Tuner Dilema

[quadsugdenman]

I own a number of reasonable Japanese FM Tuners from the 70's and 80's which were in use all over my previous property via a 5 element roof mounted aerial.
Due to my current circumstances we have downsized into rented accommodation and are unable to mount an FM aerial on the bungalow. I have been using a Sony DAB tuner as a temporary measure which is wired via the TV point in my listening room to a loft TV/FM amplifier and then to a loft mounted DAB aerial. Digtal radio is ok when fed through my Caiman but I would like to have decent FM also.
Question: Could I mount a loft FM aerial and share the downfeed via a Y connector to the loft amp to my listening room and then split off the signal there from an amplified aerial multi-point into an FM tuner?:scratch:
Am I wasting my time? If so I will obviously have to rethink my set up or get rid of the tuners.:(:(:(
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Garry

[The Vinyl Adventure]

if you decide to sell them talk to neil (delek supreme dl) if he doesnt notice this

[Ali Tait]

Don't see why that wouldn't work.Give it a go and see.Maplin do some cheap FM aeriels.

[Stratmangler]

You'd need a couple of these http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=5126
TV is still broadcast on UHF, and the multiplex carriers for DAB are still classed as VHF.

[Spectral Morn]

I own a number of reasonable Japanese FM Tuners from the 70's and 80's which were in use all over my previous property via a 5 element roof mounted aerial.
Due to my current circumstances we have downsized into rented accommodation and are unable to mount an FM aerial on the bungalow. I have been using a Sony DAB tuner as a temporary measure which is wired via the TV point in my listening room to a loft TV/FM amplifier and then to a loft mounted DAB aerial. Digtal radio is ok when fed through my Caiman but I would like to have decent FM also.
Question: Could I mount a loft FM aerial and share the downfeed via a Y connector to the loft amp to my listening room and then split off the signal there from an amplified aerial multi-point into an FM tuner?:scratch:
Am I wasting my time? If so I will obviously have to rethink my set up or get rid of the tuners.:(:(:(
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.



Garry

Hi Gary

It would be a shame to have to move your tuners on, though depending on what they are, I might be interested.

However lets see if we can help you keep them.

I don't mount an outside aerial and despite the few DB of loss because of the roof I manage to get a very good signal. So roofspace is not a disaster if A you live close to the main transmitter (not much help to DXing though) and B you put in a very large aerial to maximise pick up and minimise roofing material loss.

The aerial I use is a large 4 (or is it 5 :scratch:) element yagi. This takes up the whole width of the roof space that which you can stand up in. I recently replaced all the coax feed to it via good quality low loss foam cored cable. I used to use an amplifier at the midway point with the old cable which I left in and I hooked it up to an omni I used to use as my main FM aerial.

With the new wire installed (I had to lift floorboards)which has no breaks in it I no longer need the amplifier to get excellent results.

The problem with using amplifiers and mixing TV signals into them (if that's what you want to do) so you can feed via one cable down to the room is that you are introducing a lot of extra crap and noise into the down-feed which probably wont help much but if the amplifier is good (no added noise of its own) and the quality of cabling is also very good then it is probably worth ago. What have you got to loose a few quid and a few hours work to find out. I personally keep TV signals and FM signal separate via different cable-feeds to the living room.

Are close is your local transmitter ? If close and the tuners like it (and some sound better via this type of aerial) you could build yourself a 300 ohm aerial and mount it in the same room as your kit. I have mine mounted behind the bay window curtain rail (plastic not metal) this works well with many of the tuners I have.

I started this thread awhile ago about FM aerials and there is some useful info here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5189

Chris (The Grand Wazoo) knows more about this than me so his opinion will be valuable as well.

I know I am sad having three FM aerials but as I am working on a tuner review I felt I should be able to feed the tuners with a choice of signals.

Which tuners do you have as some are more sensitive and selective than others ?


Regards D S D L

[quadsugdenman]

Hi Gentlemen

Thank you gents. However I apologise I have misled you. I really only want to feed DAB/FM signals through the same fixed wiring (Coaxial line from loft mounted aerials to the TV outlet in my listening room). Therefore currently the loft DAB feeds directly to the room specific wiring and does not pass through the TV amplifier.
I therefore want to set up an FM aerial alongside the DAB both fed to a Y connecter into the feed into the listening room. In that room I take those signals and feed them to an amplified multifeed for Fm and take one feed to a DB radio (as now) and take a feed to the FM tuners. I wish I could do as before with 5 element roof and dedicated FM wiring to each room. As it is rented not possible for any externals.
Current Tuners:
Hitachi FT5500 MKII
Yamaha T-1
Aiwa 9700
Kenwood (Trio) KT 990SDL
Sansui T80

Troughline II / Rogers Ravensbrook / Sugden R21/Quad FM3

Some of these are still stored somewhere in the house but haven't been seen since I moved!

I will try this out with a 3 element loft aerial to start with as there is not enough room to swing a cat up there at the moment!!:)

Garry

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Gentlemen

Thank you gents. However I apologise I have misled you. I really only want to feed DAB/FM signals through the same fixed wiring (Coaxial line from loft mounted aerials to the TV outlet in my listening room). Therefore currently the loft DAB feeds directly to the room specific wiring and does not pass through the TV amplifier.
I therefore want to set up an FM aerial alongside the DAB both fed to a Y connecter into the feed into the listening room. In that room I take those signals and feed them to an amplified multifeed for Fm and take one feed to a DB radio (as now) and take a feed to the FM tuners. I wish I could do as before with 5 element roof and dedicated FM wiring to each room. As it is rented not possible for any externals.
Current Tuners:
Hitachi FT5500 MKII
Yamaha T-1
Aiwa 9700
Kenwood (Trio) KT 990SDL
Sansui T80

Troughline II / Rogers Ravensbrook / Sugden R21/Quad FM3

Some of these are still stored somewhere in the house but haven't been seen since I moved!

I will try this out with a 3 element loft aerial to start with as there is not enough room to swing a cat up there at the moment!!:)

Garry

If it does not work out for you give me a shout re the Aiwa 9700, Kenwood 990, Yamaha T1 and Hitachi 5500.


Regards D S D L

[quadsugdenman]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I am in and out of the loft as we speak. I will let you know how I get on hopefully by the weekend.
Neil you will be the first to know if I have to part with the tuners as I would want them going to a good home!!!!!;)

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I am in and out of the loft as we speak. I will let you know how I get on hopefully by the weekend.
Neil you will be the first to know if I have to part with the tuners as I would want them going to a good home!!!!!;)

All the best I hope it works out for you :)


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Garry,
I've tuned in late to this, but it looks like Neil's been helping you out a bit.
Very obviously, an awful lot is going to depend on your available signal. As Neil says, don't overlook the 300 ohm aerial option, we tend to be a bit sniffy about this in the UK, but often for no good reason - it's likely to be a viable alternative for the Japanese models you have but probably not so hot for the UK models.

Again, as Neil says on his old thread we did discuss this pretty thoroughly & I posted some details about how to make a really good 300 ohm wire - much better than the crappy ones you buy for a couple of quid.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Garry,
I've tuned in late to this, but it looks like Neil's been helping you out a bit.
Very obviously, an awful lot is going to depend on your available signal. As Neil says, don't overlook the 300 ohm aerial option, we tend to be a bit sniffy about this in the UK, but often for no good reason - it's likely to be a viable alternative for the Japanese models you have but probably not so hot for the UK models.

Again, as Neil says on his old thread we did discuss this pretty thoroughly & I posted some details about how to make a really good 300 ohm wire - much better than the crappy ones you buy for a couple of quid.

Indeed and I made my own to suit my needs :)


Regards D S D L

[quadsugdenman]

Hi Garry,
I've tuned in late to this, but it looks like Neil's been helping you out a bit.
Very obviously, an awful lot is going to depend on your available signal. As Neil says, don't overlook the 300 ohm aerial option, we tend to be a bit sniffy about this in the UK, but often for no good reason - it's likely to be a viable alternative for the Japanese models you have but probably not so hot for the UK models.

Again, as Neil says on his old thread we did discuss this pretty thoroughly & I posted some details about how to make a really good 300 ohm wire - much better than the crappy ones you buy for a couple of quid.

Hi Chris,

I have tried the Hitachi FT5500 II (good sensitivity) using a B&Q 300ohm aerial and it did not even register on the signal strength meter! I fear that I am in the middle of the Belmont, Tolcasten and Peterborough transmitters so will need to position the aerial very carefully to pull in even a passable signal.
Nonetheless I will try your 300ohm aerial at some point in the future.
Thank you once again

Garry :)

[DSJR]

Yeah, the 5500 was a great "sensitive-radio," if not especially good sounding with it... if that one has difficulties, you're well scrumped I reckon..

Have you tried the TV aerial by the way. I know it's the wrong format, but "sometimes" it can be a great compromise and an FM/TV socket-balun-splitter thingy whatsit may be all you need if you're very lucky..

The vultures are hovering - bear me in mind for the Sugden tuner if it gets found and is no longer needed :)

[Barry]

Hello Garry,

If you are getting a strong enough signal from your loft mounted DAB aerial, then you ought to be able to get a sufficiently strong signal from your FM aerial. I assume that you will be using the 5 element aerial that you used to use, though if you are using a TV/FM amplifier you could well get away with a 3 element design.

To be able to use a common down feed, you need to use a diplexer at each end, as Chris has suggested. Ideally though, as Neil has mentioned, it is better to keep the TV and radio signals separate. However since you are living in rented property, I doubt whether you would be allowed to run a separate down lead.

Regarding the advantages or otherwise between 300Ω ‘ribbon’ aerials and 75Ω aerials, there is some confusion here. It all depends on which system the tuner has been designed to work with. There is no intrinsic advantage to either. 300Ω ribbon aerials are popular in America, and this system was adopted by the Japanese. The 300Ω ribbon aerials are easier to install; especially in apartment blocks where access to, and the ability to install roof mounted aerials is difficult. In the UK, we had already adopted the 75Ω system for television reception, so by the time FM radio came along a 75Ω impedance was used as well. However some British tuners do have a provision for both impedance systems: the Quad FM3 and Leak ‘Troughline’ come to mind. In the case of the Quad, this tuner uses a ‘balun’ to allow both systems to be used, and in the case of the Leak, the first transformer has a centre tap on the primary winding.

If a tuner designed for 300Ω aerial impedance is used with a 75Ω aerial, it will suffer a 4:1 impedance mismatch, leading to a transmission loss of about 2dB. This could well explain why Neil has noticed some degradation in sound quality when using 75Ω impedance aerials. It might be possible to use these tuners with such aerials, if the centre conductor is connected to one of the 300Ω aerial screw terminals on the back of the tuner (it doesn’t matter which one of the two you choose) and the screen braid to the metal chassis.

Ribbon aerials can work well, but ideally they do need to be arranged so that the arms of the dipole are broadside to the transmitter. In that respect the 75Ω impedance aerials are better, since having a certain amount of directionality, they have to be pointed towards the transmitter; something you can do with either a roof-mounted or loft-mounted aerial.

Trust this is of some help, and I haven’t ‘blitzed’ you with too much information.

Regards

[quadsugdenman]

Hello Garry,

If you are getting a strong enough signal from your loft mounted DAB aerial, then you ought to be able to get a sufficiently strong signal from your FM aerial. I assume that you will be using the 5 element aerial that you used to use, though if you are using a TV/FM amplifier you could well get away with a 3 element design.

To be able to use a common down feed, you need to use a diplexer at each end, as Chris has suggested. Ideally though, as Neil has mentioned, it is better to keep the TV and radio signals separate. However since you are living in rented property, I doubt whether you would be allowed to run a separate down lead.

Regarding the advantages or otherwise between 300Ω ‘ribbon’ aerials and 75Ω aerials, there is some confusion here. It all depends on which system the tuner has been designed to work with. There is no intrinsic advantage to either. 300Ω ribbon aerials are popular in America, and this system was adopted by the Japanese. The 300Ω ribbon aerials are easier to install; especially in apartment blocks where access to, and the ability to install roof mounted aerials is difficult. In the UK, we had already adopted the 75Ω system for television reception, so by the time FM radio came along a 75Ω impedance was used as well. However some British tuners do have a provision for both impedance systems: the Quad FM3 and Leak ‘Troughline’ come to mind. In the case of the Quad, this tuner uses a ‘balun’ to allow both systems to be used, and in the case of the Leak, the first transformer has a centre tap on the primary winding.

If a tuner designed for 300Ω aerial impedance is used with a 75Ω aerial, it will suffer a 4:1 impedance mismatch, leading to a transmission loss of about 2dB. This could well explain why Neil has noticed some degradation in sound quality when using 75Ω impedance aerials. It might be possible to use these tuners with such aerials, if the centre conductor is connected to one of the 300Ω aerial screw terminals on the back of the tuner (it doesn’t matter which one of the two you choose) and the screen braid to the metal chassis.

Ribbon aerials can work well, but ideally they do need to be arranged so that the arms of the dipole are broadside to the transmitter. In that respect the 75Ω impedance aerials are better, since having a certain amount of directionality, they have to be pointed towards the transmitter; something you can do with either a roof-mounted or loft-mounted aerial.

Trust this is of some help, and I haven’t ‘blitzed’ you with too much information.

Regards

Hi Barry,

I will be using a loft mounted 3 element as the previous 5 element is still affixed to the previous abode!!! (New owner has no idea what he has got there until he tries to plug his TV into those wll sockets!!)
I have learnt a great deal today and will now try out some of the advice given. Like to try Chris's 300ohm homemade arrangement. Where I am is OK for DAB but have yet to try FM. Hopefully it will be comparable in signal strength given the positioning etc re transmitters.
Thanks again
Gazza :cheers:

[Codifus]

I own a number of reasonable Japanese FM Tuners from the 70's and 80's which were in use all over my previous property via a 5 element roof mounted aerial.
Due to my current circumstances we have downsized into rented accommodation and are unable to mount an FM aerial on the bungalow. I have been using a Sony DAB tuner as a temporary measure which is wired via the TV point in my listening room to a loft TV/FM amplifier and then to a loft mounted DAB aerial. Digtal radio is ok when fed through my Caiman but I would like to have decent FM also.
Question: Could I mount a loft FM aerial and share the downfeed via a Y connector to the loft amp to my listening room and then split off the signal there from an amplified aerial multi-point into an FM tuner?:scratch:
Am I wasting my time? If so I will obviously have to rethink my set up or get rid of the tuners.:(:(:(
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Garry

I used to love those FM tuners....I think the best they ever made was in the 70s and 80s. All these new models are just toys because digital fm and the internet have taken over, and not necessarily for the better.

You should take a look at this site;

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

These guys REALLY love tuners and may be able to help in your situation.

CD

[Barry]

I used to love those FM tuners....I think the best they ever made was in the 70s and 80s. All these new models are just toys because digital fm and the internet have taken over, and not necessarily for the better.

You should take a look at this site;

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

These guys REALLY love tuners and may be able to help in your situation.

CD

Yes, it's a useful site. They also 'name and shame' the charletons, the bull-shitters, the scammers and the downright dishonest eBay'ers.

Regards

[Spectral Morn]

I used to love those FM tuners....I think the best they ever made was in the 70s and 80s. All these new models are just toys because digital fm and the internet have taken over, and not necessarily for the better.

You should take a look at this site;

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

These guys REALLY love tuners and may be able to help in your situation.

CD


Hate to say it but I am a member of the group and I found them to be a tad unhelpful when I asked some simple questions about where to get bulbs for certain tuners. Other than that the actual site is excellent.Chris helped me in minutes nuff said....

Other than that the actual site is excellent.


Regards D S D L

[Barry]

Hate to say it but I am a member of the group and I found them to be a tad unhelpful when I asked some simple questions about where to get bulbs for certain tuners. Chris helped me in minutes nuff said....


Regards D S D L

Ah yes - but then we all know what a special and unique site AoS is!

Long may it continue.

Regards

[Spectral Morn]

Ah yes - but then we all know what a special and unique site AoS is!

Long may it continue.

Regards


Indeed yes :)


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

I find the tuner site interesting but rather a lot of conflicting opinion. It's great if you need a quick source of hard facts (specs, features, layout etc). I always thought that no matter how many people say a particular model is less than good, all it needs is one positive comment (almost always from someone with a vested interest - ie they own that model and want to justify that ownership) and the other lesser opinions are nullified. The opposite to mud sticking.

[quadsugdenman]

I also have mixed experience of that website. I was a member of the forums on that website until I got so angry with their very parochial views. I got into a slanging match over Sugden tuners which were described as 'homemade, amateur rubbish' because they could not DX and the tuning scale was not fit for purpose etc. :mental:
Yes compared to the Japanese tuners they lacked a little sophistication but fed with a good signal the sound was often unbeatable on classical music and spoken word. The Sugden R21 and R51 were not designed for the cluttered airwaves of the US. A fact acknowledged by Patrick Miller at Sugden.
In contrast, when I needed help on one of my favourite tuners the Aiwa 9700, people in the forum were so generous with their time and documented information:clap:
It is a brilliant site for model facts and figures but very blinkered in many other respects.
Gazza

[Barry]

I also have mixed experience of that website. I was a member of the forums on that website until I got so angry with their very parochial views. I got into a slanging match over Sugden tuners which were described as 'homemade, amateur rubbish' because they could not DX and the tuning scale was not fit for purpose etc. :mental:
Yes compared to the Japanese tuners they lacked a little sophistication but fed with a good signal the sound was often unbeatable on classical music and spoken word. The Sugden R21 and R51 were not designed for the cluttered airwaves of the US. A fact acknowledged by Patrick Miller at Sugden.
In contrast, when I needed help on one of my favourite tuners the Aiwa 9700, people in the forum were so generous with their time and documented information:clap:
It is a brilliant site for model facts and figures but very blinkered in many other respects.
Gazza

That's true for all British tuners. They just don't have the selectivity, image rejection or capture ratio that American tuners have, because it's not needed here. Anyway to do the job properly in America, you need to use a highly directional aerial with an aerial rotator.

All I require a tuner to do is pick up Radio 3 and 4, Classic FM and Jazz FM.

Regards

[quadsugdenman]

All I require a tuner to do is pick up Radio 3 and 4, Classic FM and Jazz FM.



In a nutshell Barry I think anyone who listens to FM or DAB can pick and choose what they want to listen to and the magic it is, in the main, free!
Yes sound quality can vary greatly but some broadcasts on Radio 3 /4 can be stunning. I am completely stumped by the attitude of the BBC and the previous Labour administration. Ramming an obviously flawed DAB down our throats whilst threatening to switch off FM. :mental: I believe it is all about cost!!!! :eyebrows:

Gazza