derogatory remarks about DIY. On the contrary.

I challenge one of you guys to design and make a rack that deals effectively with vibration. If it looks nice that's an added bonus.

Barry and Mike are already making decent interconnects so it can't be said that ancilliaries are off-limits to DIY-ers.

I don't know why plastics are stigmatised as a material for equipment supports when it is ideal given its inertness and quickness to transfer energy in the form of vibration to ground. From an aesthetic POV perhaps an orgy of wood, glass and bits of metal would be more impressive in the living room but I was under the impression that form was meant to follow function especially in DIY.

[aquapiranha]

I already make my own speaker cables and interconnects as well as speakers Steve. I have in the past used many, many different things as equipment supports from purpose built ones to, yes, lack tables (recommended by Linn incidently to support an LP12) I am currently using a 5 tier Target stand that is years old. I nearly built my own rack a while ago from ply but was sidetracked. I don't care what anything looks like as long as it does the job! DIY is simply a way of getting something that would otherwise cost an arm and a leg from a 'reputable' manufacturer as well as a cheap upgrade path as I have found for example with a couple of amps and my Arcam CD player.

[swampy]

I don't care what anything looks like as long as it does the job!

I must admit to liking a nice case to put a build in and trying to make it look close to a 'proper' manufactured item but that is just me I guess. I see many just make amps on bits of wood.. Some of these monster Russian tubes put together on a sheet of wood look kinda scary when powered up with bare terminals everywhere !!

[Rare Bird]

I must admit to liking a nice case to put a build in and trying to make it look close to a 'proper' manufactured item but that is just me I guess. I see many just make amps on bits of wood.. Some of these monster Russian tubes put together on a sheet of wood look kinda scary when powered up with bare terminals everywhere !!

You into modular Moogs then swampy? polyfusion what ever it is

[Alex_UK]

I used to get all agitated by these sort of threads, then I realised I'm actually an imposter, and shouldn't be here at all - BAM! it hit me one day, I'm into music, not hifi!

[Marco]

Not to mention wearing a gimp suit and a santa hat in a rather jaunty manner.... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

Not to mention wearing a gimp suit and a santa hat in a rather jaunty manner.... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Yeah baby! You forgot the bath full of baked beans! :eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

I used to get all agitated by these sort of threads, then I realised I'm actually an imposter, and shouldn't be here at all - BAM! it hit me one day, I'm into music, not hifi!

Same here but my intention is to just wind people up on a purpose :lolsign:

[Steve Toy]

...except that you are the one that goes off in a strop!

[Rare Bird]

don't let that worry you..

[Marco]

Hi Andre,

Just to clarify something....


i've heard that copper amp & i do not like the sound of it, but as i say everyones ideas are different.I often get my old amp slagged off by people but i think it's great. it's how it goes..

Indeed, but it wasn't the copper amp you heard at Scalford Hall, dude. It was Anthony's SE Soul amp, which was used for most of the day, certainly when you were there.

The copper amp was only used very late in the day for about an hour, and remember you left early because old Dave wanted to skedaddle :)

Marco.

[swampy]

You into modular Moogs then swampy? polyfusion what ever it is

Hell yeah.

But I only have a vsti version of my own... Arturia Moog Modular

[Rare Bird]

Hell yeah.

But I only have a vsti version of my own... Arturia Moog Modular

Synth.com system is my next venture deffo

[Rare Bird]

Hi Andre,

Just to clarify something....

Indeed, but it wasn't the copper amp you heard at Scalford Hall, dude. It was Anthony's SE Soul amp, which was used for most of the day, certainly when you were there.

The copper amp was only used very late in the day for about an hour.

Yeh i realised this awhile after i posted, but thought it had gone unoticed :eyebrows: ..Either way it's not any valve amps fault i'm just not a valve amp fan i don't like the sound of em..

.

[Marco]

I notice everything written on here..... :eyebrows:

Lol, yup I think you were the only one (along with Jerry, in certain respects), but like you say, each to his or her own ;)

Marco.

P.S I saw you edit - don't worry, it's best being honest!

[swampy]

Do you mean synthesizers.com ?

Need deep pockets for this one.... the studio 110

http://www.synthesizers.com/studio110.htm


What about this for a diy build

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/06/03/impressive-diy-midi-controller-the-station/

Don't so much care about the music though!!

[Rare Bird]

Do you mean synthesizers.com ?

Need deep pockets



yeh i was just too idle to write it in full :)

Buy as you can afford the modules. The Sequencers are the money..Still cheaper & more reliable than a Moog Modular

[Rare Bird]

I notice everything written on here..... :eyebrows:

P.S I saw you edit - don't worry, it's best to be honest!

Yeh i realised the re-percusions might have presented us with a few ten pages of bollox from wonder boy so thought it best not.

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Indeed, but it wasn't the copper amp you heard at Scalford Hall, dude. It was Anthony's SE Soul amp, which was used for most of the day, certainly when you were there.

The copper amp was only used very late in the day for about an hour, and remember you left early because old Dave wanted to skedaddle ?

Marco.

__________________

Indeed. If I remember correctly Andre was positively drooling over the Soul amp and was waiting on his lottery win.

The Copper amp was barely on long enough to warm up but sounded a lot more together for having done so.

Anyway Andre, if you want to call my amp a poof to get a rise out of me then knock yerself out ode lad! :)

[Rare Bird]

Indeed. If I remember correctly Andre was positively drooling over the Soul amp and was waiting on his lottery win.

The Copper amp was barely on long enough to warm up but sounded a lot more together for having done so.

Anyway Andre, if you want to call my amp a poof to get a rise out of me then knock yerself out ode lad! :)

The soul was a beautiful creation without a doubt but doesnt alter the fact i don't like the sound of valve amps hence the reason i don't like them, whats hard to understand about that.. sunbeam?

Again i think the copper amps look loverly (call it a ''poof''!! what an odd childlike phrase) but who are you to get off telling people they are wong if it's not set up to your ideal? can i ask who told you yours was set up correctly??

[Steve Toy]

can i ask who told you yours was set up correctly??



There is more than one way to skin a cat. The important thing is that setup is a consideration rather than just plonking stuff down, stringing it together and hoping for the very best. I was taught by a number of different stand fetishists plus I use my ears. They will always be the final arbiter. They don't have to be golden, they just have to be used!

[Rare Bird]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. The important thing is that setup is a consideration rather than just plonking stuff down, stringing it together and hoping for the very best. I was taught by a number of different stand fetishists plus I use my ears. They will always be the final arbiter. They don't have to be golden, they just have to be used!

You be a good politician Steve ;) without evading the question again who told you your system was set up correctly?? or is this gonna be another Gospel according to St.Toy.

[Marco]

Just watch where this one goes, folks. You guys will never agree on this subject (and that's fine), so I'm not sure there's much constructive point to this particular debate.......

Marco.

[swampy]

i don't like the sound of valve amps

I've gone full circle now over the last several years. Started with DIY SS and a few budget SS amps, then several kit tube amps from WAD and Brian at DiyHS inc P-P, 300B, 2A3 etc. Finally a Lang 845SE before going back to SS.

Each has their merits but I can understand why some prefer Tube or SS depending on ears and music taste. I like SS for newage, synth music, electronica etc as many tube amps to me seem to lose on excitement factor for this type of music but some tube amps are hard to beat for texture if you like traditional instruments and vocals. My 300B Monos were amazing on blues and chamber but utter boring on synth stuff with sequencing.

[Steve Toy]

Marco, the pointy bits at the top of the picket fence must be hurting your arse. Off with the mod hat and join the discussion!

[Ian Walker]

You be a good politician Steve ;) without evading the question again who told you your system was set up correctly?? or is this gonna be another Gospel according to St.Toy.

I did, i taught him everything he knows:lol:

[Steve Toy]

Actually Ian I think you taught Marco first!

[Rare Bird]

Marco, the pointy bits at the top of the picket fence must be hurting your arse. Off with the mod hat and join the discussion!

Why should he it's you own hole your digging.

[Marco]

Marco, the pointy bits at the top of the picket fence must be hurting your arse. Off with the mod hat and join the discussion!

Lol - I just don't see the point in engaging Andre in stand discussions; it's completely fruitless, as our views on that subject are so diametrically opposed. But I don't have a problem with that - it's a free country.

I'm also trying to avoid yesterday's contretemps.......

Far better for Andre and me to chat about more important matters, and something we agree on, like vintage hi-fi ;)

Incidentally, you certainly taught Ian about the joys of pishcatchers! :lol:

Marco.

[aquapiranha]

I've gone full circle now over the last several years. Started with DIY SS and a few budget SS amps, then several kit tube amps from WAD and Brian at DiyHS inc P-P, 300B, 2A3 etc. Finally a Lang 845SE before going back to SS.

Each has their merits but I can understand why some prefer Tube or SS depending on ears and music taste. I like SS for newage, synth music, electronica etc as many tube amps to me seem to lose on excitement factor for this type of music but some tube amps are hard to beat for texture if you like traditional instruments and vocals. My 300B Monos were amazing on blues and chamber but utter boring on synth stuff with sequencing.

always interesting to hear about the journeys others have made regarding equipment, and the reasons why thanks.

[webby]

To answer the original question: Yep, I hold my hands up. I'm a cheapskate.

[swampy]

Oh, yes... the original question...

For me I guess it is a combination of DIY and eBay. 1 man's cast off is my gain :)
Does that make me a bottom feeder ?

[Joe]

I'm a spendthrift.

[webby]

Law of diminishing returns init?

What I've got is probably better than what 75% of people have got. You know, those who buy B&O systems and other mini hifi's. I could better it if I spent a few grand, but, I can't afford to.

[swampy]

but, I can't afford to.

I can't justify it. I start to add up the parts cost mentally when I see silly prices. When you start to pay the price of a new or nearly new car for say an amp then you need to take a reality check. A car takes a damn sight more energy, effort and material cost than some esoteric hi-fi item.

[webby]

I can't justify it. I start to add up the parts cost mentally when I see silly prices. When you start to pay the price of a new or nearly new car for say an amp then you need to take a reality check. A car takes a damn sight more energy, effort and material cost than some esoteric hi-fi item.

Yeah, what I meant to say was "I'm not prepared to".