View Full Version : Cartridge for a Current amplifying phono stage?
Has anyone got experience of a cartridge that is a good match for a current amplifying Phono Stage, like my Aqvox 2ci II ?
It has to have a healthy current output, which rules out most AT cartridges including my 33PTG II which outputs 0.03mA and the ART9 (similar output) which was on my radar. Hana, Benz, ZYX and Shelter models are a similar value. All these will work with my Phono Stage, but never perform at their best. My 33PTG for instance sounds dull and lacks dynamics, yet in my voltage amplifying Phono stage sounds great ( All other cartridge requirements, gain, compliance etc accepted).
According to a Stereophile review, of the Mr Labs Vera Phono Stage, which is a current amplifier. The Ortofon Quintet Black S is a good match and this outputs 0.06mA, if you use ohms law and divide the output voltage by the cartridge internal impedance. So this figure and higher is my starting point. Quite a few of the Ortofon's seem to fit the bill and also Goldring. I've listed a few below.
Ortofon
Quintet Black S = 0.06
Quintet Bronze = 0.06
Quintet Blue = 0.071
Cadenza Blue = 0.1
Old Rondo Bronze = 0.083
Old MC20 Supreme = 0.1 I have one of these, the suspension is starting to sag but it might be a stop gap solution.
Kontrapunkt A/B/C/H = 0.09 Maybe a retipped one.
Goldring
Eroica LX = 0.063
Elite = 0.063
Ethos = 0.125
Koetsu Black = 0.12
The Cadenza Blue and Koetsu Black are out of my price range and are for reference only.
So anyone got experience of any of the rest, or an alternative, used with a current amplifier?
Are your figures based on the cartridge output voltage quoted at 1cm/s?
The EMT TSD15N or XSD15, have an output voltage at 1cm/s of 0.21mV and a coil resistance of 24 Ohm. At a typical transverse velocity of 5cm/s, the current output will be 0.04mA or 40uV.
rubber duck
30-08-2019, 22:05
Ken, my AT33PTG does not sound dull or lacking in dynamics with my Aqvox 2ci and sounded more dynamic than the Quintet Blue. Have you played around with the gain settings?
Hi Barry
Vout all based on 1kHz @ 5cm/sec.
So the cartridge you quote is only slightly higher output than my 33PTG and two thirds of the Quintet Black.
The Quintet Black has twice the current output of my 33PTG, the Goldring Ethos has four times the current.
It's a different ball game when you look at Current output as opposed to Voltage.
I'm surprised more manufacturers don't go this route, as MC cartridges are balanced devices producing healthy current. Plus current amplifiers do not need load matching. I know Dynavector used to make one.
Ken, my AT33PTG does not sound dull or lacking in dynamics with my Aqvox 2ci and sounded more dynamic than the Quintet Blue. Have you played around with the gain settings?
Yes, my 33PTG requires the input gain to be at quite a high level, +8dB
Are you using them Balanced ?
Dynavector made (makes?) stages like this so presumably their range includes models suitable for such loading?
As far as I can tell gain is only one issue here, another must be the effect on the cantilever compliance due to the MC coils which will act as solenoids resisting movement as they now have to dissipate the power generated. How much of an issue this is, and it's effect on sonic presentation I have no clue though [emoji16]
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Dynavector made (makes?) stages like this so presumably their range includes models suitable for such loading?
As far as I can tell gain is only one issue here, another must be the effect on the cantilever compliance due to the MC coils which will act as solenoids resisting movement as they now have to dissipate the power generated. How much of an issue this is, and it's effect on sonic presentation I have no clue though [emoji16]
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Hi James
Issues of the total gain chain or compliance matching of Arms are not being considered and like I said, accepted that they exist.
The way my Phono stage works is a bit different to most and the input gain adjusters are used to match the cartridges current output, to the ideal level required by the rest of the Phono circuit. The input adjustment is up to +12dB but makes only a moderate difference to the actual output level of the Phono stage and the control acts more like a tone control. You can hear when you hit the sweet spot, too high and the cartridge sounds brighter and crisper, too low and it sounds warmer, but softer edged. The sweet spot and position of the controls will vary dependant upon the cartridges output and to a large degree on personal preference. It's a bit like load matching on a conventional voltage amplifying Phono stage, but with much more audible differences. If you wind any form of gain up, especially at the front of the chain, you are more likely to have distortion, background noise etc. So I think matching the cartridges Current output to the phono stages optimum requirement, where only a moderate amount of adjustment is required, is the key. That's the theory I'm looking to test.
Hi Barry
Vout all based on 1kHz @ 5cm/sec.
So the cartridge you quote is only slightly higher output than my 33PTG and two thirds of the Quintet Black.
The Quintet Black has twice the current output of my 33PTG, the Goldring Ethos has four times the current.
It's a different ball game when you look at Current output as opposed to Voltage.
I'm surprised more manufacturers don't go this route, as MC cartridges are balanced devices producing healthy current. Plus current amplifiers do not need load matching. I know Dynavector used to make one.
Yes, I agree my suggestion does not compare that well with those you quote, but I was only trying to establish your measurement criterion.
I certainly agree with you that all cartridges are essentially balanced sources, but I would question whether they should be regarded as current sources. But if you want an MC with a high current output, then you need to look at those having a very low internal coil resistance; though low coil resistance often means coils having fewer turns and hence low voltage output. But some MCs can have a reasonable voltage output, yet have low coil resistance, for example the Transfiguration 'Orpheus' has an output (at 3.45cm/s, lateral and vertical) of 0.48mV with a coil resistance of 2.5 Ohm, or a current output of 0.192mA.
Yes, I agree my suggestion does not compare that well with those you quote, but I was only trying to establish your measurement criterion.
I certainly agree with you that all cartridges are essentially balanced sources, but I would question whether they should be regarded as current sources. But if you want an MC with a high current output, then you need to look at those having a very low internal coil resistance; though low coil resistance often means coils having fewer turns and hence low voltage output. But some MCs can have a reasonable voltage output, yet have low coil resistance, for example the Transfiguration 'Orpheus' has an output (at 3.45cm/s, lateral and vertical) of 0.48mV with a coil resistance of 2.5 Ohm, or a current output of 0.192mA.
The Opheus is expensive but as you mention, very strong output. I was looking at the Axia S last week, one came up used, 0.1mA output, which is pretty good. Seems like Transfiguration have vanished though, I looked at 6 of the dealers named on their website and non of them list Transfiguration as a brand or have the Axia S listed if you do a search. I don't know anyone that sells them, their address is only 14 miles from me though.
I think I will drop my Ortofon MC20 Supreme into my TT and see how that works, it has sagging suspension, but hasn't gone yet and has a 0.1mA output (0.5mV/5ohm). It might be worth giving it a try to see what happens. I will have to get my system working first, the loud speakers are undergoing a cabinet rebuild and I've got to the veneering stage.
337alant
31-08-2019, 18:30
Ken
I never owned the quintet Black but I set one up in Petch's turntable so had it in my system for a day or so
Personally I did not rate it at all dull and lifeless IMO, dont think Steve kept it long either as he also didnt like it
.
Alan
Ok, noted Alan. It might behave a bit differently when used in balanced current mode, but I'm pretty sure the basic character will still be the same.
I've used the Aqvox for about 12 years now; mine is an early Mark II with up to 14 dB of gain adjustment on the gain pots.
I'm surprised you find the AT 33 PTG dull or lacking in dynamics with the Aqvox. For mono I use an AT 33 Mono which would appear to be very similarly spec'd and I don't find it to be that way at all, and equal in that area to the Accuphase AC2 I'm using for stereo.
For reference, the AT 33 Mono is spec'd at .35 mV output and 10 ohms internal impedance, the Accuphase at .18 mV with a 4 ohm internal impedance. I have the gain pots set at +2 with the AT 33 Mono and +8 with the Accuphase. The cartridges are on two different arms on the same table, both using the same version of the same phono lead (an Audio Sensibility cable). Using +8 dB with the AT 33 Mono would make my ears bleed in my system.
I also used a couple of rebuilt Ortofon MC 20 Supers in the past and modified Denon 103R's. The Accuphase is simply a grossly superior cartridge to those with the Aqvox, even though it is spec'd similarly to the MC 20 Super.
My gut feeling is that the Aqvox is going to work best with low internal impedance cartridges (2-10 ohms) with outputs in the .15 to .4 mV range. I also ran an Audio Technica AT 3 MONO/LP for a while (with 1.2 mV output and 40 ohm internal impedance) and felt that the balanced input/output with that cartridge simply provided too much gain, even with the gain pots turned to 0.
I know that I'd be reluctant, based on my experience with it, to be popping for any cartridge with an output of .5 mV or greater, almost regardless of internal impedance.
The gain pots on the Aqvox have a huge overall effect in my system and the sweet spot is exceedingly narrow with any given cartridge in my opinion: certainly within 1-2 dB. But no doubt, as you say, that subjective listening preferences come into play.
Hi Blake
Thanks for sharing your experience.
You are right about the +14dB gain. I said +12dB from memory. Mine is also an early Mk II.
Are you using yours with balanced inputs as a current amplifier? I presume you are, but you mentioned "Phono leads" which I always associate with RCA connections and single ended input. Also, the Accuphase has a higher current output (0.045mA) to the AT33 mono (0.035mA) so should need less gain not more if used balanced/current. The AT3Mono has a current output of only 0.03mA, all your comments seem to relate to the voltage output, the higher that is the less gain you used. So I am a bit confused. To calculate the Current output, divide the output voltage (usually specified for 1kHz@5cm/sec) by the cartridges internal inductance/resistance. eg 1.2mV/40ohm=0.03mA for the AT3mono. The voltage output is irrelevant on a current amplifier, only as much as it is used to calculate the current. High voltage / low impedance = high current. But high voltage / high impedance can still be a low current output.
It may be that my balanced interconnects from the cartridge are the problem. I started using these leads at the time I fitted the 33PTG. I made them myself, following the instructions on the Aqvox web site, which is:
A twisted pair of conductors with a separate single strand of "shield" wire laid alongside the twist and connected at the phono stage end only, to pin1 of the XLR input. These all wrapped in an expandable woven jacket. The left and right channels in separate jackets. The shield wire acts as an aerial picking up interference and is floating, being connected at one end only. This is the same construction as Aqvox's own leads, they say a full braided shield cable is not as open sounding, so I followed their instructions to the letter. They use either Copper or Silver wire for a warmer/cooler sound, I used Gold plated OFC Copper. My leads are 1m long.
Hi Ken:
Yes, I'm running into the balanced/current input and you're absolutely correct that the current numbers as calculated on my 3 cartridges are counterintuitive in terms of the settings I've arrived at with the gain pots. But there's no question in my mind that the general area in which I have the settings is correct (ie. the Accuphase needing the highest adjustment on the gain pots and the AT 3 MONO/LP having too much gain even with the pots set to 0).
Aqvox stated (at least with the literature that came with my unit) that the gain provided at the XLR inputs ranges from 55-75 dB depending on output voltage/impedance of the cartridge (current) and if you take those numbers into account, my gain settings on the Aqvox pot are really not that much different than they would be on a typical voltage phono amplifier. The Aqvox cartridges, if you take a close look at them, appear to be, both physically and technically, reworkings of the Ortofon MC 20 Super, (which is very similar in terms of output voltage & impedance to the Accuphase) and their recommendation of 14:30 to 15:30 hours on the gain pots for those cartridges is where I've essentially ended up with on the Accuphase and also the MC 20 Supers when I ran them. I'm closer to 14:30, or +8 dead on as I find that with the gain pots adjusted higher the sound starts to harden up and the soundstage collapse.
So I think that strictly trying to maximize the current the cartridge provides may not necessarily be the way to go, although I do think that sticking with cartridges that have a fairly low internal impedance is definitely a good idea in terms of how the current input works on the Aqvox.
One thing which I thought about after I posted which I did not mention is that I run balanced out as well as balanced in, so I'm running fully balanced from cartridge to speaker. I'm not technically astute enough to know if you are running XLR in on the Aqvox and RCA out to your preamp or integrated how much that would affect the typical additional 6 dB of gain that you are going to pick up with a balanced connection.
Others (or Aqvox) might have to chime in on that for you, but it is possible that might be coming into play for you if you are using the RCA outputs and if the 6 dB additional gain was negated in that setup then your +8 and my +2 for our similarly spec'd AT cartridges would essentially be the same. And that would also probably allow you to use higher output cartridges that would be pushing the limit for me.
If you are thinking of purchasing a new phono cable and want something reasonable, I'd highly recommend the Audio Sensibility Impact cable. DIN to XLR is about $225 CAD or about 140 pound sterling and it is a remarkable cable for the money. If you do purchase one pay the additional few quid to have it burned in.
rubber duck
01-09-2019, 14:22
Yes, my 33PTG requires the input gain to be at quite a high level, +8dB
Are you using them Balanced ?
Apologies for the late reply. Yes, my 33 is run in balanced/current mode with 3dB gain. But mine is a Mk I version. Just turned on the system last night for the first time since July(!) and can confirm that the AT33PTG is pretty dynamic through the Aqvox.
Apologies for the late reply. Yes, my 33 is run in balanced/current mode with 3dB gain. But mine is a Mk I version. Just turned on the system last night for the first time since July(!) and can confirm that the AT33PTG is pretty dynamic through the Aqvox.
Hi Jeff: Are you running XLR's out or RCA's out?
Blake/Jeff
Thanks for the replies.
I'm fully balanced throughout my system.
So there seems more to it than just requiring a high current output.
I need special leads as I use a Linear tracker with a particular make (diameter) of 5 pin Din plug needed, as this is clamped into the base of my arm.
I have two separate XLR cables for R/L channels that terminate in the single five Pin Din plug.
The combination of leads from my cartridge to Din socket & Din plug to Aqvox may be the issue.
When I used continuous Silver wires from the cartridge tags, straight into the back of my Pro-Ject Voltage amplifying Phono stage, the 33PTG sounded great. Same when using these leads into the Aqvox in Voltage mode. They were very short and very delicate though, unshielded multi strand Silver wires wrapped in silk, just loose flapping about. The weight of the XLR Plugs could break them, so I wanted something more robust.
I think I need to do some investigating regarding the leads. If you get into hundreds of pounds, I may as well get the Aqvox leads, I was hoping to avoid that kind of expenditure though.
Blake, you missed the answer in Jeffs reply "Yes, my 33 is run in balanced/current mode with 3dB gain"
Edit: The two Aqvox cartridges are basically the same, the Prestige has carefully matched component values, that's the only difference, but you pay a lot for it. They are on offer at Aqvox webshop. Premium reduced from 795 Euro to 495 Euro. Prestige reduced from 995 Euro to 695 Euro, VAT included but not shipping. The Premium looks tempting at that price.
Hi Ken,
I'm surprised you think that Benz aren't a good match, my Glider SL sounds terrific into my RSL phono stage, more alive than quite a few carts I've tried including an AT33SA. I don't know it's current output but it's the best I've ever heard it, including into another current amplifier the Dynavector P-75, although it also sounded great into that!
Won't have a traditional phono stage of any sort again after hearing mine.
Hi Ken,
I'm surprised you think that Benz aren't a good match, my Glider SL sounds terrific into my RSL phono stage, more alive than quite a few carts I've tried including an AT33SA. I don't know it's current output but it's the best I've ever heard it, including into another current amplifier the Dynavector P-75, although it also sounded great into that!
Won't have a traditional phono stage of any sort again after hearing mine.
I was basing this purely on current output and a review saying a particular 0.06mA cartridge was a good match for a current amplifier.
Most AT and Benz are around 0.03mA plus a lot of others, so I was looking for something higher.
After the comments from some other Aqvox 2ci users, it looks like current is not the only deciding factor for compatibility, so I'm really back to square one and looking at how well suited my interconnects are.
I've always liked the Benz Gliders and heard a few, including the gull wing, they look really cool as well :D
They could be back on the radar along with the AT ART9
rubber duck
01-09-2019, 20:28
Hi Jeff: Are you running XLR's out or RCA's out?
Blake/Jeff
Blake, you missed the answer in Jeffs reply "Yes, my 33 is run in balanced/current mode with 3dB gain"
Ken, I think Blake is asking if my tonearm cable is wired with XLRs or if I use RCAs with an XLR adapter. I think this is an important point. Without wishing to complicate matters, my Aqvox has had the XLR sockets replaced with RCA sockets that retains balanced connection. So I can run my existing RCA tonearm cable directly into the balanced input of the Aqvox without adapters.
Ken, I think Blake is asking if my tonearm cable is wired with XLRs or if I use RCAs with an XLR adapter. I think this is an important point. Without wishing to complicate matters, my Aqvox has had the XLR sockets replaced with RCA sockets that retains balanced connection. So I can run my existing RCA tonearm cable directly into the balanced input of the Aqvox without adapters.
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I was really asking was whether you (or Ken) are using the XLR outputs on the Aqvox to your upstream integrated or preamp, as it is possible to use a balanced tonearm lead with XLR's into the Aqvox and then use the RCA outputs. I do NOT do this as I have balanced tonearm cables with XLR's and then run a balanced cable (again with XLR's) from the XLR outputs on the Aqvox into a balanced/XLR input on my integrated. So balanced all the way-both in and out of the Aqvox.
Jeff: does your Aqvox have a history with Werner Ogiers? I can vaguely recall somebody making that modification on an Aqvox in the early days and think it may have been Werner.
For what it's worth Werner, when he reviewed the Aqvox for TNT came up with a number of cartridges that were a bit "outside the box" in terms of how he felt they might perform with the phono stage. In other words, he had an expectation that they might not work very well and then they did!
I'm Balanced XLR's for everything.
I made an enquiry at Aqvox and their Premier/Prestige cartridges have an internal impedance of 15ohms "Termination" figure on the spec sheet. which gives them only 0.012mA current output, that is very low indeed. Yet they recommend input Gain set to 14:30 to 15:30 position which is around +8 to +11dB.
I will persevere with the AT 33PTG II before jumping ship, as it looks as though it should sound better than what I'm getting. :)
I'm Balanced XLR's for everything.
I made an enquiry at Aqvox and their Premier/Prestige cartridges have an internal impedance of 15ohms "Termination" figure on the spec sheet. which gives them only 0.012mA current output, that is very low indeed. Yet they recommend input Gain set to 14:30 to 15:30 position which is around +8 to +11dB.
I will persevere with the AT 33PTG II before jumping ship, as it looks as though it should sound better than what I'm getting. :)
Have my serious doubts about that "Termination" number being close at all to the actual internal impedance. I'd bet money on those cartridges being OEM'd by Ortofon and being very similar to the anniversary edition of the MC 20 Super, which was out at around the same time Aqvox started selling those cartridges. The Anniversary MC 20 Super was quoted at .25 mV output with an internal impedance of 5, although the original MC 20 Super (of which I had 2 in use here) also seemed to be spec'd at .2 mV and either a 4 or 5 internal impedance.
Ortofon had a recommended load impedance with the Anniversary of >10 ohms, so 15 ohms "termination" would fit the bill. :) That kind of recommendation is redundant, of course, with the current mode input as Aqvox points out on their web page.
Both my MC 20 Supers worked well with the Aqvox with the gain setting in that area. My Accuphase, with similar specs is in another league entirely with similar gain settings.
But I agree: the AT 33 PTG II should work quite well and sound very nice with the Aqvox. My AT 33 Mono, which has only .05 mV more in terms of output and the same internal impedance sounds really good with it. Astonishingly good for the price.
I think the Aqvox cartridges would be a sideways move at best for you.
It's not normal for an OEM to sell on something exactly matching an own current product.
They usually make a few tweaks to parameters and Aqvox may have specified certain requirements of their own. You find this a lot with Speaker drivers, almost, but not quite the same as someone else's.
"I think the Aqvox cartridges would be a sideways move at best for you."
Yes, I think your right, I'm not going to make any rash decisions till I've given the AT33PTG II another go.
So my original posted question was worth asking, thanks for the input guys, I have to course to follow when I get my speakers finished and my set up back up and running.
I'll feed back any progress I make.
Well its been a while, my TT with linear tracking arm have been out of use, while I was building a digital file based set up and doing a bit of box swapping.
Got it back into service this week and decided to give the AT33PTGII another chance.
I mounted the Aqvox Phono stage directly under the TT which allowed me to shorten the lead between the two by 60% - DIY Gold platted single strand copper, unshielded twisted Pair. (From HFC)
Also replaced my old Klotz MC5000 balanced leads, between the Aqvox and my Pre. I find the Klotz quite muddy now, when in a direct comparison with the likes of Mogami 2549, I replaced them with some Elecaudio SC-221 OCC cable, which I'm using throughout now. Its my fit and forget cable, good across the board without any vices.
Meanwhile, my Pre has changed from the PS Audio Stellar GCD (SS) to the Schiit Freya Plus (valve).
The cartridge stylus pressure was still spot on at 2g but the Azimuth and VTA were both slightly out, so a quick tweak sorted that.
End result - Bliss!
Sounding great, note to self, leave it alone.
I would go as far as to say, it's the best my vinyl has sounded, so a combination of IC leads and cartridge set up were causing my woes.
Liking the AT33PTGII again, it really is a very good cartridge for the money.
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