View Full Version : The Toy System June 2010
Steve Toy
03-06-2010, 11:21
Marco came round last week and we spun some tunes, notably the latest Katie Melua.
We did some fiddling around with setup as can be expected and changed the order in which components were inserted into the block. The AOS filter which is in line for the CD transport and DAC stages was moved to position 1 in the block with the pre and power amps taking positions 2 and 3. This gave us a subtle improvement in dynamics and timing.
Then we lifted the block off the floor and re-positioned it on the lowest shelf.
The resulting reduction in microphony was quite dramatic with a cleaner, more focussed and more articulate presentation across the board.
Anyway, some pictures:
Whole system comprising of borrowed Eikos Precision CD player with Tom Evans off-board PSUs, AOS/Tube Distinctions grounded grid preamp with off-board PSU, Tube Distinctions 30W Class A push/pull Copper amp and Heco Celan 700 loudspeakers.
Ancilliaries include acrylic Quadraspire Reference stands, Music Works Reflex Block, Mark Grant mains leads, one Music Works ReCoil lead (on borrowed time), Mark Grant G1000HD interconnects, Sterling Black Mamba speaker cables, Coherent Systems jumper leads, AOS/Tube Distinctions mains filter for the CD player only, dedicated mains (10mm cable) and dedicated star earth.
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7972/systemjune10001.jpg (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10001.jpg/)
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4953/systemjune10002.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10002.jpg/)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2218/systemjune10003.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10003.jpg/)
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2139/systemjune10004.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10004.jpg/)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8528/systemjune10005.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10005.jpg/)
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4262/systemjune10006.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10006.jpg/)
Spectral Morn
03-06-2010, 11:47
Looking very nice and tidy Steve :)
Regards D S D L
Steve Toy
03-06-2010, 11:54
Thanks. BTW, I read your G1000HD review last night. Very thorough and professional. :)
Spectral Morn
03-06-2010, 12:05
Thanks. BTW, I read your G1000HD review last night. Very thorough and professional. :)
Thank you :)
Regards D S D L
I need to get a listen to those Heco's.... I believe hifi dave has a pair..........
Very nice system, Steve ! :) I hope to be able to listen to it one day ! ;)
Beechwoods
03-06-2010, 18:45
Nice indeed Steve, and I know from experience at Scalford what a difference your stand and mains block make, with the copper amp and grounded grid pre-. Your consumer unit and wall-plug mounting could do with a bit of gloss-white though. I'm surprised Mrs T hasn't put her foot down about that ;)
Looking good, Steve (since we tidied it up! ;))
The heavily-modified Eikos CD player Steve's currently borrowing from Anthony is, quite frankly, astonishing and without doubt one of the best CDPs I've ever heard :eek:
It is a shining example of what red book CD is capable of when done properly. In the areas where it excels (pin-point timing accuracy, seductive phrasing of vocals, and an almost uncanny sync-locking of temporal shifts within music), amongst many other of its sonic attributes, it is *THE* best I've heard. I could happily live with this player myself.
Steve's system now, in terms of sheer musical communication and emotional involvement, is one of best I've had the pleasure to listen to, and is testament to what can be achieved with serious attention to detail in terms of set-up, and judicious ancillary and equipment selection. Everything synergises together so well to create spine-tingling drama with all genres of music....
Once he gets a decent pair of speakers, it'll be really good!!! :lol: :lol:
Only kidding - the Hecos are excellent for the money. They offer superb 'bang for your buck' (and are pretty transparent, too), but in the final analysis are somewhat outclassed by the outstanding source and control components upstream. Steve is however fully aware of this.
When he attends to that (almost) final part of the jigsaw, then his system will truly deserve the title of 'AOS Reference' :cool:
Marco.
Looks great !
I had a play about with an Eikos cdp a couple of years ago, not half bad to say its a tweaked up Pioneer PDS904
The one Steve's got though Leo is a whole different ball game. As you can see (observe the array of black boxes to the left of Steve's stands), it has some serious power supply arrangements going on! :)
Marco.
Just shows though what can be had from a mid priced cdp after modding the arse off it
I presume the external psu's was added extra's ;)
Steve Toy
05-06-2010, 14:23
Very nice system, Steve ! :) I hope to be able to listen to it one day ! ;)
You'll be very welcome Dimitri.
Steve Toy
05-06-2010, 14:33
Looking good, Steve (since we tidied it up! ;))
The heavily-modified Eikos CD player Steve's currently borrowing from Anthony is, quite frankly, astonishing and without doubt one of the best CDPs I've ever heard :eek:
It is a shining example of what red book CD is capable of when done properly. In the areas where it excels (pin-point timing accuracy, seductive phrasing of vocals, and an almost uncanny sync-locking of temporal shifts within music), amongst many other of its sonic attributes, it is *THE* best I've heard. I could happily live with this player myself.
Steve's system now, in terms of sheer musical communication and emotional involvement, is one of best I've had the pleasure to listen to, and is testament to what can be achieved with serious attention to detail in terms of set-up, and judicious ancillary and equipment selection. Everything synergises together so well to create spine-tingling drama with all genres of music....
Once he gets a decent pair of speakers, it'll be really good!!! :lol: :lol:
Only kidding - the Hecos are excellent for the money. They offer superb 'bang for your buck' (and are pretty transparent, too), but in the final analysis are somewhat outclassed by the outstanding source and control components upstream. Steve is however fully aware of this.
When he attends to that (almost) final part of the jigsaw, then his system will truly deserve the title of 'AOS Reference' :cool:
Regarding the CD player it is its almost unique ability to sync-lock different strands of music, tying in backing instruments, percussion, especially high-hats and tambourines with the rest that makes it so special. I don't need a side-by-side comparison with a Caiman to know that the Caiman is a good DAC but to compare it with the Eikos would be like comparing Becks Vier with Augustiner.
Some of us can recognise sonic/musical characteristics of components and hold the impression in our heads for more than five minutes. :mental:
Some of us can't and these tend to be the most vociferous sceptics.... :rolleyes:
I'm pleased that the rest of my system isn't letting the side down and I hope that when my DAC is ready, in conjunction with my transport, it will be at least nearly as good.
Regarding my speakers there are still lots of things I'd rather upgrade first like adding Furetech Rhodium plugs to the Mark Grant mains leads. I do really like what my speakers do in this particular room.
Snoopdog
06-06-2010, 11:24
Looking good Steve!
The MusicWorks ReFlex block does respond well to being raised off the ground as you have found. I have heard it on top of Stillpoints Component stands and MusicWorks ReJig 15mm supports and the extra resonance control is very beneficial.
For the most economical approach, the ReJig supports are well worth it (I have them under my MIT cable boxes and turntable power supply/controller) or if, as in your case, you can spare a shelf on the main equipment stand.
Steve Toy
09-07-2010, 01:42
I'm pleased that the rest of my system isn't letting the side down and I hope that when my DAC is ready, in conjunction with my transport, it will be at least nearly as good.
That particular project is now scrapped at least until I'm ready for PC audio. I'm keeping the Eikos. Why? Because it's a giant-slayer.
I just need a buyer for the Bel Canto - one of the finest CD transports around and a decent player in its own right.
Your new player does look suitably big and (dare I say) manly. Ok... and it also fits on
the table so that's all good so far. Now you just need a TT something big I would think.
Steve Toy
09-07-2010, 07:23
If I had a turntable it would go on a separate stand. The top shelf of the QS Ref rack has additional decoupling for source components. I would not wish to degrade the performance of this player, which TBH rivals just about every turntable out there.
I don't have many records and what few I have are in a cupboard somewhere at my parents' house.
Rare Bird
09-07-2010, 07:59
Whats that under the CDP?
I bet your finding it hard going back to a standard drawer/tray after the Bel Canto..
Techno Commander
09-07-2010, 09:00
Did I spot a mains lead with a 13A plug on each end?
Rare Bird
09-07-2010, 11:15
Did I spot a mains lead with a 13A plug on each end?
O my god all that extra impedance on the mains line caused by a unnessisary set of contacts :lol:
Techno Commander
09-07-2010, 11:45
I was more worried about having live pins if you unplugged the wrong end.
Steve Toy
09-07-2010, 12:43
This system is a safety-first system. The voltages going into the preamp are rather high too from its own dedicated PSU but the incoming plug is female.
Apart from that all incoming plugs are either low voltages or IECs.
Techno Commander
09-07-2010, 14:04
I was looking at the grey lead which appears to go from the wall socket and is plugged into the top of the distro unit under the preamp.
Steve Toy
09-07-2010, 14:45
That lead is hard-wired into the block but can be swapped for an IEC plug arrangement by Audio Works.
It is a CE product as are the AnthonyTD/AOS flilter and PSU for the pre.
Techno Commander
09-07-2010, 15:27
I see, it just looked like another 13A plug on that end. :)
Rare Bird
11-07-2010, 06:46
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4953/systemjune10002.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/systemjune10002.jpg/)
Can anyone run through the details of the left hand side units especially the two black boxes at the back..Marco maybe as Toyster likes ignoring PM's as per norm.
Hi Andre,
I'm not 100% sure... The two black boxes power the Eikos CDP, dunno what the one in the middle is, but the one at the front is Anthony's mains filter.
It's unusual for Steve not to answer PMs.... It'll probably be to do with him finding it difficult to access them on his phone from his taxi. He always asks me to email him instead for that reason.
Anyway, I'm sure he'll clear things up when he sees this :)
Marco.
I'm worried that the right hand block is placed directly under the preamp, but maybe the desire to have the cables freely looped everywhere overides this?
Rare Bird
11-07-2010, 09:53
I'm worried that the right hand block is placed directly under the preamp, but maybe the desire to have the cables freely looped everywhere overides this?
Why does he need the extension block when he has enough spare outlets on the wall, surely the block is unessisary impedance on the mains he could do without.the idea is to cut contacts down surely
Steve Toy
11-07-2010, 13:09
Andre, sorry not to get back to you sooner but replies are limited in scope from my phone, especially PMs. I meant to reply today but saw this.
The current setup was arrived at through extensive listening both alone and with Marco.
After the dedicated mains was installed the first thing we did was to plug everything directly into the wall for the reasons you state. Immediately I noticed a bigger, bolder sound than before the dedicated mains was installed but also quite an unpleasant bloom in the bass that started to irritate rather quickly.
I thought at this stage that directly plugging everything into the wall was perhaps a double-edged sword. Yes, the supply impedance is lower with this arrangement but also vibrations from the speakers into the wall are now more readily travelling along those mains cables and back into the kit. This is the theory but what would we actually hear in practice?
We then plugged everything back into the block and plugged the block into the wall and the improvement was immediate and was not subtle either. There was no loss of dynamics whatsoever. If anything, removing a source of time smear, dynamics were improved. In addition, the bass started and either stopped or decayed as per the recording, hit the right note (i.e. there was more than one note) and bass had texture. Moreover, the rest of the frequency range was more insightful too with more texture, better harmonic structure of notes and improved timing.
This result was subsequently repeated at Marco's and at Ian Walkers. OK, the mains block I use is specifically designed to reduce the effects of microphony (layered acrylic construction plus its shape) so perhaps the difference was greater in my setup but the results were nevertheless consistent.
When two theories seem to contradict each other (microphony versus impedance) you have to do a bit of listening and you have to believe what your ears tell you or you'll miss out on something that could make your music listening more enjoyable perhaps without spending a single penny more, as was the case here. :)
Placing the block on the shelf directly under the preamp came later (several weeks later) and this seemed to defy much in the way of conventional wisdom but we thought we'd try it anyway, it was Marco's idea :idea:
First of all I ensured that the longest rods separated the shelf with the preamp from that supporting the block. Bear in mind also that there is no power supply inside the preamp, that is on the shelf to the left, second from the front. Also each shelf is decoupled from the one above with small aluminium spacing rings at the point that the rod is inserted into the next and where the shelf actually sits.
Anyway, it was moved and we pressed play. It was a no-brainer. There was no extra hum coming through the speakers. If anything, background noise was quiter and the noise floor dropped giving a more focussed and detailed rendition of the music.
In summary, we've first reduced vibration coming back in via the walls along the mains cables and now we've reduced it coming in via the floor. OK, you can scoff and scorn and I know a few will, but the differences were not subtle. You've gt a choice here: believe what I'm saying or, if this conflicts with your own somewhat untested belief set, go with that. I won't lose any sleep over it and it's my system which won't sound any worse for it. :p
You can take a horse to water...
OK, logistics.
Block to the left supports in order from front to back:-
1) Mains filter plugged into socket 1 of the block under the preamp (yes we experimented with the order of plugging things into the block. We also experimented with plugging the filter directly into the wall given that it is a block in its own right and it's sitting on an acrylic shelf...)
2) Preamp PSU wich is plugged into socket 2 of the block under the preamp.
3) and 4) PSUs daisy-chained to the Eikos CD player and plugged into the right-hand socket of the filter at the front. The left-hand socket of the filter is for the power lead going directly into the player itself. This powers the transport and display to the CD player.
Yes we experimented with the order in which we plugged the CD player leads into the filter and yes there was a difference, albeit a subtle one! :eek:
This kind of fastidious setup based on listening and not idle theory is a ball-ache on your own, especially when you just want to kick back and enjoy your tunes, but with like-minded task-master of a friend :eyebrows: to help you you'll get there and will enjoy your tunes more afterwards.
Satisfaction guaranteed! :)
Rare Bird
11-07-2010, 15:36
Thank Steve, i thought for a min you'd got der grumps on with me ;)
It was the centre white & rear black boxes i was intrested in but now i know what they are thanks.. Re: Filters, i prefer the multi clamping parallel (shunt) type devices (No chokes) you stick in your spare outlet.
Steve Toy
11-07-2010, 15:57
I'd got no reason to have the grumps with you Andre. Your questions were genuine enough :)
Hmm, that does look like a really nice set up Steve.
Not over the top with regard to components and/or unnecessary Watt power and obvious care taken over the power supply; something I seriously miss in my current place. I had a dedicated mains supply and a filter per unit in my old place and despite what some might say; clean, adequate power makes a difference.
I think I’ve looked at most of the systems on display here now and yours is the only one that I’ve been at all curious about.
I would love to hear what my speakers sounded like fed by your system.
I must admit, I’m getting very curious about these hand built copper cased valve amps. I believe Marco has one (?) I’ve been seriously considering looking into an integrated valve amp for my file based set up.
Wow, there sure seem to be a lot of shiny mains leads, distribution blocks and mains smoothing things - good job you only have one source! ;)
I don't think Steve is with us any more, or at least he hasn't visited for almost two months. I very nearly went for the Heco Celan 700 speakers that Steve uses, though I suspect in the calibre of Steve's system now they are the weakest link ("goodbye, I'll sell them to you for £100, Alex") - they would fit right in with my modest setup, I suspect.
He still posts on pfm (mostly about cables and mains leads not surprisingly) - I will tease him there :).
(I doubt he has gone forever though)
I don't think Steve is with us any more, or at least he hasn't visited for almost two months. I very nearly went for the Heco Celan 700 speakers that Steve uses, though I suspect in the calibre of Steve's system now they are the weakest link ("goodbye, I'll sell them to you for £100, Alex") - they would fit right in with my modest setup, I suspect.
Hi Alex,
Ummm, a point of contention (politely I hope) between Steve and me, but you'll find the Celans totally the opposite of your speakers Alex. The biggest part of any passive speaker to get anywhere near correct is the crossover, both bass to mid in three ways and the upper mid to tweeter, which is right where our hearing is at its most sensitive. Steve obviously likes the assertive approach up top, whereas I find the more restrained (and "neutral") BBC version. In an ideal situation with most "domestic" sized speakers and monitors is to go active, where decent powered filters/phase correction cures most of these problems at a stroke.
In my views on the above, manically getting the cables dressed, equipment supportd on ghastly flimsy-looking perspex racks and the mains isolated etc is a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted, since distortion in the speakers will be hundreds of times more intrusive than hundreds of quids worth of mains leads and fancy filter boxes. Trouble is with some of these speakers, going to something that is properly behaved with no phasey harshness emphasising "deeeeetail," sounds bland and uninteresting until one has had a re-adjustment period.
When you've heard some Harbeths, you'll understand what I mean :)
I would tend to agree with Dave.
However, I would say that one of the reasons Steve's system works so well is because of his fastidious attention to detail in terms of set up. This stuff is fundamental, Dave, and one day the penny will drop (probably when you hear my system, which is equally as fastidiously set-up, but in a different way), trust me! ;)
Steve's system upstream of the Hecos is extremely good, but the Hecos just aren't my cup of tea at all, and when I heard them again last weekend at the Manchester show on the end of Guy's (equally superb system upstream) in the Puresound room, it simply served to confirm what I don't like about them, which I'll get to in a minute.
Ok, the positives are:
Superb material value for money - for (what is it) £1300? You get a lot of speaker inside high-quality, very inert, cabinets built in China. The drive units though I believe are German (related to the Magnat brand), and tweeters aside, are very good.
They're fairly transparent for the price (especially in the midrange) and deliver a very 'big' and 'impressive', if somewhat 'forward' sound.
The negatives are:
Rather 'boom n tizz', in the (affordable) German speaker tradition, with the bass whilst being articulate and deep, is also rather 'phat' and boomy (one of the reasons why I dislike multiple arrays of small drive units is because they're always having to work so hard to produce a 'big' sound).
The tweeter is, quite frankly, dreadful, and fizzes away and spits at you at the merest hint of a bad recording, and this in my view, is where the costs have mainly been cut.
In terms of Steve's system, his electronics have totally outgrown his speakers to the point that they are now a severe bottleneck, and if he gets some Tannoys or Cabasse, as he's hinted at, musically, it'll be like opening up a dam, when the Hecos are finally no longer strangling his otherwise very capable system components.
So to summarise the Hecos:
Great material value for money, and would be ideal for use in a system that sounds a little lightweight and perhaps needs pepping up a bit (which is the complete opposite of what's required by Steve's current equipment), particularly if you have a penchant for a 'bass thump' to underpin the likes of dance music and reggae.
They can be huge fun with the right music, but perhaps only for a couple hours at a time before reaching for the Rennies! ;)
Marco.
I would respecfully argue that if the system NEEDS all this foo-faff to work at all, then there's something severely wrong. If you'd bought some big ATC actives Marco, you'd have found a great and superior sound just by plonking them down, plugging in and switching on :gig:
After the dedicated mains was installed the first thing we did was to plug everything directly into the wall for the reasons you state. Immediately I noticed a bigger, bolder sound than before the dedicated mains was installed but also quite an unpleasant bloom in the bass that started to irritate rather quickly.
You see, for me, I would have stopped there and looked at speaker positioning instead of the mains. I'm not vociferously anti mains treatment - it's just that, so far, I haven't heard anything to persuade me that the results are actually beneficial. However, if it works for others I don't have an issue with that - each to their own.
_____________________________________________
Blimey, you are a fast typist Marco! Rather a good description of the Heco's and an opinion I largely share (unfortunately). I can see why Guy distributes them, they are nicely made and technically suit his other products well. However, in terms of sound quality I don't think they are in the same league as his amplification.
I would have to strongly disagree with you there, Mark.
Each to their own, though :)
Marco.
I would respecfully argue that if the system NEEDS all this foo-faff to work at all, then there's something severely wrong. If you'd bought some big ATC actives Marco, you'd have found a great and superior sound just by plonking them down, plugging in and switching on :gig:
{COUGH} BULLSHIT! ;)
It's not about getting a system to "work at all" - it'll still switch on and make a noise sat on the floor and with cheapo mains leads attached. It's about turning that noise into believable music, which is a different matter entirely!!
If your wife ever allows you to get your system out of that old wooden cabinet and onto a proper equipment support, you might hear what I'm talking about :ner:
Marco.
I would have to strongly disagree with you there, Mark.
Each to their own, though :)
Marco.
Sorry Marco, in what respect - with regard to mains cables and filters?
I haven't heard the more recent offerings, so I remain open to persuasion (I'm not so open to having mains cables looped all over the place though ;))
Yep. Our experiences of course are both valid, but the likes of the Tube Distinctions mains filter and Furutech-modfied Mark Grant mains leads I'm using, have made quite a massive improvement to my system.
However, it's probably best to add them as the 'icing on the cake' of an already well-sorted set-up, than throwing loads of money at this type of thing and not enough in other more important areas first :)
Marco.
Hmm...new speakers time for Steven then ;)
Blimey, you are a fast typist Marco! Rather a good description of the Heco's and an opinion I largely share (unfortunately). I can see why Guy distributes them, they are nicely made and technically suit his other products well. However, in terms of sound quality I don't think they are in the same league as his amplification.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell! :)
Yes I type fast... If I didn't, with length of some of my posts, I'd be at it all day! ;)
Marco.
It's obvious from the last few posts and the dismissal of Mark's very valid point regarding speaker positioning that we're still in the position of looking at the least important thing to correct a major problem. If plugging everything into the wall, away from mains conditioners and fancy distribution blocks causes a bass problem, then it's the speaker/room interface most likely causing the problem - a passive speaker with deliberately under-damped bass contributing to the "oom-pah" balance Marco mentioned. These speakers aren't monitors, so are tailored to a market taste for such as sound. A more absorbant room construction (wood-frame as many US properties are) would have minimised this problem too. To suggest that "purely" sitting the stuff on a ghastly and hideously overpriced flimsy construction and adding mains filters and fancy leads with whatever they're doing would cure a speaker/room problem is fraught with danger frankly.
Sorry Marco, you MUST get the fundamentals right first before tweaking the finer points so severely. Once the fundamentals are correct, the fine details become just that - finer details!
I'm not bullish enough to bang on as some of you here, but so many times over the last two years I've had to wonder what my career really meant, as so much of what I've heard first hand has been poo-poohed by the snake oil and fairy-dust brigade. I'm not at all saying that these things make not a jot of difference, of course they do - to a degree - but I've heard enough systems that are absolutely marvellous (Quad ones for example) when wired with standard commercial mains wires, good but not outrageous interconnects and 56 strand instrument wire for speaker leads. So many of the highly tweaky systems I've heard have been tense to the point of an electronic nervous breakdown (and that goes for many of Jimmy Hughes' systems over the years), the tiniest thing wrong upsetting the sonic balance.
As for racks, what's wrong with the cabinet I'm using? I don't play at deafening levels any more and the floor is concrete, so no vibration issues there. Walloping the side of same when playing LP's over headphones gives no feedback at all through to the stylus and moving the cables around makes not a jot of difference - I have tried to separate mains leads from the signal leads by a good few inches though with stick-on hooks at the open rear of the cabinet. If I need to "upgrade" anything it would be to some Spendor SP1's which take the fundamentals of mine and improve them in nearly all respects, measurably and audibly. I cannot contemplate Harbeth HL's as they're too fugly for our sitting room (been there and done that with some old HL5's I used to own, much as I loved 'em once the bass was sorted).
So there :ner:
Dave,
To suggest that "purely" sitting the stuff on a ghastly and hideously overpriced flimsy construction and adding mains filters and fancy leads with whatever they're doing would cure a speaker/room problem is fraught with danger frankly.
Where did I say that?? You need to start reading what I'm writing properly before jumping in feet first and filling in the blanks with your age-old (and seemingly inflexible) belief set!! :doh: :ner:
I never mentioned speaker/room interaction. Yes, that's also fundamental, and comes WAY before anything else - agreed.
What I ACTUALLY said, however, was that isolating your equipment properly from the effects of the environment it lives in, and using good quality mains leads designed for audio purposes, is also fundamental to achieving top-notch sonic performance from a system, but in a different way, so do please pay attention at the back of the class! ;)
Steve's speakers are in the best position possible for the layout of his room and for the considerations of his wife, whom he also has to share the room with.
Therefore short of applying room treatment materials, he is unable to do any more in terms of speaker/room positioning or tuning the response of his system to the characteristics of his room. That is why he has quite rightly optimised the next most important considerations in the chain after the equipment itself (to a degree), which have already been mentioned.
The sonic artefacts I described in relation to the Hecos are almost entirely due to how they have been voiced with the drive units chosen.
Marco.
You see, I would look at room tuning before the mains (though I can certainly understand why others would not). When I built myself some room treatment panels I was very pleased with the results - even my ex-wife thought they looked rather cool (when she saw them a few months ago). However, I did build them to fit in with the decor of the room and many commercial systems are not very aesthetically pleasing.
(you OK Dave - you seem a bit out of sorts this morning?)
You see, I would look at room tuning before the mains...
Ideally one would, as that approach makes the most sense :)
However, few of us live in an ideal world, and so it's easier to 'sort' the mains with mains leads and filters, etc, than it is to 'sort' the room, particularly if your wife wants to watch the TV (which lives along with a large sofa at the other end of Steve's room), and therefore there's only one place where the speakers can go ;)
Marco.
(you OK Dave - you seem a bit out of sorts this morning?)
Yes, he does seem rather unusually 'confrontational'... Hope the old chap is ok.
Marco.
Yes, I entirely accept that domestic considerations often mitigate against room treatment (and/or ideal speaker positioning).
Oh well, better do some work I guess :(.
Oh dear, sorry everyone, I should learn not to post when the wine is flowing, so maybe I'll impose a 6pm watershed on myself! OK, Heco Celan's are off the shortlist then! I don't think I'd better comment on anything else :eyebrows: I will be tidying up my "rats nest" though soon, will be interesting to see if I can hear a difference...
Alex,
Lol... Roughly what budget do you think you'll have when the time comes to change your speakers, and what type of sound do you like - also, how is your system 'voiced' at present?
Is it quite lush sounding, the complete opposite, or somewhere in the middle? What are the sonic characteristics and specifications of your amp?
Once I know that info, I should then be able to offer you an appropriate recommendation :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco - I'll save it for another thread and another day, though, as I'm not really in a rush and to be honest really do rate my cheapo AE's in the context of everything else - but as Dave who heard them recently suggested they could be the area that would benefit from improving, which on paper at least I agree with (they were about £350 I think 7 years ago, in the context of an £750 CD Player and around £700 for the amp.) I'd probably be looking at £5-600, possibly second hand - but then the other option is to look at going to the next step with other components too, and making a "keep forever" system - but just at the moment, with lots of bills and Christmas on the horizon it is all just pipe dreams!
Marco, I'm not as narrow minded as you suggest. I've BEEN down this route when some of you were still at high-school and no how subtle these effects are when compared to fundamental flaws in the gear itself, especially the speakers.
If the speakers are so underdamped in the bass that they set off room modes, then CHANGE THE BLEEDIN' SPEAKERS ffs. With Steve's system, some tannoy bleedin' Devons would have been amazing IMO as a quick thought.
Me below par? You mean, not as "subservient" as usual? Well, maybe not - apologies. Sometimes, I get rather cross when my experiences are challenged by people who only know one side of the coin ;)
I have some study to do. Essay writing - should be good at that...........;)
Me below par? You mean, not as "subservient" as usual? Well, maybe not - apologies. Sometimes, I get rather cross when my experiences are challenged by people who only know one side of the coin ;)
No need to be subservient Dave, it's just that you are normally pretty mild mannered (and no harm in that). - as long as you are OK.
Dave, you were the one who initiated the 'challenging', me old son - scroll back and see.
What you don't like is when you rather 'robustly' challenge my experiences, and I return the compliment.... Observe your post #37, which set the tone of this current discussion. If you dish it out, then you have to take it in return ;)
Sometimes, I get rather cross when my experiences are challenged by people who only know one side of the coin...
Ditto applies to my equally valid experiences. You sometimes have a very selective memory during these debates!
Marco.
You see, I would look at room tuning before the mains
That's the first thing I did. The mains came second :)
Right, if you’ve all finished :eyebrows:
Has Steve left the forum?
If you should read this Steve, apart from being an admirer of your minimalist system I would be interested in knowing what’s inside your power conditioner.
They can be huge fun with the right music, but perhaps only for a couple hours at a time before reaching for the Rennies! ;)
Marco.
If you remember correctly,it wasn't the Rennies I reached for,but some Ibuprofen.
I found the sound so bright and shrill it nearly took the enamel off my teeth.
Each to their own,but I could certainly not live with that sound.
It seems unlikely, to me, that Steve has left the forum because, as far as I am aware, he owns it - and Marco chief administrates it (happy to be corrected though).
Things have changed Mark.. Look on RD's forum for a partial explanation.
I suppose we all have selective memories sometimes, but I really try not to have in the audio ones... Anyway, enough have commented on the Celan's character for me to add any more :peace:
Rare Bird
22-10-2010, 14:57
Rather 'boom n tizz', in the (affordable) German speaker tradition, with the bass whilst being articulate and deep, is also rather 'phat' and boomy (one of the reasons why I dislike multiple arrays of small drive units is because they're always having to work so hard to produce a 'big' sound).
Well over a dislike for a certain German speaker which i'll not mention. A German friend awhile back told me that Germans have different ears to the brits! :scratch:
The Vinyl Adventure
22-10-2010, 15:10
i must have german ears ... i have dangly ear lobes ... i wonder if that is common to germans ears
If I was going to change anything in Steve’s system it would be to add a turntable Brinkmann Bardo
(a Clearaudio TT isn’t going to work for Steve as he already has a critical mass of acrylic)
and swap the tall silver speakers for a good quality two way stand mount speaker.
Things have changed Mark.. Look on RD's forum for a partial explanation.
I suppose we all have selective memories sometimes, but I really try not to have in the audio ones... Anyway, enough have commented on the Celan's character for me to add any more :peace:
Dave, I don't involve myself with that forum, or the individual who runs it. To be honest, I find it unlikely that any information of value has been posted - but if you say so, I take your word on it.
anthonyTD
22-10-2010, 19:54
hi mark,
Steve [toy] has indeed left, marco now owns AOS outright and has done for some time, Steve probably still reads the comings and goings here from time to time so hopefully he will have read all your comments and grinned to himself as he puts his feet up and spins another tune!:)
anthony,TD...
It seems unlikely, to me, that Steve has left the forum because, as far as I am aware, he owns it - and Marco chief administrates it (happy to be corrected though).
AOS was initially started up by 3 equal partners, myself, Steve Toy and Rob (Filterlab). Steve Toy was never the sole owner of AOS at any stage. Steve has now left to do his own thing and is no longer part of AOS.
On that note, let's get back on topic as Steve no longer has a right of reply.
Marco
Apologies for any misunderstanding - now corrected, many thanks.
Ali Tait
22-10-2010, 20:29
Indeed? I wasn't aware of that Marco,was there a falling out?
Is Steve banned, I just thought he was taking a short hiatus, anyway who is going to uphold our flat earth principles now ?
You might want to start looking for a replacement and it’s not going to be easy filling those 'pish catchers' (or it might be !)
I don't think you can be a true knight for Flat Earth principles unless you turn away from the demonic CD and accept LP as the one true source.
I don't think you can be a true knight for Flat Earth principles unless you turn away from the demonic CD and accept LP as the one true source.
:doh:
:eek:
:D
C'mon Dave, we all know CD has no place in a 'proper' Hi-Fi system ;).
Rare Bird
23-10-2010, 17:08
:lol:
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