Integrated amp recommendations

[yabadaba]

Hi, I recently picked up a nice condition Arcam FMJ A19 off eBay, which I bought based on what I imagined it might sound like from the reviews I read, but (having listened to it yesterday for a few hours), my initial impressions are that I don't think it has the sound signature that I'm after. Compared to my old NAD 3155, it sounds a little too plain/neutral, to the point that I kept edging up the volume, thinking the presentation might get a little more exciting....but the signature remains the same regardless of volume....which is probably a good sign, as long as that signature is to your liking.

I absolutely do not like bright or hard sounding equipment, but do like what I guess might be described as a rich and full sound with a strong/heavy bottom end, smooth mids and clear, though definitely not shrill/piercing highs. The NAD sort of has this signature but also a coarseness (lack of resolution) that I don't like and it also sounds a bit compressed. Don't get me wrong, the A19 is clearly very good and much more refined/controlled than the NAD, but in my setup it does sound a bit 'boring' and doesn't engage me enough.

I'm wondering whether a newer/better NAD or Rega or Marantz might suit better? As regards cost, I'm looking at an upper limit of circa £700 to £800, but would prefer to buy used so I can pick up something higher level and quite recent, but at around half the new cost. Hence me picking up the A19 for £325 instead of an SA10 at £700. Speakers are Spendor S9e's and main sources are a Rega Planar 3 (90's version) and Technics SL1200 mk5 for vinyl and streaming via a RP4 for my FLAC files and for Tidal/Spotify. Thanks.

[steve-z]

If you’re wanting a warm sound then the new Rega Brio would be the best bet and it’s in your budget.
The Audiolab 6000A would be another one to look at, a friend of mine has one and loves it.
I’d also recommend the amp I use, the Cambridge CXA60 but it’s probably a little to clean for your taste from what you’ve said.


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[Macca]

Can't see Arcam being a good march for Spendors, both are bit warm sounding. if you had Monitor Audio speakers - or similar - you'd probably find the Arcam perfect.

With £700 to spend I'd go second-hand and get the most bang for buck. You want to find something that used to be top of the line. I'd look at Sony, Technics or Harmon Kardon, none of them sound warm so should be better match for the speakers and get some of the interest factor back. Rega amps hold their value quite well second hand so tend to be overpriced for what they are.

[Macca]

How about an Accuphase or a Luxman?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACCUPHASE-E-205-Integrated-Amplifier/192821311698?hash=item2ce50bb8d2:g:OOgAAOSwLtBcYEv s

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUXMAN-L-510-INTEGRATED-TOP-QUALITY-VINTAGE-AMPLIFIER/333280624626?hash=item4d9912bff2:g:EMYAAOSwyTtdPtd A

although the Luxman is collection only from Glasgow.

That's the sort of thing I'd be looking at anyway.

[yabadaba]

If you’re wanting a warm sound then the new Rega Brio would be the best bet and it’s in your budget.
The Audiolab 6000A would be another one to look at, a friend of mine has one and loves it.
I’d also recommend the amp I use, the Cambridge CXA60 but it’s probably a little to clean for your taste from what you’ve said.


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Thanks Steve, I was already thinking the Brio, (or even an Elex-R if I could find used for the right price), might be more to my liking, but had never really come across the Audiolab before...used to hear of them a lot back in the 80's. I'll look into the 6000A.

[yabadaba]

How about an Accuphase or a Luxman?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACCUPHASE-E-205-Integrated-Amplifier/192821311698?hash=item2ce50bb8d2:g:OOgAAOSwLtBcYEv s

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUXMAN-L-510-INTEGRATED-TOP-QUALITY-VINTAGE-AMPLIFIER/333280624626?hash=item4d9912bff2:g:EMYAAOSwyTtdPtd A

although the Luxman is collection only from Glasgow.

That's the sort of thing I'd be looking at anyway.

Interesting Macca, thanks. Will research these. The good thing is, I don't think I'll have any trouble getting my money back on the Arcam, as it's in great condition and I'm sure will suit plenty of people out there.

Update - Wow that Luxman looks like a work of art to me....wonder how they sound. It would be taking me down a different (more vintage) path, but very tempting.

[Macca]

£700 buys you a lot of second-hand amplification these days, you should be able to get something really top notch with a bit of searching and patience. Personally I don't think that is Rega or Audiolab, but that's your decision.

[ianlenco]

Have a look for a Rogue Audio Sphinx - valve pre, solid state power, mm phono stage, tons of power and real grip on the speakers.

[struth]

had an arcam(modern) and it wasnt warm.anything but.

[steve-z]

If you can find one the AVI Lab Series Integrated is a fabulous amp.


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[Macca]

Yes it is. But rare.

[yabadaba]

had an arcam(modern) and it wasnt warm.anything but.

Not sure exactly what words to describe how the A19 sounds to me...maybe neutral, clean? It's certainly not 'rich', or at least not in how I consider rich, which I guess is what I gravitate towards, even though it's likely not the most accurate sound. I tend to lump warm and rich broadly together so guess my experience is the same as yours. An example of how the Arcam doesn't sound right in my system is how there is no metallic edge to the sound of cymbals, instead a very polite rendering of them, but not what I think they are supposed to sound like...or at least much more recessed than on my NAD, or via my HD650 headphones with Atom amp.

[Macca]

Soft rather than warm would be a better description? I know what you mean about the cymbals. Some amps go too far the other way though.

[struth]

i thought it hard in some ways, but not nasty. was a good amp but didnt hit my funny spot personally.

[yabadaba]

Soft rather than warm would be a better description? I know what you mean about the cymbals. Some amps go too far the other way though.

Yes, I think that's right...soft is a better description as regards the Arcam's top end (in my setup)....and agree can go too far....wouldn't like that...don't want piercing at all.

[yabadaba]

i thought it hard in some ways, but not nasty. was a good amp but didnt hit my funny spot personally.

Thanks and yes, can relate to this.

[hifinutt]

Been working my way through integrated amps over past few months , so much less hassle than pre power and less cables with the taus horns which are sensitive

You might sqeeze into a naim sn1 at the ops budget but i had a sn2 and it was very muscular , very holographic but a teeny weeny bit steely at times . must try the sn3 soon

https://live.staticflickr.com/878/41055611281_cd68eefbe2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25xWJSV)P1060091 (https://flic.kr/p/25xWJSV) by [/url], on Flickr

Then a lovely sugden a21se , exceptional amp this one and would have one back with tannoys . very powerful , very fast , tremendous grunt and you could hear a pin drop . the attack was superb .

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46991936374_f54ef22379_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060525 (https://flic.kr/p/2eAvXvy) by , on Flickr

Then recently a lovely lavardin IS reference which the owner is selling for around 1200 pounds , very warm amp, like a valve amp , no fatigue at all . no remote which is a pain but very well accomplished amp and higly recommended

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48689374046_370db62679_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060755 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbvLAj) by , on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48689036193_797bd0c563_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060753 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbu3ag) by , on Flickr

The arcam a75 I have been using for past few months has surprised me , its somewhere betwwen the lavardin and the sugden . Obviously not the build quality on the first 3 but the remote is good. It matches the Taus like a glove , not easy to find a decent one now as i am always looking out for one as a spare . It has pep and warmth and great soundstage

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48692516528_7ddfa1bbfb_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060760 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbMSK3) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

funnily enough its streets ahead of the a85 i have too , which i found sterile and boring with the taus . The a85 is supposed to be a more expensive version of the a75 ! just shows you

[walpurgis]

Creek Destiny 2. Superb sounding amplifier.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Creek-Destiny-2-Amplifier/202767681064?hash=item2f35e54628:g:9uEAAOSwVXZdE-DF

[hifinutt]

wonder if this would suit the spendors ? decent price maybe ??

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/denon-pma1600ne-integrated-amplifier-%C2%A3600.231386/#post-3756253

[yabadaba]

Been working my way through integrated amps over past few months , so much less hassle than pre power and less cables with the taus horns which are sensitive

You might sqeeze into a naim sn1 at the ops budget but i had a sn2 and it was very muscular , very holographic but a teeny weeny bit steely at times . must try the sn3 soon

https://live.staticflickr.com/878/41055611281_cd68eefbe2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25xWJSV)P1060091 (https://flic.kr/p/25xWJSV) by [/url], on Flickr

Then a lovely sugden a21se , exceptional amp this one and would have one back with tannoys . very powerful , very fast , tremendous grunt and you could hear a pin drop . the attack was superb .

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46991936374_f54ef22379_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060525 (https://flic.kr/p/2eAvXvy) by , on Flickr

Then recently a lovely lavardin IS reference which the owner is selling for around 1200 pounds , very warm amp, like a valve amp , no fatigue at all . no remote which is a pain but very well accomplished amp and higly recommended

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48689374046_370db62679_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060755 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbvLAj) by , on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48689036193_797bd0c563_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060753 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbu3ag) by , on Flickr

The arcam a75 I have been using for past few months has surprised me , its somewhere betwwen the lavardin and the sugden . Obviously not the build quality on the first 3 but the remote is good. It matches the Taus like a glove , not easy to find a decent one now as i am always looking out for one as a spare . It has pep and warmth and great soundstage

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48692516528_7ddfa1bbfb_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1060760 (https://flic.kr/p/2hbMSK3) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

funnily enough its streets ahead of the a85 i have too , which i found sterile and boring with the taus . The a85 is supposed to be a more expensive version of the a75 ! just shows you

Oh don't....I had an A21SE a few years ago (with the same speakers) and was really lovely....and I think the kind of sound I'm after again. I say 'think' because I've had a few different amps since then so difficult to recall the exact signature but I know I loved it and only sold it to try something different. it's one I regret selling. When you say your A75 is somewhere between the Sugden and Lavardin, how would you describe the differences between those two? the Lavardin may be of interest. The A19 doesn't remind me at all of the A21SE, so suspect maybe the sound signature with these newer Arcam's might have changed a little.

[graham67]

Sugden A21a from early 2000s. There is a post today on Wam about the Sugden and Spendor.combo.

[hifinutt]

"When you say your A75 is somewhere between the Sugden and Lavardin, how would you describe the differences between those two? the Lavardin may be of interest. The A19 doesn't remind me at all of the A21SE, so suspect maybe the sound signature with these newer Arcam's might have changed a little."

I heard an arcam a38 combo [ integrated and power amp ] into some proacs and it was very good indeed . The thing is my horns are far more sensitive than your spendor s9 so the only way to know is to try one . as i said the a21se was very fast , very grunty , very dynamic and gripping . If i sell my pre power set up i use with my tannoy eaton its high on the list to get another a21se as it was good

The lavardin is warm and valve like , but still sweet but whether it would match the s9 i am not so sure , depends on your ears !!

[yabadaba]

"When you say your A75 is somewhere between the Sugden and Lavardin, how would you describe the differences between those two? the Lavardin may be of interest. The A19 doesn't remind me at all of the A21SE, so suspect maybe the sound signature with these newer Arcam's might have changed a little."

I heard an arcam a38 combo [ integrated and power amp ] into some proacs and it was very good indeed . The thing is my horns are far more sensitive than your spendor s9 so the only way to know is to try one . as i said the a21se was very fast , very grunty , very dynamic and gripping . If i sell my pre power set up i use with my tannoy eaton its high on the list to get another a21se as it was good

The lavardin is warm and valve like , but still sweet but whether it would match the s9 i am not so sure , depends on your ears !!

Thanks, maybe I'll save a little and buy another A21SE......don't seem to depreciate much from the new cost though

[Lawrence001]

Where in London are you? You could always pop round and hear my current pre/power set up. Set me back about £300 and it's pretty good.

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[Idlewithnodrive]

I have owned literally dozens of integrateds, old and new, in the £500 - £1000 price range and the only one I would unreservedly recommend is the Denon PMA-850.

A real gem, very even handed, just gets out of the way and has all the bells and whistles.

Finding one, however ......

[yabadaba]

Where in London are you? You could always pop round and hear my current pre/power set up. Set me back about £300 and it's pretty good.

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Sydenham, SE26.......where are you?

[meBob]

Hello Yabadaba,

As I sit here writing this to you I am listening to a Sony 770ES integrated, through a pair of KEF Reference speakers and it is a very nice listen with bags of grunt and it does finesse also, not edgy or bright. It was Sony's flagship best effort at the time and is a 21kg battleship.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-TA-F770ES-STEREO-AMPLIFIER/133149419998?hash=item1f0052e9de:g:HwYAAOSw8Nlcp4N y

[meBob]

Idlewithnodrive,

PMA 850, rare indeed maybe 2 or 3 European ones on ebay each year.

Having said that, I've listened to the PMA 850 and my SONY 770ES side by side, the PMA 850 was better, but not by too much.

[jandl100]

A Marantz HD-AMP1 integrated has, I suspect, ended my amp box swapping.
You can get them exdem or used for £400-450.

[hifinutt]

i rang a dealer to get a marantz dac yesterday but they had none in stock . they make some great stuff . Got the lavardin playing with the tannoys for a few days . very musical and engaging sound . will continue the evaluation but its pretty good. not quite as pulse shaking as the sugden but enjoyable none the less

[steve-z]

A Marantz HD-AMP1 integrated has, I suspect, ended my amp box swapping.
You can get them exdem or used for £400-450.

I’m a bit surprised at you going for one of these Jerry knowing you’ve tried a very considerable number of amplifiers and DACs. I’ve just read through the write up on Audioscience Review and to say the least the results were far from sparkling.


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[jandl100]

I’m a bit surprised at you going for one of these Jerry knowing you’ve tried a very considerable number of amplifiers and DACs. I’ve just read through the write up on Audioscience Review and to say the least the results were far from sparkling.


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Yes, that techie review was dire, wasn't it!
Bear in mind that I don't use the DAC section, I think a lot of their criticism was aimed at that?

The 2 subjective reviews I saw were rather ecstatic, though.

Guess what? - I listen to gear but don't measure it. ;)

I continue to think it's the best amp I have ever heard, and not by a small margin.
End Game - ridiculous, but there it is.

[steve-z]

Yes, that techie review was dire, wasn't it!
Bear in mind that I don't use the DAC section, I think a lot of their criticism was aimed at that?

The 2 subjective reviews I saw were rather ecstatic, though.

Guess what? - I listen to gear but don't measure it. ;)

I continue to think it's the best amp I have ever heard, and not by a small margin.
End Game - ridiculous, but there it is.

I agree, your ears are always the final arbiter, thing is electronics that measures well tends to sound better, the only fly in the ointment tends to be valve gear which often measures badly but sounds sublime.


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[Macca]

Jerry, of all the amps you've had previously, which of them is most similar to this Marantz?

[jandl100]

Jerry, of all the amps you've had previously, which of them is most similar to this Marantz?

Interesting question.
Probably the Amptastic Mini-1.
That'll put 90% of you off. :D

The Marantz is very much that but writ-large and even better.
Similar you-are-there-ness immediacy and transparency, similar rich tonality, similar transient speed, similar soundstage/imaging 3D solidity.
All excellent aspects of the Mini-1.
Except all aspects are more so with the Marantz. And the Marantz has 35wpc, doubling into 4 ohms according to the spec, against the 8wpc of the Mini-1.
The Marantz is the Mini-1 all growed up.
... ish.

To my ears, it makes almost all other amps sound flat and boring.

[Pigmy Pony]

Interesting question.
Probably the Amptastic Mini-1.
That'll put 90% of you off. :D

The Marantz is very much that but writ-large and even better.
Similar you-are-there-ness immediacy and transparency, similar rich tonality, similar transient speed, similar soundstage/imaging 3D solidity.
All excellent aspects of the Mini-1.
Except all aspects are more so with the Marantz. And the Marantz has 35wpc, doubling into 4 ohms according to the spec, against the 8wpc of the Mini-1.
The Marantz is the Mini-1 all growed up.
... ish.

To my ears, it makes almost all other amps sound flat and boring.

Well I'm one of the 10% not put off. Bought one after borrowing your Mini-T a couple of years ago and it does sterling work in my second system (although it will happily drive the main system too). My only criticism would be that it could do with a bit more power. If the Marantz is like this but with added welly, it's got to be something good :)

[steve-z]

Yes, that techie review was dire, wasn't it!
Bear in mind that I don't use the DAC section, I think a lot of their criticism was aimed at that?

The 2 subjective reviews I saw were rather ecstatic, though.

Guess what? - I listen to gear but don't measure it. ;)

I continue to think it's the best amp I have ever heard, and not by a small margin.
End Game - ridiculous, but there it is.

Andrew Everard certainly seemed to like it.


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[Conan]

How about a JVC AX 1010? Brilliant Amp + dac in one box.
I have one in mint c9ndition that I'm thinking of selling

[yabadaba]

Just to update this thread, I saw a FMJ A39 for sale recently at what I considered a good price but initially ignored it, thinking it would sound similar to the A19....so more of the same that I was already dissatisfied with. But then I came across a forum thread where someone described the differences between the A19 and A39, which were along the lines of the changes I was looking for. Given that the price was good, the seller was just a few miles from me and I thought the extra power might also drive my speakers better, I pulled the trigger and collected it a few hours ago.

After I short listen just now I am, so far, very happy with what I am hearing. The same clear mids and general full-bodied character that the A19 does well, but...importantly...with a noticeably crisper (more extended) top end, though without going anywhere near bright. The bass also seems better defined too and perhaps a little more of it....not that the A19 was bad in that respect at all. Both have more bass slam that my other (cheaper) amps.

I'm still going to demo some amps over the next few weeks and if I find anything I like a lot more and decide to switch again, then one or both of my Arcam FMJ's should be easy to sell on. otherwise, the A39 might be a keeper.

[hifinutt]

Brilliant , I have yet to try the a39 but if I saw a decent one nearby I would too.

[hayche]

I recommend the leema elements integrated. It even has a built in dac I preferred to a mdac.
It is totally neutral for my focal speakers. I have had quite a few in that price range including the a19, new and old brio, nait 5i, croft integrated. The leema is a keeper for me.

[yabadaba]

Another update.....I'd booked a demo at my local hi-fi dealer before getting the FMJ A39 and decided I still wanted to hear what they had to offer, despite thinking I was satisfied with the A39. So, I spent 2-3 hrs today comparing my A39 to firstly a Rega Elex-R, then an Elicit-R, a Naim Nait XS2 and finally a Linn Majik DMS.

First surprise for me was how good the Elex-R sounded. I expected it to sound brighter and more forward than the A39, but not at all, if anything the general presentation was smoother and what I particularly liked was that the lower mids/upper bass were slightly less prominent in the mix, but with the deep bass coming through more....a smoother transition through the frequencies I guess. It felt more natural and musical to me.....still a full and weighty sound (which I absolutely want), just with a more even spread. What hearing the Elex-R also did was highlight to me some hardness in the A39's presentation, with female vocals sounding better.

The chap then played me the same track (at same volume level) through an Elicit-R, which I expected to sound even better, but I didn't find this to be the case. A bolder presentation I thought but it lost some of that balance and fluidity that the Elex-R had. Not a huge amount in it and better than my A39, but didn't sound to me as 'musical' as the Elex-R. Interestingly the person doing the demo didn't let me know his thoughts until I had expressed mine and he actually said how he agreed with me, rather than trying to convince me that the more expensive amp must sound better.

The Nait XS2 was next and this actually sounded closer to the Elex-R than the Elicit-R did. In fact, I found it difficult to say which I preferred....both sounded really nice...but given it costs c.£600 more than the Elex-R it wasn't worth me exploring the differences further.

Finally, I listened to the Linn Majik DMS, initially through the same network streaming setup as for the other amps and then via it's own built in interface....the latter sounding better and allowing the Linn software to 'fine tune' the frequency response to better match the speakers (Spendor D7's i think). The Linn sounded great, it seemed to do everything to my liking and vocals sounded really great through it....smooth, exceptionally clear, but with no hard edges. But, it's quite a bit over my budget....so the Elex-R takes pole position for now. I will probably go back for another demo though and maybe ask if I can audition it at home, in my system. Would be interested to hear feedback on how others have found the Elex-R.

[hifinutt]

Thanks for update, may of course sound completely different in your own room and speakers , keep us posted

[hornucopia]

My Peachtree iDecco sounds pretty good-(i run headphones from the speaker outlet) Built-in dac plus iPod dock.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/idecco/idecco.html

[hifinutt]

Think elex r will go on the list to try with the tannoys. Using a lavardin is ref at the moment. It's not detailed or as grunty as the a21se. However it has a delightful liquid sound that rather makes you want to keep on listening. Spent quite a bit of time with it and the owner isn't getting it back soon!

[walpurgis]

The Creek Destiny 2 sounds extremely good with Tannoys.

[hornucopia]

Sometimes its hard to define why something sounds good. I can recall swapping around 3 Pre-amps.
Doing a 'on the spot' comparison, I couldn't hear much difference.
But I found I left one running for weeks longer than the other two.
A bit like your 'liquid sound' comment?

[hifinutt]

Yes I can't describe stuff as well as many folks .my main decider is if it keeps me up in the evening and I don't want to turn it off. Will keep the creek in mind

[yabadaba]

Yes, I find it difficult to describe this kind of thing too....okay no problem with terms like bright or dull, but I've now found myself saying stuff like musical and organic! I think I know what people mean when they use the descriptor 'liquid' though.

I've been thinking today more about the sound differences between the amps I auditioned and I wonder if, to some degree, the more powerful amps...so my FMJ A39 and the Elicit-R.... are making the music feel a little disjointed (here we go again...I mean there are frequencies that seem out of balance with the rest) because they are more powerful and therefore are controlling the woofers more, so the bass notes stop and start quicker and therefore the impact is harder hitting and more defined? So, possibly more accurate and making these frequencies more distinct from the rest of the music, but in a way I'm just not accustomed to. The amps with a little less power were maybe just not controlling the bass as well and hence it blended in more. The thing is I really enjoy music being reproduced with strong powerful bass so maybe need to re-evaluate the differences between the Elex-R and Elicit-R again....possibly the Elicit-R was just doing bass better. Both Rega amps were better than my A39 in more areas than their bottom ends though.....nicer sounding top end and less hardness / smoother vocals.

Okay sorry, that was a bit of a ramble!

@hifinut - yes, fully realise any of these amps will sound different in my system, in my room, so may see if they can loan me the Elex-R and/or Elicit-R over a weekend.

[hornucopia]

...but, 'strong and powerful bass' may not be how it's recorded? It has to be 'of a piece'.
To some extent the amp and speakers have to match In my case, the high sensitivity (and lack of cross-over) of the speaker mean that a low watt amp suffices. It's not called 'First watt' for nothing.

[Mikeandvan]

Enjoying this thread, thinking of changing over to an integrated myself, I really do not see the point of 2, 3, or if Naim 23 boxes! What source/s do you use David?

[hifinutt]

quite , it simplifies things
these are some thoughts on the lavardin in situ at the moment . not as detailed as the a21se but enjoyable

Due the kindness of a friend i have had a lavardin Is ref here to play with . We don`t hear a huge amount about this french brand . They are supposed to be `valve like` whatever your interpretation of that is and apparently have this memory distortion effect which according to the web site is this :

Memory distortion is a new concept in distortion process analysis. Usual concepts of distortion are based on a very simple distortion model which does not tally with the real behaviour of electronic circuits. In the classic theoretical model of distortion, distortion of a non selective circuit results from its band limitations for linear distortion and from its non-linear transfer function for non-linear distortion. This model is a good approximation for audio circuits. But for highest quality audio it is too simplistic. It results from a tonal approach to circuits for design and measurement.

The tonal approach is very important and can be done accurately, but it ignores time; and musical flow is a key issue. That means that the classic approach to distortion measurements are valid only for time independent systems. However, the main difference between noise and music IS organisation in time.

Its a very light amp compared to some weighing around 6kg ish , pretty cool running and very silent in mode. it does make a slight pop in the tannoys [eaton legacy] on turning on and off . it has no remote as its an older model.

Initially used with a very modest rotel 965bx as a transport into a teac dac and then used a marantz sa8005 sacd player . cabling is chord epic biwired .

Not too long ago a sugden a21se was in its place and that was an exceptional amp which has been described elsewhere . The first time i used this with some impulse horns i can`t say it set me on fire with enthusiasm , preferring them with other amps .

However the Tannoys are a different beast and using with the Rotel it was very musical and toe tapping . very fluid and engaging . Playing new dawn on the naim label
https://www.discogs.com/Dominic-Miller-Neil-Stacey-New-Dawn/release/4735254

and Ian Boddy chiasmata which is ambient electronica

https://din.org.uk/track/chiasmata-2

it actually makes you really want to turn it up and keep on listening . Changing to the marantz and playing vincent belanger LA album the texture of the cello is very apparent .
https://audionote.shop/audio-note-music/vinyl-record-vincent-belanger-la

There is more detail and focus with the marantz . quite an immersive listen and instruments are very natural indeed . it is not forensically detailed like some systems i have had but it has a delicacy and finesse that is quite compelling

whether all you naim fans would like it i am not sure because it may not have quite the same slam and dynamic sound but it certainly plays music very well. I have been told it sounds similar to an audionote OTTO but i have never compared myself . Anyway its lovely to find an amp that you want to turn up and not want to turn down as it grates on your ears

[yabadaba]

Enjoying this thread, thinking of changing over to an integrated myself, I really do not see the point of 2, 3, or if Naim 23 boxes! What source/s do you use David?

For practical reasons I've been conducting my recent amp comparisons using only streamed music - mainly from Tidal, all via a Raspberry Pi 4 (running Volumio) and through a Topping D10 DAC. I have other DACs and CD players but find this relatively inexpensive setup sounds surprisingly good. I normally listen to a lot of vinyl (Rega Planar 3 / Nagaoka MP110 / Schiit Mani pre-amp and Technics SL1200 MK5 / Denon DL103 / Sugden A21SE Stage Two pre-amp), but haven't bothered for these recent listening sessions. Speakers are Spendor S9e's.

So, I just picked up a used Elex-R and have tried it for a few hours this evening, but am not as happy with it as I was when I heard it at at my local dealer, where I found it sounded better than my FMJ A39 and even an Elicit-R. I do need to spend some more time with the Elex-R, but for some reason I'm currently finding it sounds a little less full-bodied than I remember. It somehow manages to sound smooth and perhaps slightly recessed throughout the midrange (though I've never heard anyone else describe it as such) and extending into the (lower) higher frequencies, yet this is topped off with quite a bright sting to the highest frequencies, which I'm finding too much with some recordings but others sound fine. The A39 presents as more powerful in the mids and upper bass with a slightly more tamed top end (though not soft like my A19). In the demo at my dealers, my A39 sounded a tad too heavy in the bass and mids and also I thought I was hearing some hardness, whereas the Elex-R was just right....but so far I am finding my A39 to be the better sounding (to my personal taste) in my own home.

But, as I said.....need to spend more time with the Elex-R....might need to get more accustomed to it and maybe the limited selection of music I've tried has so far has not played to it's strengths. Will report back after more listening and comparisons.

@hifinutt - really wish I still had my A21SE.....I remember it fondly and would be interesting to compare to these amps I have now. The Lavardin sounds very interesting.

[Mikeandvan]

Isn't the Sugden A21 rather limited in what speakers it can drive being only 25w?

[Mikeandvan]

For practical reasons I've been conducting my recent amp comparisons using only streamed music - mainly from Tidal, all via a Raspberry Pi 4 (running Volumio) and through a Topping D10 DAC. I have other DACs and CD players but find this relatively inexpensive setup sounds surprisingly good. I normally listen to a lot of vinyl (Rega Planar 3 / Nagaoka MP110 / Schiit Mani pre-amp and Technics SL1200 MK5 / Denon DL103 / Sugden A21SE Stage Two pre-amp), but haven't bothered for these recent listening sessions. Speakers are Spendor S9e's.

So, I just picked up a used Elex-R and have tried it for a few hours this evening, but am not as happy with it as I was when I heard it at at my local dealer, where I found it sounded better than my FMJ A39 and even an Elicit-R. I do need to spend some more time with the Elex-R, but for some reason I'm currently finding it sounds a little less full-bodied than I remember. It somehow manages to sound smooth and perhaps slightly recessed throughout the midrange (though I've never heard anyone else describe it as such) and extending into the (lower) higher frequencies, yet this is topped off with quite a bright sting to the highest frequencies, which I'm finding too much with some recordings but others sound fine. The A39 presents as more powerful in the mids and upper bass with a slightly more tamed top end (though not soft like my A19). In the demo at my dealers, my A39 sounded a tad too heavy in the bass and mids and also I thought I was hearing some hardness, whereas the Elex-R was just right....but so far I am finding my A39 to be the better sounding (to my personal taste) in my own home.

But, as I said.....need to spend more time with the Elex-R....might need to get more accustomed to it and maybe the limited selection of music I've tried has so far has not played to it's strengths. Will report back after more listening and comparisons.

@hifinutt - really wish I still had my A21SE.....I remember it fondly and would be interesting to compare to these amps I have now. The Lavardin sounds very interesting.

Try the Elex with some vinyl, I wouldn't dream of using streaming as a main source! I also use a Nag cart - the MP200, best damn £250 you'll ever spend!

[yabadaba]

Isn't the Sugden A21 rather limited in what speakers it can drive being only 25w? The A21SE is quoted at 30w (into 8 Ohms) I believe, but yes it's still relatively low powered. It did, however, seem to drive my S9e's well.

I've been thinking about upgrading to the MP200 cart for some time now....I'll pull the trigger on one in the not too distant future. Might also need to consider moving away from the Schiit Mani too, as I am beginning to suspect it is compressing the sound a little.

[Mikeandvan]

The A21SE is quoted at 30w (into 8 Ohms) I believe, but yes it's still relatively low powered. It did, however, seem to drive my S9e's well.

I've been thinking about upgrading to the MP200 cart for some time now....I'll pull the trigger on one in the not too distant future. Might also need to consider moving away from the Schiit Mani too, as I am beginning to suspect it is compressing the sound a little.
I buy my Nagaoka carts/styli from ebay sellers based in Japan, saves about £100, I've bought 3 and haven't been hit by customs yet. Replacement styli about £130 at the minute.

[hifinutt]

Isn't the Sugden A21 rather limited in what speakers it can drive being only 25w?

It drove my 89db 8ohm tannoys beautifully , very powerful . fabulous amp . Its top of the list to return to service when finances allow

[anthonyTD]

Don't be put off by power output alone, for eg, i use a little 3 watt single ended [ directly coupled] valve intergrated in my workshop that i built many years ago now, and its currently running some jordan full range drivers in sealed boxes, which are around 84 db, and it will drive them to a decent listening level, my point being, its not just about power output, its more how the amp intergrates with the speaker load, and its varying impedance with frequency.
Anyway, i guess what i am saying is; just try everything you can get your hands on, without prejudice, i think Jerry's methology is a very good example in that respect. :)
A...

[yabadaba]

I buy my Nagaoka carts/styli from ebay sellers based in Japan, saves about £100, I've bought 3 and haven't been hit by customs yet. Replacement styli about £130 at the minute.

Mike, any particular seller you'd recommend for the MP200? I've got a MP110 on my Rega 3 now, but fancy upgrading. Or, could even try it on my SL1200. Either way, I want one!

NB: Elex-R better in general with a vinyl source, though I do still prefer the FMJ A39. I don't think it's my perfect amp, but best I have at the moment. Will stick with it for a while and put some money into better cartridge (MP200) and possibly improving my DAC.

[Slawts]

I don't know why anybody hasn't mentioned Musical Fidelity. They make great integrateds and are plentiful. They have a house sound that seems to be approximating what you have described and are easy to sell on.

[Pigmy Pony]

I don't know why anybody hasn't mentioned Musical Fidelity. They make great integrateds and are plentiful. They have a house sound that seems to be approximating what you have described and are easy to sell on.

Well I'll mention Musical Fidelity. I think they've made some corkers over the years, and my brother's A3.2 integrated has done worked faultlessly for over 15 years now. Built like a tank and plenty of welly.

I think Musical Fidelity lost a few friends with their pricing policy, where they would initially charge full whack for their product, only to discount it heavily after just a few months. Which would be pretty annoying for early buyers. My brother bought his after they had been in production for maybe a year, the initial price was £1000, but he got it with the matching CD player for £1200.

No idea what it's like with their newer stuff though.

[oldius]

I have owned literally dozens of integrateds, old and new, in the £500 - £1000 price range and the only one I would unreservedly recommend is the Denon PMA-850.

A real gem, very even handed, just gets out of the way and has all the bells and whistles.

Finding one, however ......I agree, obviously. 3 input, self adjusting phono stage, even handed and controls everything with aplomb. £700 in 1977 and has stayed in my system for years, surprising many a multi-thousand pound amplifier bake off visitor!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Mike, any particular seller you'd recommend for the MP200? I've got a MP110 on my Rega 3 now, but fancy upgrading. Or, could even try it on my SL1200. Either way, I want one!

NB: Elex-R better in general with a vinyl source, though I do still prefer the FMJ A39. I don't think it's my perfect amp, but best I have at the moment. Will stick with it for a while and put some money into better cartridge (MP200) and possibly improving my DAC.

I've bought from a few sellers based in Japan on Ebay, they've all been fine, I just do an Ebay search for the mp200 and choose the cheapest. Last one was this guy

https://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=ftfym65&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=372694242484&sspagename=VIP%3Afeedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

I also buy replacement styli from there, only a £130 for MP200 replacement, change it yearly.

[Miller]

The Marantz 1060 Japanese made integrated which can also be used as a pre/power amp with a killer phonostage as well.... People are really catching onto them now so getting more scarce and costly with a deserved reputation for sound.

Also, my loft listening room gets a little warm in the height of the summer months for class A/valve amplification and the 1060 is a joy to bring out.

My 10 cents worth and good luck.