Analogue tape versus vinyl

[topoxforddoc]

My master tape collection has been growing steadily over time. This means that I now have quite a few albums on LP and tape. Recently I purchased a production master of Dusty in Memphis. For a bit of fun I compared this 15 IPS master on an Otari MTR12 against my vinyl set up - Platine Verdier with 2 tonearms - Schroeder Reference/Allaerts MC1B and a 1970s vintage Hadccock 228/ JW rebuilt Decca C4E.

I have a 45 RPM Analog Productions copy of Dusty in Memphis, which allowed me to compare the master tape to 2 cart/tonearm combinations side by side. So which cartridge sounded more like the master tape?

The Decca won by a long way. The Allaerts sounded lovely - spacious, tonally richer - some might say very attractive. But the Decca sounded much more like the master tape. OK the Decca was narrower and shallower in sound stage, as well as missing some of the harmonics, which gave the tape more texture. But the Decca was pretty close.

https://i.vgy.me/yit5sc.jpg

https://i.vgy.me/tGe8ML.jpg

[Jimbo]

Thats an interesting evaluation Charlie. I have long been a fan of the Decca cartridge and your comparison shows it still produces an excellent quality of sound, close to the master tape.

What aspects of the Decca do you think help achieve this. Speed, dynamics or something else?

[Patrick Dixon]

I like my Deccas. Maybe the Decca in the Schroeder would be better than the tape ;-)

Looks like your Decca is tail high, or is that just an illusion? I am currently playing with an SC4E in a Hadcock 242 and wondering if it sounded better before I made it more level.

[topoxforddoc]

What aspects of the Decca do you think help achieve this. Speed, dynamics or something else?

Speed and dynamics yes - but also the naturalness of the tonal balance. Some might say that the Decca sound dry, but it's job is to replicate the music.

[topoxforddoc]

I like my Deccas. Maybe the Decca in the Schroeder would be better than the tape ;-)

Looks like your Decca is tail high, or is that just an illusion? I am currently playing with an SC4E in a Hadcock 242 and wondering if it sounded better before I made it more level.

Patrick,

The angle is just an illusion. The VTA has been adjusted by ear over quite a while and it's a tiny bit tail up (but not very much). The wide angle lens on the iPhone exaggerates it.

Charlie

[Barry]

Yes the Mk. IV Deccas were some of the best cartridges Decca made. I have an SC4E, and wouldn't be without it. 'Dusty in Memphis' is a superb recording: a copy of which should be in everyone's collection.

[topoxforddoc]

Yes the Mk. IV Deccas were some of the best cartridges Decca made. I have an SC4E, and wouldn't be without it. 'Dusty in Memphis' is a superb recording: a copy of which should be in everyone's collection.

Barry, it is indeed a fabulous recording. The Analogue Productions 45 rpm reissue is really excellent. That's why I chose it for the comparison, as I felt that it was about as good a LP pressing, as one can get.

[Mike Reed]

Have just spotted this; more for the mention of 'Dusty in Memphis' being such a superb recording. I have a relatively recent reissue on the 'Grey Men With Beards' label, and I can't play it. Terrible (or non-existing?) s.q., and not a brilliant surface either. Actually, it's simply dull; very dull!

Now I suspect that it's the crappy label issue and may be done cheaply by sticking a mic. in front of speakers, but I find it hard to equate this with its superb original, or even derivative re-recordings.

[struth]

Have just spotted this; more for the mention of 'Dusty in Memphis' being such a superb recording. I have a relatively recent reissue on the 'Grey Men With Beards' label, and I can't play it. Terrible (or non-existing?) s.q., and not a brilliant surface either. Actually, it's simply dull; very dull!

Now I suspect that it's the crappy label issue and may be done cheaply by sticking a mic. in front of speakers, but I find it hard to equate this with its superb original, or even derivative re-recordings.

yup thats the one you dont want... its not great is it..... price wise it should be about £60 for the 45rpm AP version.

[Edward]

Assuming it is now out of copyright it would be wonderful if either the tape and/or the 45 RPM album could be digitised.

I'm listening to the 2002 release via Tidal and although sounding ok I think a fair amount of compression has been applied. Listening to it how it was originally released would be cool. :cool:

[Audio Al]

I had to re read your first post as I thought the Decca won , But now see the R2R rules supreme :D

:reel:±±:reel:

[topoxforddoc]

Assuming it is now out of copyright it would be wonderful if either the tape and/or the 45 RPM album could be digitised.

I'm listening to the 2002 release via Tidal and although sounding ok I think a fair amount of compression has been applied. Listening to it how it was originally released would be cool. :cool:

UK music copyright laws are 70 years after the death of the artist and master recordings 50 years after release.

[Bigman80]

Speed and dynamics yes - but also the naturalness of the tonal balance. Some might say that the Decca sound dry, but it's job is to replicate the music.The deccas I tried sounded like they were trying to exhaust my tweeters.

Glad you had better results.

[Patrick Dixon]

The deccas I tried sounded like they were trying to exhaust my tweeters.

Glad you had better results.

You didn't manage to get them set-up right then, or maybe they were knackered.

[Bigman80]

You didn't manage to get them set-up right then, or maybe they were knackered.What, both of them?

Unlikely.

I actually thought the blue was broken. Returned it to the owner and he said "No, it's meant to sound like that" lol.

Sold the Decca Gold, it was worse than the Blue IMO.

I also doubt setup was an issue either. I'm not exactly a novice at it.

Just weren't my cup of tea.

[montesquieu]

What, both of them?

Unlikely.

I actually thought the blue was broken. Returned it to the owner and he said "No, it's meant to sound like that" lol.

Sold the Decca Gold, it was worse than the Blue IMO.

I also doubt setup was an issue either. I'm not exactly a novice at it.

Just weren't my cup of tea.


Agree with you there ... I think it depends what you are listening to, they do have a very dynamic feel great with drums, and push the vocals out at you, but have never persuaded me they throw a convincing 3D soundstage, or present a coherent acoustic space or accurate timbre for more subtle kinds of music.

Tried three times now with different TT/tonearm combinations - really not my thing at all.

[Bigman80]

Agree with you there ... I think it depends what you are listening to, they do have a very dynamic feel great with drums, and push the vocals out at you, but have never persuaded me they throw a convincing 3D soundstage, or present a coherent acoustic space or accurate timbre for more subtle kinds of music.

Tried three times now with different TT/tonearm combinations - really not my thing at all.I tried on two different arms, two different turntables and on all combinations the bass extention just wasn't there.

I'm not talking of richness or anything like that, I'm talking actual frequencies missing.

At the time I had a AT33PTGII which wasnt a bass monster at all but it certainly did bettrr bass by a large margin.

Just didn't like what it did it. Either of them and I gave it three tried and the last effort was a John Wright retipped version so was absolutely mint. Hand delivered and collected from Bridgenorth.

[topoxforddoc]

Tom and Oliver,

I'm sorry that you couldn't get on with Decca. They are very much a Marmite cartridge. But it was a very interesting comparison between the studio tape and the two cart set ups on the same TT with the AP Dusty 45 RPM LP. The studio tape was noticeably better in every way, but the Decca was definitely the better match for tonality, dynamics and accuracy.

Charlie

[montesquieu]

I've always enjoyed hearing tape machines where people have brought them to shows but it's a rabbit hole I refuse to jump down, partly because of the hassle factor of getting and fettling and maintaining a tape machine (or two if you are going to make backup copies, as indeed you really must), but the sheer cost of buying the software and the relative lack of availability of most titles. My listening is somewhat specialised and I doubt whether any of my favourite renaissance, baroque, chamber music or Lieder repertory is available on tape, and I'm pretty sure no-one put out a Bach cantata cycle!

I do have some experience with tape machines, having played with 2-inch 16 track machine when I was a music student, in the university's grandly-named 'electronic music studio' (laying down synthesiser tracks one at a time after setting the sounds up with a patch board, or recording small ensembles), and mixing that down to two tracks. But all the dubbing, splicing, rewinding etc that goes with tape has minimal appeal to me compared to putting on an LP, whatever the notional sonic benefits. It's also quite a fragile medium even compared to vinyl.

[Patrick Dixon]

Well, you should come and listen to mine then - no missing bass for sure! I've had an AT33PTG as well, and it was very thin by comparison.

I've heard Charlie's Decca (briefly) too, and there was nothing wrong with that either!

I think if you haven't heard one work properly, and you think you are 'not a novice at setup', it's easy to give up when it doesn't sound right. Obviously, you just don't know what you are missing! The first one I had sounded horrible, but the dynamics were amazing so I persevered.

[topoxforddoc]

Assuming it is now out of copyright it would be wonderful if either the tape and/or the 45 RPM album could be digitised.

I'm listening to the 2002 release via Tidal and although sounding ok I think a fair amount of compression has been applied. Listening to it how it was originally released would be cool. :cool:

I've archived the Dusty tape digitally at 192k using a Prism Sound Lyra 2 A2D - sounds pretty good :)

[struth]

. My A2D(project ds2) isn't quite at the Lyra, s end of scale, but does a great job of archiving too.