Can a CD player's sound degrade?

[Pigmy Pony]

Last month I bought a Marantz CD6006 (UK) to stand in for my ailing Densen player. I got it as an "open box" item from Richers, with a full guarantee and two tiny scratches on top which I fixed with a black marker pen. for £260.

I wasn't expecting too much from this player, even though it had some great reviews. After all It's a £300 player replacing one with a new cost of about 1300 quid iirc. But I'm actually loving it, making me revisit my favourite discs, and one or two which were previously a 'difficult' listen. All the detail seems to still be there, but with a smoothness and balance that is really drawing me in. Why would this be?

Possibilities:

1. The lowered expectations and relatively low outlay is helping me 'relax into the music' rather than listening to the player.

2. The Marantz is simply a really good player, and compares favourably with the ageing Densen.

3. The Marantz has a better synergy with the rest of my stuff, and price be damned.

4. The Densen's sound quality has worsened over time and it's taken swapping in another player to show this up.

The first three possibilities I can readily believe, I'm just curious about number four. And whether it would be worth throwing money at getting the Densen fixed. Any views guys?

[Macca]

Could be that components have gone out of spec with age, that might affect sound quality. It's not likely to be the case though. Although you said it was ailing so that implies some sort of fault.

[Sherwood]

Last month I bought a Marantz CD6006 (UK) to stand in for my ailing Densen player. I got it as an "open box" item from Richers, with a full guarantee and two tiny scratches on top which I fixed with a black marker pen. for £260.

I wasn't expecting too much from this player, even though it had some great reviews. After all It's a £300 player replacing one with a new cost of about 1300 quid iirc. But I'm actually loving it, making me revisit my favourite discs, and one or two which were previously a 'difficult' listen. All the detail seems to still be there, but with a smoothness and balance that is really drawing me in. Why would this be?

Possibilities:

1. The lowered expectations and relatively low outlay is helping me 'relax into the music' rather than listening to the player.

2. The Marantz is simply a really good player, and compares favourably with the ageing Densen.

3. The Marantz has a better synergy with the rest of my stuff, and price be damned.

4. The Densen's sound quality has worsened over time and it's taken swapping in another player to show this up.

The first three possibilities I can readily believe, I'm just curious about number four. And whether it would be worth throwing money at getting the Densen fixed. Any views guys?

That's an expensive marker pen!

[skimminstones]

Personally have always found marantz cd players very good sounding, irrespective of price. It may just be sounding different as well.

[Pigmy Pony]

Could be that components have gone out of spec with age, that might affect sound quality. It's not likely to be the case though. Although you said it was ailing so that implies some sort of fault.

It had been acting up for months, refusing to start, and when it did it would skip or sometimes stop, then start again after a minute or so. Its reluctance to play a disc from beginning to end was doing my head in, and this may have had some effect on perceived sound. Like enjoying a relaxing drive in tre country in a car that may and will break down at any moment.

[Pigmy Pony]

That's an expensive marker pen!

:lol: Bugger! Still, it did come with a free CD player :)

[Macca]

It had been acting up for months, refusing to start, and when it did it would skip or sometimes stop, then start again after a minute or so. Its reluctance to play a disc from beginning to end was doing my head in, and this may have had some effect on perceived sound. Like enjoying a relaxing drive in tre country in a car that may and will break down at any moment.

Will probably be fixable. But as Keith says the more modern Marantz is going to be pretty good.

[Pigmy Pony]

Personally have always found marantz cd players very good sounding, irrespective of price. It may just be sounding different as well.

That's a very good point I'll need a bit more playing time to decide whether it's just a honeymoon period. But right now I'm loving the sound, the operation, and its appearance. And it satisfies Mrs. P's "if it ain't black it's cack" stipulation :)

[Pigmy Pony]

Will probably be fixable. But as Keith says the more modern Marantz is going to be pretty good.

I will try to get it fixed at some point, but the only likely repairer is Elite Audio, all the way up there. And when they failed to reply to my email I just sort of gave up.

[Firebottle]

You seem to be implying the Denson is quite old, if that"s the case then it's probably just that modern design Dac's are better than older chips/designs.

[struth]

sounds a bit like the carraige is dry.. maybe clean and regrease it.

[Macca]

Quite possible that the Marantz is just 'better'. There's a disturbing amount of bollox on the Densen website:

The four Densen CD-players are critically acclaimed musical performers with a large group of devoted followers. They all share the Densen characteristics of extreme musicality, military precision in mounting and soldering, easy upgradeability, and good looks. (all means nothing)

The players are based on extruded aluminium casings that minimize vibration and magnetic distortion (bollox), on non-feedback Class A amplification stages, discrete analogue stages, on advanced and jitter-free clock circuitry (bollox), and custom-made CD transports with is optimized for perfect data transfer. (bollox)

Most of them can be updated to the model above by your dealer or distributor. Further they can all be updated with external powersupplies like the DNRG and 2NRG resulting in a strong update path, and even stronger performance. (why not put better supplies in to begin with? - bollox).



The top model B-475 uses Densen Super Leggera technology, using a super lightweight cabinet, to minimize influences on the circuits, and allow the player to "breathe" freely! (utter bollox)


It's just a completely standard CD player in an expensive looking case with some marketing bollox to justify the premium price.

[Macca]

Not convinced?

Super Leggara:

The Densen B-275 is the first Superleggera product from Densen. The term superleggera will not be unfamiliar to conneceurs of advanced sportscars, as this Italian term, meaning super light weight, has been used to describe the chassis of some of the best and most famous sportscars ever made.
The industry standard has been to build bigger and bigger products, with larger and larger circuits and powersupplies, resulting in cabinets both holding delicate audioelectronic and massive powersupplies. Densen has with the Superleggera products divided these into 2, allowing the audiocircuit to be totally separated from the powersupplies mechanically, resulting in a dramatic removal of the powersupply vibrations which will smear the signals of a normal amplifier. In the B-275 the huge powersupply has its own cabinet, while the delicate audiocircuit is in the Superleggera cabinet, where everything possible has been done to reduce the weight and remove vibrations. This has made a dramatic improvement of the sound, and where huge high end products normally is associated with dark and slow presentation of music, the words that springs to mind when describing the B-275 Superleggera is words like agile, precise, fast, dynamic and natural.
The B-275 simply let the music breath more freely, due to the removal of unnessesary weight. This is in line with Densens effort in previous models, where the attention has always been to make a light cabinet, but here it is obviously taken to extremes with the 2 cabinet solution.

lol, do what now?

[Lawrence001]

Actually some of it reminded me of Musical Fidelity's claims (eg. military grade aluminium/valves) and they sound pretty good. Also some of the old dacs sound better than most of the ones. So yes it could just be a bit average but it could also be a system mismatch or aged components. (If replacing caps in an old amp makes it sound better I don't see why it can't also hold for CD players, at least in the output stage).

Edit: just saw Martin's second post and it is definitely verging on complete BS. I wonder if Densen poached MF's head of marketing [emoji38]

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[simon g]

To be honest, I never thought Densen players were that great to start with. What you're up against here is that the likes of Marantz have huge economies of scale, significant R&D resource and manufacturing skills that Densen can't even dream of matching. It's often the case that the large, established brands, operating globally, have excellent, fine sounding products at sensible pricing levels. Densen is a tiny company operating with just a very few people.

The trouble is that forums and the like tend to focus on the small, boutique or niche type brands. It's very easy to get caught up in the 'oh, it's a mass market product; it just can't be as good as my 'audiophile' one'.

[Macca]

Actually some of it reminded me of Musical Fidelity's claims (eg. military grade aluminium/valves) and they sound pretty good. Also some of the old dacs sound better than most of the ones. So yes it could just be a bit average but it could also be a system mismatch or aged components. (If replacing caps in an old amp makes it sound better I don't see why it can't also hold for CD players, at least in the output stage).

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You're right but in my experience if components in a cd player start going out of spec or failing this is reflected in the player not reading discs, cutting out, not playing the whole disc and so forth, not in slightly degraded sound quality. I own lots of faulty CD players!

This is just a case of an expensive CD player being bettered by one that cost a fraction of the price and that's something I have come across a number of times.

[Lawrence001]

I remember the Densen Beat amplifier getting good reviews but not read anything about their CDPs.

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[Macca]

To be honest, I never thought Densen players were that great to start with. What you're up against here is that the likes of Marantz have huge economies of scale, significant R&D resource and manufacturing skills that Densen can't even dream of matching. It's often the case that the large, established brands, operating globally, have excellent, fine sounding products at sensible pricing levels. Densen is a tiny company operating with just a very few people.

The trouble is that forums and the like tend to focus on the small, boutique or niche type brands. It's very easy to get caught up in the 'oh, it's a mass market product; it just can't be as good as my 'audiophile' one'.

Spit on. Added to which like any non-Jap manufacturer with the exception of Philips they buy in all the parts from OEM anyway. They aren't making their own DACS and transports. Maybe they build their own analogue output stage. Maybe.

[struth]

People like what they like. Its as good as the listener thinks it is, and that goes for all equipment

[Pharos]

Is there no end to the descriptions intending to convey a concept, and then how they have worked at improving along the lines of that concept?

Who precisely do you want spat on Macca?

[Macca]

Who precisely do you want spat on Macca?

I don't understand the question.

[Joe]

I don't understand the question.

See post 18 for clarification.

[Barry]

I don't understand the question.

It was a rather trivial reference to your typo: "Spit" instead of 'Spot'. Easily done: "i" and "o" are adjacent letters on the keyboard.

[struth]

It was a rather trivial reference to your typo: "Spit" instead of 'Spot'. Easily done: "i" and "e" are adjacent letters on the keyboard.

i and o;)

[NRG]

It had been acting up for months, refusing to start, and when it did it would skip or sometimes stop, then start again after a minute or so. Its reluctance to play a disc from beginning to end was doing my head in, and this may have had some effect on perceived sound. Like enjoying a relaxing drive in tre country in a car that may and will break down at any moment.

Did you clean the laser lens? They can get grubby over the years even in a none smoking environment. The laser assembly can lose focus and power with age misreading disks as you describe. Some mechs can be readjusted, a good service centre will be able to advise I would think.

[Barry]

i and o;)

Yes of course - my turn for a typo! ;)

[Macca]

It was a rather trivial reference to your typo: "Spit" instead of 'Spot'. Easily done: "i" and "o" are adjacent letters on the keyboard.

Oh I see now. Good typo! I can't correct it now or all these posts will make no sense.

I spit on bollocks marketing drivel them. I know they are only doing their jobs but it puts me off products from the word go.

[Spectral Morn]

:doh:

2“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is bollox.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

[struth]

some biblical quotes there me thinks

[Spectral Morn]

some biblical quotes there me thinks

Nods, Ecclesiastes

Seemed appropriate as everything is apparently bollox ;)

[Edward]

Steve, if you have an external DAC try outputing digital from both CDPs and seeing what the relative differences are. This may point you to if the Densen's internal DAC is at fault. In any event the Denson's transport needs a service and likely to be an easy fix given that it reads most of the time anyway. Spit may be a good lubricant but I'd suggest you use something else. :)

[struth]

Nods, Ecclesiastes

Seemed appropriate as everything is apparently bollox ;)

sounded Hebrew :)

[Macca]

Nods, Ecclesiastes

Seemed appropriate as everything is apparently bollox ;)

Getting Old Testament on my ass then? Well allow me to retort:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

[Pharos]

I was having a little fun of course.

"I spit on bollocks marketing drivel them. I know they are only doing their jobs but it puts me off products from the word go. "

And so much of it is.

From the wooden surrounds in Covent Garden, circa, '75;

"The bells of the temple of Buddha ring out the emptiness of all human endeavour"

[struth]

if you cant see past it for what it is, then it serves you right. We have had marketing for ever. it sells some stuff to some folk that didnt want/need it, but mostly it gives you something to check out and see what it really is.
Sure we have all been caught by it at least once. Trick is to learn. same goes for "honest" reviews.. they aint always honest and even if they are it doenst mean you will agree

[Spectral Morn]

It is the case that Densen do buy in parts for their CD players, however it would be my belief that they don't just re case stuff and pass it on, so I would expect there to be work done on the PSUs, and output stages, and in other key areas.

They would be designed to look the same as other Densen products so the case will have the Densen look.

It is simply not true that older designs are always bettered by new ones or cheaper ones. However not hearing the two in the system they are being used I can offer no comment re sound quality differences or the superiority over one or the other. It could be that the Marantz offers a better tonal match with the system, but will its soundstaging, imagery, detail retrieval be as good as the Densen, when working right? I don't know.

Worth getting it fixed, if its not too expensive. You could contact Densen and ask them who they would suggest re fixing it. Do Densen have a UK distributor currently?

[Lawrence001]

Steve, if you have an external DAC try outputing digital from both CDPs and seeing what the relative differences are. This may point you to if the Densen's internal DAC is at fault. In any event the Denson's transport needs a service and likely to be an easy fix given that it reads most of the time anyway. Spit may be a good lubricant but I'd suggest you use something else. :)The voice of reason as ever. I'm not sure how this thread turned into biblical quote and counter quote??

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[Macca]

The voice of reason as ever. I'm not sure how this thread turned into biblical quote and counter quote??

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Just a bit of fun.

[Spectral Morn]

Just a bit of fun.

Indeed :)

[AD Audio]

It may be as simple as it needs a recap. Beyond the obvious dirty /maladjusted lasers, I've serviced a few old CD players where the caps have completely dried out leaving the industrial 78/79 series regulators getting even hotter and having a major impact on sound quality. The regs /caps are often squeezed into small spaces so the reg heat simply dries the caps. And as the caps fail the regs run even hotter, in a lovely vicious circle

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[lovejoy]

My suspicion is that the Marantz is simply a more enjoyable CD player than the Densen ever was. I owned a Densen B-410 for a while which was purchased off the back of very good reviews and a pretty short demonstration where I praised how 'non-digital' it sounded. While that were true, longer listening sessions established a pattern very quickly in that I never listened any further than around 1/3 of the way through a CD album. That's when it became apparent that the Densen just sounded boring and had no sense of timing or rhythm, so I was hitting eject after about track 4.
I sold the Densen and the next CD player I bought cost me £5 from a car boot sale and was a Marantz CD53 and upon listening to it, I found exactly the same as you're finding now. A very musically capable and engaging player. It lacked the refinement and tonality of the Densen, but I was listening to CDs all the way through again.

[Pigmy Pony]

Cheers, you guys have had a fair bit to say while I've been away, with some helpful suggestions (apart from the God-bothering :)) I am pretty inept technically (I did put the "Dense" in Densen) so it will be for someone else to fix.

Looking back, I see that I first had a mither about this last October, and Simon (SimonG) suggested contacting Elite Audio. I did this, got an automated out of hours message back saying they would contact me. That was ten months ago, so maybe they need a reminder...

I don't want to consider the possibility that it may just need the laser lens cleaning - If Mrs. Pony discovered that I'd spent 260 bones replacing something that just needed a wipe, I'd be in a whole world of pain :(

[Edward]

"mither"

Wow that is a new one on me. Next time swmbo has a moan at me (that will be in roughly 10 minutes time no doubt) I will simple say "Oh please stop mithering." That should stop her in her tracks (for a few minutes!).

:)

[Stratmangler]

"mither"

Wow that is a new one on me. Next time swmbo has a moan at me (that will be in roughly 10 minutes time no doubt) I will simple say "Oh please stop mithering." That should stop her in her tracks (for a few minutes!).

:)

It's a different world down in the smoke :D

[Edward]

It's a different world down in the smoke :DThe good lady is from wolves.

"Brought up bostin and proper ar am."

:)

§

[Firebottle]

Yow 'cor beat a Black Country wench.

[Bigman80]

The good lady is from wolves.

"Brought up bostin and proper ar am."

:)

§'Ar'm clammed, let's get sum fettle'

'see him, he's a nors'

Work that out black country mitherers.

[RMutt]

'Clammed' in Lancashire is hungry, so I'm going to guess at 'I'm hungry lets get some food' the other one seems to suggest someone is a horse.

[Bigman80]

'Clammed' in Lancashire is hungry, so I'm going to guess at 'I'm hungry lets get some food' the other one seems to suggest someone is a horse.Hahaha,.

Yep, I'm hungry, let's get some food.

NOPE, not a horse.

[AJSki2fly]

I don't want to consider the possibility that it may just need the laser lens cleaning - If Mrs. Pony discovered that I'd spent 260 bones replacing something that just needed a wipe, I'd be in a whole world of pain :(

I am sure with all those cables that you keep selling you must have nice little hifi piggy bank tucked away by now to think about a replacement CDP.:lol::eyebrows::D

Apologies Steve I take this back, I was definitely having a senior moment and muddle you up with Mr Mad-Moon:doh:, now he does sell cables. ;)

[Pigmy Pony]

'Clammed' in Lancashire is hungry, so I'm going to guess at 'I'm hungry lets get some food' the other one seems to suggest someone is a horse.

Hi Andrew, a bit off topic this, but I see your from Bacup. Mrs. Pony reckons the Channel 4 series "Brassic" was filmed there, starring our own Chorley lad Joe Gilgun. Is this true, and did you get yer fizzog into any of the scenes? :)

[RMutt]

Hi-ya Steve. Mrs. Pony is correct, a lot of Brassic was filmed in Bacup. The jury appears to be out on whether or not it is going to make us a tourist attraction. Apparently Joe Gilgun has come across as a really nice bloke to the people who have met him whilst he’s been filming. I haven’t actually seen it as I don’t have Sky. No I won’t be in it as I’ve not actually seen any shooting, I’m sure they would give me a role if they saw me though! Are you old enough to remember Juliette Bravo? Also filmed here as well as some bits of League of Gentlemen. Gritty northern charm is what they are after I suppose.

[Audio Al]

I would say yes it could deteriorate with age

Lazer efficiency , caps , solder dry joints , worn cd tray opperating components etc

[Pigmy Pony]

Well I will get round to having the Densen serviced/repaired, but unless they work a miracle on it, chances are I'll flog it. As I'm still loving the new Marantz. With the added bonus that its remote also works my Myryad pre. Making me into a right lazy git :)

[Audio Al]

Well I will get round to having the Densen serviced/repaired, but unless they work a miracle on it, chances are I'll flog it. As I'm still loving the new Marantz. With the added bonus that its remote also works my Myryad pre. Making me into a right lazy git :)

No more keep fit CD player then :(

[Pigmy Pony]

I suppose I could dust off my Jane Fonda workout video, but I outgrew my leotard years ago :( Also I can't be arsed getting the VCR out of the loft, too much like hard work.