Wilson Benesch speakers

[Mikeandvan]

Been looking at a pair of WB Actors, floor standing speakers. Is there a general style to the WB sound? I find speakers can make some of the biggest differences to a hifi set up. I tried Spendors twice and hated them, the soundstage was small, music had no 'body', that was monitors and floorstanders so the sound signature clearly cuts across all ranges. Don't wanna make the same mistake again. Currently use Chario Syntars, but while I like them and the downward firing bass port suits my room, I wonder what a bigger more expensive speaker would do for my set up. At the same time I don't want to excite the harsh high frequencies my listening rooms acoustics seem to possess.

[hifi_dave]

WB are bright. Highlighting information by accentuating the HF. IMO of course.

[The Black Adder]

They can be bright. I agree. Very good overall though.

I had some The Arc speakers once. They sounded really good and I loved them.

Best amp I ran with them was a Densen.

So, they are great but synergy is paramount.

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[Mikeandvan]

Thanks, I heard they were bright, best avoided may'be.

[The Black Adder]

I wouldn't say avoid. They are very nice speakers, expensive though.

Like all speakers you need to match them properly with whats on the other end. :)

[Mikeandvan]

I wouldn't say avoid. They are very nice speakers, expensive though.

Like all speakers you need to match them properly with whats on the other end. :)

Well, my amps are Quad 909 + Croft 25, so quite suitable I'd guess, thing is even with those amps and my current speakers - Chario Syntar, my set up still produces quite unpleasant sibilance in the higher frequencies, I just think my listening rooms acoustics is pants and there's nowt I can do about it.

[hifinutt]

I was listening to the wb actors recently with a valve pre and ss/hybrid amps. Not at all bright in this set up. Very gentle really and non fatiguing

[AJSki2fly]

Mike, I had a pair of WB ARCs, they were lovely not what I would call bright, but very accurate, if you put a bad signal/recording in them then that is what you got. I used them with 300b SET amp. I should have kept them but moved them on to upgrade other parts. The Actors are an older design and may be more forgiving however I have seen a review saying they sound great but downside is very unforgiving of bad CD or Vinyl. So be prepared to hear what you put on warts and all.

[hifi_dave]

Well, my amps are Quad 909 + Croft 25, so quite suitable I'd guess, thing is even with those amps and my current speakers - Chario Syntar, my set up still produces quite unpleasant sibilance in the higher frequencies, I just think my listening rooms acoustics is pants and there's nowt I can do about it.

If the very mellow Syntars produce "unpleasant sibilance", there is something else going on.

[ovlov854]

The most obvious answer............go listen
There is a pair for sale in your area. Take your source and your I/C and go and listen

[Lurch]

Having had QED XT40 SCs, I would say that they are the main culprit for your harsh treble, VD 4mm hifi series would be much better, or possibly some Audioquest Indigo or Jade.
If the Actors your looking at are the ones on wigwam, then Chris (GLB) would be more than happy for you to go for an audition, and in all likely hood let you have them to listen in your room.
I had them here a couple of weeks back for the playroom at by BO, and they're definitely not bright.

[Mr. C]

IMHO the ARC's are the best speakers WB made paired with a good fast tight sub a greats set up.

Having had many pairs pass through over the years including owning the Bishops (lol) they are over priced and under perform.

Last year we had a pair of £25K Actors?? with the fancy tweeters etc. Never have I been so disappointed in a so called high end speaker, it was totally humiliated by a pair of stand mounts at under half the price. YMMV

[AJSki2fly]

IMHO the ARC's are the best speakers WB made paired with a good fast tight sub a greats set up.

Having had many pairs pass through over the years including owning the Bishops (lol) they are over priced and under perform.

Last year we had a pair of £25K Actors?? with the fancy tweeters etc. Never have I been so disappointed in a so called high end speaker, it was totally humiliated by a pair of stand mounts at under half the price. YMMV

Vectors are also good, but whether double the price against ARC's with a good sub is questionable, the manufacturer of my previous Mono block 300B's used ARC's to demo them so must say something about them.

[Mikeandvan]

The most obvious answer............go listen
There is a pair for sale in your area. Take your source and your I/C and go and listen
I've a feeling its my listening room that is producing the problems.

[Mikeandvan]

Having had QED XT40 SCs, I would say that they are the main culprit for your harsh treble, VD 4mm hifi series would be much better, or possibly some Audioquest Indigo or Jade.
If the Actors your looking at are the ones on wigwam, then Chris (GLB) would be more than happy for you to go for an audition, and in all likely hood let you have them to listen in your room.
I had them here a couple of weeks back for the playroom at by BO, and they're definitely not bright.

Funny innit, somebody recommended the QED to tame brightness!!

[Mikeandvan]

Having had QED XT40 SCs, I would say that they are the main culprit for your harsh treble, VD 4mm hifi series would be much better, or possibly some Audioquest Indigo or Jade.
If the Actors your looking at are the ones on wigwam, then Chris (GLB) would be more than happy for you to go for an audition, and in all likely hood let you have them to listen in your room.
I had them here a couple of weeks back for the playroom at by BO, and they're definitely not bright.

Hi John, I might ask him nicely then.

[mido]

I had a pair of Arc standmounts for a while.

I did feel the tonal balance was a little tipped towards the higher frequencies, but I wouldn't say they were bright.

I found them a little clinical and cold, however. Extremely detailed, but a little mechanical sounding if that makes sense.

[Macca]

I've a feeling its my listening room that is producing the problems.

Rooms can have a big effect but they don't produce harshness or sibiliance. I'd give another speaker cable a go, QED speaker cables are all weird in some way or another apart from the original 79 strand. It's also a lot cheaper than changing speakers.

[fatmarley]

As others have said, I'd look at replacing the cables. Flashback rca cables sound neutral to me. I use Talk cable 3.1 speaker cable because it's cheap and does the job. I've tried a few audiophile cables in the past and they all seemed to add something, but not in a good way. I'm sure there are some good ones but it seems silly to spend lots of money on a cable when your equipment is full of inductors, voice coils and circuit board tracks that are just bog standard copper.

[RobbieGong]

Rooms can have a big effect but they don't produce harshness or sibiliance. I'd give another speaker cable a go, QED speaker cables are all weird in some way or another apart from the original 79 strand. It's also a lot cheaper than changing speakers.

Ive had three or four of the QEDs over the years amongst other cables.

The Silver Spiral being the best by far and not 'weird' in anyway, far from it :D

[Mikeandvan]

Rooms can have a big effect but they don't produce harshness or sibiliance. I'd give another speaker cable a go, QED speaker cables are all weird in some way or another apart from the original 79 strand. It's also a lot cheaper than changing speakers.

In what ways do rooms affect the sound then?

[Mikeandvan]

IME when certain brands/models come with a signature sound it rings true. I tried Spendor monitors and floorstanders and couldn't get over how lifeless the sound was, with very little body at all. Likewise Royd Minstrels were a joke. The best experience I've had so far with brands has been Quad, the 306 and 909, and also Epos -the ES11.

[Macca]

In what ways do rooms affect the sound then?

http://darkroommastering.com/blog/room-acoustics-and-sound-treatment/

[Mikeandvan]

http://darkroommastering.com/blog/room-acoustics-and-sound-treatment/

Thanks, I think a problem with my listening room is that its split in two, kitchen and lounge. I rent, but I'm considering moving just to have more options hifi wise. I'm in a flat now, the good thing is never get complaints from neighbours about playing music, bad thing is well documented in this forum, awful room acoustics!!

[Mikeandvan]

Having had QED XT40 SCs, I would say that they are the main culprit for your harsh treble, VD 4mm hifi series would be much better, or possibly some Audioquest Indigo or Jade.
If the Actors your looking at are the ones on wigwam, then Chris (GLB) would be more than happy for you to go for an audition, and in all likely hood let you have them to listen in your room.
I had them here a couple of weeks back for the playroom at by BO, and they're definitely not bright.
Is this the Van damme stuff you mean? I saw the thread on the Wam comparing it to QED.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Van-Damme-Speaker-Cables-Hi-Fi-Series-2x-4mm-2x-4m-A-Pair-Terminated/122274751498?epid=2256116298&hash=item1c7824a40a:g:C~UAAOSwRQlXclf8

[fatmarley]

I found the Van damme blue a bit soft sounding.
Although I haven't heard it, I'd try hifi series that's in the eBay link. You could always send it back if you're not happy.

[Lawrence001]

Had some VD hifi in my system a few weeks and not looked back. I'm sure other cables will have a bit more of this or a bit less of that, but it sounds just fine to me.

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[Barry]

I have use Van Damme 4mm2 Blue as well as the 6mm2 cable with clear outer insulation. Both are fine, as is IMO the original QED 79 strand cable, but I have to say that in all cases the cable lengths I use are 1 metre or less through using monoblock power amps located directly behind each speaker.

I have also used Fisual 'Hollywood' cable, but wouldn't recommend it as it is a PITA to work with, with (to my ears) no obvious benefit.

[Mikeandvan]

I'll give the VD a try then, quite cheap anyway.

[Mikeandvan]

The VD certainly makes a difference, the edge has gone off screechy rock records, but so has some insight, and clarity. Early days but overall more listenable I think, yet still my speakers emit a nasally sound. I'll give it a week then switch back to the QED and see which I prefer, or whether I need to change something else, can't help thinking overall my system sounds rather flat.

[fatmarley]

The VD certainly makes a difference, the edge has gone off screechy rock records, but so has some insight, and clarity. Early days but overall more listenable I think, yet still my speakers emit a nasally sound. I'll give it a week then switch back to the QED and see which I prefer, or whether I need to change something else, can't help thinking overall my system sounds rather flat.

I think you could write a book about your hifi journey.
Shame you live so far away, because you desperately need someone to bring a boot load of kit round to sort your problem.

[Lawrence001]

I'm not familiar with vinyl setups, or Quad amps, enough to comment on that but I'd certainly say, from looking at Mike's signature, that on the digital side there are improvements that could be made for relatively little outlay. Also what valves are in the Croft?

Bake off at Mike's?? [emoji16]

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[Mikeandvan]

I think you could write a book about your hifi journey.
Shame you live so far away, because you desperately need someone to bring a boot load of kit round to sort your problem.
Well looking at other threads it seems some folk have changed hifi components a lot more than me! But yeh would be good to listen to other kit without having to buy it first!!

[Mikeandvan]

I'm not familiar with vinyl setups, or Quad amps, enough to comment on that but I'd certainly say, from looking at Mike's signature, that on the digital side there are improvements that could be made for relatively little outlay. Also what valves are in the Croft?

Bake off at Mike's?? [emoji16]

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Hi Lawrence, The Croft was recently given the once over by Alan firebottle, and made a little mod that improved dynamics. I'm not sure what valves it contains, but I did wonder about changing them, and what effect that would produce. I'm really not sure how good my Mission pcm 7000 is either, I am always on the lookout for one of the super Sony ES cdps, or many of the other Jap offerings from the 90s by Marantz, Pioneer etc etc....Don't know too many AOS members locally, but I think the Wam has some, will have to investigate

[Lawrence001]

Hi Lawrence, The Croft was recently given the once over by Alan firebottle, and made a little mod that improved dynamics. I'm not sure what valves it contains, but I did wonder about changing them, and what effect that would produce. I'm really not sure how good my Mission pcm 7000 is either, I am always on the lookout for one of the super Sony ES cdps, or many of the other Jap offerings from the 90s by Marantz, Pioneer etc etc....Don't know too many AOS members locally, but I think the Wam has some, will have to investigateI'm not going to pass judgement on Alan's work which is always high quality, but from my experience with "improved" speed and dynamics in general, it often introduces other elements which are not to my taste. Eg. I couldn't live for a week with a Naim system and small bookshelf speakers which were the epitomy of the PRaT movement of the 80s. I've often found that such system changes include tipping the balance from the lower frequencies to the higher for perceived improvements in pace which, while being to many people's tastes, are not to mine. Have you noticed the issues you are having since the Croft was modified or has it always been there?

I would be interested to see some pics of the valves in the Croft. I know Glenn voices his standard amps to match reasonably priced and common valves which assures the buyer of cheap replacements later down the line. I think they used to be JJs a few years ago, then he seems to have moved on to Edicron but don't quote me on that. Sometimes putting better valves in a Croft can make it sound worse due to the voicing that Glenn gives it to match the valves he used at the time.

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[Firebottle]

I'm not going to pass judgement on Alan's work which is always high quality, but from my experience with "improved" speed and dynamics in general, it often introduces other elements which are not to my taste.

---
Have you noticed the issues you are having since the Croft was modified or has it always been there?


Hi Laurence, thanks for the vote of confidence :thumbsup:
When I recommend or make modifications it is almost always to give a better performance but not 'improved speed'. In this case the circuit was limited in its dynamics due to it being at the budget end of the Croft line. Re-figuring the circuit made a good improvement but not in any way introducing other limitations.

I believe Mike was having the issues before any modifications were made :)

[Lawrence001]

Hi Laurence, thanks for the vote of confidence [emoji106]
When I recommend or make modifications it is almost always to give a better performance but not 'improved speed'. In this case the circuit was limited in its dynamics due to it being at the budget end of the Croft line. Re-figuring the circuit made a good improvement but not in any way introducing other limitations.

I believe Mike was having the issues before any modifications were made :)I was confident that would be the case knowing the quality of your upgrades, but there's always the chance that what most would regard as an upgrade, some people because of their personal taste prefer without, so I just wanted to get to the bottom of that. In this case it sounds like there's a more fundamental issue with the system (according to Mike's taste, room etc at least).

Best to look at the easiest and cheapest to solve potential problems before looking elsewhere. Eg cables and valves, and free trials of other components.

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[Macca]

The VD certainly makes a difference, the edge has gone off screechy rock records, but so has some insight, and clarity. Early days but overall more listenable I think, yet still my speakers emit a nasally sound. I'll give it a week then switch back to the QED and see which I prefer, or whether I need to change something else, can't help thinking overall my system sounds rather flat.

No doubt I'll be pilloried for this but if your priorities are insight and clarity Croft isn't where I would start.

[AJSki2fly]

Well, my amps are Quad 909 + Croft 25, so quite suitable I'd guess, thing is even with those amps and my current speakers - Chario Syntar, my set up still produces quite unpleasant sibilance in the higher frequencies, I just think my listening rooms acoustics is pants and there's nowt I can do about it.

Mike, I have read through this thread and note your issues.

I have looked at each of your components from a general review point of view, IMO neither of your front ends Nottingham TT set up and Mission PCM would normally not produce the type of sound you describe, sibilance and harsh top end. If this is happening when playing vinyl only then it is likely your cartridge/arm is not set up properly and the arm is too high at the rear making the VTA wrong for your cartridge. If it is the same with vinyl or CD on then it is further down the system set up.

The QED XT40 cable have has had good reviews and it is unlikely to be these IMO. So that leaves you the Croft, and Quads, and possibly speakers. Firstly do you get the same issue with both the 909 and the 306? if yes then it is either the Croft, your interconnects or your speakers(unlikely IMO, they are not widely known but are not know for being harsh, I also noted you had the same issue with your previous speakers Raurk).

I do not know much about the Straight Wires, which are you using, if they are silver then they may be introducing a harshness, or emphasised top end.

So if it was me I would put back your QED cables first and then replace the Straight Wires with basic interconnects and see what happens, perhaps some one can lend you two pairs, I have several I can post you if you like.

If the above removes the sibilance you have the culprit, if not then I suspect it will be the Croft causing the harsh top end, one way to prove this is to remove the pre-amp and replace it with temporarily with a simple passive pre-amp(perhaps someone could lend you one), you should get enough voltage out of the CD or Phono stage to drive the Quads will just need a bit more volume. You should then get a clean signal path to the power amps and can judge if the harshness has gone. If not then it is time to move further on down the line, you have already tried speaker cables so possibly borrow/try out some other speakers (but I would say this is last resort).

I hope this helps in some way, having been there myself with systems sounding odd several times it can be frustrating getting to what is the cause.

[Mikeandvan]

I'm not going to pass judgement on Alan's work which is always high quality, but from my experience with "improved" speed and dynamics in general, it often introduces other elements which are not to my taste. Eg. I couldn't live for a week with a Naim system and small bookshelf speakers which were the epitomy of the PRaT movement of the 80s. I've often found that such system changes include tipping the balance from the lower frequencies to the higher for perceived improvements in pace which, while being to many people's tastes, are not to mine. Have you noticed the issues you are having since the Croft was modified or has it always been there?

I would be interested to see some pics of the valves in the Croft. I know Glenn voices his standard amps to match reasonably priced and common valves which assures the buyer of cheap replacements later down the line. I think they used to be JJs a few years ago, then he seems to have moved on to Edicron but don't quote me on that. Sometimes putting better valves in a Croft can make it sound worse due to the voicing that Glenn gives it to match the valves he used at the time.

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The issues were there before and after the work was done, its not only when using the croft as a pre either, the same when I used a passive, the sound is better after Alans mod. Perhaps I need to turn my attention to my sources?

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Laurence, thanks for the vote of confidence :thumbsup:
When I recommend or make modifications it is almost always to give a better performance but not 'improved speed'. In this case the circuit was limited in its dynamics due to it being at the budget end of the Croft line. Re-figuring the circuit made a good improvement but not in any way introducing other limitations.

I believe Mike was having the issues before any modifications were made :)
The improvements were clear from first plug in Alan, not something one can always say.:)

[Mikeandvan]

Mike, I have read through this thread and note your issues.


I hope this helps in some way, having been there myself with systems sounding odd several times it can be frustrating getting to what is the cause.
Thanks Adrian, I'm pretty sure I had the same issue when I tried the 909 with a passive, I've also got new speaker cable now - VD hifi series 4mm, which has tamed things a bit, but sound is a tad soft now. The only thing left to change are the interconnects, I think straight wire are copper, I'll check. I will have a play around with trying the passive again, and the 306, and my tonearm, that does look a tad high at the back. I'm not too clued up on cartridge alignment, but don't think I'm missing anything major, use a gauge when setting up.

[Mikeandvan]

I think a mains regenerator could be my next step, the Project speedbox was quite a step up for my turntable.